Poll

Will they make it?

Yes
7 (10.3%)
Yes, but the printer will be a heap of crap
28 (41.2%)
No
33 (48.5%)

Total Members Voted: 66

Author Topic: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179  (Read 30446 times)

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Offline Corporate666

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2015, 03:18:35 pm »
We should start a pool.

I say they never deliver.  They get funded and announce they are "just finalizing" some things... but their margin per unit is nothing (or, more likely, negative) and they burn through the $$$ with travel and salaries and wind up not having enough to manufacture.  I also predict this will not be said directly... they will just fizzle out and disappear.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline MadModder

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2015, 05:37:36 pm »
I added a poll.

And these guys look pretty young, so they may still go to school, I don't know, college, university? And living off of their parents, and this is their final project in bussiness class or something. :D
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 05:47:47 pm by MadModder »
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2015, 08:17:52 pm »

If they are going to use these, I am not having a lot of hope for this machine - especially a delta, where the motors are loaded quite a bit, having to hold the entire weight of the extruder.
Yeah but maybe the weight will take care of the backlash....

Or simply make the printer commit suicide after the first print - the motor gears are all plastic (nicely visible in the blog post I linked before) and they seem to want to use plastic (3d printed?) gearing also on the vertical rails (racks and pinions). They are certainly not going to be able to afford machined rack and pinion sets at that price point.

This is going to be either a very expensive failure or they deliver machines that will be unusable and fall apart after the first attempt to use them.

 

Offline Towger

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2015, 10:37:10 pm »
Let's not forget the free shipping to anywhere in the world.... The photos show a larger unit than the image with the dimensions.  It was not clear if this size was the max print size or the unit size. In any event by the time kickstarter take their cut and international shipping is paid for for half the units...
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2015, 11:03:27 pm »
Let's not forget the free shipping to anywhere in the world.... The photos show a larger unit than the image with the dimensions.  It was not clear if this size was the max print size or the unit size. In any event by the time kickstarter take their cut and international shipping is paid for for half the units...

As the team introduction says, it is gonna be made in China. Our government pays most of the shipping cost, and the company pays only less than $10 to ship it to most places worldwide.

Also, for what I know, if only BOM is considered, $179 can give you a large margin. If you have even went to Shenzhen, you will know how cheap things can go in bulk.

IMHO, if made in large quantity, 3D printers can go down to the price inkjets can go.
 

Offline Zef

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2015, 11:14:59 pm »
Let's not forget the free shipping to anywhere in the world....

It's not free shipping.  They said this will be calculated later and will cap at $65. 
 

Offline MadModder

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2015, 08:42:46 am »
Exactly. It only says it can be shipped to anywhere in the world.
Hmm... This may be a way to bring in som last minute fundings actually. Set a slightly higher shipping fee than needed. Not very nice, but it has been done before.

This is a disassembly of the cheap motor:
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 08:51:16 am by MadModder »
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2015, 09:53:07 am »
This is a disassembly of the cheap motor:

I don't know what those motors were designed for, but they seem to be a toy for kids. Despite all the glossy marketing, just this one thing tells me Tiko 3D don't have a clue what they are doing.

I see a lot of comments from people saying, "it was cheap, so I backed it". That seems to be the key to a successful Kickstarter scam, price it so low people won't mind losing the money. In fraud circles, that is like the "salami method".
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Offline MadModder

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2015, 10:30:32 am »
Yes that is one possible salami. But time will tell.

This motor is designed to be very cheap and used in cheap products that might not need a high precision positioning. ;)
And this kind of unipolar stepper motors are very very weak, so a gear box is highly needed.
But because of the construction of the printer, the motors are sitting on the sleds and thus moving themselves upp and down plus the actuating arms and nozzle assembly so the total weight might actually eliminate all problems with backlash at these low speeds. However, the plastic bearing/sleeve is going to wear down relatively quickly I think.

The Tiko 3D is designed to be easy to use by everyone, and they're aming for a"file->print" functionality as the say, not having to worry about anything else.
Priced like a toy, components for a toy, and looks like a toy. But hey, I like electronic toys.  ;D
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2015, 03:45:00 pm »
If they have a toy company on board for design and assembly I'd be more inclined to think they can do it. A $300.00 3d printing toy.
 

