Author Topic: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...  (Read 20646 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ivaylo

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 590
  • Country: us
If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« on: October 13, 2016, 05:57:21 pm »
...you get this https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/245727224/mag-lev-audio-the-first-levitating-turntable

It was a matter of time, I guess. I see many broken LPs in your future...
 

Offline 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2124
  • Country: hr
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2016, 06:07:28 pm »
And what about magnetic cartridge picking up that 2 Tesla magnetic field..... |O :palm:
 

Offline rob77

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1848
  • Country: sk
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2016, 06:29:40 pm »
And what about magnetic cartridge picking up that 2 Tesla magnetic field..... |O :palm:

piezo-cartridge !  :-DD

 

Online PA0PBZ

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4151
  • Country: nl
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2016, 06:47:05 pm »
I'm trying to imagine how long it will take till this thing is running at a steady RPM... 30 minutes?
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline rob77

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1848
  • Country: sk
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2016, 10:06:53 pm »
I'm trying to imagine how long it will take till this thing is running at a steady RPM... 30 minutes?

i'm rather wondering how will it maintain it's stable speed.. servo drive is not possible with such a loose coupling... and to do it with inertia you would have to levitate some serious mass there (5kg or even more).
 

Offline Cyberdragon

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2136
  • Country: us
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2016, 01:43:06 am »
I have to say it's rather...

Hideous! I hate that fake wood crap, it looks like disgusting 70's cabinets or something! They should have totally gone with brushed chrome! :rant:

And on top of that...what if...

*aaaaaHHHHH-CHOO!*
*Imbalance*
*SNAP! Flings disc across the room like a frisbee...right into the dirty cat litter box in the corner of your appartment* >:D
"nnnnNNNNOOOOOOOO!"

*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14075
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2016, 06:40:56 am »
Can be done with any everyday VFD:



Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline onesixright

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 587
  • Country: nl
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2016, 07:47:25 am »
Fun aside. Is this really gonna work (find it hard to imagine)? I have no experience with mag lev, but looking at Dave's video about the DeLorean :-/

Is it not nearly to impossible to get a steady rotation via maglev? And doesn't kick starter requires a working prototype / POC ?

Dave, any change you would like to elaborate on this (they do ask for some serious dough!) ? :-)
 

Offline rob77

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1848
  • Country: sk
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2016, 07:48:19 am »
Can be done with any everyday VFD:

but it has to levitate the disc and compensate for any forces trying to knock the disk of balance and provide a jitter-free rock-solid drive at the same time...  so i'm afraid it won't be that easy as using an existing VFD.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30087
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2016, 07:55:15 am »
Jesus H. Christ
That has to win the Golden Wank award, surely?
 

Offline rollatorwieltje

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 571
  • Country: nl
  • I brick your boards.
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2016, 08:26:49 am »
Lol, huge magnetic field near a record player... They even advertise they are using a Moving Magnet cartridge... That will be an epic failure...

Also funny how "semi automatic" is a selling point. There are plenty of fully automatic record players available, it isn't that hard. I have an old Dual 601 that's fully automatic, it even has a repeat function.
 

Online helius

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2859
  • Country: us
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2016, 08:42:03 am »
Quote from: rollatorwieltje
Also funny how "semi automatic" is a selling point. There are plenty of fully automatic record players available, it isn't that hard. I have an old Dual 601 that's fully automatic, it even has a repeat function.
Fully automatic turntables from the old days put mechanical pressure against the tone arm as the unload switch gets pressed in. It can cause visible damage to the inner tracks after repeated plays. Semi-automatic is definitely better than fully automatic.
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14075
  • Country: us
  • Expert, Analog Electronics, PCB Layout, EMC
    • Seven Transistor Labs
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2016, 09:16:17 am »
Can be done with any everyday VFD:

but it has to levitate the disc and compensate for any forces trying to knock the disk of balance and provide a jitter-free rock-solid drive at the same time...  so i'm afraid it won't be that easy as using an existing VFD.

If it's (DC) magnetically levitated, that may be true.  AC fields don't suffer the same drawback: conductors are diamagnetic at AC.  One consequence is that a rotating magnetic field induces spin in conducting materials; another is that levitation is stable (downside: things get hot, unless they are superconductors).


Tim
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electronic design, from concept to prototype.
Bringing a project to life?  Send me a message!
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12037
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2016, 09:23:14 am »
This has so much fail I can only conclude it's a scam. The video is so laughable as to support this.
I would be highly surprised if this is even possible with acceptable performance as pictured, at ANY price.

How do you keep it centered accurately enough, at that distance (Inverse square law is a bitch). The tiniest eccentricity or horizontal motion will cause audible pitch fluctuation.

It will fail.


 
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 
The following users thanked this post: jancumps

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30087
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2016, 09:34:13 am »
Fun aside. Is this really gonna work (find it hard to imagine)? I have no experience with mag lev, but looking at Dave's video about the DeLorean :-/
Is it not nearly to impossible to get a steady rotation via maglev? And doesn't kick starter requires a working prototype / POC ?
Dave, any change you would like to elaborate on this (they do ask for some serious dough!) ? :-)

It's doomed to failure, I'm fairly sure.
To get the plate/record spinning at a fixed RPM is hard enough, but to do that without wobble (some induced by the arm obviously) has got to be trickiest more fragile system I can imagine. The wow and flutter is going to be horrendous. I can't imagine how audiophiles would not be aware of this. But of course they are blinded by the wow factor (no pun intended) of the levitation.
The best audiophool turntables have huge mass plates for this very reason.


http://dagogo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/AMG-Viella-3.jpg

 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30087
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2016, 09:41:14 am »
This has so much fail I can only conclude it's a scam. The video is so laughable as to support this.

Note the very carefully selected close camera framing when placing the record on the platter. They won't ever show you a wide continuous shot of actually placing a record on the  platter and then putting the arm on it and then starting it. There is a reason for that...

A phenomenal amount of effort has gone into the video and the photos and the campaign. It's very slick snake oil.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 09:43:00 am by EEVblog »
 
The following users thanked this post: onesixright

Offline rollatorwieltje

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 571
  • Country: nl
  • I brick your boards.
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2016, 09:44:26 am »
Quote from: rollatorwieltje
Also funny how "semi automatic" is a selling point. There are plenty of fully automatic record players available, it isn't that hard. I have an old Dual 601 that's fully automatic, it even has a repeat function.
Fully automatic turntables from the old days put mechanical pressure against the tone arm as the unload switch gets pressed in. It can cause visible damage to the inner tracks after repeated plays. Semi-automatic is definitely better than fully automatic.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this? Semi-automatic units (like this kickstarter) also automatically lift the tone arm at the end of the record using some switch arrangement. You're saying that the automatic return mechanism puts extra strain on the tone arm? On my Dual the automatic start/return mechanism only engages when the arm is fully lifted, when the arm is on the record it's completely disengaged.
 

Online helius

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2859
  • Country: us
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2016, 10:52:38 am »
I think there may be some terminological confusion: to me, a "fully automatic" turntable detects the end of the record by the tone arm's position and triggers lift-off, returns the arm to its rest, and powers off. A "semi-automatic" turntable will keep playing the runout lockgroove, until the user presses stop, when it lifts off, returns the arm, and powers off. A "manual" turntable has no cueing functions at all. There are obviously many variations and combinations: some tables will start the motor if you just move the tone arm over the disc and some won't. The issue I was referring to is when the turntable detects tone arm position with a mechanical gear or switch. This affects the horizontal compliance of the arm assembly and can lead to increased wear.
The problem is fully solved by electro-optical, capacitive, or similar automatic systems, but those wouldn't appear until the 1980s.
 

Offline onesixright

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 587
  • Country: nl
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2016, 11:04:55 am »
Yeah the video looks very slick.

300K and almost ½ way there. Incredible how people like to be scammed. I love the thought, looks very appealing / futuristic, but a ½ second later you start to ask if its feasible at all.

Now I thought kickstarted wanted a working prototype as proof? As Dave says, video is very well crafted. So a smartly edited video is all it takes?  Why there is not a simple fraud flag, so kickstarter investigates?

Its a a-shame, i love the thought of crowded funding, but these projects give it a bad rep. |O Time  for a crow-funding platform that takes it serious, and shifts the good from the bad.  First a audit, then the a webpage.
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30087
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2016, 11:14:37 am »
Now I thought kickstarted wanted a working prototype as proof? As Dave says, video is very well crafted. So a smartly edited video is all it takes?

I think so.
Basically the photo and video are real, they have something. Whether or not it actually works or how well it works is something Kickstarter probably don't bother asking. Their rule is basically "no render only projects". It's pretty wishy-washy.
https://www.kickstarter.com/rules/prototypes
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30087
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2016, 11:16:57 am »
Quote
By using our innovative and patented technology, we were able to achieve not only magnetic levitation, but we’ve also been able to maintain the incredibly precise turning of the platter with sensor regulating software.

if they aren't lying about the patent, then it must be public...
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30087
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2016, 11:19:18 am »
This is all you need to know to know they have nothing close to a final working product:
Quote
Risks and challenges
We understand the extreme complexity of this product. Through detailed preparations with a team of individuals who care about delivering the best product possible as well as a team of manufacturers in place, we are positive the product will be delivered on time. We will keep an open policy regarding information, so you as a backer will have a full understanding of the process and challenges we will be facing on the way.
 
The following users thanked this post: MarkL

Offline NANDBlog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4479
  • Country: nl
Re: If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #22 on: October 14, 2016, 11:26:41 am »
Lol, huge magnetic field near a record player... They even advertise they are using a Moving Magnet cartridge... That will be an epic failure...

Also funny how "semi automatic" is a selling point. There are plenty of fully automatic record players available, it isn't that hard. I have an old Dual 601 that's fully automatic, it even has a repeat function.
Not to mention:
You put a speaker next to it, and the magnetic field of the speaker will give you free echo effect!
 

Online EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 30087
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
 

Offline timb

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2528
  • Country: us
  • Pretentiously Posting Polysyllabic Prose
    • timb.us
If you marry the Hovering Delorean with a turntable...
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2016, 11:30:04 am »
Fun aside. Is this really gonna work (find it hard to imagine)? I have no experience with mag lev, but looking at Dave's video about the DeLorean :-/
Is it not nearly to impossible to get a steady rotation via maglev? And doesn't kick starter requires a working prototype / POC ?
Dave, any change you would like to elaborate on this (they do ask for some serious dough!) ? :-)

It's doomed to failure, I'm fairly sure.
To get the plate/record spinning at a fixed RPM is hard enough, but to do that without wobble (some induced by the arm obviously) has got to be trickiest more fragile system I can imagine. The wow and flutter is going to be horrendous. I can't imagine how audiophiles would not be aware of this. But of course they are blinded by the wow factor (no pun intended) of the levitation.
The best audiophool turntables have huge mass plates for this very reason.

Pfft, I can solve that problem! Get rid of the old fashioned moving coil magnetic pickup and diamond tipped needle altogether. Replace them with a tiny macro camera and white LED!

So, the platter levitates off the base and the tone arm hangs over the record as it rotates. Since it never makes physical contact, there would never be any damage to the disk!

As the record rotates, the camera takes successive images (not unlike a flatbread scanner) and software is used to extrapolate the audio data in real time! The software would play the audio at the correct speed.

Seems far fetched, but this method (scanning a record) has actually been used to digitize some *very* old records. If I recall it was the National Archives that did it. There's also a method of using a laser to play back records; the audio quality is supposedly *very* good.

Edit: The 2D optical scanning system is called IRENE and has been used to digitize some of the very first records ever produced, which are over 120 years old! It's actually The Library of Congress that uses this system. There's also an IRENE/3D system for digitizing quadraphonic and hill-dale records.

The laser based playback approach was first proposed in 1972 with a working prototype (LASERPHONE) shown in 1976. By 1986 a commercial version (Finial) was *almost* ready, with a projected street price of $2,500. Unfortunately, that was when CDs were starting to become popular, which pretty much killed the market for a laser turn table. In 1989 the company was sold (and became ELP Japan) and the product went through another 8 years of design before *finally* being released in 1997 for $20,000; 20 years after the first prototype!
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 07:59:31 pm by timb »
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf