Author Topic: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?  (Read 15850 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline NiHaoMike

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5530
  • Country: us
  • "Don't turn it on - Take it apart!"
    • Facebook Page
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2016, 08:50:56 pm »
They could be using deeper coils to get the same surface area, at the cost of higher restriction.

Where I think they're really losing out on efficiency is the way they're bouncing the cold air off the ceiling. A design that would make more sense is to draw from the top/sides/bottom and blow out the front, with stepper motors controlling the vents. Add a PIR array (really low resolution thermal camera) to automatically detect where to direct the cooling to where it's needed. Drive the compressor off an inverter so it can be throttled back to match demand exactly. You'll basically end up with something that works like a fancy Gree mini split, just a lot easier to install.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline rollatorwieltje

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 571
  • Country: nl
  • I brick your boards.
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2018, 02:30:57 am »
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/kapsul-cool-redefined-design#/updates/all

Choo choo, the failtrain is nearing it's destination. Endless delays, renamed project, deleted social media...
 

Offline Red Squirrel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2254
  • Country: ca
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2018, 05:25:44 am »
They should have called it Kaput.  >:D
 

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1366
  • Country: ca
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2018, 07:53:27 pm »
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/kapsul-cool-redefined-design#/updates/all

Choo choo, the failtrain is nearing it's destination. Endless delays, renamed project, deleted social media...


Quote
TWO: We didn’t want to give you uncertain information without real dates, but we need you to know that there is now NO WAY that we are going to deliver by summer of 2018. We know how flipping frustrated and disappointed many of you are to hear that. We feel it too. I can say that our founders are currently in China working on our factory order and will have an actual, final, very real delivery date when they return and the ink is dry on the page. By or before April 15, we shall release a moment by moment timeline of the birth and delivery of your air conditioner.

THREE: We are really, tremendously, profoundly sorry about being so late. We want to try to compensate and thank you in some tangible way for sticking with us through this saga and making it possible to create the most amazing air conditioner ever built by anyone... anywhere... period. For some of you, we recognize that this is just a bridge too far and you can take no more! We will work hard to help you too. All that said …I’d love your input. Tell me how we can repay you for your support, kindness and trust.
...
P.S. For those of you who are wondering exactly what’s causing all these delays, I’m working on a detailed report of the challenges we’ve faced and how we’ve navigated them. Look for that in a future update (coming soon!) along with photos of our recent adventures in China.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9200
  • Country: us
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2018, 08:51:44 pm »
Yes I know you do have some hinges. ;)
But the sliders are historically the far most common, as far as I 've seen on TV at least.  :P

I don't recall ever seeing a window that wasn't sliding, unless you count camper trailers or old mobile homes. I've been to a number of parts of the US, most of the populated areas in Western Canada and part of the UK and sliding windows seem to be pretty standard. I'm not sure how you'd make a window AC unit for a window that didn't slide.
 

Offline Delta

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1225
  • Country: gb
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #30 on: April 05, 2018, 09:10:20 pm »
And just like Batterooiser, you cannae change the laws of physics!
 

Offline edavid

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2815
  • Country: us
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #31 on: April 06, 2018, 03:50:55 am »
I don't recall ever seeing a window that wasn't sliding, unless you count camper trailers or old mobile homes. I've been to a number of parts of the US, most of the populated areas in Western Canada and part of the UK and sliding windows seem to be pretty standard.

You've never seen casement windows  :-//

https://www.andersenwindows.com/windows-and-doors/windows/casement-windows/

Quote
I'm not sure how you'd make a window AC unit for a window that didn't slide.

https://www.ajmadison.com/guides/air_conditioner/window/
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9200
  • Country: us
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #32 on: April 06, 2018, 04:06:30 am »
Oh I guess I have seen casement windows, now that I think about it there are a couple of them in my mom's house. They're certainly rare around here though, the vast majority are sliding.
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2018, 05:56:04 pm »
I found this article but it is a bit old:

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2017/04/18/noria-air-conditioner-kickstarter-kurt-swanson/

It explains a lot about the concerns that it may be a scam, comments from backers due to the delays, reply by Swanson who is leading up the Noria venture. They raised $2.2 million and it seems they are disappearing quietly into the night with all that money.
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline Dave3

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 29
  • Country: au
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2019, 01:38:06 am »
As the summer heat ramps in once again in the northern hemisphere, yet another deadline has slipped by Noria (now Kapsul).

