Author Topic: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?  (Read 390382 times)

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Offline Keef Wivanef

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #250 on: May 14, 2013, 01:02:52 am »
Here is a cheap thermal camera which uses a low cost sensor and scanning
http://www.cheap-thermocam.tk/

Image quality doesn't look real good and the device looks rather clunky BUT at a quick glance it looks feasible.

The Cheap-Thermocam V2 is finally here and ready to order !

The Cheap-Thermocam is a low-cost thermographic image scanner. With it you can analyse your house, electrical devices, etc. and identify for example thermal lacks.

Current FIR cameras on the market cost more than 2000€. My idea was it to
reduce costs by using one single non-contact temperature sensor to create a thermographic image. This is done by moving the sensor with two servors over the target area. The popular arduino is used to control that procedure. It takes about
3 minutes per image to measure the temperature on 3072 points
. All data is stored on a SD card. The thermal image can be created on any computer and combined with a normal optical image from a smartphone or a usual camera.


(no scam, bullshit, or bollocks remarks just yet)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 01:08:52 am by Keef Wivanef »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #251 on: May 14, 2013, 01:07:12 am »
I am inclined to think that you are talking through your bottom  :-DD
(Not you Dave... I'm talking to Mr Amspire)
In what way? Are you saying that if they posted a picture of the PCB, it would not be intensively analyzed here on the forum?

Keef, you have personal experience with scammers. Have you ever heard of a scammer giving refunds? I have big doubts this project will succeed, but if they intend to take all the money and run, they could have taken all the money and run. Why give anyone a refund? Are they capable of designing the camera? They have not done a single thing yet that proves they are - not that they have to at this stage.
 

Offline Keef Wivanef

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #252 on: May 14, 2013, 01:10:53 am »
Charles Ponzi gave refunds.
(Using other peoples money)
So did Bernie Madoff.

(I don't Think Greg Watson ever gave any refunds  :-DD)
 

Offline Keef Wivanef

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #253 on: May 14, 2013, 01:21:01 am »
Here is the sensor used in the Thermocam https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9570
It's certainly cheap enough.
In the Mu Thermal video they did show one of the techies posing with a similar looking device.

Terrific, all they need now are the XY servos and all the rest of the clunky hardware.
Stick all that in your shirt pocket (wifi to the Iphone) and stand very still for 3 minutes.
Nothing to it!
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #254 on: May 14, 2013, 01:22:13 am »
Charles Ponzi gave refunds.
(Using other peoples money)
So did Bernie Madoff.
No they didn't.
 

Online Rasz

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #255 on: May 14, 2013, 01:24:29 am »
I've not yet found prices for thermal imaging sensors, but it's conceivable they could be around the $100~$150 mark for a 160x120 resolution.

I did, about an hour after this project hit Hackaday. You are off by one zero.
The only chance this project had was
-unknown Chinese fab entering market with dubious quality reverse engineered substitute of a sensor.
-grad student making a breakthrough, designing new type of sensor and deciding to do a startup.

Now we know both of those are off the table.
Who logs in to gdm? Not I, said the duck.
My fireplace is on fire, but in all the wrong places.
 

Offline Keef Wivanef

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #256 on: May 14, 2013, 01:25:23 am »
Oh yes they did!
(your turn)
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #257 on: May 14, 2013, 01:27:46 am »
Interesting, "cheap thermocam". Looks good.  It's obviously limited by its slow refresh rate but shows the principle is practical.

A while back someone mentioned an IR thermal sensor capable of 100kHz bandwidth.

I'm thinking coupling this with a 2 degrees of freedom piezo actuator and you may have a practical ~25fps camera. (Figuring 64x48 pixel res and 100kHz piezo movement.)  Such techniques are used in some "grow your own" electron microscope projects. You would also have a trade off of resolution vs frame rate so you could get 640x480 (within piezo mechanical and vibration constrains of course) but only at 2.5 fps.

It's a mechanical assembly which is fiddly -- and hence expensive -- to mass produce, but I figure it could work on a low quantity scale.

I'm trying to find the article where some guy made an electron microscope this way. The main problem he had was vibration interfering with the image, so this technique may only be practical for stationary imaging.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #258 on: May 14, 2013, 01:30:56 am »
Oh yes they did!
(your turn)
Keef, if you want to attack people without the half decency of commenting on any point that person has made, you are wasting time and space.

You want us to believe in your book, and now you are acting like a troll.  What is up with you?
 

Offline jmole

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #259 on: May 14, 2013, 01:35:56 am »
Interesting, "cheap thermocam". Looks good.  It's obviously limited by its slow refresh rate but shows the principle is practical.

Do you even need more than like 1Hz on a thermal cam? Honestly, I'd be happy with a thermal camera where you just take pictures. It's not like the main use cases need the 30fps of a typical video camera.
 

Offline Keef Wivanef

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #260 on: May 14, 2013, 01:36:44 am »
Lighten up dude/old-chap!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

The Mu Thermal is not a Ponzi scam but it is clearly a scam.

A confidence trickster needs to maintain confidence (duh)
Handing out a few refunds to the noisiest complainers is the obvious thing to do.
It seems to have restored your confidence  :)



 

Offline tom66

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #261 on: May 14, 2013, 01:39:05 am »
See I don't understand why the confidence trickster needs to maintain confidence. He's got the money. Refunds are entirely optional on his part. He could basically walk away tomorrow and never reply.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #262 on: May 14, 2013, 01:40:21 am »
Interesting, "cheap thermocam". Looks good.  It's obviously limited by its slow refresh rate but shows the principle is practical.

Do you even need more than like 1Hz on a thermal cam? Honestly, I'd be happy with a thermal camera where you just take pictures. It's not like the main use cases need the 30fps of a typical video camera.

Higher refresh rates are necessary to analyse things like temperature gradients through air flows but I will admit that anything higher than 5Hz for me would be unnecessary. 
 

Offline Keef Wivanef

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #263 on: May 14, 2013, 01:41:05 am »
Interesting, "cheap thermocam". Looks good.  It's obviously limited by its slow refresh rate but shows the principle is practical.

Do you even need more than like 1Hz on a thermal cam? Honestly, I'd be happy with a thermal camera where you just take pictures. It's not like the main use cases need the 30fps of a typical video camera.

I agree.
The Cheap Thermocam looks like it would do the job.
There is not even the faintest odour of bullshit about it.

Keef gives it a  :-+

(Golly, I hope I am not jumping to conclusions)
 

Offline Keef Wivanef

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #264 on: May 14, 2013, 01:44:45 am »
See I don't understand why the confidence trickster needs to maintain confidence. He's got the money. Refunds are entirely optional on his part. He could basically walk away tomorrow and never reply.

Well, he could do that.
It would make him look bad though.
He would most likely prefer to carry on making excuses, try and get even more money, and probably launch a fresh scam later on.
After all, he's hit on a winning and perfectly legal formula.
 :(
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #265 on: May 14, 2013, 01:44:57 am »
Lighten up dude/old-chap!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme

The Mu Thermal is not a Ponzi scam but it is clearly a scam.

A confidence trickster needs to maintain confidence (duh)
Handing out a few refunds to the noisiest complainers is the obvious thing to do.
It seems to have restored your confidence  :)
You said I was talking out of my ass when I made a post saying if a PCB photo was posted, it would be analyzed here. You think that is even funny? You must have got a great deal of fun posting that.

If you have read any of my posts, you will not find a single word indicating I have confidence in Mu Optics. But I doubt you have bothered to read a single word - you just really enjoy attacking people - whether it is Sunball/Suncube, Mu Optics or now me, apparently. If you really don't want to be a troll, how about behaving with at least some respect?
 

Offline Keef Wivanef

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #266 on: May 14, 2013, 01:49:54 am »
If I have upset you with the suggestion that you engage in anal ventriloquism then please accept my apologies.
I have had to contend with much ruder suggestions than that.

It seems to have damaged my fragile eggshell mind.

 :(
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #267 on: May 14, 2013, 02:00:19 am »
If I have upset you with the suggestion that you engage in anal ventriloquism then please accept my apologies.
I have had to contend with much ruder suggestions than that.

It seems to have damaged my fragile eggshell mind.

Your fragile eggshell mind should stop being an asshole. That's not an apology and you know it.
No longer active here - try the IRC channel if you just can't be without me :)
 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #268 on: May 14, 2013, 02:13:26 am »
Hi Group,

T get back to the technical challenges:

Jmole asked 'when do you need more than 1Hz?'

When I was electing my imager, primarily for electronics work, I made a list of key features:

1) Enough resolution to see a hot 0603 or 0805 resistor.

2) Manual Focusing - you need to be able to focus at a distance of about 15cm or 6 inches.

3) A temperature range that goes to 150C+ (some of the building inspection cameras are limited to 100C)

The Fluke Ti9 has a 9 Frames per minute update rate. This was chosen because at 10 fps second some export restrictions kick in.

At 9 fps it is a little tricky to focus the camera.

The speed is also useful to see thinks heat up and cool down.






Jay_Diddy_B
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 02:23:06 am by Jay_Diddy_B »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #269 on: May 14, 2013, 02:21:51 am »
The Fluke Ti9 has a 9 Frames per minute update rate. This was chosen because at 10 fps second some export restrictions kick in.

At 9 fps it is a little tricky to focus the camera.
I had assumed the Mu optics would have to be fixed focus, but perhaps to get enough IR light onto the sensor, you have to use a large aperture lens - which would mean you need a focus.

What kind of depth of field do you get with the Ti9? If the focus is set to infinity, how close can objects get and still be in reasonable focus?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #270 on: May 14, 2013, 02:28:49 am »
When we see a PCB, we can work out a lot, and a big problem these guys have is if they can make an IR camera cheaply, there will be a lot of people who can do it 500% better. The moment they post a picture of the PCB, people on this list will be working out a lot about the design. From the pin count, visible traces from pins, clock connections, etc, it may even be possible to work out the micro family, the WiFi chip, the IR sensor. They may as well post the circuit and parts list. You seriously think they could post the PCB photo and not have it analyzed online here in the forum?

Yes, that's trivial.
Just cover up any vital parts with masking tape or something.
Showing at least a proto board with the words "Mu Thermal" or whatever on it, would be proof enough that something was at least manufactured.

Quote
Isn't it the truth that if they show a picture of a PCB that shows no details, they will be slammed in this forum for not showing a decent HiRes picture? It could be a picture of any PCB.

Not if it has the Mu Thermal name etched or printed on it.
Better than being slammed for showing nothing, surely?
It seems they have been slammed from almost day one by the backers for not showing any real hardware. It makes sense to appease your backers, given how easy it is to do.
And this forum doesn't matter a rats, it's the restless backers with pitchforks in the comments they have to appease.

Quote
If amazingly they have actually used an original concept in this design. they most definitely shouldn't give away even the smallest clues until they start to ship the product.

As has been pointed out many times, it is trivial to show some hardware without giving the game away.
How about a machined prototype case?
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 02:43:16 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline Jay_Diddy_B

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #271 on: May 14, 2013, 02:29:10 am »
Hi Amspire,
What type of object and at what distance?

The easiest thing for me to do is take one image focused and the other image set at infinity.

I will take images and post them.

Jay_Diddy_B
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 02:31:59 am by Jay_Diddy_B »
 

Offline CanadianAvenger

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #272 on: May 14, 2013, 02:38:15 am »
How about a machined prototype case?

With today's update, it was announced that the case design is still on paper, and won't move from that until the PCB is finalized. [which of course contradicts their statement from an earlier update about a month ago: "We’ve got a new case about to be machined (hopefully with proper and final mounts and clips)"]
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #273 on: May 14, 2013, 02:47:32 am »
Hi Amspire,
What type of object and at what distance?

The easiest thing for me to do is take one image focused and the other image set at infinity.

I will take images and post them.

Well lets take the type of image Mu Optics were talking about. Say looking at the thermal image of a house with enough detail around the door edges to see thermal leakage.

Could you get at least that much detail with the camera set at a fixed focus?

I have never been able to work out how Mu Optics would get a decent focused image in such a compact package without a complex lens, or an extremely small sensor. If they haven't got to properly testing the sensor yet, they will have absolutely no idea how big a lens they will really need to collect enough IR emissions.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #274 on: May 14, 2013, 03:18:16 am »
I am inclined to think that you are talking through your bottom  :-DD
(Not you Dave... I'm talking to Mr Amspire)
In what way? Are you saying that if they posted a picture of the PCB, it would not be intensively analyzed here on the forum?

Keef, you have personal experience with scammers. Have you ever heard of a scammer giving refunds? I have big doubts this project will succeed, but if they intend to take all the money and run, they could have taken all the money and run. Why give anyone a refund? Are they capable of designing the camera? They have not done a single thing yet that proves they are - not that they have to at this stage.

Bernie Madoff most certainly gave refunds.  It's part of the documented history against the guy.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 


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