Offline Towger

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2015, 04:10:38 pm »
Quote from: blueskull
If you have even went to Shenzhen, you will know how cheap things can go in bulk.

I backed the Plugaway. It was based in China with most of the team Chinese and they still managed to blow all the money.
 

Offline MadModder

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2015, 05:57:51 pm »
Even in China, quality products are not cheap. I backed this "Tool pen" made in Taiwan. 60 bucks for a new kind of bits screwdriver, with 22 bits. The campaign went flawlessly, hitting every point in the time plan, and shipped on time. They're now running a second kickstarter with a smaller tool pen, with precision bits. I think every old backer is backing this one also. It reached the goal efter one hour.
A bad chinese copy is generally cheap as a sardinian, but creating an original product there and still have it cheap? No.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2015, 06:16:41 pm »
Even in China, quality products are not cheap. I backed this "Tool pen" made in Taiwan. 60 bucks for a new kind of bits screwdriver, with 22 bits. The campaign went flawlessly, hitting every point in the time plan, and shipped on time. They're now running a second kickstarter with a smaller tool pen, with precision bits. I think every old backer is backing this one also. It reached the goal efter one hour.
A bad chinese copy is generally cheap as a sardinian, but creating an original product there and still have it cheap? No.

Made in China does not need to mean cheap, but certainly can mean high quality at low cost. The trick is where to pinch your pennies. With this item if the goal is a consumer product how many cycles will you expect it to run before failure, will replacements parts be available, how low can the resolution / backlash be?

If your selling this as an "Easy Bake Oven" for kids it could be a very large market. A toy that builds toys, have an online design depository and there you go. 
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2015, 06:35:56 pm »
I don't think they are making the best 3d printers. What they are trying to make is a 3d printer that is well affordable while just works.

It is meant to be a toy for non-critical users, just for some crude prototype making.

Personally, I don't think I need a quality product, what I want is a tool that can bring me into the 3d printing world.

Not everyone starts with a fluke, and for the same reason, not everyone can afford a maker bot.
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2015, 06:39:31 pm »
A toy like that weird children's plastic filament 3D crafting pen  :-DD

A whacky idea, but I have seen it in the shops..... no motors or precision needed  ;D

Aurora
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2015, 06:55:48 pm »
That's cool, no programming required.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2015, 07:06:04 pm »
I've been thinking about some real world uses for a 3d printer that don't fall under the catagory of gimmick or prototype. These are ee related.

- Custom board standoffs
- Custom board holder for testing purposes.
- Shop tool holders, including those that could be used in cabinets, or cases.
- Fan shrouds
- Cable holders (scope probes and such)
 

Offline janoc

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2015, 01:23:45 pm »
Personally, I don't think I need a quality product, what I want is a tool that can bring me into the 3d printing world.

That is usually a very expensive mistake people make -  then they have to buy twice, because the first tool either isn't fit for the purpose or falls apart. This applies to tools in general, not just 3D printers. Decent tools aren't that much more expensive.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2015, 02:19:34 pm »
Quote
This applies to tools in general

I think that should be qualified by 'for tools you know you want'. I've sometimes bought expensive and very decent tools, but they didn't actually do what I wanted (some must-have feature missing, perhaps) so were really a waste of money.

My best buys have typically been when I know roughly what I want and then buy some cheap thing from which I learn what I really need and don't need. Then, using my new-found experience, I acquire the one that's going to last me a lifetime and be exactly what I want/need.

But you have to be realistic: the cheap one has to do enough, and be usable enough, for you to look beyond its flaws due to being cheap.

Nevertheless, in that context, I would think $179 well spent if this thing lasted enough jobs for me to figure out what the next one must have (and, equally, must not have). That one is likely to cost an order of magnitude more, and I'd want to know I can make an educated judgement about it.
 

Offline loneoceans

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2015, 10:06:02 pm »
I'm not very sure about their details, and in general I think the idea of an extruded frame is excellent, but here are a few concerns and thoughts (mostly ideas from discussion with some people):

Bed leveling
- This is really crucial for delta printing movement and I don't seem to see any sort of leveling or leveling sensors for the bed. This is made more concerning when the bed presumably is removable and soft.

