Author Topic: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?  (Read 18105 times)

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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2019, 07:40:38 pm »
It promises around 3000 cubic inches at 40 pounds for 5000 BTU nominal cooling. A Frigidaire FFRE063ZA1 is around 3750 cubic inches at 45.9 pounds for 6000 BTU nominal cooling. Playing around a bit with airflow and efficiency the remaining distance between those numbers isn't going to be hard to cross.

Oh, but someone's dad knows better, so Frigidaire is completely lying and scamming us because dad laws of physics say so!

Thank you for an actual contribution, and completely debunking the "laws of physics" cargo cult circlejerk club in one go.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 07:44:25 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2019, 11:46:16 pm »
if you have nothing to do other than spewing bullshit you better just enjoy and watch. the original spec of Noria was...

Size: 5.8''H x 18.25''W x 15''D
Weight: Approximately 30 pounds.
Cooling Capacity: 5,000 BTU/hour.

Frigidaire
Size: 15.8 x 18.6 x 12.8 inches
Weight: 45.9 pounds
Cooling Capacity: 6000 BTU

thats only 1500 cubic inches for Noria, half of Frigidaire... so if you cant realize this elementary facts and not having the slightest idea, you should stop spewing bullshit in an attempt to back a failed enthusiast, and congratulation to Marco for making that like apple to apple comparison. if Mr Kurt thinks that reducing volume by half and yet still try to press as much refrigerant into the system as twice the volume unit and expect it to work optimally in Carnot cycle, then i think he is delusional.

the average market price for such a window unit or (10kbtu or 1HP AC unit) is around $250. Noria asked $600, $350 more because it has bluetooth and wifi IC in it and some colorful leds. $350 x 3715 = $1.3M solely can be used for R&D (which they should already done before the campaign) and one-time tooling cost, the $250/unit cost from the $600 asking price is still untouched, thats is another $1M money. and yet they still short of fund. i think they want to make Agilent factory.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 12:30:19 am by Mechatrommer »
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2019, 02:15:45 pm »
the original spec of Noria was...

Size: 5.8''H x 18.25''W x 15''D
Weight: Approximately 30 pounds.
Cooling Capacity: 5,000 BTU/hour.
thats only 1500 cubic inches for Noria

Thank you for pointing out the change-of-specs. A real technical contribution, wow!

So the Original Noria for reference:
1588 cubic inches (not 1500; 1600 would be correctly rounded. Yes, a 7% rounding error is significant when we are talking about numbers of 36% to 50%)
0.318 in^3 per BTU

Quote
Frigidaire
Size: 15.8 x 18.6 x 12.8 inches
Cooling Capacity: 6000 BTU

0.627 in^3 per BTU
Noria's claimed improvement compared to this Frigidaire: 49%

But wait, there are others:
Frigidaire FFRE0833S1
(18.5*17.5*13.4)/8000 = 0.542 in^3 per BTU
Noria's claimed improvement compared to this: 41%

Danby DAC080B5WDB
(16.8*18.5*13.4)/8000 = 0.521 in^3 per BTU
Noria's claimed improvement compared to this: 39%

Frigidaire FFRE1233S1
(19*21.5*14.5)/12000 = .494 in^3 per BTU
Noria's claimed improvement compared to this: 36%
(This is the best volumetric power density cheap window AC number I found in a 10-minute search.)

Now I have a few rhetorical questions and comments for you. No need to reply, I'm not following the thread after this:

Do you have an understanding about the third exponent in volumetric measurements, and its implications?

Where is the source for the implied claim that existing machines are totally size-optimized for every millimeter, and, not for - OMG - price? (A personal experience: I'm running my AC unit without the cover, because it has a stupid form and the casing mostly holds dead space inside. Its volume down by at least 30-40% just by removing the stupidly designed cover.)

Do you realize that the measurements listed are inaccurate, tend to be rounded, sometimes to half an inch? A 36% volumetric difference might easily be 45%, or 25%.

Have you seen a size difference of a 50/60Hz AC compressor, and a new-generation inverter-driven BLDC compressor of same size, in a modern AC unit?

How do you base the idea that the existing window machines represent the highest evolution of compressor technology, such as BLDC compressors with inverter drive? I'm not saying Noria implements these, but it's a possible implementation.

You can quickly show, to high certainty, that something likely is going to be physically impossible if they claim an improvement of 1000%.

But how do you instantly know, without doing the actual full design math, that a claimed 36% increase in volumetric power density (11% linear increase in each dimension satisfies this condition, for example) is completely impossible, by laws of physics? Of course you don't. You are just full of bullshit.

I can instantly see many of technical details I could do to increase the power density, if I wanted to, like:

* Use an inverter drive, drive the compressor motor at higher frequency; optimize the motor lamination thickness and core material to decrease core losses again. This easily reduces the motor size to 1/3, BTDT.

* Optimize the inverter size using modern semiconductor technology. I can fit a 1kW inverter drive in 0.5x1x3 inch area.

* Change the evaporator and condenser coil spreader leafs from aluminum to copper; make them couple better to the copper pipes, using thermal interface materials, or even welding or soldering the leafs. The typical way of coupling kinda sucks. It's cheap to manufacture; they just use bigger coils to compensate.

* Use modern fan design. Classical implementations require a lot of dead space to direct the airflow to the full condenser/evaporator coil, from one centrifugal or radial fan. Centrifugal fan itself has a good airflow-to-volume ratio, but when equipped with the required air channels, it isn't so good anymore. Besides, they tend to again use 50/60Hz induction motors for these fans. For a point of comparison, look for modern laptop cooling (airflow to volume ratio).

* Use modern electronics to create the front panels. These are classically HUGE, including mechanical knobs, or deep components like DIP 7-segment LED displays. Not uncommon at all that the front panel unit is 10x4x1 inches alone.


Quote
the average market price for such a window unit or (10kbtu or 1HP AC unit) is around $250. Noria asked $600, $350 more because it has bluetooth and wifi IC in it and some colorful leds.

It didn't occur to you that maybe, just maybe, the higher price could be because of, you know, optimization work went into power density, instead of price. Just sayin'. It would be a logical conclusion.

(In reality, I agree with you that it's likely a con, and the price went into the colorful leds. I don't like them either. But this is besides the point.)

The fact they had to change the specs means they clearly didn't make it. But, the circle jerk club is still wrong, as clearly shown. After this analysis I can say with full confidence that the answer to the question in the title, is it too good to be true, is no; the specifications are completely feasible and achievable by good engineering and optimization.

Make your own conclusions.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 02:23:32 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline edy

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2019, 05:11:44 pm »
Oh, but someone's dad knows better, so Frigidaire is completely lying and scamming us because dad laws of physics say so!

 :-DD    Yes, dad laws of physics always win in my book!  And it's not Frigidaire that is scamming/lying... last I checked they actually delivered working products to the market.

Anyways, assuming it is possible to achieve what Noria set out to do... laws of physics aside, where's the result? It only makes the argument for them worse... That is, they are now without any result for something that is physically possible! Which is worse? To try to do something physically impossible and fail, or to just take money when you could have accomplished something possible within laws of physics and current tech?  :-//

I'm all for Noria succeeding... this will be good for everyone. I sincerely hope it comes to fruition. But each day that passes, my confidence that we will get something anywhere close to the original specs and size and cooling capacity that Noria originally promised diminishes.

And by the way, if it was just a matter of taking out the "dead space" in between the components in the air-conditioner and using a few smaller more efficient newly available components to shrink it down 30-40%, don't you think it would have been possible already after all this money and time? Minus all the Wifi/Bluetooth electronic circuit, how hard do you think it is to create the RAW air-conditioner and prove it works? Then add all the other stuff (app, Wifi, fancy enclosure) later.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 05:18:01 pm by edy »
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2019, 05:55:54 pm »
Anyways, assuming it is possible to achieve what Noria set out to do... laws of physics aside, where's the result? It only makes the argument for them worse... That is, they are now without any result for something that is physically possible! Which is worse? To try to do something physically impossible and fail, or to just take money when you could have accomplished something possible within laws of physics and current tech?  :-//
ditto!
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Offline edy

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2019, 06:30:21 pm »
Look what I found at Walmart Canada for $139 CA (like less than $100 US) (Midea 5000 BTU A/C):

https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/midea-5000-btu-window-air-conditioner/6000199090296?cmpid=sem_google_en_pla_none_1075009830_54173645458_None&gclsrc=aw.ds&&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8q2V4NfQ4wIVwxx9Ch0snQrREAQYASABEgJ8UfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds




Midea 5000 BTU A/C as per Wal-Mart website Dimensions and weight:

Assembled Height     12.05 in
Assembled Length     13.19 in
Assembled Width       15.98 in
Assembled Weight     35.27 lb


Now the Kapsul W5 info found on the site: https://www.kapsulair.com/faq



This has been revised since the original campaign to be more within realistic (not breaking the law of physics) specifications. Remember still on their Noria page (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kurt/noria-cool-redefined/description) it still says 5.8''H x 18.25''W x 15''D and weight approx. 30 lb, which itself may have changed since the original campaign started (I'm sure someone can confirm if this size/weight has crept up during the last few years without anyone noticing website modifications).

Anyways, their Kapsul W5 specs are as follows:

Height: Face: 7.28" Adapter band: 7.68"
Width: 19.69"
Depth: Body of unit is 22" (8" of that comes into the room, the rest extends through the wall and outside.) 23.87" includes the faceplate and temperature knob.
Weight: 40 lbs (even weight distribution and handles at each end make it easy to carry and even possible to hold with one hand.)

Ok now let's compare dimensions:

               Midea           Kapsul
Height     12.05 in         7.28 in
Length     13.19 in        19.69 in
Width       15.98 in        22.00 in
Weight     35.27 lb        40.00 lb

WHHAAAATTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!  |O   :-DD   |O   :-DD   |O   :-DD   |O

How is this freakingly possible??? Somebody quick go to Walmart and buy a Midea and re-arrange the insides to the shape of a Kapsul and send it to them... you have solved the problem and saved their Kickstarter/IndieGogo campaign!  :-DD

Noria volume:           1587.75 cu in  @ ~30 lb         (5.8 x 18.25 x 15)
Midea volume:           2540 cu in @ ~35 lb            (12.05 x 13.19 x 15.98)
Kapsul W5 volume:    3153 cu in @ ~ 40 lb           (7.28 x 19.69 x 22)

WOW!  :palm:  Their original "Noria" size was HALF the size of what they are now pushing as the Kapsul W5, and you can pick up a Midea from Wal-Mart today for about $100 US which is SMALLER than a Kapsul W5 and LIGHTER.  :palm:  It's too bad they weren't honest with their specs at the time they launched their campaign. Maybe they wouldn't have had as many backers. But since when is honesty a requirement of Kickstarter/IndieGogo campaigns?

So I guess it is not the laws of physics limiting them... it's the laws of morality!  :box:

Dad-Cad says a Midea and Kapsul W5 is physically possible, but a 40% reduction in size compared to the Midea (which is what Noria wanted us to believe) is not. This all boils back to Noria's original claims of size and weight. I'm pretty confident Kapsul W5 can be delivered... at this point you would have to be completely incompetent or crooks or both not to be able to release an A/C that is larger and weighs more than what is already available. Let's hope the Kickstarter and IndieGoGo backers at least receive a Kapsul W5 for their troubles, or send them a Midea in the meantime.  :-DD
« Last Edit: July 25, 2019, 06:53:54 pm by edy »
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2019, 04:41:13 am »
if they go the waterseer way type of R&D... by taking parts apart and put into their capsule sheet hole... they should already deliver long time ago with somewhat crippled btu, but who cares? as long as they put 5000 btu sticker on top of it and backers are happy with the placebo effect... here the closest thing so far to 1500 cu.inch... 3072BTU Window Air Conditioner with excess $200-300 of the crowd fund cost, they can enjoy the retirement happy life with the $1M+ china Jho Low easy come easy go everybody happy way...
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2019, 06:25:40 pm »
i just found a smaller version of this. much smaller but much cooler. who will have the bragging right?
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2019, 08:27:29 pm »
Something like this could have had potential if it was marketed and designed right.   There is not much as far as battery operated A/C units, ex: for small off grid setups.  A ~500BTU unit that runs on a 12v BLDC (to vary cooling capacity) could be very useful for say, tent camping.  could run off a small solar setup and you could adjust the power usage by slowing down the compressor.  Don't try to be fancy and use "revolutionary" tech, make it use a standard refrigeration cycle, just make it lower capacity/power usage and make it run on DC.

Essentially make it like a portable with two 1" air hoses (air inlet/outlet).   Essentially it would be a mini high velocity system.
 

Offline Dave3

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2020, 08:45:06 pm »
No one is left out in the cold

In September 2019, Noria raised over $3 million equity as noted in the SEC filings.

In April 2020, Noria responded to a Kickstarter backer, "No one is out in the cold. We are doing our best despite the circumstances we've faced and are currently facing. We all feel and understand everyone's frustration and disappointment. More updates will be provided as they come along. - JB"

We didn't find any customers who have received units yet. But on 29 April 2020 Kapsul posted

"The first backers received their units last week, and we will be shipping more units out each week from now until the end of our production run later this summer."

"When you made your pledge there was not a 25% tariff in place on goods from China. "

"Tooling wound up being $1,500,000, which is — you already did the math — $1,000,000 more than we budgeted."

"Our first container (420 units) is scheduled to ship by or before May 15...

Our next three containers are shipping by the end of May.

Two more are shipping in the beginning of June.

After that we are not entirely sure…

Our plan for the summer is twenty containers. This quantity allows us to fulfill every backer order and we are working to get as many containers made and shipped as possible."

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1789212/000178921219000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kurt/noria-cool-redefined/posts/2823616

 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #60 on: May 02, 2020, 04:10:23 am »
No one is left out in the cold
so noria is a good heater?
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #61 on: May 02, 2020, 07:40:47 am »
No one is left out in the cold
so noria is a good heater?

Any AC unit is a heater if you reverse the placement of the exchanger sides. ;)
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #62 on: May 02, 2020, 10:11:46 am »
No one is left out in the cold
so noria is a good heater?
Any AC unit is a heater if you reverse the placement of the exchanger sides. ;)
a good heater is a good heater in both direction... so no one left in the cold inside and outside.. yes? btw i've purchased a floor standing AC unit a while ago, i concluded it as inefficient in both term electricity usage and cooling power per volume of room space. its a good spot cooler though but once its off, the room is hot again. and to compensate for its small size but yet want to provide high CFM air, so the blower sounds like a full powered vaccum cleaner. going more smaller like a noria, i can now make some projection, from full wall mounted split unit, down to the floor standing unit, down to a  noria.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 10:16:32 am by Mechatrommer »
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #63 on: May 02, 2020, 03:05:51 pm »
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Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #64 on: May 02, 2020, 03:49:01 pm »
watched that. you have any idea how much work i put on it in the last (year end) holiday? see attached i've done more (dust filtering everywhere and elevated evaporator intake) now it looks a bit funny and less portable, but i tried to make them easily dismantled in case in occasions that its needed in another room. its now in another room much smaller after about a year screaming and blowing to my nose in the lab. when i first installed it, the SWMBO is like :palm: what the heck are you doing with it? but now she is happier since that is the room where she always in, even though she still has no clue what is going on and what principles with those add-ons. the lab now got the "properly made" wall split unit. i have and felt both of them still in operation today so i think you better trust me when i say its inefficient :'( i even charted both power consumption using current clamp, the smaller floor standing is as much power to the split unit when the compressor is activated, 10-25% work operation on wall split unit can provide much much more cooled space compared to 100% working floor standing at a given time. ymmv.
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Offline Dave3

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2020, 07:42:59 pm »
@Mechatrommer - Would you get a bit better performance by

1. Swapping outside hoses for intake and exhaust? Current intake will suck in some hot rising exhaust.

2. Insulating the outside hoses, particularly the hot exhaust hose (that is a lot of heating surface area!)

3. Increasing the size of the inside cardboard intake?

4. If you are filtering the air, I use a few tricks to get long life of filters. I use a cheap washable foam prefilter. Over that I use some lycra cloth. They get dirty quickly so need to be quickly vacuumed frequently else airflow drops to nothing. This guy has a ton of air filter hacks

http://www.air-purifier-power.com/
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2020, 09:27:24 pm »
1. Swapping outside hoses for intake and exhaust? Current intake will suck in some hot rising exhaust.
thanks for your suggestion. but i think i've thought about it. i know ideally hot air should be on top. but i have kids in the house, there is a risk they will poke something in if i put the intake hose at below since the height is within their reach, i spent many hours just to fix things in the house damaged by them, maybe this is whats called like father like sons. further the hot exhaust is so fast blowing, that the hot air will blend with outside air in no time and becomes cooler before they will have a chance to get in back through intake port (if they can). and further, the outside directly where the exhaust blows is where we hang our washed clothes so i think its better for it to be there blowing wet clothes to dry fast. ;D

2. Insulating the outside hoses, particularly the hot exhaust hose (that is a lot of heating surface area!)
there is no outside hoses. the inside hoses just fitted directly on the window cover. it has fitting there for the hoses they came together when i bought them. and the hot exhaust hose is not that hot so i dont think to fully cover it. it will be harder to move it around just for maybe less than 1% of efficiency improvement. i have an earlier post in this thread linking a setup made by another member in this forum where he fully covered his hoses with some thick insulation, but i dont think i want that kind of bulkness.

3. Increasing the size of the inside cardboard intake?
its possible by cutting out the cardboard but i guess its already big enough i dont see much resistance by the filter. when i think its needed, then its an easy job to dismantle and cut. the filter is just some sort of soft paper used/sold in flower shop to make flowers bag or something. for about 6'x4' its only about 50 cents enough to make filter for both the floor standing and my wall mount split unit, i still got some leftover. i can see the filter used by the split unit in the lab is now brownish quick covered with dust it will soon need replacement. the other room is very clean the filter is still white. the filter for condenser intake is some brand car's AC air filter glued together to fit the internal fitting in the diy cardboard box behind the AC unit just before reaching the condenser, it should be washable with air blow or water i havent check it visually, the sign is only how strong the exhaust air is, if i feel some blockage (less airflow on exhaust) that should be a sign for cleaning.

4. If you are filtering the air, I use a few tricks to get long life of filters. I use a cheap washable foam prefilter. Over that I use some lycra cloth. They get dirty quickly so need to be quickly vacuumed frequently else airflow drops to nothing. This guy has a ton of air filter hacks
http://www.air-purifier-power.com/
yup. my cheap filter has very little resistance we can see through it, but it should be much better than nothing at all. i dont want to put much resistance to the airflow, there will be slight smaller dust passing through but that is i'm willing to take. if cleaner air is needed, more robust filter structure will be needed but the drawback is airflow resistance i'll need to increase opening area as you suggested, but this is a compromise for me. best regards.

btw, i also bought a cheap china air purifier for my lab, its a bit noisy when working with its underpowered fan, 3 layers filter with activated charcoal and another greenish layer similar to the on face mask, i dont know, disinfectant maybe or what i dont really care i only need cleaner air since my lab is so stubborn after what i've done to combat dust, they are still coming in fast.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2020, 09:39:29 pm by Mechatrommer »
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Offline Dave3

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #67 on: May 02, 2020, 11:20:45 pm »
Thanks for taking me through your thought process! I do some thermal work on laptops and home air purifiers for a hobby so this is a good bundling of similar challenges.

As you note, those portable AC units are suboptimal but sometimes the best option.

They use "window rattlers" all over NYC. They are terribly noisy but cheap and somewhat more efficient and powerful.

In Japan and Europe I only see split systems. Some of the newer models are superb.
 
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Online dunkemhigh

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Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #68 on: May 03, 2020, 02:03:59 pm »


Why the hell can't thunderfoot make videos like that? I'd watch 'em all instead of just running away at the mere mention of his name.
 


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