Author Topic: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?  (Read 15612 times)

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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2019, 07:40:38 pm »
It promises around 3000 cubic inches at 40 pounds for 5000 BTU nominal cooling. A Frigidaire FFRE063ZA1 is around 3750 cubic inches at 45.9 pounds for 6000 BTU nominal cooling. Playing around a bit with airflow and efficiency the remaining distance between those numbers isn't going to be hard to cross.

Oh, but someone's dad knows better, so Frigidaire is completely lying and scamming us because dad laws of physics say so!

Thank you for an actual contribution, and completely debunking the "laws of physics" cargo cult circlejerk club in one go.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 07:44:25 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Online Mechatrommer

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2019, 11:46:16 pm »
if you have nothing to do other than spewing bullshit you better just enjoy and watch. the original spec of Noria was...

Size: 5.8''H x 18.25''W x 15''D
Weight: Approximately 30 pounds.
Cooling Capacity: 5,000 BTU/hour.

Frigidaire
Size: 15.8 x 18.6 x 12.8 inches
Weight: 45.9 pounds
Cooling Capacity: 6000 BTU

thats only 1500 cubic inches for Noria, half of Frigidaire... so if you cant realize this elementary facts and not having the slightest idea, you should stop spewing bullshit in an attempt to back a failed enthusiast, and congratulation to Marco for making that like apple to apple comparison. if Mr Kurt thinks that reducing volume by half and yet still try to press as much refrigerant into the system as twice the volume unit and expect it to work optimally in Carnot cycle, then i think he is delusional.

the average market price for such a window unit or (10kbtu or 1HP AC unit) is around $250. Noria asked $600, $350 more because it has bluetooth and wifi IC in it and some colorful leds. $350 x 3715 = $1.3M solely can be used for R&D (which they should already done before the campaign) and one-time tooling cost, the $250/unit cost from the $600 asking price is still untouched, thats is another $1M money. and yet they still short of fund. i think they want to make Agilent factory.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 12:30:19 am by Mechatrommer »
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2019, 02:15:45 pm »
the original spec of Noria was...

Size: 5.8''H x 18.25''W x 15''D
Weight: Approximately 30 pounds.
Cooling Capacity: 5,000 BTU/hour.
thats only 1500 cubic inches for Noria

Thank you for pointing out the change-of-specs. A real technical contribution, wow!

So the Original Noria for reference:
1588 cubic inches (not 1500; 1600 would be correctly rounded. Yes, a 7% rounding error is significant when we are talking about numbers of 36% to 50%)
0.318 in^3 per BTU

Quote
Frigidaire
Size: 15.8 x 18.6 x 12.8 inches
Cooling Capacity: 6000 BTU

0.627 in^3 per BTU
Noria's claimed improvement compared to this Frigidaire: 49%

But wait, there are others:
Frigidaire FFRE0833S1
(18.5*17.5*13.4)/8000 = 0.542 in^3 per BTU
Noria's claimed improvement compared to this: 41%

Danby DAC080B5WDB
(16.8*18.5*13.4)/8000 = 0.521 in^3 per BTU
Noria's claimed improvement compared to this: 39%

Frigidaire FFRE1233S1
(19*21.5*14.5)/12000 = .494 in^3 per BTU
Noria's claimed improvement compared to this: 36%
(This is the best volumetric power density cheap window AC number I found in a 10-minute search.)

Now I have a few rhetorical questions and comments for you. No need to reply, I'm not following the thread after this:

Do you have an understanding about the third exponent in volumetric measurements, and its implications?

Where is the source for the implied claim that existing machines are totally size-optimized for every millimeter, and, not for - OMG - price? (A personal experience: I'm running my AC unit without the cover, because it has a stupid form and the casing mostly holds dead space inside. Its volume down by at least 30-40% just by removing the stupidly designed cover.)

Do you realize that the measurements listed are inaccurate, tend to be rounded, sometimes to half an inch? A 36% volumetric difference might easily be 45%, or 25%.

Have you seen a size difference of a 50/60Hz AC compressor, and a new-generation inverter-driven BLDC compressor of same size, in a modern AC unit?

How do you base the idea that the existing window machines represent the highest evolution of compressor technology, such as BLDC compressors with inverter drive? I'm not saying Noria implements these, but it's a possible implementation.

You can quickly show, to high certainty, that something likely is going to be physically impossible if they claim an improvement of 1000%.

But how do you instantly know, without doing the actual full design math, that a claimed 36% increase in volumetric power density (11% linear increase in each dimension satisfies this condition, for example) is completely impossible, by laws of physics? Of course you don't. You are just full of bullshit.

I can instantly see many of technical details I could do to increase the power density, if I wanted to, like:

* Use an inverter drive, drive the compressor motor at higher frequency; optimize the motor lamination thickness and core material to decrease core losses again. This easily reduces the motor size to 1/3, BTDT.

* Optimize the inverter size using modern semiconductor technology. I can fit a 1kW inverter drive in 0.5x1x3 inch area.

* Change the evaporator and condenser coil spreader leafs from aluminum to copper; make them couple better to the copper pipes, using thermal interface materials, or even welding or soldering the leafs. The typical way of coupling kinda sucks. It's cheap to manufacture; they just use bigger coils to compensate.

* Use modern fan design. Classical implementations require a lot of dead space to direct the airflow to the full condenser/evaporator coil, from one centrifugal or radial fan. Centrifugal fan itself has a good airflow-to-volume ratio, but when equipped with the required air channels, it isn't so good anymore. Besides, they tend to again use 50/60Hz induction motors for these fans. For a point of comparison, look for modern laptop cooling (airflow to volume ratio).

* Use modern electronics to create the front panels. These are classically HUGE, including mechanical knobs, or deep components like DIP 7-segment LED displays. Not uncommon at all that the front panel unit is 10x4x1 inches alone.


Quote
the average market price for such a window unit or (10kbtu or 1HP AC unit) is around $250. Noria asked $600, $350 more because it has bluetooth and wifi IC in it and some colorful leds.

It didn't occur to you that maybe, just maybe, the higher price could be because of, you know, optimization work went into power density, instead of price. Just sayin'. It would be a logical conclusion.

(In reality, I agree with you that it's likely a con, and the price went into the colorful leds. I don't like them either. But this is besides the point.)

The fact they had to change the specs means they clearly didn't make it. But, the circle jerk club is still wrong, as clearly shown. After this analysis I can say with full confidence that the answer to the question in the title, is it too good to be true, is no; the specifications are completely feasible and achievable by good engineering and optimization.

Make your own conclusions.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 02:23:32 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline edy

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2019, 05:11:44 pm »
Oh, but someone's dad knows better, so Frigidaire is completely lying and scamming us because dad laws of physics say so!

 :-DD    Yes, dad laws of physics always win in my book!  And it's not Frigidaire that is scamming/lying... last I checked they actually delivered working products to the market.

Anyways, assuming it is possible to achieve what Noria set out to do... laws of physics aside, where's the result? It only makes the argument for them worse... That is, they are now without any result for something that is physically possible! Which is worse? To try to do something physically impossible and fail, or to just take money when you could have accomplished something possible within laws of physics and current tech?  :-//

I'm all for Noria succeeding... this will be good for everyone. I sincerely hope it comes to fruition. But each day that passes, my confidence that we will get something anywhere close to the original specs and size and cooling capacity that Noria originally promised diminishes.

And by the way, if it was just a matter of taking out the "dead space" in between the components in the air-conditioner and using a few smaller more efficient newly available components to shrink it down 30-40%, don't you think it would have been possible already after all this money and time? Minus all the Wifi/Bluetooth electronic circuit, how hard do you think it is to create the RAW air-conditioner and prove it works? Then add all the other stuff (app, Wifi, fancy enclosure) later.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 05:18:01 pm by edy »
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Online Mechatrommer

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2019, 05:55:54 pm »
Anyways, assuming it is possible to achieve what Noria set out to do... laws of physics aside, where's the result? It only makes the argument for them worse... That is, they are now without any result for something that is physically possible! Which is worse? To try to do something physically impossible and fail, or to just take money when you could have accomplished something possible within laws of physics and current tech?  :-//
ditto!
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Offline edy

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2019, 06:30:21 pm »
Look what I found at Walmart Canada for $139 CA (like less than $100 US) (Midea 5000 BTU A/C):

https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/midea-5000-btu-window-air-conditioner/6000199090296?cmpid=sem_google_en_pla_none_1075009830_54173645458_None&gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8q2V4NfQ4wIVwxx9Ch0snQrREAQYASABEgJ8UfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds




Midea 5000 BTU A/C as per Wal-Mart website Dimensions and weight:

Assembled Height     12.05 in
Assembled Length     13.19 in
Assembled Width       15.98 in
Assembled Weight     35.27 lb


Now the Kapsul W5 info found on the site: https://www.kapsulair.com/faq



This has been revised since the original campaign to be more within realistic (not breaking the law of physics) specifications. Remember still on their Noria page (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kurt/noria-cool-redefined/description) it still says 5.8''H x 18.25''W x 15''D and weight approx. 30 lb, which itself may have changed since the original campaign started (I'm sure someone can confirm if this size/weight has crept up during the last few years without anyone noticing website modifications).

Anyways, their Kapsul W5 specs are as follows:

Height: Face: 7.28" Adapter band: 7.68"
Width: 19.69"
Depth: Body of unit is 22" (8" of that comes into the room, the rest extends through the wall and outside.) 23.87" includes the faceplate and temperature knob.
Weight: 40 lbs (even weight distribution and handles at each end make it easy to carry and even possible to hold with one hand.)

Ok now let's compare dimensions:

               Midea           Kapsul
Height     12.05 in         7.28 in
Length     13.19 in        19.69 in
Width       15.98 in        22.00 in
Weight     35.27 lb        40.00 lb

WHHAAAATTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!  |O   :-DD   |O   :-DD   |O   :-DD   |O

How is this freakingly possible??? Somebody quick go to Walmart and buy a Midea and re-arrange the insides to the shape of a Kapsul and send it to them... you have solved the problem and saved their Kickstarter/IndieGogo campaign!  :-DD

Noria volume:           1587.75 cu in  @ ~30 lb         (5.8 x 18.25 x 15)
Midea volume:           2540 cu in @ ~35 lb            (12.05 x 13.19 x 15.98)
Kapsul W5 volume:    3153 cu in @ ~ 40 lb           (7.28 x 19.69 x 22)

WOW!  :palm:  Their original "Noria" size was HALF the size of what they are now pushing as the Kapsul W5, and you can pick up a Midea from Wal-Mart today for about $100 US which is SMALLER than a Kapsul W5 and LIGHTER.  :palm:  It's too bad they weren't honest with their specs at the time they launched their campaign. Maybe they wouldn't have had as many backers. But since when is honesty a requirement of Kickstarter/IndieGogo campaigns?

So I guess it is not the laws of physics limiting them... it's the laws of morality!  :box:

Dad-Cad says a Midea and Kapsul W5 is physically possible, but a 40% reduction in size compared to the Midea (which is what Noria wanted us to believe) is not. This all boils back to Noria's original claims of size and weight. I'm pretty confident Kapsul W5 can be delivered... at this point you would have to be completely incompetent or crooks or both not to be able to release an A/C that is larger and weighs more than what is already available. Let's hope the Kickstarter and IndieGoGo backers at least receive a Kapsul W5 for their troubles, or send them a Midea in the meantime.  :-DD
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 06:53:54 pm by edy »
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Online Mechatrommer

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2019, 04:41:13 am »
if they go the waterseer way type of R&D... by taking parts apart and put into their capsule sheet hole... they should already deliver long time ago with somewhat crippled btu, but who cares? as long as they put 5000 btu sticker on top of it and backers are happy with the placebo effect... here the closest thing so far to 1500 cu.inch... 3072BTU Window Air Conditioner with excess $200-300 of the crowd fund cost, they can enjoy the retirement happy life with the $1M+ china Jho Low easy come easy go everybody happy way...
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Online Mechatrommer

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2019, 06:25:40 pm »
i just found a smaller version of this. much smaller but much cooler. who will have the bragging right?
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2019, 08:27:29 pm »
Something like this could have had potential if it was marketed and designed right.   There is not much as far as battery operated A/C units, ex: for small off grid setups.  A ~500BTU unit that runs on a 12v BLDC (to vary cooling capacity) could be very useful for say, tent camping.  could run off a small solar setup and you could adjust the power usage by slowing down the compressor.  Don't try to be fancy and use "revolutionary" tech, make it use a standard refrigeration cycle, just make it lower capacity/power usage and make it run on DC.

Essentially make it like a portable with two 1" air hoses (air inlet/outlet).   Essentially it would be a mini high velocity system.
 


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