Motors - It seems like they are using DC motors with no feedback (since they mention the extremely low cost, but.. just a guess), and that the motors are on the carriage instead of the frame, instead of belts. Also, this means that the carriages will be heavier, and I suspect that in practice this might result in very low print speeds. Also... I don't see a feed motor on the extrusion head?

Feedback - as mentioned, I can't find any reference of feedback except for 'accelerometer on the head'. This seems like that is the only source of feedback, which will certainly keep costs down, but I fear the accuracy and precision will suffer. Also, ""This same accelerometer is used for auto calibration, plus something even cooler. Tiko can measure its own performance, so with your permission, we can use performance data from your printer to help make every Tiko better."" - maybe they are using the accelerometer for feedback and using big data to improve results.

PLA without cooling - they mention PLA extrusion without active cooling (this is not novel, btw). I think that's fine, but what is more concerning is the result of the PLA print without cooling. Or maybe, it just prints very slowly?

Bearings - the delta bearings... look like they would wear out really fast. They mention injection molded? And I don't see how this will hold up to their claimed resolution in any sort of timeframe  :-//

Cost - their goals, and price point and timelines are... very optimistic. This has me a bit concerned... but fantastic if true!  :-//

 

Offline electr_peter

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #45 on: April 23, 2015, 08:15:59 am »
Feedback - as mentioned, I can't find any reference of feedback except for 'accelerometer on the head'. This seems like that is the only source of feedback, which will certainly keep costs down, but I fear the accuracy and precision will suffer. Also, ""This same accelerometer is used for auto calibration, plus something even cooler. Tiko can measure its own performance, so with your permission, we can use performance data from your printer to help make every Tiko better."" - maybe they are using the accelerometer for feedback and using big data to improve results.
I have experience with Delta type robots and have to say that calibration/feedback of some sort is very critical and not easy to do. I have some doubts that accuracy and consistency of acceleration sensor(if they use such sensor) is enough to get everything level, but we will have to see.
 

Offline MadModder

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2015, 05:28:30 pm »
The motors are unipolar stepper motors with a 64:1 reduction gearbox. The weight on the carriages keeps the gears engaged in the same direction at all times and therefore reduces the otherwise pretty bad backlash in these motors. They stated that the firmware also has some kind of super secret solution to deal with the backlash...
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2015, 06:15:27 pm »
I am always suspicious when a 'design team' says they have a super secret solution to a critical problem. Unless they provide some reasonable high level explanation of the solution, I tend to call BullS*it on such claims. It is my experience that such claims are often a stalling tactic as the team have yet to solve the issue and just want to claim 'secret sauce' is involved to avoid answering probing questions.

For a superb example of this, take a look at the Mu thermal camera project that fell flat on its face. A disaster from the start that claimed that all manner of NDA's and 'secret solutions' prevented them showing anything useful of the design. Mu have never released any reasonable explanation of how they were going to achieve the quoted price point when so many expensive obstacles stood in their way. I have to wonder if this printer project is following the same blinkered path ?

Aurora
« Last Edit: April 25, 2015, 07:40:27 pm by Aurora »
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2015, 06:50:38 pm »
I am always suspicious when a 'design team' says they have a super secret solution to a critical problem. Unless they provide some reasonable high level explanation of the solution, I tend to call BullS*it on such claims. It is my experience that such claims are often a stalling tactic as the team have yet to solve the issue and just want to claim 'secret sauce' is involved to avoid answering probing questions.

For a superb example of this, take a look at the Mu thermal camera project that fell flat on its face. A disaster from the start that claimed that all manner of NDA's and 'secrets solutions' prevented them showing anything useful of the design. Mu have never released any reasonable explanation of how they were going to achieve the quoted price point when so many expensive obstacles stood in their way. I have to wonder if this printer project is following the same blinkered path ?

Aurora

Yup, I can agree with that. I'm sure it's just a simple pattern system so the motors are always under tension in the same direction. As for "super secret" that's probably because it will increase process time. Even so I do wish them luck. The price is at a "toy" level so the features will be toy level as well, the "Easy Bake Oven" of it's day would be nice to see. 
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Delta FDM 3D printer for $179
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2015, 07:09:01 pm »
I am always suspicious when a 'design team' says they have a super secret solution to a critical problem.
So secret that they themselves don't know the solution, because they've not figured it out yet.
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