In a 5 February 2019 update letter, the CEO claims to have raised another $3m of the $4m needed to get this to market. There were a few more recent updates but those are for "investors" only. A few of the commenters noted that updated shipping address and refund details are not so critical at this point lol.

The Kapsul design is sleek and attractive. I like the lower profile but reduced air intake will hit efficiency, noise, and power. These guys deserve some recognition for trying to "revolutionize" commodity window air conditioners with a budget of just a few million dollars.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kurt/noria-cool-redefined/posts/2407626
 

Offline Mechatrommer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9073
  • Country: my
  • reassessing directives...
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2019, 03:12:00 am »
5000 btu will take ages to cool a room like my lab here (very small about 10 x 15') guesstimation from my $250 9000 btu portable here that struggles to do the job, it only good for spot cooling, turn it off? its hot again. an excuse that need more fund for that small unit is simply bollock imho or they just got their workflow wrong. welcome to washington corporation, there goes 2M vanish into the thin air.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2010
  • Country: fi
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2019, 10:44:18 am »
I realized I'm replying to an old case, but as my points are completely valid regardless and may apply to any new such product, I leave this here:

If the big AC suppliers cannot make a window unit small, why whould a random kickstarter campain be able to do it?

This reasoning is stupid beyond belief, as is this:

You must ask yourself. If they can do it for $300, why aren't they around already?

Almost all game changing innovation, ever, has been about an originally small player being able to pull of something the giants can't. Often, they become big themselves.

Big players can put a lot of resources for certain optimizations if they want, but the issue typically is that they don't see the market.

Someone's always the first. Always, with 100% certainty. Hence, the quoted claim is automatically proven wrong.

And just like Batterooiser, you cannae change the laws of physics!

Exactly which law of physics their claims are contradicting?

Give some real engineering arguments, or go home.

I don't see anything fundamentally impossible here, I totally see the point of the product, and having looked at traditional window AC units, I'm 100% certain there is room for optimizing the size and noise level of the products. If they can deliver their specs, I would rather have one (well, without the stupid mobile UI thing.)

For example, the compressor technology has changed significantly, but I'm not aware of many window AC units that take advantage of this. The big players are mostly concentrating on making the two-piece units better and better (and OTOH, improving refrigerators and freezers).

Their power level choice makes perfect sense. Oftentimes, AC units are oversized thinking that bigger is better, but for AC, IMHO, it doesn't work that way. In humid climates especially, a smaller unit which runs less air through the evaporator, keeping it cooler, better removes moisture from the air, which makes it much more comfortable, even if a thermometer still reads fairly high. I have seen massively oversized systems that keep the evaporator near room temp by pushing massive amounts of air through it, cooling the room very well but increasing the RH to over 90%.

In this time of excess energy consumption and overpopulation, we should indeed concentrate making our lives comfortable enough, not bruteforcing a +20 degC indoor temperature during the hottest season. From this viewpoint, I'd rather take a physically small, more quiet, easier to install device, even if it's underpowered, and even if it fails to provide a nice +21degC during the hottest times.

The market (and Kickstarter) is literally saturated with fake cooling devices (which are either completely con devices, or "work" based on humidifying the air, which can reduce the temperature in extremely dry climates, but increase the dew point to make it more uncomfortable.) This is an actual compressor-based device that actually dehumidifies and cools; I welcome any innovation to make these real compressor units smaller, because they tend to be too big.

Could they, or others succeed in doing a device with these specs robustly (or at all!), is another question completely. No one's saying it's an easy task. The odds of any new business failing are nearly 100%. And odds for any business on Kickstarter being or becoming a scam are high. But the arguments I see in this thread are very poor, except a few good points like the calculation of the outer measurements of similar competitors.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 11:12:21 am by Siwastaja »
 

Offline Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2010
  • Country: fi
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2019, 10:48:28 am »
5000 btu will take ages to cool a room like my lab here (very small about 10 x 15') guesstimation from my $250 9000 btu portable here that struggles to do the job

It's because of the inherent flaw in the portable machines, you don't get the benefit of the full 9000 btu cooling power because it's sucking in more hot air. Worst case, the net effect is negative and you only get the benefit of localized cooling by sitting right in the breeze. Totally sucks. Literally.

A proper 5000btu two-section unit is likely more powerful in cooling than the classical 9000 btu portable unit, with the advantage of saving energy.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 11:06:21 am by Siwastaja »
 

Online donotdespisethesnake

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 877
  • Country: gb
  • Embedded stuff
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2019, 12:03:01 pm »
Almost all game changing innovation, ever, has been about an originally small player being able to pull of something the giants can't. Often, they become big themselves.

Big players can put a lot of resources for certain optimizations if they want, but the issue typically is that they don't see the market.

Someone's always the first. Always, with 100% certainty. Hence, the quoted claim is automatically proven wrong.

I think you are just trolling, you seem to enjoy playing Devils advocate. You reasoning is non-sensical.

Almost all failed business startups are about a small player thinking they can pull off something the giants can't, and failing...
Bob
"All you said is just a bunch of opinions."
 
The following users thanked this post: Cyberdragon

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4361
  • Country: nl
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2019, 03:05:15 pm »
A proper 5000btu two-section unit is likely more powerful in cooling
And a window unit is a proper two section unit, only the refrigerant crosses from inside to out and vice versa.
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline Mechatrommer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9073
  • Country: my
  • reassessing directives...
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2019, 04:20:27 pm »
It's because of the inherent flaw in the portable machines, you don't get the benefit of the full 9000 btu cooling power because it's sucking in more hot air. Worst case, the net effect is negative and you only get the benefit of localized cooling by sitting right in the breeze. Totally sucks. Literally.
i believe a/c manufacturers know what they are doing, and yes there are compromise (not flaw) to get the "portability" feature, but with proper setup or modification, the compromise effect can be reduced, so is the portability unfortunately. the one i bought is single outlet i mean it only push hot air (after cooling the condenser) to outside, but has to suck room (already cooled) air to do so. so yeah, room air is circulating and has to suck normal/hotter air from outside to compensate negative room pressure created by the process. to reduce this effect, i'm thinking to mod the unit similar idea to Squirel posted 3 years ago.

this way, the inside air stay cool, the condenser is cooled using outside air, then dumped to another outside again. there are off the shelf double outlet unit like this but unfortunately its not available in my place when i was looking for it...





A proper 5000btu two-section unit is likely more powerful in cooling than the classical 9000 btu portable unit, with the advantage of saving energy.
i wont bet my money on device that small regardless. anyway, after 3 years of story, it seems its not coming anytime soon, the old man has to look for another solution or walk around costco if he cant stand years of waiting. and i think if this thing is practical, a/c manufacturers already do it.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 04:29:38 pm by Mechatrommer »
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4361
  • Country: nl
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2019, 01:11:26 pm »
There's mini splits for caravans which aren't that far off weight wise (27kg for 7000 btu) and 500 Watt compressors are pretty small ... it's more a question of marketing. No one has ever seen a market for a residential unit this low power.

There probably isn't a market without the kickstarter marketing to idiots angle. Whether it's 20 kg or 40 kg I'd need a strong bracket regardless and how often will this fit when an existing small window unit won't?
 

Offline SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3170
  • Country: fr
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2019, 01:33:34 pm »
SO... did they ever deliver? ;D
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2019, 11:46:23 pm »
Doesn't look like it. I'm reading the updates and they are still having trouble getting money. What are they working on? The key engineering? If they even built one functioning unit that is functioning and performing according to their claimed design specs, that would be enough to convince any investor or group to back them. I don't think they have a working unit, and the entire crowd-funding campaign (as we have seen with MANY OTHER failed projects) is used for R & D only to realize years later that it is not possible to technologically overcome these laws of physics limitations. We have seen this time and time again.

Build just one working prototype (crude as it may look) that is performing and has the size you want, and the money will flow in to build the plastic molding, make the software app, reduce costs due to scale of production, etc. These people on Kickstarter and IndieGogo work BACKWARDS. First they get some artists and marketing wankers to make beautiful renders and come up with specs that don't look too far off existing expectations, and then they take everybody's money and screw around with it for several years to see if it is possible.


Here is an interview with Kurt Swanson about rebranding Noria to Kapsul:

https://artofthekickstart.com/rebranding-a-company-and-overcoming-challenges-with-kurt-swanson-aotk-244/



Someone previously posted....

Quote
Exactly which law of physics their claims are contradicting?

Give some real engineering arguments, or go home.

I don't see anything fundamentally impossible here, I totally see the point of the product, and having looked at traditional window AC units, I'm 100% certain there is room for optimizing the size and noise level of the products. If they can deliver their specs, I would rather have one (well, without the stupid mobile UI thing.)

Well I can tell you that anyone who does the math and has an HVAC engineering degree will agree with my father, who lives an hour out of Philadelphia and is an experienced HVAC designer (having developed numerous A/C units from small up to 20 TON units that go on buildings)... and he says that what they are claiming to do is beyond the laws of physics.

And that is ultimately why after 3 years and millions and millions of dollars they haven't come up with anything. Their design is ultimately not capable of what they are trying to achieve, and that is due to a limitation in the physical requirements of the refrigerant circuit flow, amount of heat exchange that can occur during a given amount of time, the air flow and surface area of the coils, etc... these are fundamental HVAC principles and laws of thermodynamics that experienced HVAC engineers for decades have been unable to overcome.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2019, 12:03:19 am by edy »
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3170
  • Country: fr
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2019, 12:57:29 pm »
Sad story.Looks like it will end up in the same cemetery as solar roads... ;D
 

Offline Siwastaja

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2010
  • Country: fi
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2019, 02:27:56 pm »
Quote
Someone's always the first. Always, with 100% certainty. Hence, the quoted claim is automatically proven wrong.

I think you are just trolling, you seem to enjoy playing Devils advocate. You reasoning is non-sensical.

No, my comment was not a trolling, nor non-sensical, because it was a simple fact based on physical reality, not opinion.

The classical argument that something cannot happen because it hasn't already happened is totally nonsensical and objectively untrue. Someone is always first, by definition. (Another logical possibility is that nothing is ever happening at all. Would you sign that?)

I have hard time understanding how otherwise sensible people fall into this line of thinking again and again. It's probably an emotional phenomenon called "cynicism" taking over the brain and shutting down basic logical fact-checking. I know, I love to be cynical as well, which is exactly why I force myself out of that comfort zone, and force myself to think rationally instead. And people won't like it. They want circlejerk friends, not to be questioned.

Quote
Almost all failed business startups are about a small player thinking they can pull off something the giants can't, and failing...

Of course, and almost all fail, because the number of those who try is orders of magnitude more of those who succeed. It's called competition. And competition is harsh, and developing new things is really difficult where all the details matter. (BTW, it's not about giants that "can't", it's more often about giants that "won't". A big difference. And guess what? Inside the giants, a lot of internal development fails. It's just hidden.)

Yet sometimes breakthroughs happen. Maybe 0.01% of the time. Blue LEDs, for example, that enabled modern low-energy lighting, is an interesting story about a fairly small company playing on a very limited R&D budget, basically very enterpreneur-like one man show within a small company, trying out things, hitting a gold mine and growing as a result. Now they are a large company.

Henry Ford also built his first car at his home. He even failed once with his startup, got more backers and retried. If he had completely failed, we just wouldn't remember him. They are big now. Confirmation bias.


It's easy to shout from the bushes that "this is going to fail", because your odds of being right are so good, almost 100%. It's like placing bets that Usain Bolt's going to run a faster time than me. No shit Sherlock. You were right, congratulations :clap:. Then in the next thread, you are again right, congratulations :clap:. There are words to describe the process: circle jerk, or echo chamber.

But this is meaningless discussion only for your own ego, nothing else.

Actually debunking things, OTOH, is highly respectable, because of so many con devices, often claiming to break laws of physics. In the process, you teach about physics and engineering, and learn yourself. Actual debunking is always based on technical arguments and physical facts. Otherwise, you lose your credibility (outside your small echo chamber) quickly.

Pointing out that startups almost always fail is a meaningless, trivial fact which proves absolutely nothing.

Look, every time someone claims miraculous new battery technology and it's in the media, I'm called and asked have I heard about this amazing new technology. And I reply: "Yes [regardless of whether I actually have heard about it], it's bullshit, not going to actually happen". I base my bets on the 99.99% of the cases not being quick breakthroughs, or usually being outright scams, and of course I have a 100% success rate here, it's easy, just say "no" to everything. But one day it will happen that I'm wrong for once, and I'm eagerly looking for that day.

But circlejerk is only fun for about 5 minutes without actual solid technical arguments. Then it gets boring, nasty, and smelly.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 03:03:58 pm by Siwastaja »
 

Offline Mechatrommer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9073
  • Country: my
  • reassessing directives...
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2019, 05:51:03 pm »
i dont mind startup that fails, i do mind startup that lies, i dont think Mr Ford lied to his backers back then, "investors"? investors get paid each time products sold, crowdfund backers get what?. they promised or give hope that they will deliver. they showed a prototype picture that looked like to be working in the first place, and then ask people's money and say you will get a working unit on this or that date. after years of waiting they came out with a video showing people cadding on a comfy table and PC, on another scene people discussing about the effectiveness of a fan design they just have invented. so where is the working prototype they were showing? right, the money is for feeding them in few years working in R&D for a prototype that never took place. but then when they are very close, they want to rebrand it to some name to fill pile of shit in, and probably sell it to another market region, so whats with backers left with hope? right, they helped the startup to build their business on from ground up, that was the intention wasnt it? objective achieved. with the advent of crowd funding we'll see more and more of this scams on engineering wannabe level with some lame excuses. reminds me of that water from nothing generator and solus 200% efficient heater brought up earlier.
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4361
  • Country: nl
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2019, 06:02:20 pm »
It's not a break through, it's just marketing.

It promises around 3000 cubic inches at 40 pounds for 5000 BTU nominal cooling. A Frigidaire FFRE063ZA1 is around 3750 cubic inches at 45.9 pounds for 6000 BTU nominal cooling. Playing around a bit with airflow and efficiency the remaining distance between those numbers isn't going to be hard to cross.

If they fail to produce it it's because of business reasons, not physics.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2019, 06:05:22 pm by Marco »
 
The following users thanked this post: Siwastaja

Offline Mechatrommer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9073
  • Country: my
  • reassessing directives...
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2019, 06:07:20 pm »
thats not look like something that a lady can grab and hide under the bed... and 40 pounds is heavier than some boat anchor..
if something can select, how cant it be intelligent? if something is intelligent, how cant it exist?
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4361
  • Country: nl
Re: Lightweight Window AirConditioner - Noria - Too good to be true?
« Reply #49 on: July 24, 2019, 06:15:08 pm »
If you have the strength and reach to relatively safely a wrangle Noria into a window you can probably do it with the Frigidaire, either way you're moving 20+ kg into what is likely to be a multi-story window ... you should probably do it with 2 people just to be safe. You'll need to store it in a closet instead of under a bed/couch, big woop.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf