Poll

Will they make it?

Yes
7 (10.3%)
Yes, but the printer will be a heap of crap
28 (41.2%)
No
33 (48.5%)

Total Members Voted: 66

Author Topic: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179  (Read 30374 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MadModder

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • Country: se
    • The Mad Modders
Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« on: April 07, 2015, 07:33:06 pm »
I'm backing this https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tiko3d/tiko-the-unibody-3d-printer
And they're well over $1,000,000 in 8 days.
Some says it's too good to be true with a printer with that precision at that price. I don't know...
They have a proprietary built in slicer, with a web interface as I understand. As of now they even got a proprietary branch of g-code they've created. It's not open anything, and the only part that apparently is user repairable (by changing it) is the nozzle.
It isn't particularly expensive for what they promise. Just have to wait for this year to end and check it out if it's more than just promises. :D
What do you think?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 07:35:03 pm by MadModder »
 

Online Fraser

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8507
  • Country: gb
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2015, 08:32:55 pm »
The design uses an exotic and complex X-Y-Z extruder support assembly. Even if initially accurate you have to consider how long its alignment will last if wear occurs. I would love a 3D printer but this does look a little too good to be possible at the price point. A possible case of nice idea, and complex solution at a simpler more basic design price. Hmmm hope it works out for you but I have to wonder about the end products true capability and life expectancy.

Aurora
 

Offline Corporate666

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2004
  • Country: us
  • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2015, 08:36:26 pm »
I'm backing this https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/tiko3d/tiko-the-unibody-3d-printer
And they're well over $1,000,000 in 8 days.
Some says it's too good to be true with a printer with that precision at that price. I don't know...
They have a proprietary built in slicer, with a web interface as I understand. As of now they even got a proprietary branch of g-code they've created. It's not open anything, and the only part that apparently is user repairable (by changing it) is the nozzle.
It isn't particularly expensive for what they promise. Just have to wait for this year to end and check it out if it's more than just promises. :D
What do you think?

I think it will be interesting to watch, and I predict it will go off the rails rather quickly after the delivery date comes and goes.

$179 for everything that goes into a 3D printer (motors, control, housing, mechanicals) and this one also supports Wifi is just such a low amount that the cost cutting that goes into this thing must be mind blowing.

And a team of 3 young folks who don't seem to have any experience - what could go wrong?

Bookmarked!
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Online ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5839
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2015, 01:57:39 am »
I predict fail. And also
Quote
NOTE: Don't worry, we abandoned the above pictured NEMA-14’s ages ago. They were expensive, heavy, and noisy. Tiko now uses a completely different type of motor that has proven far more suitable, and you wouldn’t believe how little it costs. This alone had a major impact on our pricing.
I'd like to know what this magical motor is.

I just googled "kickstarter 3d printer" and checked out projects from the first page of results. All are either not finished or quite a bit overdue and no good delivery timeline.
Alex
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 877
  • Country: gb
  • Embedded stuff
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2015, 09:32:06 am »
This has the hallmarks of a classic failure.

- young team, no track record
- a lot of "too good to be true" marketing woo
- lots of new technologies to develop
- very low price point
- a massively oversubscribed campaign

The mistake made with Kickstarter's is mainly the eye-catching "loss leader" low price, and subsequent high delivery target. The normal plan is to start with small volumes, high prices selling to early adopters, then ramp into mass production and lower prices.

Crowdsourcing turns that backwards, and makes it 10 times more difficult. The worst case it turns into a Ponzi scheme where they need new orders to pay for the development of earlier orders, because they ran way over budget.

Tiko looks like a Makibox all over again. There is so much hype in the glossy marketing it almost looks like a con.
Bob
"All you said is just a bunch of opinions."
 

Offline MadModder

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • Country: se
    • The Mad Modders
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2015, 01:09:26 pm »
Yes, I expect this to be quite a bit delayed. There is no chance in **** that they will be able to ship 3000 units in november, 3000 in december, and I don't know how many in january. I say add six months to that.
And the "magical" motor they have decided on is 28BYJ-48, http://robocraft.ru/files/datasheet/28BYJ-48.pdf
5.625° step angle, and 64:1 gear ratio. Slow as a sloth. :D
And they say the backlash is not an issue.
But the thing kinda looks nice on the desk... ;)

The wear on the arms, the ball joints to be exact, may be an issue faster than one thinks since those parts are plastic. I've been thinking about maybe put a drop from a teflon spray lube can on each ball joint. That maybe will extend the lifespan somewhat.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 01:20:24 pm by MadModder »
 

Offline KedasProbe

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 502
  • Country: be
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2015, 01:29:58 pm »
The example they show doesn't look like it can be printed without support material.
This would make the shown examples already impossible.
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11993
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2015, 01:34:41 pm »
I saw this - using an outer extrusion is interesting and can potentially solve quite a few problems. Not clear if it's metal or plastic.
However I found the video a bit too slick... sounded like an infomercial  - maybe that's just the Americanness..
It's definitely too cheap - $199, maybe even $249  wouldn't have g\\lost that many backers.
I also have serious reservations about accuracy, especially over time.
They seem to be cagey about releasing a video showing realtime speed.
Some of their replies to comments indicate a bit of a clue shortage about what experienced 3D printer users want, and whet the issues are.

They have a very plausible looking PCB, but it's pictured next to a toy soldering iron and plumbing-grade solder...

One mistake is you can't see the filament, so don't know how much is left or what type is loaded - needs to have a window (or just make the whole top from clear polycarb?)

They are doing slicing in the cloud.... I can see potential issues if they start tweaking the algorithm over time so stuff that used to print OK later fails...

I'm putting it at about 50/50 at the moment to deliver something plausible, and maybe 75% chance that speed and/or accuracy will be disappointing.

 

« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 01:51:24 pm by mikeselectricstuff »
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline MadModder

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • Country: se
    • The Mad Modders
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2015, 02:01:11 pm »
This is a real time 2 hours print:


I don't know if this is the first prototype with the Nema motors.

Please note how smooth and graceful the hotend descends into view... haha!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 02:05:08 pm by MadModder »
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29665
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2015, 02:12:02 pm »
I think it will be interesting to watch, and I predict it will go off the rails rather quickly after the delivery date comes and goes.
$179 for everything that goes into a 3D printer (motors, control, housing, mechanicals) and this one also supports Wifi is just such a low amount that the cost cutting that goes into this thing must be mind blowing.
And a team of 3 young folks who don't seem to have any experience - what could go wrong?

Someone has done the math:
http://www.inside3dp.com/low-cost-3d-printers-crowdfunding-suicide/
 

Offline Rasz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2273
  • Country: 00
    • My random blog.
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2015, 05:19:26 pm »
u ni booty!!! peace!!!1 omg what a bunch of BS.

I liked their "this is where we need your help" standard template  white yellow AND black PR video, must of cost $30K easily, probably done by one of those 'we make KS videos only' companies.

Their excruder couldnt keep alignment even during that video, first shot you can see it lowering while SHAKING the head good couple of milimeters. and ZOMG ZE CLOWD!!!

Price point is totally realistic if your intention is to work for free, or if you spin up chinese factory making couple of thousands per week.
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 

Offline MadModder

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 91
  • Country: se
    • The Mad Modders
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2015, 06:33:40 pm »
You're right about the chinese factory, and they mentioned something about a couple of thousands extruded chassis per month. So, yeah....
Come on, it'll be fun to see where this leads! If it leads to me getting something useful delivered by the postal service in about a year or so that is.
 

Online blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12304
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2015, 07:01:02 pm »
I just backed it, seems to be a good deal, maybe too good to be true. Anyway, even it is not as accurate as stated, it could be a good cheap toy to tinker with.

Also the shipping anywhere is handy for me, because I am not sure if I will go back to China or stay in the States then.
 

Online janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2909
  • Country: fr
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2015, 10:16:34 pm »
Yes, I expect this to be quite a bit delayed. There is no chance in **** that they will be able to ship 3000 units in november, 3000 in december, and I don't know how many in january. I say add six months to that.
And the "magical" motor they have decided on is 28BYJ-48, http://robocraft.ru/files/datasheet/28BYJ-48.pdf
5.625° step angle, and 64:1 gear ratio. Slow as a sloth. :D
And they say the backlash is not an issue.
But the thing kinda looks nice on the desk... ;)

The wear on the arms, the ball joints to be exact, may be an issue faster than one thinks since those parts are plastic. I've been thinking about maybe put a drop from a teflon spray lube can on each ball joint. That maybe will extend the lifespan somewhat.

Uff, you mean the $2 motors from AliExpress?
http://www.jangeox.be/2013/10/stepper-motor-28byj-48_25.html

That's seriously crazy thing to use in a 3D printer - they are weak, there is a lot backlash due to the gearing and they are also slow. Of course, they are 10x cheaper than a NEMA motor, important for their price point, I guess.

If they are going to use these, I am not having a lot of hope for this machine - especially a delta, where the motors are loaded quite a bit, having to hold the entire weight of the extruder.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11993
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2015, 10:34:02 pm »

If they are going to use these, I am not having a lot of hope for this machine - especially a delta, where the motors are loaded quite a bit, having to hold the entire weight of the extruder.
Yeah but maybe the weight will take care of the backlash....
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Corporate666

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2004
  • Country: us
  • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2015, 11:37:24 pm »
I think it will be interesting to watch, and I predict it will go off the rails rather quickly after the delivery date comes and goes.
$179 for everything that goes into a 3D printer (motors, control, housing, mechanicals) and this one also supports Wifi is just such a low amount that the cost cutting that goes into this thing must be mind blowing.
And a team of 3 young folks who don't seem to have any experience - what could go wrong?

Someone has done the math:
http://www.inside3dp.com/low-cost-3d-printers-crowdfunding-suicide/

That's a good article, I like it.

In general, one of the fundamental tenets of business is that a startup whose competitive advantage is price *will* fail.  The time you need fatter margins is when you're starting out and don't have the hindsight that years of mistakes give you, nor do you have established credit lines, supplier relationships or the ability to execute a plan perfectly.  All the missteps cost money, and missteps are much more prevalent in startups.

Being the low cost supplier is saying "We have a great idea for a business - we'll make less profit than anyone else, even the people who aren't currently making a profit, but we'll be so popular we'll make it up on volume!"  :-DD
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Online ehughes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 359
  • Country: us
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2015, 01:12:03 am »
Well... A sucker born every minute.

The schedule is simply ridiculous.    You don't go through reliability testing to full production in 4 weeks....     By the way it is written, they do not have a working unit.   Nor do they have any real electronics designed and built.   There is a reason the board is not populated.....

That and a couple weeks between regulatory testing and production shipment??

Not to mention that they have zero margin....

This statement scares me:

Quote
. Tiko's manufacturing cost is remarkably low, so while $179 might make some companies bite their nails, we don't sweat it.

You don't have a functional unit with electronics.  There is no way to know what it will to manufacture in volume!   
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 01:16:19 am by ehughes »
 

Online Mechatrommer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9075
  • Country: my
  • reassessing directives...
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2015, 02:53:48 am »
I think it will be interesting to watch, and I predict it will go off the rails rather quickly after the delivery date comes and goes.
$179 for everything that goes into a 3D printer (motors, control, housing, mechanicals) and this one also supports Wifi is just such a low amount that the cost cutting that goes into this thing must be mind blowing.
And a team of 3 young folks who don't seem to have any experience - what could go wrong?
Someone has done the math:
http://www.inside3dp.com/low-cost-3d-printers-crowdfunding-suicide/
That's a good article, I like it.
and this delta trying to be $1 cheaper. the calculation is based on standard nema stepper and rigid body for larger unit. if the young folks push things to the limit such as smaller steppers, exosceleton plastic construction or just the right thickness/amount of metal working, my suspicion this is not impossible. low grade consumers inkjet has 2 steppers, motors,  plethora of big/small components mechanism, nanoscale ink "extruder", a robust smps and an fpga and cost $50 only. but... extraordinary claim needs extraordinary faith.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 02:56:21 am by Mechatrommer »
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Online sleemanj

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2388
  • Country: nz
  • Professional tightwad.
    • The electronics hobby components I sell.
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2015, 04:44:08 am »
low grade consumers inkjet has 2 steppers, motors,  plethora of big/small components mechanism, nanoscale ink "extruder", a robust smps and an fpga and cost $50 only

1. steppers are typically only used in the scan head these days, a tiny flat geared one, all the other motors in typical inkjets these days are standard DC motors with an optical encoder strip/disk
2. consumer printers are manufactured in massive quantities, with volume comes savings
3. consumer printers are loss-leaders for ink sales, likely sold below manufacturing cost, this has been known for a long long time (and some 3d printers are trying to do the same now)


As for this Tiko printer.  The price is cheap but I do think it should be possible to sell a 3d printer that gives reasonable results profitably for $200 US or less (certainly that's the point at which I would buy one), but only if in a relatively large scale production.  However I don't think that THESE guys can do it, and I don't think that THIS printer is going to give good results, it's conceivable that they are doing some seriously nifty stuff to get good results out of very mediocre components (those steppers  :wtf:) but... extraordinary claims and all that.
~~~
EEVBlog Members - get yourself 10% discount off all my electronic components for sale just use the Buy Direct links and use Coupon Code "eevblog" during checkout.  Shipping from New Zealand, international orders welcome :-)
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29665
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2015, 05:43:36 am »
However I found the video a bit too slick... sounded like an infomercial  - maybe that's just the Americanness..

It's what they teach you at the startup incubator, of which this project is an alumni.

Quote
I'm putting it at about 50/50 at the moment to deliver something plausible, and maybe 75% chance that speed and/or accuracy will be disappointing.

That's about my estimate too.
 

Offline pickle9000

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2132
  • Country: ca
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2015, 06:30:40 am »
Well if it works out you can bet there will be a Chinese clone 5 days later for 25 bucks less and free shipping on ebay. So I say good luck to them.

If the majority of the parts are mass produced plastic, and assembled in China then you possibly could do it, but making 6 bucks per unit seems hardly worth it.
 

Offline Zef

  • Newbie
  • Posts: 4
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2015, 08:42:25 am »
They did a reddit AMA (Ask Me Anything) where they stated their COGS was only $70.  I know little about such things but is that even possible?  Would that be the cost of the raw components alone?  A link to that comment:

http://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/318pu4/tiko_3d_ama_we_are_tiko_3d_and_were_on/cpzga0f

The entire AMA is here:

http://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/318pu4/tiko_3d_ama_we_are_tiko_3d_and_were_on/

EDIT: Actually they mention that the $70 COGS figure includes labour and packaging (but not shipping).   :-//
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 08:50:00 am by Zef »
 

Online ehughes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 359
  • Country: us
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2015, 12:06:16 pm »
I am not sure there is a business case for a low margin "printer for everyone". 

1.)   Most consumers have a hard enough time getting a "2d"printer working
2.)   Most consumers simply have no ability to produce 3d models that are useful. (or printable on a low end machine)
3.)   Every sub-3k printer I have seen requires a lot of care and feeding.     They are mostly junk.   Your average soccer mom is not going to  dick with a 3d printer extruder problem.
4.) Printers that cannot print support produce 90% junk.   The consumer market simply doesn't not understand the physics of FDM.     Yes, it will be good for producing warped Yoda heads but little else.
4.)  A $70 build cost assumes what volumes?  100k?   I think there volume estimates are a bit high.      There isn't enough margin to pay themselves and their employees reasonably.
5.)  2d Printers only achieve the costs they do through mass manufacture and extreme subsidies through printer ink sales.
6.)   Related to #3,   a cheap BOM means it will be a junk assembly.     This may lead to a downward spiral in perception...   
7.)   Very few businesses win the race to the bottom.

I for one am tired of cheap junk.    This only further enables the cheap junk, throw away culture.....     

In the end, I think it will be a good experience in the school of hard knocks for the kids making this but I don't expect it to meet most of their goals.   I find the design of the machine interesting  but the business model horrific.   

 
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29665
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2015, 12:42:01 pm »
but making 6 bucks per unit seems hardly worth it.

I wouldn't get out of bed for 6 bucks a unit, with apologies to Linda Evangelista.
 

Online Fraser

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8507
  • Country: gb
Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2015, 12:49:48 pm »
I only have to watch the UK TV program called Dragons Den to see some well intentioned people trying to produce products that either have no true market or are massively over valued. Many also have no clue about the costs that they face when moving from an idea to full production. Most are not scammers, just a little naive and even if they do produce a decent design they are vulnerable to the harsh world of commercial production including clones and outright theft of designs.

Good luck to them but I have to agree. A more expensive, well sorted design would be a more sensible approach rather than building down to a cost that looks fanciful to those who seem to know more about this than me.

Oh and cheap motors are a recipe for disaster. Making an electronics design down to a price is very different to trying the same strategy with mechanical components such as chassis's, bearings, motors and gearboxes. So much more can go wrong.

Aurora
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf