Author Topic: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter  (Read 21784 times)

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Offline Rufus

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2014, 06:47:42 pm »
I'm just trolling here. No actually I would never buy one of these, as gas is the only viable solution for water heating, after the sun of course.

Omg, thank-you for freaking saying it; for an engineering forum, this should be obvious.

It isn't obvious or true. Gas isn't available everywhere. Where I am gas is about 1/3rd the price of electricity by energy content. Heating water with gas is less efficient than with electricity. The equipment and installation are much more expensive for gas. For a local supply of hot water you need a local flue which may not be possible, otherwise you heat a lot of water in pipes which gets wasted.

Electricity may be the only option and where it isn't it is still viable depending on where and hot much hot water you want.
 

Offline Poe

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #51 on: January 17, 2014, 09:27:42 pm »
That quote....

People,
As the inventor , please allow me to clarify a few things.
I understand the skepticism when approaching an entirely new technology, especially one that is clearly disruptive and replaces what has commonly been used for decades.  Your point is that our claim of using graphite heating elements, cannot be true.  We do not use graphite heating elements. We do not use heating elements at all.  We do not employ any aspect of heat transfer.  Our technology (and our patent) is based on Direct Energy Resistance. This technology heats the water by passing a current though one or more pairs of graphite electrodes (which are not heating elements, but electrical conductors, which is why they do not get hotter than the water) , which excite the water molecules causing friction between the molecules, which results in the water heating itself.  Same concept as a microwave, except we use a different method to excite the water molecules. Same method as NUCOR and other steel mills use to melt steel; pass enough current through the material (in this case water) and it gets hotter. So the is no latent heat - zero.  Its like comparing a water proof toaster to a microwave. 2nd law of thermo does not apply here.
Since the electrodes don't get hot like heating elements, they do not get mineral deposition, or "scale" on them.
Rheem constantly makes misleading headline statements about they capacity. For example, they claim 4 GPM at 13kW. When you read the fine print, that results in a 20 degree temp rise, which unless you have incoming water at 90 degrees, is not going to give you a warm shower. The equation for all tankless is kW X 6.83 = temp rise (F) X GPM. You can see that their, and other units, follow this formulas as do we. You cannot beat physics.
I suspect some of you are thinking that this is a dangerous device; 1) Current only passes through one or more pairs of electrodes, creating a circuit, with no stray currents. However, we have added two grounding plates in the water chambers as a safeguard and we have passed UL 499 standard in our lab, which assures safety. Any and all units we ship will pass the $(( standard as certified by an outside lab, such as UL or TUV.
If you want to see the US patent, it is number 7,817,906
There are many reasons why people post projects on Kickstarter. Maybe some are desperate, we are not.
Thanks
Jerry Callahan

This might be an improvement over inline electric tankless water heaters, but lets be honest.  Electric tankless systems are a novelty, up-sold by contractors to the impatient wealthy.  They are not a replacement for the traditional tank system and MUST be used in conjunction. 

Your marketing is pretty devious.  It makes all kinds of implications, insinuations and just incorrect statements concerning your system in comparison to other heating systems.  Most of the time you're really spinning the numbers and making crazy assumptions behind the scenes. 

Nearly half of all residential water heaters in the USA are conventional electric tank systems.  Less than 1% (using any metric other than total installation cost per GPM) are electric tankless systems because they just suck in every way. 

Lets limit comparisons to other electric systems. There are really only two.  The cheap (traditional tanks) and the best (heat pumps).

First, efficiency....
Even the cheap conventional water heaters are >90% efficient!  Go online, find a cheap water heater, look at the mfr specs and how they measure efficiency.

Quote from: ISI KS page
"The largest drawback of tank water heaters is that they waste a tremendous amount of energy heating water when no one is using hot water."
nope.

THAT 90% EFFICIENCY NUMBER INCLUDES ANY HEAT LOST WHILE SITTING THERE OVER 24HOURS!
eCFR Code of Federal Regulations...
10 CFR 430, Subpart B, Appendix E..
"Uniform Test Method for Measuring the Energy Consumption of Water Heaters"
5.1.5.24
"24-Hour Simulated Use Test"


Conventional electric storage water heaters have improved REAL WORLD efficiency results thanks to this extended testing period.  It forced manufacturers to add internal liners, outer coatings, better R-value bulk insulation, eliminate drafty outer shells, isolated the base, use two heating elements and put thermal taps on the ports. 

Heat pumps produce just as much hot water, but consume a half (real world typical) as much power.  No violation of thermo.

How does Heatwork's tankless 99% efficient unit provide "up to 40% energy savings" unless it's compared to...something else?  All cost saving comparisons I find on the KS page were referencing gas heater numbers or in the case of that EnergyStar pamphlet, specs from systems that haven't existed for half a century....

Operational cost savings...
Cost comparison with a traditional tank is easy (90% vs 99%).  A typical family would therefore see an average annual savings less than $50

ROI = 'div by zero'

Comparing to the operational cost of a heatpump is also easy.  The Heatworks unit consumes, on average, twice as much power.
 
Space and Installation costs...

Tankless systems either take up your storage areas or they require holes punched in your walls, pipes and two phase lines run to those walls and access panels installed. 
"you will save space with our small 12" long unit rather than a big 46" unit!"
With plumbing, junction boxes capable of handling 10AWG wire and access panels, how much space does this 12" thing take up?  How many of these small 12" units will I need to install to replace one $300 conventional tank?  I might need more rooms in my house.

You say in your video that:
"in new construction, it's actually less expensive, up-front, to install these around the house, ... and run cold water and electrical wiring to them, than it is to run hot water pipe through the house."

I'm waiting for the disclaimer on this one.  Considering your product's capacity is so low that it needs to be used in conjunction with a conventional hot water tank.....a tank that gets water to your product with hot water lines....

Capacity...
I have two 7GPM showers and four 2GPM sinks.  My water comes from the utility at 55F and I want it 120F.  So each of my showers would need 66KW (7 of these units), and my sinks would each need 19KW (two units).  My entire home service is only rated at 44KW and I need to supply 210KW!?  Assuming I dedicate an entirely new electrical service to these things, and only let one turn on at a time... I can just barely take a comfortable shower?

Water savings......
The "10% water savings" statement assumes that 10% of my TOTAL water consumption is allowed to flow down the drain, right?  A large amount of the water I use is 100% cold water.  Dishwaster, cooking, drinking, toilets.  These things don't let the water run while waiting for the warm stuff.  To offset this fact, I would need to increase the relative percentage of time I waste water while waiting.  So how do you calculate the average amount of hot water that goes down the drain?! 

In your video you say that this unit saves one to two GPM every time you use your hot water tap.  What does that even mean?  It restricts my flow by 1.5GPM?  Couldn't I do the same with an obstruction like a hunk of dirt?  Then you state it saves 20 to 40 gallons per day without explaining how that is even possible.

The alternatives...
Heat pumps are better solution to any hot water system in every way.  They consume (typically) half the power as even this 99% efficient system for the same heat output as a conventional tank (no violation of thermo laws).  They are able to service an entire REAL WORLD home, not a home that only turns on one super low flow faucet on at a time.  Upfront costs of heat pumps are the only down side.  Although more expensive than conventional $300 tanks, they have a measurable ROI over something like this. 

This device might have applications, but I don't see them.  Anyone that wants the luxury of instant hot water just needs to install a circulating bleed valve.  It's a very cheap DIY project that bleeds a very small amount of hot water from the far end of the house to mix with the cold supply periodically.  This keeps the hot water supply line warm without wasting much energy.  Simple and cheap.





 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #52 on: January 17, 2014, 10:05:07 pm »

Heat pumps are better solution to any hot water system in every way.  They consume (typically) half the power as even this 99% efficient system for the same heat output as a conventional tank (no violation of thermo laws).  They are able to service an entire REAL WORLD home, not a home that only turns on one super low flow faucet on at a time.  Upfront costs of heat pumps are the only down side.  Although more expensive than conventional $300 tanks, they have a measurable ROI over something like this. 

This device might have applications, but I don't see them.

Absolutely spot on.  :-+

I have a Nyle Geyser heat pump unit that works great.  It plugs into a 120V outlet and with the 240V service to our 50 gallon standard electric tank turned off, in the summer, with the tank cold,  it will take our water from 50 F to 120 F drawing about 600 watts over 4 hours.  Exact power use depends on the ambient temperature of the surrounding air in our basement untility room- with colder temps it uses more power. In the summer it allows us to heat our hot water with excess PV power from our solar system. As a bonus it cools and dehumidifies the utility room which also serves as my lab! ;D

The nice thing about these units is that they are separate from the tank - so that when the tank dies - you just hook it up to the new one. The popular GE Geospring units are part of the tank themselves and must also be replaced.

Tankless, on demand propane units do make sense in some situations and sometimes so do tankless electric - but this "Heatworks" kickstarter unit makes no sense to me - I see no advantages to what is already available and plenty of disadvantages. :--

 

Offline sync

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #53 on: January 17, 2014, 10:06:24 pm »
In Germany the tankless water heaters uses not insulated heating wire which is in direct contact with water. Low thermal mass and low losses. Age-old technology which simply works. They last decades without maintenance. I don't see an advantage of this new technology.
 

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #54 on: January 23, 2014, 10:58:53 pm »
To FCB.
The photo on the KS campaign was meant to  show what the electrodes look like, not the whole array, which would be hard to distinguish in a photo (we tried!) and these are not the earthing electrodes.
Thanks for your thoughts,
Jerry
 

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #55 on: January 23, 2014, 11:02:30 pm »
To sync,
The biggest advantage is that our technology does not get scaling or mineral deposits which cause all electric tank heating elements to overheat and fail. Most Europeans know that they should have their units descaled, sometimes as frequently as once a year.
Thanks,
Jerry
 

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #56 on: January 23, 2014, 11:07:41 pm »
To Poe,
I find it hard to reply to someone who clearly has not read or understood the material and is suspicious of everything we state without the benefit of basic knowledge, so I won't.
If you (or anyone) want to learn more, please email me at info@isitechnology.com
Thanks,
Jerry
 

Offline sync

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #57 on: January 24, 2014, 02:00:35 pm »
To sync,
The biggest advantage is that our technology does not get scaling or mineral deposits which cause all electric tank heating elements to overheat and fail. Most Europeans know that they should have their units descaled, sometimes as frequently as once a year.
Thanks,
Jerry
That's not a problem with the tankless heaters I mean. They are self cleaning due the thermal expansion and contraction of the heating wire. They run decades without maintenance.
 

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2014, 02:30:12 pm »
To Sync,
That is not actually true for tankless electric. This is from Stiebel Eltron's web site.
Thanks,
Jerry
Does my Stiebel Eltron tankless electric water heater need to
be vented?

» Stiebel Eltron tankless electric water heaters are designed for a very long service life, but actual life expectancy will be directly affected by water quality and use. If you do not already know the quality of your water, we advise testing (your water department may be able to assist). Installing a non-salt based softener or polyphosphate inline filter may prolong the life of your unit. Stiebel Eltron recommends the HousePure® water filter (our Part No. 581331) for this purpose. To ensure consistent water flow, we recommend periodically checking for and removing any scale and dirt in the faucet aerators and showerheads, and in the filter screen in the unit. Depending on water hardness, scale build-up may need to be flushed from the unit every six months to a year. This will prolong the life of your water heater, and help ensure optimal performance. We recommend our Flow-aide Descaling Kit (our Part No. 540000) for this purpose. Alternatively white vinegar or CLR® Calcium, Lime & Rust Remover may be used.

Descaling procedure, step-by-step:

1. Disconnect power to water heater.
2. Close hot and cold isolation and service valves and remove service caps.
3. Pour 1.5 gallons of water into bucket and place under water heater.
4. Add contents of 1 quart bottle of Flow-aide into bucket (bucket should be filled approximately ½ full).
5. Connect one hose pump, and other end of same hose to cold service valve. Place pump in bucket.
6. Connect second hose to hot service valve. Place other end in bucket.
7. Open both hot and cold service valves.
8. Plug pump into grounded receptacle.
9. Allow pump to circulate Flow-aide solution through heater for 30-45 minutes. Unplug pump.
10. Close cold service valve. Remove hose from cold service valve, and replace service cap.
11. Disconnect the hose from the pump and remove pump from bucket. Discard Flow-aide solution.
12. Flush tankless water heater for 3-5 minutes or until water flows clear by opening the cold isolation valve and allowing water to exit through the hot service valve into a drain or bucket. If using a bucket, empty periodically.
13. Close hot service valve. Remove hose from service valve and replace service cap.
14. Open hot isolation valve.
15. Connect power to water heater and return appliance to service.
 

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2014, 02:40:16 pm »
Sorry,
when i cut and pasted I copied this by mistake. Please ignore in previous post.
Thanks,
Jerry

Does my Stiebel Eltron tankless electric water heater need to
be vented?
 

Offline sync

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #60 on: January 24, 2014, 04:37:16 pm »
I found this picture on www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com. This is not the kind of heating element what I mean. These have a cooper tube around the heating wire. And they need to be descaled.


What I mean are heaters which have the bare heating wire in direct contact with the water. No extra tube around them.
 

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #61 on: January 24, 2014, 06:57:46 pm »
Sync,
Inside those coils are the wire resistance heating elements. SE uses the outer pipe to slow down the degradation of those wire coils, but obviously they still need to be descaled.
This is from the Bosch web site, and Bosch uses bare wires. The reality for large or small resistance heating elements is that they get scale, and thermal expansion and contraction of the wire does not keep them from scaling.
Thanks,
Jerry

Descaling Powerstar AE-115 & AE-125

The electric tankless water heaters, Powerstar models AE115 and AE125 are high kilowatt electric tankless heaters that heat water on demand as the water passes through them. The modules inside consist of coiled elements that heat the water. The heating elements produce extreme heat inside the modules to heat the water on demand.

The heat that is produced by the heating elements in the modules sometimes counteracts with the mineral deposits in the water. If there is a high mineral content due to a hard water area then these mineral deposits known as "scale deposits" will over time attach themselves to the heating coils inside the modules.

All Bosch Powerstar electric tankless water heaters should never be descaled with any type of solution such as vinegar, muriatic acid, etc. The use of descalants flushed through the heater does not have much effect on the mineral deposits attached to the elements. Another point of trying to flush descalant through an electric tankless heater is that it will loosen some of the mineral deposits in the heater and will have a damaging effect on the flow transducer and other parts inside the tankless heater that detects the flow of water and will interrupt the signal to the circuit board itself.

The best protection against mineral deposits (scale) forming on the coils in the electric tankless heater is to check the quality of the water in your area before installing and if the water has a high mineral content then it is recommended to install a water softener or scale stopper system. The water softener or scale stopper will filter out almost all of the minerals and treat the water so the electric tankless water heater will have a longer life with less minerals building up inside.
 

Offline Frost

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #62 on: January 24, 2014, 08:00:27 pm »
This is not the kind of heating element what I mean.
It's intresting that the www.stiebel-eltron-usa.com page shows only
the low power DHC-E devices from stiebel and all come without
the bare wire heating element.

Maximum of 12kW, this is ridiculous, I would never use a continuous flow
heater with such low output power <24kW.
I can't imagine that they work properly with only 12kW of heating power.
Either you need a high inlet temperature or the output flow rate will be
extreamly low. Ok, maybe Hawaii could be the right place.

For the DHC-E 12 they quote a maximum temperature increase
of only 36 degrees fahrenheit at 2.25GPM, that's only for people
who prefer to take cold showers :)


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Here is a patent for an optimization of a bare wire
continuous flow heater.

http://www.google.com/patents/EP2597394A1?cl=en&hl=de

The aim is the optimization of the waterflow inside
the heating element to reduce the passive areas
within the cartridge.

Fig. 2 shows a cross-section of the bare wire heating element
 

Offline sync

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #63 on: January 24, 2014, 08:11:34 pm »
Inside those coils are the wire resistance heating elements. SE uses the outer pipe to slow down the degradation of those wire coils, but obviously they still need to be descaled.
And the reality is that here in Germany they are used without descaling. If they scale then they will fail due overheating as you wrote. But that's not the case. They ran for decades without failing.

For example Siemens wrote that no descaling is necessary (sorry German):
"Entkalkungssystem       keine Entkalkung erforderlich"
http://www.siemens-home.de/produktsuche/warmwasser/durchlauferhitzer/elektronische-durchlauferhitzer/DE18401.html?source=browse
-> Technische Daten
 

Offline Frost

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #64 on: January 24, 2014, 08:58:52 pm »
And the reality is that here in Germany they are used without descaling.

That's absolutely true.
I use continuous flow heaters for over 30 years now
and never had a problem with scaling.

Yes, the first heaters were crap, because you could
not control the outflow temperature.
So you had to mix cold water at the faucet to get
the right temperature.

With the new full microprocessor controlled heaters
like the Stiebel DHE SL which appeared on the market
around 10 years ago, that is now a thing of the past.

You can remote control the outflow temperature in
steps of 0.5 degrees Celsius (0.9 degrees Fahrenheit)
and the output flow rate in steps of 0.1 Liter per minute (0.026GPM).

The device is able to offer different wellness programs
with computer controlled flow and temperature curves
but this is only a gimmick that I never use.
 

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #65 on: January 24, 2014, 09:14:30 pm »
Frost,
The limiting factor is the amount of current you can connect to one heating device at one time. UL here in the US limits it 48 amps, and I think CE, limits it to 50. So the larger "whole house" units are just two or more individual heaters in one package, with multiple power connections. You are correct about your assumptions about incoming water temp or flow. So if you needed 24kW say, then two of ours would suffice when piped in parallel.
As far as scaling, if the mineral content is low, then scaling is not a problem. However, that is not the case in much of the world, certainly not in the US.
Thanks,
Jerry
 

Offline sync

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #66 on: January 24, 2014, 09:41:51 pm »
Frost,
The limiting factor is the amount of current you can connect to one heating device at one time. UL here in the US limits it 48 amps, and I think CE, limits it to 50. So the larger "whole house" units are just two or more individual heaters in one package, with multiple power connections. You are correct about your assumptions about incoming water temp or flow. So if you needed 24kW say, then two of ours would suffice when piped in parallel.
We have three-phase electric power in our houses and apartments. Only some very old installation doesn't. My apartment has 3x36A@230V (25kW). I think it's the bare minimum by code. It's upgradeable to 3x63A (43kW) without rewiring. Plenty of electricity to burn. :) But I use natural gas for heating and warm water.

The biggest domestic electric water heaters are 27kW. One unit. They are connected to 3x40A.

Quote
As far as scaling, if the mineral content is low, then scaling is not a problem. However, that is not the case in much of the world, certainly not in the US.
In my region we have very high mineral content. We have scaling problems even with cold water. But not with bare wire heaters.
 

Offline Frost

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #67 on: January 24, 2014, 09:54:15 pm »
The limiting factor is the amount of current you can connect to one heating device at one time.

I know, thats mainly an US problem I think.

UL here in the US limits it 48 amps, and I think CE, limits it to 50.

That's not the main problem.
The circuit breaker in front of the heater is reatet with only 40 amps.
But in germany nearly every house and not only the house,
every distribution board of a dwelling unit, too
is connected with Three-phase electric power to the grid.
The result 230V*SQRT(3)~400V and this reduces the required
current.
 

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #68 on: January 24, 2014, 10:41:55 pm »
Good feedback, thanks!
we plan on a 3 phase unit later this year.
 

Offline Poe

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2014, 04:10:28 am »
To Poe,
I find it hard to reply to someone who clearly has not read or understood the material and is suspicious of everything we state without the benefit of basic knowledge, so I won't.
If you (or anyone) want to learn more, please email me at info@isitechnology.com
Thanks,
Jerry

Emailed you without reply. 

I understand your trepidation, your story is quite common.

You developed a product without completely knowing your market.  Now you're trying to build a business unloading these things on an uneducated customer base by implying benefits.  I'm not saying it can't work.  Snake oil salesman made livings for centuries doing this stuff. 

My post hopefully educated some people.  If I got anything wrong or you see any fact that needs corrected, please point it out on this very public forum and I'll correct it with an appropriate apology.  Something tells me you're not willing to do the same.
 

Offline ISI

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Re: Heatworks Water Heater KickStarter
« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2014, 02:39:45 pm »
Poe,
I checked my inbox, junk and spam folders and did not get an email from you. Please resend with EEVBLOG in the subject line.
I have spent over seven years researching this market and rightly take offense at your unfounded claims of snake oil salesmanship. Is it possible that you are trying to undermine us because you are a competitor?
Your claims generally unfounded, and please see this US DOE report for support on the big picture for tankless. http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/tankless-or-demand-type-water-heaters

Far from being  a novelty item, there are over 13 million sold around the world each year, and our fellow bloggers from Germany that were discussing scaling can probably tell you that they are not a novelty in Europe

Do they, in your words, "suck"? Yes, and that is why I spent years developing a better one.

As far as your claims about heat pumps, where do the heat pumps get their heat? From the surrounding air. If they are in your house (they don't work well at temps less than 45 F, so people don't put them outside in NA), don't you have to replace that heat, which drives up your heating cost? Plus,since their recovery period is significantly longer, most people operate them in the hybrid mode, which uses archaic heating elements, and results in much lower efficiencies like conventional electric tank type. Pus they need to have their filters changed monthly and provide 55-60 galleon of water storage in the same envelope that an 8- gallon tank used to take, so there is a lot less actual hot water you can use.

As far as recirc systems, they costs about $100-200 per year to run, so if you don't care about energy savings (and since you told us you take showers at 7 GPM apparently you don't seem to care about saving water either) then you can certainly use them.

I think what really pains me is this comment;

"Your marketing is pretty devious.  It makes all kinds of implications, insinuations and just incorrect statements concerning your system in comparison to other heating systems.  Most of the time you're really spinning the numbers and making crazy assumptions behind the scenes."

I think you owe all of us specific and detailed supporting information behind this statement. I understand that this blog is meant to share information in an honest and professional manner, and I would appreciate it you would respond in kind.
BTW, what part of the world do you live?

Thanks,
Jerry
 


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