EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Crowd Funded Projects => Topic started by: Ryl on April 09, 2015, 07:20:43 am
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Hi guys !
I follow crowdfunding projects since a moment and was looking for a very precise CNC machine to make my PCBs.
...I found better than that with the BoXZY: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/boxzy/boxzy-rapid-change-fablab-mill-laser-engraver-3d-p/ (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/boxzy/boxzy-rapid-change-fablab-mill-laser-engraver-3d-p/)
This is a fully integrated 3D printer, CNC mill and laser engraver... with a 4-micron precision !
I think it is just a dream for makers, hackers and prototypers.
It is also made to be entirely hackable and upgradable: lots of free ports on the electronics and already a hackpack with an Arduino, a stepper motor and more through an unlocked stretch goal to create anything we want, such as a 4th axis, a solder paste dispenser,...
A fully professionnal CAD tool (Fusion 360 Ultimate, price: $1200/year) is also included for free during one year.
I just wanted to let you know about this great project. :)
Ryl
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I suppose you do realise that when something is described as a dream, its because you have to be asleep to believe in it?
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They didn't shoehorn pick-and-place in there too? Well, that's a deal breaker for me.
Seriously though - if a machine ever tries to do all those things I can guarantee it'll be awful at all of them. How many times has a multi-function machine been promised? How many times has it delivered?
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Boxxy, you again? :o
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I would say it simply not good enough for the price point. Why would you want waste so much money on toy tool that cannot do even one job well? I would better buy some specialised services or buy dedicated machines to do the job right and cheaper.
From material one can read that it cannot mill boards, it will blind you and others around it with laser, it stinks with molten plastic, it takes up much space, it needs adjustments via SW, ...
Just look at milled PCB pictures to get idea of the beast quality you can get out of this machine. Not only it is very slow, quality is also lacking. You have to dick around with it for half day to get PCB that is neither quality milled, nor with solder mask, nor accurate, nor even fast. What is the point in that?
There are few shots of drill - it is a Makita hand tool of sorts. Can anyone identify the model? It is Makita Rt0701C Compact Router. Is it any good for a mill purposes?
I wisk them good luck, but please be realistic.
Boxxy, you again? :o
Was this an earlier project? Can you share the link?
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My dad actually just saw one of these in person the other day, and was pretty impressed by it. Said it was really well made for what it was. They're already gearing up for manufacturing.
I don't see how it isn't feasible. (lightweight) Milling, laser and 3d printing all use pretty much the same XYZ setup, with just different heads. Heck, that's even true with Waterjets (How many makerspaces have one of THOSE?)
I'd call it more of a router than a mill, though, as it won't be that rigid.
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HAH - those PCB results are horrible! 4 micron (.15 mil) precision my ass, that's not even 40 micron (1.5 mil).
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This thing is not that bad if you know what you want and what you are dooing.
It can do do a bit of everything but can not do a single thing well.
The spindle is seriously underpowered (if it is a Makita Rt0701C).
More like a toy then a motor, it will most likely have a good wobble. Tiny drills like wobble!
To call this thing a laser cutter is a joke, that is a 2W diode...
The resolution they claim will be the theoretical resolution of the system, they just ignore backlash and tolerances...
But the target group will be happy with that, not every machine has to work with tight tolerances.
This can only work lightweight, squishy materials, tolerances do not matter...
The only thing that bugs me about this is that they act like this is a precision machine.
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4 micron encoders do not mean anything at all when it is derived from a rotary encoder driving a ball screw on a marginally rigid machine. Real milling machines rely on enormous castings to dampen vibrations. The spindle runout has to be sub-micron. It shows that they are either embellishing or have no idea how the mechanics actually work.
I have owned and operated high-precision CNC machines for many years. I have designed and built micron accurate motion controls for optical positioning systems. This is not going to be even close to that, especially when lateral milling loads are applied and the the spindle runout has the cuting tool wobbling all over the place.
With that said, I do believe you can get some useful work out of it. It is true that is will SUCK at milling, but possible be marginally decent at its other duties. When designing and prototyping, the ultimate machines are not always needed. If your expectations are very low, and you only need a very rough prototype it could be useful. I have been in the manufacturing business for a while and have come to understand all the little details of making a precise and repeatable product. If this machine is there to help work out a concept - great. If you are counting on it to make something that is ready for commercial release, you may be disappointed. The dev team is quite optimistic.
For someone like me that makes a living making things from end-to-end, I see this as one notch up from a toy. Toys are fun and neat, but you cannot make a living with a toy. They seem to be advertising this as the centerpiece of starting a new and exiting business.
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I don't see much point making it do PCB track routing. Results are never good and you don't get PTH or mask or silkscreen.
I would much rather design the PCB and wait the 2 weeks.
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Sorry, I just can't help myself.
BULLSHIT!!!!
4 MICRON resolution? That is Makino (top shelf hundreds of thousands of $$) mold machine territory. Ball screws don't magically give you mythical levels of resolution - the backlash from the ballscrews will be more than 4 microns (and you can never really "program it out") - not to mention a single ballscrew on the opposite side of a thin aluminum panel in a chassis screwed together from thin aluminum panels has no hope in hell of achieving 10 times that real-world resolution. Do you even thrust bearing, bro?
As far as unforseen issues, they say "Our team has the experience, flexibility, and time to fix any unlikely issue. And we're eager to communicate and collaborate with our backers. We’re very experienced in logistics, and we've built solid, active, and tested relationships with component manufacturers".
And what is their experience? According to this article
http://www.post-gazette.com/business/tech-news/2015/03/29/Pittsburgh-Brothers-passion-for-BoXZY-3-D-printing-inspires-backers-to-invest/stories/201503290013 (http://www.post-gazette.com/business/tech-news/2015/03/29/Pittsburgh-Brothers-passion-for-BoXZY-3-D-printing-inspires-backers-to-invest/stories/201503290013)
One of them majored in philosophy and psychology and the other dropped out of a mechanical engineering program. Sure sounds like they have the experience to "fix any unlikely issue" (nothing ever goes sideways in KS projects, after all) :palm:
And their laser cutter is a 2W *blue* laser? For cutting/engraving? That's just... no comment.
I have no doubt they can produce "a" device for the price they are asking. But something that can meet the claims being made? Abso-f*cking-lutely not.
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I don't see how it isn't feasible. (lightweight) Milling, laser and 3d printing all use pretty much the same XYZ setup, with just different heads. Heck, that's even true with Waterjets (How many makerspaces have one of THOSE?)
And that is what will cause this project to go off the rails.
People think "XYZ motion is easy! I can make...
-PCB miller
-Pick and place
-CNC milling machine
-3D printer
-Laser engraver
-Waterjet (now)
-Router
-Engraver
etc, etc, etc.
But all those devices are just different enough such that when you try to combine them, the results suck. "CNC milling" with a freakin' $99 Makita palm-sized router? No wonder they mention 0.050" depth of cut in brass (and the finish looks like shit).
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There is no question the quality will be marginal, but someone could hack out some basic parts that could be useful in prototyping. Like I said, your expectations need to be very low and it will be fine. For milling, you have to have a way to cool the cutting tool and manage the chips. In this case, it is a VERY weak machine mechanically so you have to take extremely light cuts. In addition to taking forever to mill something, it will create very fine chips and dust that will get into every tiny area of the machine.
I have a 45 watt C02 Epilog laser that operates at about 10 microns which is just enough to get engraving and lite cutting of plastics and thin wood. A 2 watt visible diode will do little more than blind you I think. Low power and the wrong wavelength.
They got north of 7 figures, so who cares.
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Is the OP involved in this programmable coffee stirrer, if so then he or she should declare it, we never see a dial test indicator anywhere near these things, I think that you blokes call them a last word, I wonder why.
Show me a less than 4 micron collet alone on that machine and I will show you a big wad of cash, sick to death of these bullshit meccano set's.
Nice review Corporate666........ :-+
Muttley
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people like to translate negatively. 4 micron is probably the resolution of the stepper movement, 4 micron is theoritically possible. but... we usually care of the byproduct of it ie the pcb, 3dprintout, engraving wood or aluminium.... claim of engraving a thick aluminium maybe too much, wood maybe. there will be few mechanical interventions that makes 4 micron stepper resolution cant reach the product practically. but i dont see there is point to rule this out bluntly. negative comments about producing not good pcb? try to engrave it by hand which is much better? which is a toy? your hand? or the machine? you want 4 micron output? very high resolution, rigid and robust? loan from bank 7 digits and lets talk. the kickstarter gained million, good luck!
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people like to translate negatively. 4 micron is probably the resolution of the stepper movement, 4 micron is theoritically possible. but...
That doesn't make it OK. If someone is going to claim one part of their system as "it's resolution", then why not claim it has 0.00001 micron resolution because the fastest discrete pulse your MCU can trigger would work out to 0.00001 micron of movement? If the claims don't need to be actually true, then where is the limit?
we usually care of the byproduct of it ie the pcb, 3dprintout, engraving wood or aluminium.... claim of engraving a thick aluminium maybe too much, wood maybe. there will be few mechanical interventions that makes 4 micron stepper resolution cant reach the product practically. but i dont see there is point to rule this out bluntly.
So the fact that they are claiming superior resolution to million-dollar super-accurate mold making machines using a Makita mini-router isn't a reason to rule it out bluntly? People can claim anything they like. It's theoretically possible for me to buy enough Estes hobby rocket engines to match the thrust of the Apollo rocket... does that mean one cannot rule out the feasibility of my moon mission using Estes rockets?
negative comments about producing not good pcb? try to engrave it by hand which is much better? which is a toy? your hand? or the machine? you want 4 micron output? very high resolution, rigid and robust? loan from bank 7 digits and lets talk. the kickstarter gained million, good luck!
Just because something isn't the worst thing in the world doesn't mean it's not a bad thing or even a good thing. I mean... I'd rather get punched in the face rather than shot in the face... but that doesn't mean being punched in the face is as good as a lap dance from Jennifer Lawrence.
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When PocketNC says they can do 5 micron (on soft materials presumably) I believe them ... they have videos showing their spindle runout and their stages obviously have structural rigidity.
In this case, not so much.
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From my direct measurements of structural rigidity of similar devices taken with a Mitutoyo dial indicator I expect this device to flex for about 20 microns doring normal operation. Light cube constructions like this are not suitable for high precision milling.
Even a 40W CO2 laser cutter is too weak even for cutting cardboard. Due to low power it requires slow movement and thus overheats the area near the cut. A 2W laser is way too weak to do anything useful. And these cheap 2W blue lasers have multiple spatial modes and thus can't be focused well.
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considering milling ... repeatable resolution for such a weak construction is in the 50-100 micron range for soft materials , milling metals is nearly impossible with such a weak body and weak steppers - unless you cut in 25-50 micron layers. so the whole 4 micron claim is a fairy tale.
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Even a 40W CO2 laser cutter is too weak even for cutting cardboard. Due to low power it requires slow movement and thus overheats the area near the cut. A 2W laser is way too weak to do anything useful. And these cheap 2W blue lasers have multiple spatial modes and thus can't be focused well.
The 40w CO2 laser in my Epilog cuts 1/4" Acrylic and hardboard all the time - with ease.
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I don't see much point making it do PCB track routing. Results are never good and you don't get PTH or mask or silkscreen.
I would much rather design the PCB and wait the 2 weeks.
Same here. Plus when you wait the two weeks, you get soldermask, silkscreen, plated-through vias, all that good stuff.
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I don't see much point making it do PCB track routing. Results are never good and you don't get PTH or mask or silkscreen.
I would much rather design the PCB and wait the 2 weeks.
PCB routing is utterly stupid but etching your own PCBs is simetimes the only viable solution when you do not have a gold shitting donkey.
The keyword is turn around time and prototyping.
I can spend 80 Euros and will have the project finished in 1.5 months.
I can spend 30 Euros and be done in 3 months.
I can spend 150 Euros and be done in two weeks.
If i do it at home i will have the finished PCB in 3 weeks at 40 Euros or 6 weeks at 15 euros.
And if i do not need soldermask and double sidet i will be done in one day and 5 euros in.
Personal experience, real live numbers, no bullshit. Your reality may differ.
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I don't see much point making it do PCB track routing. Results are never good and you don't get PTH or mask or silkscreen.
I would much rather design the PCB and wait the 2 weeks.
PCB routing is utterly stupid but etching your own PCBs is simetimes the only viable solution when you do not have a gold shitting donkey.
The keyword is turn around time and prototyping.
I can spend 80 Euros and will have the project finished in 1.5 months.
I can spend 30 Euros and be done in 3 months.
I can spend 150 Euros and be done in two weeks.
If i do it at home i will have the finished PCB in 3 weeks at 40 Euros or 6 weeks at 15 euros.
And if i do not need soldermask and double sidet i will be done in one day and 5 euros in.
Personal experience, real live numbers, no bullshit. Your reality may differ.
Come back to me when you can mill or etch a four- (or more) layer board.
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date=1429632489]
Come back to me when you can mill or etch a four- (or more) layer board.
Having a bit of a problem understanding "sometimes", eh? :)
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Totally agree with you words mate and i want to add on boXZY ould just carve wood or soft material but now with the help of technology, we can carve on anything you would like. That is a real comfort for people who want to carve metal or any other material. Laser engraving has made everything much easier and the comfort we get with these small-sized CNC is truly amazing. These machines for laser engraving are available in small sizes to easily place them anywhere you want.
They have made it easier for anyone to work on engraving at the comfort of your home with its desktop fitting machines. It is truly a blessing for those people who want to start engraving but do not have a proper workshop. Such people can purchase these machines from BoXZY and start working from their home and easily make a living or be a hobby woodworker.
And buying a boxzy can be challenging as i faced but i found a article which has complete Boxzy CNC review (https://theedgecutter.com/boxzy-cnc-review/) which helps me in buying a good Boxzy cnc machine which is blessing for me.
You also need to be extra protective while buying a boxzy cnc machine as it is a expensive stuff so done research about it before making a decision
Best regards ,
Daren
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I don't see much point making it do PCB track routing. Results are never good and you don't get PTH or mask or silkscreen.
I would much rather design the PCB and wait the 2 weeks.
PCB routing is utterly stupid but etching your own PCBs is simetimes the only viable solution when you do not have a gold shitting donkey.
The keyword is turn around time and prototyping.
I can spend 80 Euros and will have the project finished in 1.5 months.
I can spend 30 Euros and be done in 3 months.
I can spend 150 Euros and be done in two weeks.
If i do it at home i will have the finished PCB in 3 weeks at 40 Euros or 6 weeks at 15 euros.
And if i do not need soldermask and double sidet i will be done in one day and 5 euros in.
Personal experience, real live numbers, no bullshit. Your reality may differ.
Aisler makes decent PCBs with 2 days turnaround. Shipped for free from Germany. Why would anyone in (not only) Germany bothered with doing PCBs at home?
Believe or not, I used to make a lot of DIY PCBs. Including the solder mask. Nowadays, It does not make any financial sense. I submit my data on Friday and get the PCB at my desk on Thursday.
6PCBs 3x2cm for 14 eur. I paid more for Steckerlfisch today.
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Aisler makes decent PCBs with 2 days turnaround. Shipped for free from Germany. Why would anyone in (not only) Germany bothered with doing PCBs at home?
Believe or not, I used to make a lot of DIY PCBs. Including the solder mask. Nowadays, It does not make any financial sense. I submit my data on Friday and get the PCB at my desk on Thursday.
6PCBs 3x2cm for 14 eur. I paid more for Steckerlfisch today.
Aisler probably did not exist in 2015... and 3x2cm for EUR14 is still some price, if some mistake/correction, they are good EUR2 keychains.
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And that is what will cause this project to go off the rails.
People think "XYZ motion is easy! I can make...
Actually the motion these days is easy. It is getting the rest of the machine to cooperate that is hard.
-PCB miller
-Pick and place
-CNC milling machine
-3D printer
-Laser engraver
-Waterjet (now)
-Router
-Engraver
etc, etc, etc.
But all those devices are just different enough such that when you try to combine them, the results suck.
Yes, the problem here is that people don't understand the mechanical implication. Somebody posted pictures above that highlight just how bad this machine is.
"CNC milling" with a freakin' $99 Makita palm-sized router? No wonder they mention 0.050" depth of cut in brass (and the finish looks like shit).
I'm not event sure this machine would be good enough for front panel engraving of say 0.010". It is surprising how well the human eye can pick up minute errors in a tool path.
As a side note I spent years of my career working on custom diamond turning machines and there we had to keep tolerances sometimes under 2 microns. That isn't easy if the machine is running a 10 second cycle time 24 hours a day.
It is interesting because I believe the basic idea of this style machine came from some kids out of MIT. The problem is that they apparently missed some basic machine design concepts such as the need for stiffness in any machine that has to deal with reaction forces.
If anybody is thinking about buying a small router or making one, the site: CNCZONE has a great section dedicate to building such machines. There are ways to DIY a small router that doesn't result in complete crap.
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Even if it was only a PCB mill I'd avoid it, let alone a combination of 5 other things. As part of a makerspace I ran an LPKF PCB mill for awhile, an expensive one-function PCB mill with all the whistles, and even that gave fairly inconsistent results that I could rarely justify using it. It costs $20 with shipping to get 10 PCBs from China in a week and a half. If you're not using unusual or expensive materials (Rogers for RF, etc) or doing strange antenna patterns that cheap fabs couldn't do, it just didn't make sense.
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This is definitely a case of a mechanical engineering dropout(almost certainly due to it being too hard) picking up a couple ballscrews and linear rods, realizing they are heavier than plastic, and thinking: "Well these seem rigid enough, why can't I mill with it?".
What the dropout doesn't realize is that cutting forces are not only orders of magnitude higher than he thinks, but all components always imperfect and on top of rigidity issues you also get accuracy/backlash/tolerance issues.
The way real 4 micron machines do it is as follows:
- Get some cast iron or machine-specific epoxy granite
- Triple that amount
- No, triple it again
- Bolt that to a 20cm thick reinforced concrete pad
- Embed a bunch of channels for heat transferring fluid into the base and all large moving parts
- Attach a high heat capacity chiller-heater combo to keep the entire machine at a set point(usually 1-2C lower than ambient)
- Place very oversized, over-rated components on all linear axes(ballscrews, linear rails, all rated at several hundred kN higher than your estimated loads)
- Preload the hell out of them(impossible without rigidity)
- Place linear encoders directly on the translating frames, not at the input(which already has encoders, because you're using very well tuned AC servos)
- Spend a few months in R&D tuning the several control loops
- Design, build, and install a zero-tolerance preloaded spindle(which results in ~1-2um of tool TIR, never perfect)
Congratulations. Now your machine starts at $1 000 000 with no options like tool carousels, work piece pallet systems, etc. You'll want those, too, because you just built a machine that needs to be running 24/7/365 to pay for itself in just a few short years, and downtime means bleeding money.
I'm willing to bet $100k of their money that you could cause 100um of deflection by pressing on the collet end with your pinkie finger.
A few other problems:
- It's too slow for 3D printing. You need fast retracts and rapid moves for 3D printed parts to look clean - even for the simple reason of ooze, which is now a standard feed-forward calculation option in most slicers. Also part cooling. Not to mention printing slow means you're... printing slow, and any cheap $200 kit can print faster and cleaner.
- I don't see any protection for that 2W laser, which on top of being multimode and hard to focus, as mentioned earlier, is extremely dangerous optically. So on top of being near useless(maybe for burning letters into leather or something), a single unlucky reflection of a slightly shiny surface can result in permanent, irreparable blindness. The reason cheap CO2 laser cutters get away with large transparent windows is simply because polycarbonate is opaque to 10.6um light.
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I'm willing to bet $100k of their money that you could cause 100um of deflection by pressing on the collet end with your pinkie finger.
While I agree with you about the likely amount of deflection, it is traditional to put your money where your mouth is, not someone else's. :)
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While I agree with you about the likely amount of deflection, it is traditional to put your money where your mouth is, not someone else's. :)
By the time the campaign ends neither of us is going to have that much money :P
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I totally agree with you. this is not a bad. :D