Author Topic: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?  (Read 377730 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sunnyhighway

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 276
  • Country: nl
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1075 on: August 26, 2014, 08:01:48 am »
Come on give them a chance, it takes time to cram a Flir One's guts into their casework!

Far too difficult for them.
They 'll go for a can of spray paint and some "Mu Thermal Camera" stickers.
 

Offline CanadianAvenger

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 178
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1076 on: August 26, 2014, 11:04:09 am »
Either way, it's the usual grease the wheels when the backers get too irate in public. I'm not going to hold my breath, but it should make for an interesting 2 weeks, with what I suspect will be an anti-climactic end.

If they have nothing then they are just digging their hole further. So I suspect they have something, but as has always been the case, it's far production ready.
Even the update says it all:
Quote
Two weeks from today

Buys us another two weeks.

Quote
we'll have the first public showing of the camera at an event

Which we won't name, so it obviously can't be that public.
And of course we can't show you anything before then, and possibly after either.


If you recall way back at the start of this whole thing they were going to premiere the camera at CES. [they never showed]  I have zero faith that they'll have anything to show in two weekks, much less providing an update in two weeks. So far they have not met a single date with any of their promises.

 

Offline FrankBuss

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2212
  • Country: de
    • Frank Buss
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1077 on: August 26, 2014, 04:00:03 pm »
And still after a year and half, and two weeks away from a public demo, they still haven't shown a single thermal image ::)
There was a thermal image in the next to last update 3 moths ago:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs#activity
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Electronics, hiking, retro-computing, electronic music etc.: https://www.youtube.com/c/FrankBussProgrammer
 

Offline macgyver0815

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 21
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1078 on: August 26, 2014, 04:17:40 pm »
And still after a year and half, and two weeks away from a public demo, they still haven't shown a single thermal image ::)
There was a thermal image in the next to last update 3 moths ago:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs#activity

But that was most likely fake. You know, they work for a visual effects company, this is very easy for them to do (even I could do it and I am not a pro at this).

 

Offline sleemanj

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2353
  • Country: nz
  • Professional tightwad.
    • The electronics hobby components I sell.
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1079 on: August 26, 2014, 11:38:12 pm »
There was a thermal image in the next to last update 3 moths ago:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs#activity

If you think that thermal image looks in any way not a photoshop (or rather, MS Paint) job, I have a lovely bridge to sell you.
~~~
EEVBlog Members - get yourself 10% discount off all my electronic components for sale just use the Buy Direct links and use Coupon Code "eevblog" during checkout.  Shipping from New Zealand, international orders welcome :-)
 

Offline callipso

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Country: cz
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1080 on: August 27, 2014, 11:50:38 am »
Hey guys!

Even though I didn't back them, they totally sent me a pre-production unit to review! I'm under an NDA, so don't expect any pictures of the HW, but check out the picture I took!

Just don't check the EXIF - NDA, you know!
I wonder... **BOOM
 

Offline callipso

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Country: cz
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1081 on: August 27, 2014, 11:51:22 am »
Think I might make that my profile pic...
I wonder... **BOOM
 

Online Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 855
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1082 on: August 27, 2014, 01:14:01 pm »
Hey guys!

Even though I didn't back them, they totally sent me a pre-production unit to review! I'm under an NDA, so don't expect any pictures of the HW, but check out the picture I took!

Just don't check the EXIF - NDA, you know!

Very nice!  So guess I'll be really happy when I get my rebadged FLIR T400?   :-DD

What a pity I already gave up on them and bought a FLIR E4/E8+.  See attached penguin...
 

Offline callipso

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Country: cz
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1083 on: August 28, 2014, 09:46:46 pm »
Quite ironic, shooting a penguin with a Windows device :D
I wonder... **BOOM
 

Online Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 855
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1084 on: August 28, 2014, 10:08:33 pm »
Quite ironic, shooting a penguin with a Windows device :D
Yep, thankfully no Windows logo is actually visible!
I've actually incorporated embedded Linux boards for extended data logging on the automated penguin monitoring/weighing systems I manage (Phillip Island, Australia).  The Australian Antarctic Division has done the same for the ones used in Antarctica.  We both independently chose boards from Technologic Systems, which I highly recommend.
 

Offline callipso

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Country: cz
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1085 on: August 29, 2014, 09:18:38 am »
I never understood why would they need to cram expensive and bug ridden flawed OS in there, when they could do much better with free, versatile an LIGHTER one, like embedded linux, or maybe a dedicated RTOS like VXworks...

Possibly another micro$oft background deal.
I wonder... **BOOM
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29264
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1086 on: August 29, 2014, 10:14:56 am »
There was a thermal image in the next to last update 3 moths ago:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs#activity

People have analysed that, and the general consensus is that it's fake.
After all the flack they have taken, if they had working device wouldn't you think they'd post a video showing it really working? Instead they do a staged (and likely faked) image.
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29264
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1087 on: August 29, 2014, 10:16:05 am »
Think I might make that my profile pic...

Totally!
 

Offline FrankBuss

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2212
  • Country: de
    • Frank Buss
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1088 on: August 29, 2014, 01:40:06 pm »
I never understood why would they need to cram expensive and bug ridden flawed OS in there, when they could do much better with free, versatile an LIGHTER one, like embedded linux, or maybe a dedicated RTOS like VXworks...

Possibly another micro$oft background deal.
If it is Windows CE, then it is not so bad. Unlike the standard Linux kernel, Windows CE is a real-time system with a deterministic interrupt latency. Agilent Keysight oscilloscopes, uses it, too. And I have used it for a project. The client had a code base in .NET and you can just run these programs on WindowsCE without problems, including most of the Windows services you want to use. You get the full source code of the WindowsCE kernel, too, if you need to change something or want to look how it works in detail (except some pre-compiled libraries and programs).
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Electronics, hiking, retro-computing, electronic music etc.: https://www.youtube.com/c/FrankBussProgrammer
 

Offline ker2x

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 48
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1089 on: August 29, 2014, 01:41:16 pm »
I guess the resale value of my "cheap" 5000€ thermal camera just lost a 0  :rant:
 

Offline Fraser

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8327
  • Country: gb
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1090 on: August 29, 2014, 04:08:01 pm »
I have bought several $50,000+ FLIR thermal cameras for $1000 so your loss could be worse  ;)

Seriously though, the cheaper thermal cameras do seem to maintain a reasonable resale value provided they are full working and in good condition. As has always been the case..... an item is only worth what people will pay for it. In my case I was only willing to pay $1000 for a camera that cost 50 times that when new. Expensive 'top end' industrial equipment tends to plummet in value on the second hand market. Good for me, not so good for the original purchaser.

The 80x60 thermal cameras will not seriously impact on the 320x240 resolution thermal camera values as the difference in image produced is significant. Even 160x120 unlikely to be effected very much. I know that FLIR can produce a 160x120 resolution LEPTON core and that might impact upon higher resolution cameras as, for me, that is the point at which a half decent thermal image is formed. Such a LEPTON core is likely to cost more though. Its all swings and roundabouts really.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11942
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1091 on: August 29, 2014, 04:13:09 pm »
But if Seek Thermal deliver on their promise of a 32Kpixel phone TIC for $250 that could shake things up a bit...
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline Fraser

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8327
  • Country: gb
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1092 on: August 29, 2014, 05:57:21 pm »
Mike,

Totally agree if it delivers on its promises.

Interesting times ahead and I am all for price reduction on this technology  :-+  How great it would be if decent resolution thermal camera cores became as affordable as a good quality CCD based visible light camera.

Thermal cameras that rely upon mobile phones are of less interest to me but I realise that is a mass market that could reduce component prices due to mass production. Much like modern microwave technology that has become cheaper as it saw greater use in the consumer marketplace.
 

Offline Artlav

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 743
  • Country: ru
    • Orbital Designs
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1093 on: August 29, 2014, 06:58:52 pm »
The 80x60 thermal cameras will not seriously impact on the 320x240 resolution thermal camera values as the difference in image produced is significant.
Huh?
I thought modern 80x60 thermal cameras already contain the same 320x240 resolution sensor, and are limited in software?
Hacking the universe since 2008
Having a life since 2013
 

Offline Fraser

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8327
  • Country: gb
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1094 on: August 29, 2014, 07:08:08 pm »
@Artlav,

It has been proven that the FLIR Ex and Exx contain a 320x240 resolution microbolometer that is software limited to a lower resolution via the processing electronics. This situation is not however applicable to all thermal cameras that are sold with less than 320x240 resolution.

The Lepton core is an 80x60 resolution microbolometer. The Testo 88x series are fitted with a 160x120 pixel microbolometer.

Microbolometer manufacturers produce many different resolution FPA's, which one an OEM uses is based upon decisions made at the design stage to meet the envisaged BoM and any savings that a common 320x240 resolution FPA offers. In the case of the Ex series, FLIR obviously decided that the 320x240 was affordable in all models in the series. This is not, however, a universal situation as I have stated.

Also be aware that some cameras state a 320x240 pixel displayed image when they have a lower resolution microbolometer such as 80x60. This is achieved using interpolation and so is not 'true' image resolution.

Aurora
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 07:18:43 pm by Aurora »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11942
  • Country: gb
    • Mike's Electric Stuff
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1095 on: August 29, 2014, 11:16:18 pm »
A problem is that as resolution increases, the cost of the lens needed to make use of it also rises. The lens in the Lepton is only about 3mm dia - I don't know if it's germanium or chalcogenide, but either way there's not much of it.
 
Youtube channel:Taking wierd stuff apart. Very apart.
Mike's Electric Stuff: High voltage, vintage electronics etc.
Day Job: Mostly LEDs
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 29264
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1096 on: August 29, 2014, 11:17:35 pm »
Someone actually spoke to the Mu CEO:
http://www.crowdfundstories.com/2014/08/mu-optics-to-demo-hardware-at-upcoming.html
Predictably a ton of non-answers.
 

Offline firewalker

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2321
  • Country: gr
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1097 on: August 30, 2014, 08:58:02 am »
If they show up with six working thermal imaging cameras... It will mean that they had a working prototype for at least two months. And still they showed no proof of it. WHY?

Unless someone else designed and build the six prototypes with a cost well above their target.

Alexander.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 11:49:16 am by firewalker »
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Online Towger

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1531
  • Country: ie
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1098 on: August 30, 2014, 10:57:55 am »
Being at a show and having production ready prototypes for public to play with are two different things.

Have you seen Mike's Flir One video? There is very little 'electronics' in it. The sensor appears to use a standard phone camera socket. I would not be surprised if it is pin compatible.
 

Offline Fraser

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8327
  • Country: gb
Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1099 on: August 30, 2014, 02:36:44 pm »
Having just read the 'interview' with John, he seems a very slippery character who will not be pinned down on the simplest and most innocent of questions. His concerns over releasing technical details are understandable in the competitive market place into which he is entering BUT you cannot expect to use other peoples money and then not keep them informed of progress with at least a basic prototype demo and some genuine images. Such does not, in any way, compromise his design. Mu totally abuse the term NDA and use it as an ultimate defence against enquiries...pathetic. If he John his company to operate like a 'Black Ops' team, he should not have asked for public funding ! This guy appears a total prat and I am sorry for any who still have money invested in Mu. Can you imagine the aftersales support that Mu will offer IF they ever produce the product ? Don't expect very much....NDA you know !

In the time that the Mu project has been running I have bought a total of 14 used but working thermal cameras (in addition to others already owned) They may have cost me a little more money in some cases, but at least I have products that I can use, rather than empty promises !

It is very sad that John has turned out to be total nightmare for backers, but in my Office we would describe him as a 'NEWARK' (rearrange the letters to reveal an appropriate term !)

Aurora
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 02:44:26 pm by Aurora »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf