Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?

[Fraser]

Some VT02 trivia for those interested in its design.

The VT-02 isn't so bad if you understand its original objectives and limitations.....at least it actually exists and displays a thermal 'image' unlike Mu

But seriously, the FLUKE offering is not without its uses but IMHO it is massively overpriced considering the BOM. It is also very poor that FLUKE do not clearly state the resolution of the units detector array.

Take a look at my teardown of the IRISYS VT-02 prototypes.  I paid GBP125 for each of them and that is about as much as I would wish to pay for its capabilities. But then take a look at FLUKE's prices for ordinary single point IR thermometers......expensive !

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-vt02-thermal-camera-visual-thermometer-teardown/msg467641/#msg467641

The Mu promised much and delivered nothing. The VT-02 is a British design that delivered on its objective to provide a thermal 'picture' of the heat distribution in an image that is more easily understood than a standard IR thermometer. To compare its technology to a higher pixel count thermal camera is a little like apples and pears. The E4 blows it away even in the standard 80x60 resolution. Basically FLUKE caught a cold with the VT series when FLIR released an affordable thermal camera at the same time. The VT02 is definitely overpriced.

For info, the VT02 uses a British designed and manufactured 31x31 pixel IRISYS Redeye Pyro-electric detector array. In the VT02 the resolution is hobbled to 15x15 where as the full resolution is available on the VT04. Interpolation is used to increase the pixel count of the displayed thermal 'image'. IRISYS managed to create 128x128 pixel images from just 15x15 real pixels in their earlier cameras.

Dewalt also sell the same imaging core in a different case. They are also an demanding an expensive RRP.

http://www.uktoolcentre.co.uk/Shop/p~62383~DCT416S1-10.8v-Imaging-Thermometer-Kit-1.5ah.html?Refid=GoogleShopping&gclid=CImgtbS-mMACFYgIwwodnW8AmQ

A question was asked earlier regarding the expensive parts of a thermal camera. Traditionally it was Optics, Imaging sensor and the Mechanical Stirling Cooler (where required). The expensive diamond turned Germanium optics have been replaced by moulded Chalcogenide glass optics in budget cameras and this has enabled lower retail prices. Such lens materials are used in the FLIR Ex series and VT-02 as well as many other sub $5000 cameras.

Historically it was not unusual for the Germanium lens of a thermal camera to cost several thousands, or tens of thousands, of Dollars depending upon complexity and lens element sizes !

Information is to be found here:

http://www.lightpath.com/infrared-optics.html

Aurora

 

[edavid]

I think we got lost in the details, but the big picture of what I was trying to say was that someone suing Mu for fraud would be able to involve IGG, because IGG profited from the fraud.

Of course any case could involve IGG. But until such time as someone does sue, IGG don't have to do squat, and they know it.
I suspect IGG are not entirely stupid, they would have lawyers advising them on this stuff in general. And in the case of Mu, hey, Mu are giving refunds, that's a pretty darn good defense for IGG I suspect. How could IGG be reasonably expected to suspect there is any fraud happening in any campaign when a company gives refunds when requested?

That doesn't really make a difference.  Madoff gave refunds too.

[coppice]

A question was asked earlier regarding the expensive parts of a thermal camera. Traditionally it was Optics, Imaging sensor and the Mechanical Stirling Cooler (where required). The expensive diamond turned Germanium optics have been replaced by moulded Chalcogenide glass optics in budget cameras and this has enabled lower retail prices. Such lens materials are used in the FLIR Ex series and VT-02 as well as many other sub $5000 cameras.

Historically it was not unusual for the Germanium lens of a thermal camera to cost several thousands, or tens of thousands, of Dollars depending upon complexity and lens element sizes !

It wasn't just the production of the germanium lens which cost a fortune years ago. The material itself did. That cost may have come down with regulations demanding more efficient filtering of coal power station chimneys. I assume they recover a lot more germanium now.

Germanium lens are a pain, as you have to keep them cool. If the sun shines on them they warm up enough to go cloudy at thermal frequencies. I wonder if these new alternatives are better in that regard?

We used to use liquid nitrogen to cool our sensors. A continuous cryo-cooler always seemed like a better idea.

[Fraser]

With regard to Germanium Crystal costs.....totally agree. The Germanium crystals still cost a fortune.

I also used to use Liquid Nitrogen in an Agema Thermovision 880 camera. A Stirling cooler became available at an additional cost. The down side of the mechanical coolers was the running cost. They had a life of between 2000 and 5000 running hours. Rebuilds for the FLIR PM550 were around GBP5000. So roughly GBP1 to GBP2 per hour of use  The mechanical cooler was noisy as well...... little use for the wildlife work that I do ! I still love the clean images that the cooled thermal cameras produced though.

Aurora

[miguelvp]

I'm not sure why silicon lenses are not used. Granted it doesn't go as far as Germanium in the Far Infrared but there is sufficient overlap. There are also other materials but they will require filters to narrow the band.

http://www.edmundoptics.com/technical-resources-center/optics/the-correct-material-for-infrared-applications

Edit: it's funny that table salt works on the FIR as well, but I'll think humidity will be a factor on that one

[mikeselectricstuff]

I believe the Flir Lepton uses a silicon lens

[Fraser]

ZnSe is a very good material for thermal lenses but it requires a filter as it has way too much passband.

IIRC Silicon is OK with Shortwave and maybe Mid Wave thermal imaging but not a good choice for Longwave applications.

http://www.rising-eo.com/english/products/material/Infrared_materials.html

One of the issues that has to be considered with materials that have good transmission in the thermal camera wavelengths is their vulnerability to moisture absorbtion. Many of the materials are hydroscopic and fragile. Some are used for thermal camera viewing windows, but they need to be replaced if contaminated or have too high a moisture uptake.

There has been research into various plastics that may be used for thermal camera applications. One company claims that it has achieved acceptable results with the plastic that is commonly found in PIR Fresnel lenses. At the moment though, moulded glass lenses as detailed above are providing a cost effective solution.   

Aurora

[miguelvp]

Seems like Cleartran (Zinc Sulfide) is a better choice than ZnSe. But the point is that Germanium is not the only player in town.

[Rasz]

ld say the Chinese will definitely be making devices priced like the Mu the day after it launches. :-)

after WHAT launches?

[EEVblog]

Someone in the comments section claims to have a 82 people interested in a lawsuit:

hello all, would you like to join a group like yourselves pursuing a lawsuit against John? I have 82 prospective joiners. we may also have a pro bono law firm as john has money and we would like to have it as he looks to be a liar and a cheat.
If you are interested in joining us email me at johnhdavis AT gmail DOT com
we are also looking into a criminal charge for him and his, defrauding all of us

[Bored@Work]

Someone in the comments section claims to have a 82 people interested in a lawsuit:

hello all, would you like to join a group like yourselves pursuing a lawsuit against John? I have 82 prospective joiners. we may also have a pro bono law firm as john has money and we would like to have it as he looks to be a liar and a cheat.
If you are interested in joining us email me at johnhdavis AT gmail DOT com
we are also looking into a criminal charge for him and his, defrauding all of us

And someone figured out where the money might really went: http://sqipptheline.com/

[firewalker]

They should start a IGG campaign to collect money for a lawyer. 

Alexander.

[EEVblog]

And someone figured out where the money might really went: http://sqipptheline.com/

That app dates to 2012, and is older than the Mu camera campaign.
http://web.archive.org/web/20121101084423/http://www.sqipptheline.com/

[FrankBuss]

For info, the VT02 uses a British designed and manufactured 31x31 pixel IRISYS Redeye Pyro-electric detector array. In the VT02 the resolution is hobbled to 15x15 where as the full resolution is available on the VT04.

That's interesting. Is there a firmware hack to enable the full resolution?

[Fraser]

I have no knowledge of any hacks for the VT02. It hasn't really been popular enough for anyone to want to hack it ! The FLIR Ex series grabbed the attention of most 'experimenters'. I regret I have not got round to dumping the eeprom contents for any sort of investigation. I bought the required in-circuit cable though, so I will get to it some time in the future. The Redeye 6A has an internal ASIC and I fear IRISYS may have configured it for 15x15 output on the VT02. But then again it could be as simple as changing the ID in an eeprom 

Aurora

[lincomatic]

AFAIK all requested refunds were issued in due course. This helps Mu's case greatly in IGG's eyes I'm sure.

Really? I have sent emails to  marcus@muoptics.com twice, and have yet to receive a reply. Could you tell me how others were able to obtain a refund?

[CanadianAvenger]

AFAIK all requested refunds were issued in due course. This helps Mu's case greatly in IGG's eyes I'm sure.

Really? I have sent emails to  marcus@muoptics.com twice, and have yet to receive a reply. Could you tell me how others were able to obtain a refund?

Those that got refunds, did so via messaging Marcus. Having said that, it looks like you may have waited too long, and the refund ship has sailed off into the sunset.

[CanadianAvenger]

Is everyone ready?  We have an update! Just showed up in my mailbox, looks like John is back from the dead.

Hello Everyone,

Two weeks from today we'll have the first public showing of the camera at an event where we expect to receive significant feedback and publicity.  Shortly after that weeklong event, we'll be working towards announcing our production schedule.

Thank you all for your patience.

John McGrath

[lincomatic]

Amazing (coincidence?). I bombarded all of the members of their team with complaints about the lack of updates and requests for a refund a few hours ago. If they do finally ship, I hope it's not another disaster like Kreyos.

[EEVblog]

Two weeks from today we'll have the first public showing of the camera at an event where we expect to receive significant feedback and publicity.  Shortly after that weeklong event, we'll be working towards announcing our production schedule.

But they still can't show anything to the backers who gave them the money? 
What event? Where? 

[CanadianAvenger]

Amazing (coincidence?). I bombarded all of the members of their team with complaints about the lack of updates and requests for a refund a few hours ago. If they do finally ship, I hope it's not another disaster like Kreyos.

There's also been a fair amount of talk of potential legal proceedings and Mu's vulnerability to it, due to their silence, in the comments.  Either way, it's the usual grease the wheels when the backers get too irate in public. I'm not going to hold my breath, but it should make for an interesting 2 weeks, with what I suspect will be an anti-climactic end.

[EEVblog]

Either way, it's the usual grease the wheels when the backers get too irate in public. I'm not going to hold my breath, but it should make for an interesting 2 weeks, with what I suspect will be an anti-climactic end.

If they have nothing then they are just digging their hole further. So I suspect they have something, but as has always been the case, it's far production ready.
Even the update says it all:

Two weeks from today

Buys us another two weeks.

we'll have the first public showing of the camera at an event

Which we won't name, so it obviously can't be that public.
And of course we can't show you anything before then, and possibly after either.

where we expect to receive significant feedback and publicity.

Feedback = an opportunity to go back to the drawing board.

Shortly after that weeklong event,

That buys us an extra week, along with however we define "shortly".

we'll be working towards announcing our production schedule.

So after the 2 weeks + 1 week event + "shortly" (let's say 1 month) we'll start to work toward announcing some sort of production schedule.
So not actually announcing anything, or shipping anything, but "working toward" announcing!
And still after a year and half, and two weeks away from a public demo, they still haven't shown a single thermal image

[Hypernova]

What week long event is taking place around this time of year?

Or maybe they are referring to the cruise they are take on the Caribbeans with backer money.

[Bored@Work]

where we expect to receive significant feedback and publicity.

Feedback = an opportunity to go back to the drawing board.

publicity = opportunity to collect fresh money from new victims.

Is that their game? Another investment round?

[London Lad]

Come on give them a chance, it takes time to cram a Flir One's guts into their casework!