Do you only get charged after the project is funded, or is it right away and you hope it shows up?
We have various venture capital options open to us to fund the project through to completion. The financing people are hard on our behinds to get this product in the market. The idea for the IndieGoGo campaign came to us from one of our financial advisors; suggested as a means to retain a greater share of equity in our company during the earlier days of design and prototyping. So...regardless of meeting our goal here or not, the Mµ Optics Thermal Imager is coming to market and all the early adopters and IndieGoGo supporters will definitely see their purchases delivered.
The following is the email I sent to the original poster of the link to the hackaday site. I took down his comment only after receiving his permission to do so.
Hello,
I’m responding to you through email because of IndieGoGo’s 500 word limitations.
I’m aware of Hackaday’s discourse concerning our camera accessory. I have a healthy respect for spirited discourse but can only defend myself and our company within the limitations of a competitive marketplace. We’re not building a one-off here, we’re attempting to build a company and that requires a certain amount of corporate discretion as we attempt to bring a product to the mass market.
Every industry experiences a tipping point in which, what was beyond the financial reach of the average person became affordable; either through technical advances, or the economics of supply and demand. I can say that our approach to this business is based on both realities.
I don’t think there can be any doubt that there exists a tremendous mass market for quality thermal imaging cameras. I believe we have the plan to address that market. I cannot, and will not, for the sake of discourse with knowledgable and intelligent technophiles whom have my respect, lift my skirt, show my hand, or simply share beyond what I should until it’s right for our company. I hope you can understand that.
The world is full of doubters, all I can do is work hard and make sure our product comes to market. I know that I have certain obligations to the IndieGoGo community to share information, but I also believe that they want us to be successful as a going concern. I have every intent upon sharing what I can at the appropriate time. It’s a very competitive world out there; I want to give my company every chance to succeed and sharing too much information just helps my competitors.
I know I leave you without specifics, but I hope my reply gives you some comfort that we’re in this to win. I’m leaving your comment up, though if you gave me permission, I’d take it down as it directs people to a place that can be a bit wild at times.
With respects,
John McGrath
Wait, they say in the video they have dropped the expensive optics, but in the text say they have "some amazing optics." WTF? :-//
My bet: It's not exactly a scam but the CEO thinks his plan is a lot smarter than it actually is. The product might exist five+ years from now but will barely work under ideal controlled conditions.
And the funds will be used for (among other things) "the hiring of a worldwide sales consultancy to sell Mµ Thermal Imager’s through to the hardware stores"This was the thing that made me more suspicious than anything else.
My bet: It's not exactly a scam but the CEO thinks his plan is a lot smarter than it actually is. The product might exist five+ years from now but will barely work under ideal controlled conditions.
Hence why they won't show any proto (and likely why they are using IndiGoGo instead of Kickstarter which require this).
It seems they are signed up display their wares at some trade show in May. I'd be surprised if they have anything to show at all.
There is a company (linked above somewhere) claiming to have plastic fresnel opticsI can't find the link, but Melexis who makes the IR Blue sensor has this in their FAQ :
There is a company (linked above somewhere) claiming to have plastic fresnel opticsI can't find the link, but Melexis who makes the IR Blue sensor has this in their FAQ :
"Q:
Do you know suppliers of such PolyEthylene lenses, and may you post it here?
A:
I know suppliers like Kube Electronics in Switzerland http://www.kube.ch/optics/index.php (http://www.kube.ch/optics/index.php) and Fresneltech in the US http://www.fresneltech.com/materials.html (http://www.fresneltech.com/materials.html)"
Of course in the same FAQ they said they never had success with fresnel lenses.
Fair point on 9FPS. That is why the likes of the Fluke TICs have become so much more widespread these days. The death grip of the US DoD has been loosened slightly, but only slightly. Try exporting to perceived 'unfriendly' countries and you end up in a US court explaining yourself :o. In the Mu text blog the rep states that they are including Wi-Fi as opposed to Bluetooth as the Bluetooth couldn't cope with 30FPS.My guess is they planned on 30fps but haven't looked into the export issues in sufficient detail.
To quote Charles McGrath:
"We agree, Bluetooth would be great, but at 19,200 pixels, coming in 30 times each second, we found that it just wouldn’t cut it in the vast majority of cases."
I may have misinterpreted what he meant though ? Maybe the unit will produce 30FPS using 9FPS of thermal image data ....a sort of 'padded' output :-DD
Fraser
Fair point on 9FPS. That is why the likes of the Fluke TICs have become so much more widespread these days. The death grip of the US DoD has been loosened slightly, but only slightly. Try exporting to perceived 'unfriendly' countries and you end up in a US court explaining yourself :o.
Does anyone else think that it is pathetic to say a prototype may not be shown or demonstrated ?
People who have invested
Benefit of the doubt.
Innocent until proven guilty.
OINK OINK OINK............which way to the bank?
Party on dudes...you've got the GREEN LIGHT!!
|O
Crowdfunding is marketing.
Then of course there are those people who actually ARE convinced that their technology works. There are plenty of people who think they actually have discovered something new, and they just need a bit more research to make money from it.
For me I came to the conclusion that croudfunding is just another platform for scams. Guilible idiots are made to part with their money, by making them believe they order something or invest in something. While in reality they just donate money to some strangers, with no serious mechanisms in place to hold those strangers accountable. The crowdfunding platforms just pocket their share without taking any responsibility.
Maybe there is now an community college teaching crowdfunding as marketing. For me it is negative marketing. If an idea needs croudfunding it is not good enough to attract regular funding, or it is a scam right from the beginning.
By the time it is proven otherwise it will be too late for the contributors to get their money back.
Have you ever tried to recover a debt?
How much MORE money do you want to lose?
You've been sold a promise and you've received it :D
These two stories are not the only cases involving questionable products being sold, or struggles with the manufacturing process leading to delays in delivery (with delivery never happening in some instances). The general attitude of people who have been backing projects from the beginning is that it is an investment which comes with risk, but others see it as a creative way to buy products, so the pledge mentality is certainly changing as crowdfunding goes mainstream.
In this case things aren't looking so good - the exhibitor listing has been yanked from the hardware show's web site.
There is also a big difference between Kickstarter and IGG when it comes to ease in scamming. It is much more difficult to pull off on Kickstarter because Kickstarter does not have "flexible funding" options and is much more strict when it comes to the rules about what you can and cannot do in a campaign. This one (the thermal imager) was the first one I have backed on IGG. Not a very good first impression.
I'm not talking about stalled products, late products, or products that didn't deliver because they were mismanaged or whatever, I'm talking about flat out scams from the get go. The number of genuine scams appears to be very small so far.
Most people (should) know that a huge percentage of Kickstarter projects do not meet their delivery date and/or currently have delivered anything, that fact is very widely publicised.
I think the big problem with Kickstarter is how does the potential investor distinguish between an honest attempt and an outright scam.
It may be many of these project creators have genuine intent, but there isn't much vetting done by Kickstarter at all - not on the people nor the project.
You essentially can't, unless it's clearly the "too good to to be true" category.
A simple scam like producing a prototype of a product that is easily do-able, and then simply making off with the money while pretending to be trying is all too easy. If you've got the guts.
If this Mµ Optics one is a scam from the get-go, then it's a pretty elaborate one. e.g. getting people (actors?) to be in the video saying they are working on this and that etc.
They can't. The volume is huge, and they are not technical experts in every field. They can't possibly know the intricacies of electronics design and manufacturing for example, which is just one very small part of the whole Kickstarter world.
We have a few meetings later this week to discuss this and what our final approach (approaches?) will be. For those of you who need USB we really are paying attention, because you were all early supporters we want to have a workable solution for each of you.
There is some talk in the comments about us not being on the roster for the Hardware show. This is true, we pulled off of the show floor because we realized that it would be more economical for us to meet with the big buyers privately rather than show the imager on the convention floor. We’re associated with people who can get the right people into the suite with us and they believe the booth to be more of distraction than anything else. So…we’re still aimed at showing the camera there. We also did this for competitive and confidendiatilty reasons.
Let me take a minute to talk in general terms about development status. We started this project knowing that thermography could be such a useful tool for so many more people than currently use it. And so we knew that an affordable thermal camera would be huge. We set off doing our research, noting where the big expenses were, and coming up with dozens of different ideas. Some of these ideas were genuinely very clever, although most ultimately didn’t pan out. In the end, we have a great plan and we’re nearing the finish line to a great camera. We’ve mentioned that we’ve experimented with a few different detectors. Well, we’re very happy with the one we’ve settled with. Abe is in the other room right now tweaking bias voltages and the like to get the best picture possible in the field. Turns out it’s just as hard to make the picture look great as it is just to get a picture in the first place.
We’ve got a new case about to be machined (hopefully with proper and final mounts and clips). The next PCB we order should pretty much be the one that goes into the first cameras we ship…baring any big changes.
I’m off to poke around the Internet for a new battery because I’m just not satisfied with the pack that we’ve been working with so far. I imagine that you all would be happy with as many milliamp hours as you can get, right?
Late in the month of May still seems good. The longest lead-time we have on any part is a few weeks and suppliers are at the ready.
We’re making steady progress, a video is coming very soon. We’re working late into the evenings and weekends. You’ll be very happy with what you see.
The project owner has not responded yet to my request for a refund. I'll give it some time (another request or two) before I initiate a transaction dispute with PayPal (they give you 45 days to initiate it).
It could very well be that the project owner knows about that 45 day time limit (all payments go through paypal), and is banking on enough contributors holding out hope for long enough that he can ignore them.
Charles McGrath posted an announcement 1 hour agoSo you don't know your final interface approach but you have near-complete PCBs? :-DD
We have a few meetings later this week to discuss this and what our final approach (approaches?) will be.
......
The next PCB we order should pretty much be the one that goes into the first cameras we ship
We’ve mentioned that we’ve experimented with a few different detectors. Well, we’re very happy with the one we’ve settled with.At this price level I highly doubt there are "a few different detectors" to choose from.
..and still you claim to have a production-ready PCB
Abe is in the other room right now tweaking bias voltages and the like to get the best picture possible in the field.
Turns out it’s just as hard to make the picture look greatLook good..? It's a measuring device, not a camera - either it's acccurate or it isn't.
We’ve got a new case about to be machined (hopefully with proper and final mounts and clips).So you have no mould tooling and yet claiming to be shipping in May? :-DD
I’m off to poke around the Internet for a new battery because I’m just not satisfied with the pack that we’ve been working with so far. I imagine that you all would be happy with as many milliamp hours as you can get, right?You don't have a final battery, but you think you have finalised the case design, and you are claiming to be shipping May. :-DD :-DD
Late in the month of May still seems good. The longest lead-time we have on any part is a few weeks and suppliers are at the ready.Dude, it's Mid April, so you really think you can get parts on "a few weeks leadtime", manufacture, test and package in six weeks - you are clearly delusional :palm:
We’re making steady progress, a video is coming very soon.Which I predict will still fail to show any real hardware.
I am very impressed with the choreography of our little yellow 'men' ;D
Hello,
Looking through the comments I noticed that contacted John about receiving a refund from your contribution. Your refund should be sent out today via PayPal. I want to assure you that we are working hard to get our product out and we are saddened to hear that you are not longer interested. Thank you for your original contribution.
Marcus
Interesting. I was given a full refund via PayPal with no fuss in less than 20 hours. The communication from muoptics was professional and cordial.
I'm inclined to think that they are not intentionally scamming anyone. Otherwise it wouldn't have been nearly so easy to get a refund.
I do still think they are in way over their heads when it comes to manufacturing and delivery. Logistics just aren't on their side. I wouldn't expect to see any product deliveries until late fall at the earliest.
If they succeed though in bringing this to market, and assuming it is functional enough for the price point, I would probably buy a retail unit from them for simple things like improving insulation efficiency in my home etc.
There is some recourse. When you launch a project on either site, you accept a contract that commits you to delivery of the rewards/perks promised in the campaign, or to provide a full refund. As far as I know, this is a binding contract for any US-based company who accepts money from US-based backers (it's probably not nearly as strongly protective of non-US backers, or as binding to non-US creators). But it should be good enough for recovery via arbitration or lawsuit in most cases. It just takes the right set of backers to get shafted before the process gets tested. So far nobody has pressed it.
I could see a whole cottage industry of specialized law practices springing up who focus on organizing legal actions against fraudulent crowdfunding projects. Especially now that some of these projects are raking in HUGE amounts of cash. There's a good bit of money on the table there - a siren's call to lawyers.
" Just over a year ago I wrote an article here on Forbes titled ZionEyez, Weiner, and Watching which, amongst other topics, discussed a Kickstarter project called ZionEyez.Aaaaaaaaarrrgh! |O
If you’re not up to speed on Kickstarter it’s a service where individuals and companies can pitch their ideas for projects of any kind such as products, music, artwork … you name it. These projects are looking for backers; people who will sign up at a level of anything from $1 to thousands of dollars in return for rewards that range from being listed as a project backer through to receiving products in bulk.
The idea of Kickstarter is brilliant: It allows small companies and individuals to test the market for whatever they plan to offer. Some projects don’t get funded, some get what they’re looking for, and some, as in the case of ZionEyez, succeed beyond their wildest dreams.
What ZionEyez proposed was to produce glasses under the brand name “Eyez” that could stream realtime high definition video and audio to the Internet from a built-in camera and microphone in the frame of the specs.
Potential users were really excited by the idea of being able to “life stream” for a very low price ($199) … check out the original posting for more details of the planned product.
ZionEyez was looking to raise $55,000 and on July 31, 2011, the closing date for the project, had slightly exceeded its goal with 2,106 backers committing a total of $343,415! That was, by any measure, an astounding performance and spoke to the surprisingly high latent demand for a product such as the one proposed by ZionEyez.
But wait a second … when you consider the sophistication required to deliver streaming HD video from a product that’s as constrained in size and weight as glasses, you have to wonder whether a startup can deliver on such ambitious promises. In June 2011 a post on the Singularity Hub blog framed the issue nicely:
Now, as cool as Eyez may appear, there’s still plenty of reasons to be cautious. That animation video is great, but it’s not a real product. Is it vaporware? Well, the cynic in me says it’s too early to say otherwise, but ZionEyez CTO, Joe Taylor, is coming from Flip, a company that made millions on mobile cameras , and I don’t think there’s anything in this build that would be impossible or undeliverable at this price. Should we be concerned that Eyez is coming from a crowd sourced project rather than a big name distributor? Maybe. But it could also just be a sign that bright young entrepreneurs know that there’s more money to be made the longer they stay independent."
Did it end in tears?
You betcha!
"I think the bigger issue is the Kickstarter model and the company’s unwillingness to take responsibility for projects that don’t deliver. Based on the stories shared by Kickstarter project backers, I believe the ZionEyez project is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to projects that don’t deliver."
Kristina on March 1
"So let me get this straight, you can take $343,415 and live a long & happy life without any consequences? How is this possible?"
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zioneyez/eyeztm-by-zioneyez-hd-video-recording-glasses-for/posts/205189 (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zioneyez/eyeztm-by-zioneyez-hd-video-recording-glasses-for/posts/205189)
Off with their testurcles :)
Aaaaaaaaarrrgh! |O
I have read the recent messages on the site and I am still at a loss to understand how people can think that a new medium resolution thermal camera can be provided to them for just US$150. Do these people not do any research on the topic at all ?
Hello Everyone,
After a very long weekend of near round-the-clock work we’re very close to presenting our camera and the images that result. What most all of you are wanting to see is coming up quickly. Much of the software is complete, it’s been the hardware that has been the beast for us. Image quality is of utmost importance to us and much of that work is on the hardware side.
We are still evaluating the USB and Wifi scenarios and have not made a decision. That will be coming soon.
I am working towards finalizing the parts suppliers and the assembly team and most importantly to all of you, the schedule for production. I’ll let you know as soon as I’m confident of a firm timeframe. We’re still six weeks out from our original timeframe of late May.
Thank you all that have been patient with our development process. Enjoy your week.
John McGrath
Hope they have some lovely cell mates
:-+
After a very long weekend of near round-the-clock work we’re very close to presenting our camera and the images that result.
What most all of you are wanting to see is coming up quickly. Much of the software is complete, it’s been the hardware that has been the beast for us.
Image quality is of utmost importance to us and much of that work is on the hardware side.
We are still evaluating the USB and Wifi scenarios and have not made a decision. That will be coming soon.
I am working towards finalizing the parts suppliers and the assembly team and most importantly to all of you, the schedule for production.
I’ll let you know as soon as I’m confident of a firm timeframe. We’re still six weeks out from our original timeframe of late May.
Thank you all that have been patient with our development process. Enjoy your week.
Taking bets now on what your excuse will be in 4-5 weeks time when you have delivered squat and still shown nothing...
A sudden outbreak of the flue or another illness, confining the whole team to bed.
Much of the software is complete
Bear in mind that for basic functionality all this needs to do is receive and display an image, and add a few simple control widgets. Even if it's doing some clever stuff to do things like correcting lens geometry, that wouldn't prevent demoing _something_ Could easily be done to a demo-able standard in a week by one good guy.QuoteMuch of the software is complete
That part is a bit of a red flag for me. I've been on the software development side of things for two decades now, and deal with many platforms - including iPhone/Android. In the only video we have seen, a single "developer" was shown - a guy was clearly very young (therefore inexperienced) and who referred to himself as a "designer".
To write the kind of software these guys are talking about is not a 4-week/1-person project, not even for the very best in the industry. Especially not when you are talking about supporting two incompatible mobile platforms at launch. That's effectively two different applications written in different languages against different API's.
My guess is that the "designer" has mocked up some UI and spackled it together into a barely functional prototype - something that looks like it is useful but is mostly smoke & mirrors. But most of the real code isn't there (stubbed out, TBD). Usually that means the hard parts are left undone until the end... and basically you get screwed by the 80/20 rule. 80% of development time is spent on the final 20% of code. But nobody sees that so far - everything looks great until the wave crashes over.
Unless I have made some very bad errors in guesswork about what the "team" looks like, I'm betting they are probably a good 4 to 6 months from stable software (in the best case). And that might even be with bringing on one or two more very experienced ($$$) devs.
Totally ignoring the hardware side of things - I just don't find it realistic that they could afford to complete the software in time - not without some external investment that we don't know about. There just isn't headroom left in the operating budget for that given what we know about the hardware costs.
Even IRISYS provide detail of how their very clever and economic sensors work. If this company really had a revolutionary sensor, as they seem to imply, they don't need to sell any cheap TIC's, they could sell the idea to the big players and walk away with Millions of Dollars in production rights.
Hello Everyone,
This weekend was a bit tough, we’ve had a setback with our WiFi chipset provider, we’ve been unable to get the adhoc WiFi working well with the multiple phones we’ve been testing it on.
We’ve now gone back to work with a provider that we originally looked at but that required a host chipset to work off of. They have just released a chipset that now meets all of our requirements (and does not require a host) and after a weekend of evaluation and consideration we’ve decided to make the change. Quality and reliability have to take precedence over most everything else.
What does this do to our schedule? Well…regretfully, we’re not going to make the hardware show, though we’ve contacted the people we were most interested in meeting with and they’ve agreed to private meetings later in the month.
As to our delivery to our IndieGoGo supporters, it means a delay. At this point, it’s too early to say when we’ll begin shipping but hopefully it won’t be much of a delay, please give me a week or so to determine what the delay will be. This disappoints us more than you can know and we know it’s a disappointment to all of you. You’re continued patience is appreciated and if you would like a refund due to the delay, let me know.
Next week we’ll show you the software, using the visible light portion of our product (we can’t show thermal images in it until we get the WiFi working well). This will include a run through of the operations of the camera, the database behind it and how you’ll work with it.
Thank you all.
John McGrath
Next week we’ll show you the software, using the visible light portion of our product (we can’t show thermal images in it until we get the WiFi working well). This will include a run through of the operations of the camera, the database behind it and how you’ll work with it.
There is some talk in the comments about us not being on the roster for the Hardware show. This is true, we pulled off of the show floor because we realized that it would be more economical for us to meet with the big buyers privately rather than show the imager on the convention floor.
Hello Everyone,
This weekend was a bit tough, we’ve had a setback with our WiFi chipset provider, we’ve been unable to get the adhoc WiFi working well with the multiple phones we’ve been testing it on.
We’ve now gone back to work with a provider that we originally looked at but that required a host chipset to work off of. They have just released a chipset that now meets all of our requirements (and does not require a host) and after a weekend of evaluation and consideration we’ve decided to make the change.
Quality and reliability have to take precedence over most everything else.
What does this do to our schedule? Well…regretfully, we’re not going to make the hardware show, though we’ve contacted the people we were most interested in meeting with and they’ve agreed to private meetings later in the month.
As to our delivery to our IndieGoGo supporters, it means a delay. At this point, it’s too early to say when we’ll begin shipping but hopefully it won’t be much of a delay, please give me a week or so to determine what the delay will be.
This disappoints us more than you can know and we know it’s a disappointment to all of you. You’re continued patience is appreciated and if you would like a refund due to the delay, let me know.
Next week we’ll show you the software, using the visible light portion of our product
(we can’t show thermal images in it until we get the WiFi working well).
This will include a run through of the operations of the camera, the database behind it and how you’ll work with it.
I'm extra glad I have that refund now... that last update is ridiculous and makes no sense to reality.
They have just released a chipset that now meets all of our requirements (and does not require a host) and after a weekend of evaluation and consideration we’ve decided to make the change.
You’re continued patience is appreciated and if you would like a refund due to the delay, let me know.
The reason I'd rule it out is that compatibility problems with a range of phones don't stop anyone from showing the product with a phone that it does happen to work with - and the fact that they're not able to do even this suggests that there are in fact *no* phones on which this device can show a thermal image.
When the rush starts for refunds it will be like a run on a bank, only the first few will see any money back.
And that rush will give them a good excuse. Something like "All the backers asking for a refund are killing the project. We don't have enough money any more to pay for production/prototype/parts because of the refunds. It is over, and it is your fault. We can't fully refund everyone, because we spent it on the project."
Mail fraud is still a crime.
"In the United States, mail and wire fraud is any fraudulent scheme to intentionally deprive another of property or honest services via mail or wire communication. It has been a federal crime in the United States since 1872."
Mail fraud is still a crime.
"In the United States, mail and wire fraud is any fraudulent scheme to intentionally deprive another of property or honest services via mail or wire communication. It has been a federal crime in the United States since 1872."
Time to bring the law up to date and include internet in the definition."
|O
Those guys make the young punks look like rank amateurs.
No, I wasn't suggesting that, just that the whole legal edifice is so inefficient and slow compared to what the social web can do better/faster in limiting the 'take' these guys get. I think it might be harder to pull off crowdfunding type scams compared to ye old fashioned ones if high google rank sites appear with warnings. Have you followed the SCO sues the linux world attempt? Groklaw really killed the $600 dollar extortion-license business dead right quick and Darl Mcbride started wailing "unfair .. unfair" but the sco suits against Novell/IBM went on forever in the official legal track. There were Groklaw'ers begging to be charged for a license for something that SCO didn't own. That would have been mail fraud.Those guys make the young punks look like rank amateurs.
Even a rank amateur can now be a successful scammer thanks to the internet and crowdfunding
This Moo Thermal plop is a prime example.
Should we just shrug our shoulders and let them carry on?
:scared:
Should we just shrug our shoulders and let them carry on?
I had the idea maybe 9 months back that I would set up a crowd funding "technical review" type blog/videoblog, but I didn't see any form of "long tail" view potential in it.
Actually this is a very good idea Dave, why not do a short "walk time" video dedicated torantbring out about this matter, and see how the audience respond to this idea of setting a independent review board, I believe there are many forum members here that are qualified imo to do such review or at least make a sounding.
If there is another interest I could set up a dedicated part of the forum to discuss crowd funded projects. :-//That is a good start, though I believed this new special dedicated part of the forum should be promoted 1st thru your video to gain more attentions from the internet crowd rather than depends on forum members to increase it's traffic.
Actually this is a very good idea Dave, why not do a short "walk time" video dedicated torantbring out about this matter, and see how the audience respond to this idea of setting a independent review board, I believe there are many forum members here that are qualified imo to do such review or at least make a sounding.
If there is another interest I could set up a dedicated part of the forum to discuss crowd funded projects. :-//
I wonder if it would be advantageous to structure such reviews around a by-request-only model. Independent 3rd party review and critique (by qualified and competent technical reviewers) is a service that could provide a LOT of value to the crowd-funding world.
If it were respected and popular then smart project owners would seek out a review, and use it as a way to jump-start their own marketing. Nothing is better marketing than having an outside party find a defect in your product, and then you respond and fix it publicly.
Even a rank amateur can now be a successful scammer thanks to the internet and crowdfunding
Should we just shrug our shoulders and let them carry on?
What do you suggest we do?
Considering your only contribution to this forum has been this thread, you should be full of lots of good ideas?
I had the idea maybe 9 months back that I would set up a crowd funding "technical review" type blog/videoblog, but I didn't see any form of "long tail" view potential in it.
Perhaps you'd like to start one?
Mail fraud is still a crime.
"In the United States, mail and wire fraud is any fraudulent scheme to intentionally deprive another of property or honest services via mail or wire communication. It has been a federal crime in the United States since 1872."
Therein lies the rub.
If there is another interest I could set up a dedicated part of the forum to discuss crowd funded projects. :-//That is a good start, though I believed this new special dedicated part of the forum should be promoted 1st thru your video to gain more attentions from the internet crowd rather than depends on forum members to increase it's traffic.
This place itself with so many qualified and publicly known members is a good place to start this so called independent review committee/board.
Where the line is remains something for courts to decide, but I can't give these Mu guys the benefit of the doubt considering they appear to be deliberately obfuscating the details of their project. That is an old tried-and-true scam technique, and as a start-up, they have no track record of success to fall back on either.
I just had a look at the IR Blue web site....far more professional and up front about their product. Pictures o the parts kit shown and no top secret industrial secrets involved ! Wi-Fi connectivity as well ;)
http://rh-workshop-llc.myshopify.com/ (http://rh-workshop-llc.myshopify.com/)
http://rh-workshop-llc.myshopify.com/products/ir-blue-kit (http://rh-workshop-llc.myshopify.com/products/ir-blue-kit)
The COTS 64 element thermal detector is far more realist at this price point.
For me I came to the conclusion that croudfunding is just another platform for scams. Guilible idiots are made to part with their money, by making them believe they order something or invest in something. While in reality they just donate money to some strangers, with no serious mechanisms in place to hold those strangers accountable. The crowdfunding platforms just pocket their share without taking any responsibility.
Can you quote any cases on Kickstarter where this is the actually the case?
There may be, but I haven't heard of any. Sure, quite a few don't deliver, or are very very late, or delivered less than promised etc
But in all the cases I've heard, they have at least genuinely tried.
OpenVizsla
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bushing/openvizsla-open-source-usb-protocol-analyzer?ref=card (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bushing/openvizsla-open-source-usb-protocol-analyzer?ref=card)
They aren't all train wrecks.
I'm saying that presumed innocent is a green light for scammers.
You also can't just assume everyone is a scammer until proven otherwise.
They aren't all train wrecks. Here is a counterpoint example of one that I recently backed. It raised 15 times the goal amount, all units were shipped on time. Actually, many were early. And that's after the project owner made some major last-minute alterations to the design at the recommendation of several backers.This project is at least an order of magnitude less hard than most - minimal software involved and no mechanical stuff. You'd have to be seriously incompetent to mess that up.
I wonder if they can change KS into loan agency like institutions. You don't just receive the money when backed but instead get a zero interest loan, upon project delivery the debt is paid with the pledged funds.
doug7007 said 17 hours ago
Shouldnt the money raised banner and supporter counter decrease with each refund ??!!!!!!!!!!!
And that rush will give them a good excuse. Something like "All the backers asking for a refund are killing the project. We don't have enough money any more to pay for production/prototype/parts because of the refunds. It is over, and it is your fault. We can't fully refund everyone, because we spent it on the project."Yep, that's the exact "out" they will be counting on I bet.
We have various venture capital options open to us to fund the project through to completion. The financing people are hard on our behinds to get this product in the market. The idea for the IndieGoGo campaign came to us from one of our financial advisors; suggested as a means to retain a greater share of equity in our company during the earlier days of design and prototyping. So...regardless of meeting our goal here or not, the Mµ Optics Thermal Imager is coming to market and all the early adopters and IndieGoGo supporters will definitely see their purchases delivered.:-DD
I wonder if they can change KS into loan agency like institutions. You don't just receive the money when backed but instead get a zero interest loan, upon project delivery the debt is paid with the pledged funds.
There are already microlending programs like that. Maybe not zero-interest, but Kickstarter keeps 10% of the raised money so they aren't free either.
The reason it wouldn't work is that the entire supposition of crowdfunding is that the project creator doesn't have the financial means of doing it without funding. If they did, then they wouldn't be looking at crowdfunding in the first place.
being a baker of OpenVizsla I can say that the last update (#29) was sent on 2013-01-30
At least they have shown some photos... Not too much to be happy, but... IIRC "only" 150USD thrown away!: :( :--
The problem with these projects is that making "stuff" is really expensive. You have parts cost, manufacturing costs, advertising, travel, trade shows, overhead (insurance, utilities, etc). not to mention paying the people who are working on the project.
Most people who do not run a business in the industry in question do not understand all these costs... so they see a commercial product that sells for $100 and they think "hell, I can make that for $50! Then I can sell mine for $90 and make a ton of money!". But they don't know that the $100 product is sold by the manufacturer for $40, and the parts cost must be $10, and the manufacturer isn't making a lot of money even at those prices.
Then the person with the idea starts a crowdsourced project, gets a lot of money... but because they do not have the experience or connections, they can't get the costs down like the big manufacturer can, and before they know it, they've blown half their money on traveling to various manufacturers trying to put the project together - and they don't even have enough left to cover the production run, even if they did it at cost.
That is the big risk of these projects. I don't think it's really scammers trying to swindle people, but rather doe-eyed inexperienced neophytes who just do not have the knowledge or information they need to embark on such projects in a successful manner.
Having said that, I know nothing about this project creator, nor do I know a lot about IR cameras. I own one (a FLIR i7) that was really expensive to buy... and I really like the technology and I know how it works. And what makes me nervous is that this guys claim that the expensive stuff is the processing and such, is totally untrue in my opinion. The expensive stuff is the optics and sensor. He is claiming to be able to make a camera for $150 that has the same resolution of a $2,0000 FLIR. That is over 90% cheaper. And considering FLIR is a huge company that has economies of scale (and purchasing power) this guy can't even dream of, it really makes me suspicious.
On top of the erroneous claim that the stuff in the phone are the expensive parts, I would personally not invest.
Even a rank amateur can now be a successful scammer thanks to the internet and crowdfunding
Crowdfunding is just a new angle. It was eBay who provided the largest training ground for future scammers. A whole generation of scammers had time to try every tricke in the book, even invent a few ones, and hon basic scammer skills unmolested on eBay.
Although I've enjoyed the topic and Dave's rant, I think Mr. Keef Wivanef's posts are way overboard.OVERBOARD???
Of course everyone knows the investment is a liability: You don't have to spam the board with laughing emoticons and long quotes.
Although I smelled the obvious technical rat from the beginning, I originally gave them the benefit of the doubt for a bit to see if they would come through with some tangible proof of some real hardware. But it became quickly clear that they are just spewing BS, stalling, and refusing to provide any evidence of anything. It has now transitioned into a scam if it wasn't intentionally from the start.
Although given that they claimed to have various prototypes etc, if they lied about that then it was indeed a scam from the get-go.
Although I've enjoyed the topic and Dave's rant, I think Mr. Keef Wivanef's posts are way overboard.OVERBOARD???
Of course everyone knows the investment is a liability: You don't have to spam the board with laughing emoticons and long quotes.
Greg Watson (professional con-artist) came on the scene long before crowd-funding.
He had to work a bit harder to spread his lies across the web and lure in victims.
"new planet saving invention almost ready...send money now"
Con artists like Watson quickly realised that claiming environmental benefits earns sympathy from many people and that most of those people don't have the scientific or engineering knowledge to see the obvious flaws.
Watson went on to cause BILLION DOLLAR LOSSES to investors.
Crowd-funding is a wonderful tool for con-artists. It is being used in conjunction with social networking to reach a massive pool of potential victims.
Each recruit will go on to evangelise for the "planet saving widget"
Once a critical mass has been achieved and the widget is high on the Google rankings it gains an undeserved credibility.
(A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth)
Just Google " Ecat" for a classic example.
A convicted criminal, environmental vandal with Mafia connections has built an empire on Cold Fusion Crapolata.
Aaaaaaaaaargh! |O
I think we should let Dave decide what this forum is about :)
Well, I am still peeved that I am $50K out of pocket and that ASIC and the other regulators give a green light to such operations..
I like THIS ROOFTOP because Dave allows much more freedom to name and shame than most other forums do.
They re-posted the video, it is up now. But still not enough to say it is real, the UI is running in the iOS sim. Still no evidence of actual hardware.They say the IR image is not real - it won't be till they get the new WiFi IC that they just very recently got supplied. Until the WiFi chip software is working, they cannot get IR images to the phone or anywhere else I gather.The IR image in the demonstration is just a simulated IR image. Perhaps they just color-shifted the original image to make it look like an IR image.
So, it will be capable of thermal sensing through glass? >:D >:D >:DI am very glad it is not a problem I have to worry about.
They say the IR image is not real - it won't be till they get the new WiFi IC that they just very recently got supplied. Until the WiFi chip software is working, they cannot get IR images to the phone or anywhere else I gather.The IR image in the demonstration is just a simulated IR image. Perhaps they just color-shifted the original image to make it look like an IR image.
Screw the WiFi - that's just window dressing they've yet to provide any evidence of any functioning thermal imaging. The fact they still haven't after all this time and all the criticism can only lead to the conclusion that they have nothing.
They might have the WiFi working next week. They might have it working in 3 months. Who knows?
OK, why do they need WiFi to show IR images? I would think with everyone calling them scammers, they would put the WiFi and the app aside for now and just demonstrate that the camera works.Yes they do. How else does an image get from their PCB to the phone? If the link is WiFi, and WiFi is not working, then no link.
Nonsense, they bother to produce 'simulated' IR footage. Why not put some efford in simulating that wifi link by tranferring images with SD card, or simulating the app display on a PC?OK, why do they need WiFi to show IR images? I would think with everyone calling them scammers, they would put the WiFi and the app aside for now and just demonstrate that the camera works.Yes they do. How else does an image get from their PCB to the phone? If the link is WiFi, and WiFi is not working, then no link.
OK, why do they need WiFi to show IR images?
All these guys have to do to quell 90% of the doubters is to turn on the video camera, pick up their prototypes in their own two hands and SHOW THEM.
Yes they do. How else does an image get from their PCB to the phone? If the link is WiFi, and WiFi is not working, then no link.
There could be many ways, you build those sorts of things into your hardware for development and debugging.Don't get me wrong - I think at best, the project has huge problems. I gather no-one know the status of the sensor and lens.
Remember, it used to be a USB interface camera, not WiFi. They only made that switch way after the campaign ended.
Remember, they have already claimed they are getting thermal images out of their supposed camera. Any excuse about not being able to show an image because WiFi is not working is therefore complete bullshit. There is absolutely no doubt about this based on what they have said. So they have either been lying, or are full of crap, there is no third option.
I definitely wont do it this way when I start my IC Printer crowd-sourcing project. I will have the Android and iPhone apps with the big "PRINT IC" button completely working before I start the funding campaign. :)Will it come with built in IC templates??!!?? ;D
Better than that - it will come with built in ICs!!!!! The design is continually being refined to give you the best possible quality.I definitely wont do it this way when I start my IC Printer crowd-sourcing project. I will have the Android and iPhone apps with the big "PRINT IC" button completely working before I start the funding campaign. :)Will it come with built in IC templates??!!?? ;D
" Image quality is of utmost importance to us and much of that work is on the hardware side."
"Thermal imaging is tricky, and we want to get it right for every camera we build, so we keep testing and redesigning and perfecting, I think that we’re nearly there though."
" a working camera will be unveiled in early May, and you will see working videos of our camera well in advance of that." Hmmmmm :-[
Abe is in the other room right now tweaking bias voltages and the like to get the best picture possible in the field. Turns out it’s just as hard to make the picture look great as it is just to get a picture in the first place.
All the posted IR images and videos was a bit misleading - I am sure some people would have thought they were taken with the Mu Optics camera instead of something that probably costs over 20 times more.
I would definitely agree that the camera testing and the phone connectivity testing should have been in prototyping before the fund raising. Now they are committed to delivering about 1800 cameras and they are still trying to work out how to do it. I think they are in trouble. I gather there has been no tooling for the case yet. With the changes in chipsets, they would have to design, order and build new test/prototyping boards before the next round of tests.
We’ve got a new case about to be machined (hopefully with proper and final mounts and clips).
The next PCB we order should pretty much be the one that goes into the first cameras we ship…baring any big changes
Now they are committed to delivering about 1800 cameras
Also, they said this:QuoteAbe is in the other room right now tweaking bias voltages and the like to get the best picture possible in the field. Turns out it’s just as hard to make the picture look great as it is just to get a picture in the first place.
That means they bloody well have a thermal image, otherwise they are completely lying.
All the posted IR images and videos was a bit misleading - I am sure some people would have thought they were taken with the Mu Optics camera instead of something that probably costs over 20 times more.
Also, they said this:The wording is very careful - they didn't actually say that Abe has a thermal image from the IR sensor. He might be looking at the sensor output on a scope and adjusting the bias voltages for the best apparent dynamic range of the signals seen on the scope. Sometimes you can see more on a scope output then an actual picture image output which is why waveform monitors were such a big thing back in the analog TV days.QuoteAbe is in the other room right now tweaking bias voltages and the like to get the best picture possible in the field. Turns out it’s just as hard to make the picture look great as it is just to get a picture in the first place.
If that's true then that means they must have a thermal image. Why don't they show it?
I don't know why they used WiFi. Don't most phones support acting as a USB host now? Seems like it would be cheaper and more reliable. Maybe a little harder to write an app for, I don't know.Disregarding the speculation about fraud, to connect a gadget to an iOS device you have to be part of Apple's MFi licensing program, plus the newest models have a different connector to the older ones. I don't know if there are any limitations in Android devices, but at least in theory a wireless connection would be simpler and more universal.
I don't know if there are any limitations in Android devices,
The wording is very careful - they didn't actually say that Abe has a thermal image from the IR sensor. He might be looking at the sensor output on a scope and adjusting the bias voltages for the best apparent dynamic range of the signals seen on the scope. Sometimes you can see more on a scope output then an actual picture image output which is why waveform monitors were such a big thing back in the analog TV days.
True, but then they did also post this in an update about a month ago:This is another carefully worded statement. They said "Video", not "IR Video from the thermal sensor". If they only say "Video", I assume they only mean "Video" and absolutely nothing more.
"Firstly, I’d like to assuage any fears that we are only now working on WiFi. We have been developing that feature for some time now, and it has been working great. We believe wireless connectivity is a huge step up from USB. The software team has video coming in over the air and it is working flawlessly."
So if they have had video working flawlessly for the past month, why haven't we seen any of it? Answer: They don't have anything, beyond an idea that they can't get to work.
Either way they've gone to a lot of effort to either fake it
(which seems unnecessary IMO)
Good convincer is everything in long cons.
Yes, I'm still of the same opinion that it's not a total scam,
Also, they said this:The wording is very careful - they didn't actually say that Abe has a thermal image from the IR sensor. He might be looking at the sensor output on a scope and adjusting the bias voltages for the best apparent dynamic range of the signals seen on the scope. Sometimes you can see more on a scope output then an actual picture image output which is why waveform monitors were such a big thing back in the analog TV days.QuoteAbe is in the other room right now tweaking bias voltages and the like to get the best picture possible in the field. Turns out it’s just as hard to make the picture look great as it is just to get a picture in the first place.
If that's true then that means they must have a thermal image. Why don't they show it?
Report them to the FBI and let Mu-Thermal prove it WASN'T a deliberate fraud.You can try if you like, but if it turns out the money raised has gone into wages of development personnel, purchasing of parts, etc, the investigators will drop the investigation almost instantly. If they have set up a development team, then this will not look like a scam to any investigator. Mu Optics may get a wrap over the knuckles for using wording that could be called "deceptive" but I suspect that the investigators would not see any fraudulent statements. The contributors did contribute to the development of a new product that didn't exist - they did not purchase an existing product. There was no promised delivery date - there was an estimated delivery date. Mu Optics can explain away the delay in delivery in terms of the need for a change of design from a USB solution to a WiFi solution. They can show that they only just sourced a useable WiFi chip a few weeks ago.
http://www.fbi.gov/scams-safety/fraud/internet_fraud (http://www.fbi.gov/scams-safety/fraud/internet_fraud)
The project may fail - just like the majority of startups fail, but failure is not fraud.
Interesting facts about the video. Information about picture being simulated and not from real thermal camera is edited over real audio. Clip was quickly taken down and reuploaded - just enough time to read a comment congratulating them on amazing breakthrough in thermal imaging technology that let them grab thermal reading THROUGH A GLASS WINDOW, take it down, and redub the audio.
I don't totally agree with the "new rules" as renderings and simulations can be very handy in selling the concept... as long as they are clearly identified as such, and not passed as the real thing, or left for the potential backer to question -- as was the case with Mu.think the renderings thing is more about non-existent products, i.e. a rendering instead of any real hardware -for example if you showed a real working protoype in a hand-made or CNC'd case, I doubt there would be a problem also showing a rendering of a moulded case you're tying to raise money to tool for.
LensMoldable chalcogenide glasses make excellent long wave IR lenses, so you do not need the expensive lenses ground from a single Ge crystal.
Glass or materials like Calcium Fluoride are used for visible light lens.
LWIR requires that the lenses are made from Germanium, Ge, or similar materials.
There are potential routes to cheaper thermal imaging - polythene fresnel lenses with software geometry correction and DSP to pull signals out of noise, reflective optics
You can't really do thermal imaging by scanning due to the thermal mass, and hence slow response time of the sensor - remember a TI sensor is just an array of temperature sensorsThere are potential routes to cheaper thermal imaging - polythene fresnel lenses with software geometry correction and DSP to pull signals out of noise, reflective optics
It just hit me
http://dsp.rice.edu/cscamera (http://dsp.rice.edu/cscamera)
Does DLP reflect heat good enough, does it get hot on its own and how fast can you measure temperature in single detector? can you do it couple of thousand times per second (for one image)?
It just hit meYou can't really do thermal imaging by scanning due to the thermal mass, and hence slow response time of the sensor
http://dsp.rice.edu/cscamera (http://dsp.rice.edu/cscamera)
Does DLP reflect heat good enough, does it get hot on its own and how fast can you measure temperature in single detector? can you do it couple of thousand times per second (for one image)?
- remember a TI sensor is just an array of temperature sensors
Not sure about scanning being too slow as a totally accurate statement. Early thermal imaging cameras used the scanning mirror, as opposed to staring array, system and had a update rate of approximately 25fps, so the sensors they were using were capable of reacting quickly enough. Maybe a micro-bolometer isn't the right sensor ? BST technology was pretty quick.AFAIUI, those cameras also needed extreme cooling using liquid nitrogen or high perssure argon.
Quick look at Wikipedia reveals :
is it slow both ways? or is it fast to measure, but slow to cool down for another measurement?
Quick clueless google tells me Mercury Cadmium Telluride detectors are good up to ~100KHz.
The main limitation of LWIR HgCdTe-based detectors is that they need cooling to temperatures near that of liquid nitrogen (77K), to reduce noise due to thermally excited current carriers
• Maximum field acquisition rate: 25 Hz.
• Maximum line acquisition rate: 2500 Hz.
• Maximum number of lines per frame: 280 lines/frame (at 6.25 frames/second) (with interlace selection of 4:1à 4 fields compose 1 frame).
• Maximum frame acquisition rate: 25 frames/second (70 lines/frame).
I haven't read any of this thread but from the above post alone I can tell that this is never going to happen!
P.S. Why the hell does a thermal imaging camera need WiFi?! Arrrgh |O Edit: On second thoughts I suppose it is so that you can leave it in the lab monitoring...
I don't smell bullshit,
they've shown nothing except fake pictures and some software.
This update wasn't the first time he mentioned switching the optics component.
" Please keep in mind that PayPal continues to hold back a considerable amount of money until such time as we can show them that all the processes and parts and orders, and POs, etc. are in place to begin delivering the product."
BULLSHIT
First, we had to switch the image array in the beginning and that was a major setback. Quality and promised ability to deliver in quantity were the issues with original vendor. Finding a suitable replacement took some time. The imager we’re using now is of the highest quality and has been in the market for some time.
Bullshit or total incompetence When developing a new sensor, the last thing you'd do is make life harder by also having to get it working via wifi - you'd use a hardwired link.
WiFi working well allows us to more quickly show the IR image on the camera and debug.
The USB decision has not been made yet, mainly because we continue to investigate ways to do it properly for all external devices and….if we announce today that we’re not going to do it, the people who ask for refunds will be disapointed when we very soon after decide that, HEY…there is a simple way to do it. So….that decision waits for the WiFi to work well.Yeah, like USB is a really hard problem that nobody has a readily available solution for
This week we’re talking with multiple assemblers about how quickly they can ramp up production once the PCB is finalized, which is not long after these WiFi problems are settled.
As to when we think we’ll be delivering the final product….Another few weeks should give us the ability to solidify that date. No one wants this out in the market quickly more than we do.*Cough* approvals *Cough* production test *Cough* field testing
Dude, the PCB is by far the easiest and cheapest thing to adapt to everything else.
WiFi, lens, shutter, array, and the PCB are all so closely tied that the case, though nearly ready for manufacturing, remains on the drawing board until the PCB is finalized.
Designing and having PCBs made takes days, not weeks.Holy crap, an actual true fact! - must have slipped through by mistake
Machining a final case prototype takes days, not weeks. The engineer in charge of that is also quick and responsive... pity the same can't be said for production mould tooling
Our failure to meet our original delivery date is more due to my optimism than anything else.I think the word you're looking for is incompetence
I remain reluctant to show the interior of our camera and I’m sorry, but that reluctance will remain until we are much closer to a shipping date.You are either paranoid to the point of needing professional help, or lying.
I have however, asked Charles to look into releasing a partial parts list that doesn’t give any trade secrets away, and have asked for permission to do so from the vendors we have NDAs in place with.Yawn
I have also been in touch with IndieGoGo, explained the state of our campaign, and offered them a video tour of our efforts and a general conversation should they desire it. Thus far, they have not asked for further explanation.Like they care - they've already got their cut.
We are busy with the effort at hand. We are still being advised to keep as much of the internal project private until we enter large scale manufacturing. We would love to show pictures, but it is simply too easy to reverse engineer the product.If it was that easy, someone else would already be on the market - if a sensor really had been available "on the market for some time" as you claim, people would be using it. The level of ineptitude you've displayed thus far clearly illustrates you don't have anything special.
Which clearly shows complete incompetence - at this stage, people don't give a shit about a shiny app, just some demonstration that you have ANY working hardware, ANY at all... It is clear that you don't, and are nowhere near having any.
Showing a wirelessly transmitted IR image on the App as soon as possible remains our number one priority. Again, it’s number one.
Thanks to all who continue to support us.Please don't all ask for refunds, pleeeeeze.
As a new friend from our website said recently,And a thermal imager stops flooding how exactly?
“John:
I have been to your website…..the mobile infrared camera is a must. We just had 3 inches of water in our basement…this would have been perfect….hang in there.”
" Please keep in mind that PayPal continues to hold back a considerable amount of money until such time as we can show them that all the processes and parts and orders, and POs, etc. are in place to begin delivering the product."
BULLSHIT
" Please keep in mind that PayPal continues to hold back a considerable amount of money until such time as we can show them that all the processes and parts and orders, and POs, etc. are in place to begin delivering the product."
BULLSHIT
I have never heard of PayPal doing this. Anyone else?
https://developer.paypal.com/webapps/developer/docs/classic/lifecycle/crowdfunding/
If they just showed a blank prototype PCB, even for an old sensor, it would tell us a LOT about whether or not they are serious with the hardware.It would also tell everyone a LOT about the design.
...but they haven't.
I am inclined to think that you are talking through your bottom :-DDIn what way? Are you saying that if they posted a picture of the PCB, it would not be intensively analyzed here on the forum?
(Not you Dave... I'm talking to Mr Amspire)
Charles Ponzi gave refunds.No they didn't.
(Using other peoples money)
So did Bernie Madoff.
I've not yet found prices for thermal imaging sensors, but it's conceivable they could be around the $100~$150 mark for a 160x120 resolution.
Oh yes they did!Keef, if you want to attack people without the half decency of commenting on any point that person has made, you are wasting time and space.
(your turn)
Interesting, "cheap thermocam". Looks good. It's obviously limited by its slow refresh rate but shows the principle is practical.
Interesting, "cheap thermocam". Looks good. It's obviously limited by its slow refresh rate but shows the principle is practical.
Do you even need more than like 1Hz on a thermal cam? Honestly, I'd be happy with a thermal camera where you just take pictures. It's not like the main use cases need the 30fps of a typical video camera.
Interesting, "cheap thermocam". Looks good. It's obviously limited by its slow refresh rate but shows the principle is practical.
Do you even need more than like 1Hz on a thermal cam? Honestly, I'd be happy with a thermal camera where you just take pictures. It's not like the main use cases need the 30fps of a typical video camera.
See I don't understand why the confidence trickster needs to maintain confidence. He's got the money. Refunds are entirely optional on his part. He could basically walk away tomorrow and never reply.
Lighten up dude/old-chap!You said I was talking out of my ass when I made a post saying if a PCB photo was posted, it would be analyzed here. You think that is even funny? You must have got a great deal of fun posting that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme)
The Mu Thermal is not a Ponzi scam but it is clearly a scam.
A confidence trickster needs to maintain confidence (duh)
Handing out a few refunds to the noisiest complainers is the obvious thing to do.
It seems to have restored your confidence :)
If I have upset you with the suggestion that you engage in anal ventriloquism then please accept my apologies.
I have had to contend with much ruder suggestions than that.
It seems to have damaged my fragile eggshell mind.
The Fluke Ti9 has a 9 Frames per minute update rate. This was chosen because at 10 fps second some export restrictions kick in.I had assumed the Mu optics would have to be fixed focus, but perhaps to get enough IR light onto the sensor, you have to use a large aperture lens - which would mean you need a focus.
At 9 fps it is a little tricky to focus the camera.
When we see a PCB, we can work out a lot, and a big problem these guys have is if they can make an IR camera cheaply, there will be a lot of people who can do it 500% better. The moment they post a picture of the PCB, people on this list will be working out a lot about the design. From the pin count, visible traces from pins, clock connections, etc, it may even be possible to work out the micro family, the WiFi chip, the IR sensor. They may as well post the circuit and parts list. You seriously think they could post the PCB photo and not have it analyzed online here in the forum?
Isn't it the truth that if they show a picture of a PCB that shows no details, they will be slammed in this forum for not showing a decent HiRes picture? It could be a picture of any PCB.
If amazingly they have actually used an original concept in this design. they most definitely shouldn't give away even the smallest clues until they start to ship the product.
How about a machined prototype case?
Hi Amspire,
What type of object and at what distance?
The easiest thing for me to do is take one image focused and the other image set at infinity.
I will take images and post them.
I am inclined to think that you are talking through your bottom :-DDIn what way? Are you saying that if they posted a picture of the PCB, it would not be intensively analyzed here on the forum?
(Not you Dave... I'm talking to Mr Amspire)
Keef, you have personal experience with scammers. Have you ever heard of a scammer giving refunds? I have big doubts this project will succeed, but if they intend to take all the money and run, they could have taken all the money and run. Why give anyone a refund? Are they capable of designing the camera? They have not done a single thing yet that proves they are - not that they have to at this stage.
See I don't understand why the confidence trickster needs to maintain confidence. He's got the money. Refunds are entirely optional on his part. He could basically walk away tomorrow and never reply.
Bernie Madoff most certainly gave refunds. It's part of the documented history against the guy.Are you talking about refunds, or the promised investment returns. The investment returns payment were all part of the scam to get even more money invested - he had to religiously pay the returns he had promised. Money has been recovered but I thought that was only money recovered under legal threat or by the liquidator and from assets seized by prosecutors. Only half of 17.3 billion dollars has been recovered. He fabricated 65 Billion dollars of profits. Now that is a scam.
Bernie Madoff most certainly gave refunds. It's part of the documented history against the guy.Are you talking about refunds, or the promised investment returns. The investment returns payment were all part of the scam to get even more money invested - he had to religiously pay the returns he had promised. Money has been recovered but I thought that was only money recovered under legal threat or by the liquidator and from assets seized by prosecutors. Only half of 17.3 billion dollars has been recovered. He fabricated 65 Billion dollars of profits. Now that is a scam.
In the case of Mu Optics, the fundraising campaign is complete. If PayPal is retaining some money, we do not know how much. It sounds odd that PayPal would retain money - I do not understand that bit at all.
I can see no reason to fabricate the role and actions of PayPal other than to lull backers into a false sense of security about the safety of their money. And the only reason they would do that is to prevent people demanding refunds or thinking it's a sham.My only experience with Paypal refunds is when I paid $5 for a service manual PDF with schematics, and I got a link to the freely available manual available from the Agilent site with the service section cut out. As far as Paypal were concerned, I got something, and they said didn't care less if it wasn't what was advertised. They finished the message to me with a "Case closed. We will not reopen it" statement. I would hope they have improved from 5 years ago.
Apparently it does look like Paypal has started holding onto Indiegogo campaign money:
http://www.develop-online.net/news/43946/Paypal-witholds-Skullgirls-funding (http://www.develop-online.net/news/43946/Paypal-witholds-Skullgirls-funding)
It sounds like PayPal went to the company involved and ask if they were good to refund all the money if there were callbacks. They said no - that is why they needed the money from the campaign - they don't have the money. Paypal then froze the account until a Consumer Financial Complaint Bureau complaint was filed against them.
"Please keep in mind that PayPal continues to hold back a considerable amount of money until such time as we can show them that all the processes and parts and orders, and POs, etc. are in place to begin delivering the product."
I believe that statement to be an outright fabrication.
I believe that statement to be an outright fabrication. As I said in an earlier post, PayPal's only concern is chargebacks and making sure that they get paid. They do not achieve this by inspecting companies and making judgements about the likelihood of delivery of product.I agree it does not sound like a frank explanation of the situation with PayPal. As with many of their other statements, it sounds like Mu Optics have chosen the wording to convey the situation in a favourable way. One reason PayPal would get worried would be that chargebacks are occurring, and they are really worried they will continue to occur at an accelerated rate.
Not necessarily - anything critical could easily be blanked outIf they just showed a blank prototype PCB, even for an old sensor, it would tell us a LOT about whether or not they are serious with the hardware.It would also tell everyone a LOT about the design.
...but they haven't.
When we see a PCB, we can work out a lot, and a big problem these guys have is if they can make an IR camera cheaply, there will be a lot of people who can do it 500% better. The moment they post a picture of the PCB, people on this list will be working out a lot about the design. From the pin count, visible traces from pins, clock connections, etc, it may even be possible to work out the micro family, the WiFi chip, the IR sensor. They may as well post the circuit and parts list. You seriously think they could post the PCB photo and not have it analyzed online here in the forum?
Isn't it the truth that if they show a picture of a PCB that shows no details, they will be slammed in this forum for not showing a decent HiRes picture? It could be a picture of any PCB.
If they actually succeed, how long do you think they can sell the camera's for until they are undercut by Chinese-made cameras?If cheap sensors were available, the Chinese would already be selling cameras based on them.
If amazingly they have actually used an original concept in this design. they most definitely shouldn't give away even the smallest clues until they start to ship the product.On the contrary, their credibility is now zero, and has severey damaged any chance they may have had on getting any more investment or being taken seriously by suppliers. If they had shown some evidence they had anything, it might have still been credible.
They have been accused here of being scammers, liars, frauds - you name it. I don't see why they should add "unbelievably stupid" to the list by showing their PCB at this time or at they time they actually have a genuine first revision prototype PCB.They could easily show evidence that they are not lying without giving anything away. They haven't.
But he didn't.Bernie Madoff most certainly gave refunds. It's part of the documented history against the guy.He had to religiously pay the returns he had promised.
To Lexy,And don't forget you'd need a DLP device with a germanium window.
The MLX90614 sensor is fine for a IR thermometer. Its response time is not fast enough in my opinion for an imager. The datasheet suggests the fast settling time is 0.04 seconds.
To build a 120 x 160 image (19,200 pixels)
19,200 x 0.04 = 768 seconds (12.8 minutes)
The other challenge is that if you arrange the optics so that the sensor was looking at the entire DLP array and you only turned on one pixel worth of mirrors, you would only get 1/19200 of the thermal energy image hitting the sensor. The rest of the sensor would be measuring whatever the other mirrors were pointing at.
Jay_Diddy_B
For those wondering about the focus issue (not that important compared to the TI detector IMHO) you may be interested to hear that all of my Fire Brigade TIC's are fixed focus 1m to infinity using a 25mm multi element Germanium lens structure. They are no good for looking at PCB's unless you fit a lens in front of them like I detailed earlier.If you can adjust the lens-to-sensor distance you can focus closer - I managed to hack my FireFlir to do this and it works well on PCB-level things, although depth of field is limited.
Hello All,
I thought I’d share with you a few pieces of hardware and manufacturing news.
On the hardware end, I’m happy to be able to say that we’ve settled on a microcontroller from Atmel, the Sam3x. This 84MHz MCU is the brains of the imager, it drives the image sensor and the communications equipment. We’ve been using this chip since early in the development cycle and trust it to be able to give great performance in the camera.
We also have a wireless chipset from RedPine Signals that enables realtime wireless video from the imager to your smartphone or computer. It’s been very fun adding wireless and we think that we have a few more tweaks we can implement to get some added functionality out of it.
We’re narrowing down our assembly options(there have been a lot of potential manufacturers) and for our electronics and pcb manufacturing, our current top contenders are “Advanced Circuits” and “American Standard Circuits”. Both great companies.
As we work to get the case and body of the imager finalized, we have come up with a few slight modifications to the body that we are currently considering. If those ideas go anywhere, I’ll try to post pictures of the possible changes down the road.
As always, Thanks for all of your support. We can’t wait to get the first imagers into your hands and see what uses you come up with. (I personally really want to see someone mount one to a quadcopter drone).
Cheers,
-Charles and the MuOptics Team.
That's an old update, here is the latest:QuoteHello All,
I thought I’d share with you a few pieces of hardware and manufacturing news.
On the hardware end, I’m happy to be able to say that we’ve settled on a microcontroller from Atmel, the Sam3x. This 84MHz MCU is the brains of the imager, it drives the image sensor and the communications equipment. We’ve been using this chip since early in the development cycle and trust it to be able to give great performance in the camera.
We also have a wireless chipset from RedPine Signals that enables realtime wireless video from the imager to your smartphone or computer. It’s been very fun adding wireless and we think that we have a few more tweaks we can implement to get some added functionality out of it.
We’re narrowing down our assembly options(there have been a lot of potential manufacturers) and for our electronics and pcb manufacturing, our current top contenders are “Advanced Circuits” and “American Standard Circuits”. Both great companies.
As we work to get the case and body of the imager finalized, we have come up with a few slight modifications to the body that we are currently considering. If those ideas go anywhere, I’ll try to post pictures of the possible changes down the road.
As always, Thanks for all of your support. We can’t wait to get the first imagers into your hands and see what uses you come up with. (I personally really want to see someone mount one to a quadcopter drone).
Cheers,
-Charles and the MuOptics Team.
Once again, they talk about their development cycle and infer prototypes, but continue to still not show them.
They sold these things for $125 (early birds) to $150 (the rest). Depending on which version of the Sam3x chip they are using, that represents around 10% of the ENTIRE cost of the camera, JUST FOR THAT ONE CHIP!
I bet the PCB will be at least $5-10. The housing will be another $5-10. Assembly will be $10-15 easy, or more. All the passives and connectors and associated simpleparts on the board will be another $10-15. So you're looking at $35 to $50 before you've spent a penny on the imager or lens, or packaging, or *labor*, or shipping.
I do a ton of product design and manufacturing. To turn a profit, your parts cost should be about 1/10th of your retail price.
That means the Mu guys have between $13 and $40 to spend on parts. If they are already into this for a $10 MCU, $5 PCB, $10 assembly, $5 housing, $10 worth of connectors and passives - there is no money left for the imager or lens!
And I can't be the only one thinking "wait, if they got the price down because some new imager technology had come out that they had to sign an NDA for ... how can they still do the product claiming that company is no longer going to be a supplier, but ANOTHER company has a similar cheap imager that has been on the market for years?".
Marcus Deely said 4 days ago
Kris,
We do have a thermal sensor. It’s in an open prototype; I can see one from where I’m sitting!
But anyhow, when trying to figure out the financial angle, you need to budget with a $400 retail price instead of $150.
But anyhow, when trying to figure out the financial angle, you need to budget with a $400 retail price instead of $150.
Why? They didnt get 400, they got something like $250/unit from the campain. You arent suggesting they run a charity? :)
Hmm, maybe the angle is to scam some big company into buying them out?
I'm guessing H.264 will be done on the phone
Re. the money numbers :-
"$125 ....... Shipipng not included. This represents $200 off the MSRP."
"$150 ....... Shipping not included, This represents $175 discount off the MSRP."
"$300 ....... (BRANDED camera)Shipping is included only in the U.S, This is a $100 discount to what we expect will be the MSRP."
So any budget calcs need to be done assuming a retail price of $325.
Crowdfunded projects usually operate at a loss. Sometimes by design
Labor essentially is the assembly cost. Ok, so you have some testing, but this qty could be done in-house by them.
The often quoted figure for small player prototypes is Retail = 2.5 x BOM cost (minimum). To make it worthwhile.
Don't forget the battery. Or NRE for the case. NRE for PCB and assembly gets easily absorbed into 2000 boards, but I doubt that's the same for the case.
Yes, that is very strange. If the sensor has been on the market for years, someone would have used it already in a low cost product.
But ultimately you are right, they can't possibly meet this price point and make a profit for sub 2000qty unless the sensor + lens is going to cost maybe $20 tops. And if a 160x120 thermal sensor exists for that price (and has been for some time) the market would have already gone apeshit with it.
We haven't factored in the several employees they have either.
The numbers don't add up.
Did you read the rest of my post? Many of the earlier posts doing budget calculations were assuming they were looking at making a profit on these early sales so assuming they are willing to supply them at cost just to get the money in/the units out there then they have $150 for component cost/development with the profit (if any) to come from future retail sales.
Martin.
Here's a decent intro to all the costs associated with distribution:
https://www.nuvonium.com/blog/view/how-to-price-your-product-for-retail-distributor-and-direct-to-consumer-sal (https://www.nuvonium.com/blog/view/how-to-price-your-product-for-retail-distributor-and-direct-to-consumer-sal)
And we never even considered testing/approvals (FCC, and whatever equivalents around the world).
On the hardware end, I’m happy to be able to say that we’ve settled on a microcontroller from Atmel, the Sam3x...
We’re narrowing down our assembly options(there have been a lot of potential manufacturers) and for our electronics and pcb manufacturing, our current top contenders are “Advanced Circuits” and “American Standard Circuits”...
That's an old update, here is the latest::blah:QuoteHello All,
I thought I’d share with you a few pieces of hardware and manufacturing news.
- They said before that they having a lot of trouble with WiFi and that's now all fun? :wtf:QuoteOn the hardware end, I’m happy to be able to say that we’ve settled on a microcontroller from Atmel, the Sam3x. This 84MHz MCU is the brains of the imager, it drives the image sensor and the communications equipment. We’ve been using this chip since early in the development cycle and trust it to be able to give great performance in the camera.
We also have a wireless chipset from RedPine Signals that enables realtime wireless video from the imager to your smartphone or computer. It’s been very fun adding wireless and we think that we have a few more tweaks we can implement to get some added functionality out of it.
What a great BS bingo.QuoteWe’re narrowing down our assembly options(there have been a lot of potential manufacturers) and for our electronics and pcb manufacturing, our current top contenders are “Advanced Circuits” and “American Standard Circuits”. Both great companies.
Showing changes without any state before? :-//QuoteAs we work to get the case and body of the imager finalized, we have come up with a few slight modifications to the body that we are currently considering. If those ideas go anywhere, I’ll try to post pictures of the possible changes down the road.
It is so bold. :palm:QuoteAs always, Thanks for all of your support. We can’t wait to get the first imagers into your hands and see what uses you come up with. (I personally really want to see someone mount one to a quadcopter drone).
Cheers,
-Charles and the MuOptics Team.
Once again, they talk about their development cycle and infer prototypes, but continue to still not show them.
QuoteOn the hardware end, I’m happy to be able to say that we’ve settled on a microcontroller from Atmel, the Sam3x...
We’re narrowing down our assembly options(there have been a lot of potential manufacturers) and for our electronics and pcb manufacturing, our current top contenders are “Advanced Circuits” and “American Standard Circuits”...
Just now figuring out the MCU and assembly house? They also seem to think that it's all downhill from here. I've used advanced circuits for assembly runs before. They're a good company and do good work, but they're not cheap and they're not fast. Expedited assembled boards could cost a third of the $125 base price before you even get into the components.
Ridiculous.
Aside from that, while I never have used ASC, I have used AC and they are not cheap - not at all. I can't understand why Mu would choose these two as their suppliers?
Why do they even need to 'choose a supplier' when they are still changing WiFi modules and imaging sensors?
It does have a battery. I don't see any issues with size, and the given functionality.
...Why? Lots of businessmen that stand behind their product do that and walk away with head high. How believable are you when you only talk to likeminded reporters?
With the open hostility though, they would have to be crazy to agree to an interview.
I would be very surprised if they weren't already keeping tabs on this thread. It's been linked multiple times in the backer comments area.
With the open hostility though, they would have to be crazy to agree to an interview.
After 13 pages of conjecture, how about contacting them and interviewing them on the Amp Hour?
Send Chris with a camera to sneak in to their headquarters! :-DD
Send Chris with a camera to sneak in to their headquarters! :-DD
you mean that rented set? or owners house?
It would have to be Chris doing the interview, diplomacy does not appear to be Dave's strong point. ;)Nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade especially when this lot have not really given any good reason to be diplomatic. I think many people tried that approach at the start of all this but it appears that it only resulted in more wishy washy updates.
A quick Google shows they operate from: http://www.rethinkstudios.tv/contact/ (http://www.rethinkstudios.tv/contact/)
Streetview shows big garbage container at the spot they marked.
Hello All,
Sorry for the long silence. It’s been an incredibly busy week. New PCBs, new cases, new equipment. We will be sending out a new prototype run early next week if everything goes to plan, and then we will be assembling what should basically be the final product.
On another note, we’ve been getting hundreds of emails through our website from people wanting to pre-order cameras. So we’ve launched a new website with a pre-order form. The pre-order will be first come first serve, and anyone that is interested in getting the camera can reserve a spot in the queue. Our first production run will go to all of our IndieGoGo backers, and to a few large companies that have expressed interest in purchasing large volumes so that they can do an evaluation period. After that, as cameras become available, they will go to anyone that pre-ordered. Pre-ordering requires no payment, and does not represent an obligation to purchase a camera. So if you know someone who is interested in getting a camera. Send them to muoptics.com.
Cheers!
Sorry for the long silence. It’s been an incredibly busy week. New PCBs, new cases, new equipment. We will be sending out a new prototype run early next week if everything goes to plan, and then we will be assembling what should basically be the final product.
I had to laugh at this line
" few large companies that have expressed interest in purchasing large volumes so that they can do an evaluation period"
I had to laugh at this line
" few large companies that have expressed interest in purchasing large volumes so that they can do an evaluation period"
I suspect what this actually meant was "We are interested in purchasing large quantities, can we have a freebie to evaluate"
I still have a hard time believing any company contacted them and expressed interest in a large volume purchase based on what has been shown so far.
I still have a hard time believing any company contacted them and expressed interest in a large volume purchase based on what has been shown so far.
I'm sure there are plenty of Corporate Suits as clueless as the punters who've waseted their money on this.
What if it were an 80x60 with 70mK of sensitivity?
I do have a question though...is there a real interest from a commercial standpoint for an imaging head unit such as what they are trying to do?I have no doubt there is - as soon as it gets down to 'cool toy' pricing people will buy it for fun. It would also be a valuable tool for anyone in the electrical or electronics field for rapid faultfinding, as well as the whole home energy thing that the mu people are targetting.
What if it were an 80x60 with 70mK of sensitivity?
This sounds like a fun little project. I will take one of our 320x240 cores and window it to 80x60...but wouldn't that still cost 320x240 money? Maybe the optics would be cheaper.
I think there is a large market out there for a cheap thermal camera (and by cheap I mean well under $1000)
80x60 would probably be fine for the above situations. Something for thermal checking of PCB's would interest me as well so would need a fairly close focus ability.
Studies have show that $300 is the magical "toy" price point that Mike was talking about.
Above that and it becomes an "investment" in a tool.
What I am proposing to play with is an 80x60 at 30Hz with 70mK sensitivity with bluetooth, wifi, and USB connectivity to a smart device. The faster the volumes move to 3-4K per year, the closer to $400 we can get.
I'd like a near and far focus option but not sure if that's asking too much.
Martin.
What I am proposing to play with is an 80x60 at 30Hz with 70mK sensitivity with bluetooth, wifi, and USB connectivity to a smart device. The faster the volumes move to 3-4K per year, the closer to $400 we can get.
Incidentally I wonder what the legalities would be of hacking an exported 9FPS camera outside the US....
Yeah but as the US consider them the same as arms, it could have repercussions on the manufacturer if their gear turned out to be hackable. Obviously the regs were written before this sort of possibility was even thought of.Incidentally I wonder what the legalities would be of hacking an exported 9FPS camera outside the US....
Who cares.
It's yours, you can do what you want with it subject to local law.
Is there anyone on here that has actually contributed money to the Mu Optics project on IGG?
It's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone who published a hack could be arrested on entry to US for subverting export regs.
It's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone who published a hack could be arrested on entry to US for subverting export regs.
Nothing is beyond the realms of possibility with the Yanks, because they think international law does not apply to them, and they can do anything they like.
Always reminds me of this:
Star Wars Episode 1 - "I will make it legal" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nz20lu2AM2k#ws)
Is there anyone on here that has actually contributed money to the Mu Optics project on IGG?
Is there anyone on here that has actually contributed money to the Mu Optics project on IGG?
http://www.builtinchicago.org/blog/innovative-factory-clients-mu-optics-and-scout-alarm-taking-crowdfunding-new-heights (http://www.builtinchicago.org/blog/innovative-factory-clients-mu-optics-and-scout-alarm-taking-crowdfunding-new-heights)
Am I reading that correctly? Mu Optics raised $1.93M!? I would have LOVED to have that much funding...damn!
Also, I am not sure if anyone has seen this...
http://www.builtinchicago.org/blog/innovative-factory-clients-mu-optics-and-scout-alarm-taking-crowdfunding-new-heights (http://www.builtinchicago.org/blog/innovative-factory-clients-mu-optics-and-scout-alarm-taking-crowdfunding-new-heights)
Am I reading that correctly? Mu Optics raised $1.93M!? I would have LOVED to have that much funding...damn!
Is there anyone on here that has actually contributed money to the Mu Optics project on IGG?
I really really wanted one of these. It was just too good to be true. Luckily I already had bad experiences with "too good to be true" things in the internet, so I opted for waiting. There was only few days left on this project and negative comments on the hackaday.com article about mu thermal camera were starting to pile up.
Then I noticed the hackaday comments regarding mu thermal disappeared? Anyone else notice this? The hackaday mu thermal comments came back after the funding time ran out. When the comments disappeared I checked and none of the other hackaday articles comments were gone. So it couldn't have been problem with website/database or anything like that.
hackaday was playing with layouts at the time, you must of visited mid layout swap or something
Then I noticed the hackaday comments regarding mu thermal disappeared?
I don't know what the end game will be but I'll get some popcorn in. Someone has just thrown in the spanner about legal restrictions of exporting thermal imaging kit from the USA. BTW slight tangent, was watching a search and rescue documentary last night and the resolution of their imagers is pretty incredibly, anyone know what the actual resolution of that sort of kit is and what price it runs at?
Martin.
What's everyone's opinion on the Fluke VT02? http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/thermometers/infrared-thermometers/vt02-visual-ir-thermometer.htm?pid=75051 (http://www.fluke.com/fluke/usen/thermometers/infrared-thermometers/vt02-visual-ir-thermometer.htm?pid=75051)
Thanks for the pictures Dave! We don't see you put "Fluke" and "sucked" in the same sentence very often ;D
Fluke are very coy about the resolution of the VT02 sensor, but DeWalt have a very similar "Imaging Thermometer" with a 15 by 15 sensor.
Fluke are very coy about the resolution of the VT02 sensor, but DeWalt have a very similar "Imaging Thermometer" with a 15 by 15 sensor.
There is too much similarity there.
Although they do say "Utilizes pyro-electric technology, exclusive to Fluke".
:-//
Yes, they are clearly playing off their brand name here.
If they had a prototype running then why haven't they been able to show ANY evidence of at at all.
Martin.
I agree! I am just saying at one point it appears they had a prototype running. So amid all the chip changing and usb/wifi dicussions they could go back to that prototype and show a black box connected to a phone making pretty pictures.
waffle waffle waffle - same old lies.... I really don't understand why they are continuing to string it out - they have the money, they're not going to get any more, no sign of any chance of ever shipping anything... 'spose it maybe adds credibility to a possible claim that they were trying to deliver something...
Sorry for the delayed update again, it’s been a very busy week here. We received new case models, and have been discussing slight changes now that we’ve actually been able to hold the new models with the new materials. We’re looking at ways to cut down the size a little and make it as comfortable to hold as possible. We are aiming to make it feel like you’re holding a point-and-shoot digital camera. We ordered a new reflow soldering oven for our new proto-boards, but unfortunately that oven was apparently damaged in shipping, so they’re sending us a new one which I hope will be here in the next few days. This board should hopefully be the last one that we use to tweak the system, and then we will be able to retool for the new case. These next few weeks are really looking like the end run for design. (At least that’s our hope, if everything comes together)."
Apparently the IR-Blue is actually shipping to backers: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andyrawson/ir-blue-thermal-imaging-smartphone-accessory/posts/502053 (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andyrawson/ir-blue-thermal-imaging-smartphone-accessory/posts/502053)The two are completely unconnected. IR-Blue was clearly a realistic product based on an available part based on established technology.
That might mean that there is a shred of possibility of mu optics pulling through (however, very unlikely).
There is NO available sensor that meets mu's spec/price point. If there was, someone more competent would be on the market with it already.
And there's no way that a manufacturer of any new & innovative sensor would (still) be granting idiots like mu any exclusivity on it.
The imager we’re using now is of the highest quality and has been in the market for some time.That makes the sensor non-exclusive and essentially "off the shelf".
such a cheap sensor would have caused a huge stir in the market and you'd have a dozen companies and hackers everywhere working on it.Probably not hackers - due to export controls, manufacturers of these sensors are somewhat cautious about who they deal with. You won't see them in Digikey any time soon.
Probably not hackers - due to export controls, manufacturers of these sensors are somewhat cautious about who they deal with. You won't see them in Digikey any time soon.
What kind of nefarious fun are the export controls trying to stop?Heat seeking missiles, probably.
What kind of nefarious fun are the export controls trying to stop?
Wouldn't you say that the specs of this unit
http://www.pce-instruments.com/deutsch/messtechnik-im-online-handel/messgeraete-fuer-alle-parameter/waermebildkamera-pce-holding-gmbh-waermebildkamera-pce-tc-31-det_387592.htm?_list=qr.art&_listpos=1 (http://www.pce-instruments.com/deutsch/messtechnik-im-online-handel/messgeraete-fuer-alle-parameter/waermebildkamera-pce-holding-gmbh-waermebildkamera-pce-tc-31-det_387592.htm?_list=qr.art&_listpos=1)
is very similar to the Muoptics claimed specs?
Most other countries have export restrictions of some kind, so the situation is probably similar wherever things are made. And even if not, any manufacturer would not want to risk being barred from the US market, or having supplies of critical parts or materials for letting potential baddies have access to thermal imaging on their i-phones.Probably not hackers - due to export controls, manufacturers of these sensors are somewhat cautious about who they deal with. You won't see them in Digikey any time soon.
True, but not if the sensor isn't from the land of Uncle Sam.
Yes, I sure someone has already mentioned that way back, and I think one of the backers said it was likely the commercial one used in their promo shots.
if Thermal Imager product became very cheap, isnot good things?
That being said, the cameras will be firmware upgradable. JTAG, USB, and possibly OTA updates will be possible, however we will likely only support USB with the firmware that ships on the cameras. We will later release new firmwares that will enable the other update methods.
How can you not support JTAG?
How can you not support JTAG?
Charles McGrath posted an announcement:
Hello All,
I saw some discussion in the comments about the thermal resolution of the camera. So I thought that I’d talk a little about that.
Our MCU does have an onboard Analog to Digital Converter(ADC) which does run at 1Msps(Million samples per second), but we won’t be using that due to a logic level discrepency with the microbolometer. Therefore we have a dedicated ADC on the board to convert the image data.
With an image resolution at 160×120, that gives us 19,200 pixels in each frame. At 30 fps, that gives us 576000 data points each second. For the best thermal resolution, we are sampling at 12bits. Giving us about 6.9Mbps of output.
Cheers!
I didn't want to bore people with a repost, and assumd they could read it on IGG if they wanted. [or are they visible to backers only?]That's actually the most plausible thing I've seen from them to date, apart from the 'logic level discrepency', which could just be him not quite understanding the words the tech guy is saying.
Anyway, here it is:QuoteCharles McGrath posted an announcement:
Hello All,
I saw some discussion in the comments about the thermal resolution of the camera. So I thought that I’d talk a little about that.
Our MCU does have an onboard Analog to Digital Converter(ADC) which does run at 1Msps(Million samples per second), but we won’t be using that due to a logic level discrepency with the microbolometer. Therefore we have a dedicated ADC on the board to convert the image data.
With an image resolution at 160×120, that gives us 19,200 pixels in each frame. At 30 fps, that gives us 576000 data points each second. For the best thermal resolution, we are sampling at 12bits. Giving us about 6.9Mbps of output.
Cheers!
I didn't want to bore people with a repost, and assumd they could read it on IGG if they wanted. [or are they visible to backers only?]That's actually the most plausible thing I've seen from them to date, apart from the 'logic level discrepency', which could just be him not quite understanding the words the tech guy is saying.
Anyway, here it is:QuoteCharles McGrath posted an announcement:
Hello All,
I saw some discussion in the comments about the thermal resolution of the camera. So I thought that I’d talk a little about that.
Our MCU does have an onboard Analog to Digital Converter(ADC) which does run at 1Msps(Million samples per second), but we won’t be using that due to a logic level discrepency with the microbolometer. Therefore we have a dedicated ADC on the board to convert the image data.
With an image resolution at 160×120, that gives us 19,200 pixels in each frame. At 30 fps, that gives us 576000 data points each second. For the best thermal resolution, we are sampling at 12bits. Giving us about 6.9Mbps of output.
Cheers!
Quite plausible you'd need 12 bits for full range from an imager.
I can't think of anything you couldn't fix with some external circuitry - could be that the sensor output is 5V or bipolar, or needs buffering. But an external ADC could well have better performance.I didn't want to bore people with a repost, and assumd they could read it on IGG if they wanted. [or are they visible to backers only?]That's actually the most plausible thing I've seen from them to date, apart from the 'logic level discrepency', which could just be him not quite understanding the words the tech guy is saying.
Anyway, here it is:QuoteCharles McGrath posted an announcement:
Hello All,
I saw some discussion in the comments about the thermal resolution of the camera. So I thought that I’d talk a little about that.
Our MCU does have an onboard Analog to Digital Converter(ADC) which does run at 1Msps(Million samples per second), but we won’t be using that due to a logic level discrepency with the microbolometer. Therefore we have a dedicated ADC on the board to convert the image data.
With an image resolution at 160×120, that gives us 19,200 pixels in each frame. At 30 fps, that gives us 576000 data points each second. For the best thermal resolution, we are sampling at 12bits. Giving us about 6.9Mbps of output.
Cheers!
Quite plausible you'd need 12 bits for full range from an imager.
Don't the SAM3X chips have a 12-bit ADC with 1M samples/sec built in?
http://www.atmel.com/devices/SAM3X4C.aspx?tab=parameters (http://www.atmel.com/devices/SAM3X4C.aspx?tab=parameters)
I can't comprehend what "logic level discrepancy" means in terms of sampling with an ADC?!
I didn't want to bore people with a repost, and assumd they could read it on IGG if they wanted. [or are they visible to backers only?]
Anyway, here it is:
I agree whole heartedly. The only thing that matters at this point is tangible proof of a working camera prototype, or notification of delivery. Any other discussion is just a waste of words. I would expect that a mass exodus is going to happen soon unless they produce something of substance.
If I was them would have been in serious PR panic mode a long time ago, and squashed the nay-sayers on the head. To let it have have gotten this far without showing anything of substance is just project suicide. It's trivial given how easy it is to snap a photo of the prototype case(s), prototype board(s), test image or whatever.
P.S. Unlike what I would give to MuOptiBullSh*t :palm: I heap tons of applause onto IR Blue for making an awesome, legit product. These guys really deserve it, so here's a link: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andyrawson/ir-blue-thermal-imaging-smartphone-accessory (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andyrawson/ir-blue-thermal-imaging-smartphone-accessory)
P.S. Unlike what I would give to MuOptiBullSh*t :palm: I heap tons of applause onto IR Blue for making an awesome, legit product. These guys really deserve it, so here's a link: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andyrawson/ir-blue-thermal-imaging-smartphone-accessory (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andyrawson/ir-blue-thermal-imaging-smartphone-accessory)
Unfortunately I came too late to get one, but there'll probably be Eagle files etc. available soon to make one :)
Polythene can be used - it's used for most PIR sensors, however purely on the basis that nobody's done it, I'd guess it isn't clear enough to be practical. most, if not all the low-res thermopile arrays available use (AFAIK) silicon rather than polythene. There is a company linked somewhere in this thread that claims to have some plastic fresnel lenses suitable for thermal imaging.Can't a fresnel lens and a cold mirror work for the optics?
No. All I'm going to say is that plastic and glass completely block the passage of thermal wavelengths.
A germanium lens that size would cost around $450 (edmundoptics.com/optics/optical-lenses/ir-lenses/germanium-meniscus-lenses/3081).If it costs that much from a specialist scientific distributor like Edmund, a high volume price between $50 and 75 is easily plausible. I know a company that uses that smaller lenses for a 16x16 sensor (approx 10mm dia) and pays something between $10 and $20 for them in 10K volumes. You probably do need something larger, or multiple elements for 160x120 to be useable though.
OK, y'all. As far as I can tell, this is how the whole thing has played out.
John McGrath, the lead guy, is damn rich. On a whim, he decided to buy a $6,000 FLIR E50 or E60 (other possibilities there) or just acquired one somehow. (flir. com/cs/emea/en/view/?id=41372) He found it pretty neat, and had the childish thought that he would make his own and mass produce it for less. (Kind of like what the guys in October Sky were thinking, but far more moronic and petty.)
I was just recently asked about exact same type of project idea, but for medical ultrasound imaging. The brilliant idea they have is that most of the cost of medical imaging is in the display, so if they replace the graphical display with an iPad, they could produce it for a fraction of the cost. Just design an ultrasound probe that we could plug into an iPhone or iPad -- it should be easy with an Arduino. What's next? CT Scan or MRI anyone?
Were they knowledgeable about the requirements for developing medical devices? The mandatory processes and mandatory documentation I have seen for developing medical equipment is not for the faint of heart. If I got it right you can't even do some stuff retroactively. I.e. you can't just happily develop something in whatever way you like and in the end get it somehow certified. You need to follow the mandatory stuff right from the beginning of the development, otherwise you don't have a chance to get it certified.
They are also deleting all comments older than a certain date. At first I thought this was a limitation of IGG, that it only sowed comments for the last 30 days, but now the Mu history goes back 2 months... and after looking at a few other projects, they go all the way back to day 1, so Mu is definitely removing old comments. [and some of that history would have been useful in building a legal case against them] So add that as another data point for the "scam" column.
Out of curiosity, how hard is it to get hold of a low-ish resolution IR microbolometer? I can find plenty of information on them (and a retailer I'm friendly with is attempting to get samples of an 80x80 unit), but I can't seem to find them for sale.Very hard. Manufacturers aren't interested in anyone not looking to buy thousands. They are also export controlled, which adds additional complications. Highest res ones that are obtainable are 16x4 from Melexis and 8x8 from Panasonic (Latter only easily obtainable in US)
Charles McGrath posted an announcement less than a minute ago
To all of our supporters,
Just as so many technology and software teams find themselves missing well-intentioned timelines, so too has the MuOptics development team.
When this project became an IndieGoGo campaign, we knew that we could put together a thermal imaging camera, and we had a plan to make a quality imager at a price that would allow for the democratization of thermography. Unfortunately, this project, just like any new venture, came with unanticipated hurdles. For those of you who have never run a hardware/software design and development project…this is a good read.
http://www.quora.com/Engineering-Management/Why... (http://www.quora.com/Engineering-Management/Why...)
Regretfully, the person who first estimated the ship date is not an engineer or a programmer. The non-engineer is now just working with our suppliers, assemblers, and shippers and allowing the engineers to just get the work done. That said, we’re getting close.
As we worked to reduce and refine the construction of our own camera core; code issues, compatibility problems, and politics continued to arise. All of these problems have thus far proven to be conquerable. The development team has dutifully worked to overcome these hurdles and are getting closer by the day to producing the final release version of the Thermal Imager.
We are impossibly excited to have the opportunity to produce a quality product at an as-of-yet unheard of price.
We thank all of you for your continued support and we promise to publish a new shipping date as soon as we are able.
We’re posting some images of one of our recent prototype boards and of the team working.
Sincerely,
-MuOptics
I took the liberty of rehosting the image that was posted of the "prototype board", since I know they've been sneaky in the past and modified images after first posting them.
The blue box is Atmel SAM-ICE - ARM JTAG debugger.
If that really is a recent proto they still look miles away from a real product - big connectors, huge and ugly lens holder...
..and I don't see any evidence of a reference shutter, though could be at the rear.
I see no major SMD components on the top of the board, so unless they are on the bottom, it appears to be just a holder/breakout/demo board for the sensor itself.
The standard mounting posts in the corner and the huge header and big slider switch(?) have all the hallmark of classic demo board arrangement.
So, he's an app developer. Any hardware expertise?
Having studied Physics and Aerospace Engineering, I have a strong background in practical programming and systems development.
It looks like the SMD components might be on the bottom. In the table reflection, you can see a gull-wing SMD IC(which, frankly could be anything) right below the power cable and above the lens reflection.
The "big slider switch" looks like it's actually a 0.1" female header (5 or 6 pin?) with a 0.1" 2-pin male header behind it right next to the lens.
It has been recognized just a couple of messages before your first question. It is Atmel SAM-ICE JTAG debugger.
Am I mistaken, or have they removed the last update from the campaign page?
Very strange indeed, perhaps people were harassing the guy (Abe Burleigh??) and he did not appreciate the attention.
Yep, that's a RedPine radio in the corner [was hidden behind the ICE cable in the original photo], that's the Atmel MCU in the foreground, I'm guessing the gull-wing SMT component on the bottom [in the previous photo] is the ADC due to its proximity to the imaging sensor. The lens holder appears to be 3D printed. Finally a pair of images that [partially] corroborate what they have been saying for specs... though it's way late. My question is "Was that so hard?" -- The answer to that probably is that they didn't have anything to show till now. Given that they are only showing now [what appears to be a first run prototype, maybe 2nd... but then why didn't they show the other one?], they started from nothing more than an idea at the close of the campaign -- much less than what they led on to have.
Still no imagery from the sensor, which still begs the question of whether they can actually make it work, at the price-point promised? [We have no idea what imaging sensor lies under that lens]
Anyway, I guess the question the original poster posed 4 months ago in this massive thread is no, it's not fake.
It was fake back then, and still is at this price point.
Anyway, I guess the question the original poster posed 4 months ago in this massive thread is no, it's not fake.
But it seems they are a long long long way from delivering the camera as promised.
The RedPine module featured is around $35 -- not a cheap part!$35 for the wireless is the least of their problems..
I think the Mu guys did some very (very) basic costing from a perspective that was absolutely naive about manufacturing and production...and clueless about the physics and costs of thermal imaging - I bet they thought it was little different to normal image sensors and optics.
A lot of people put $$ in, and I'll bet their money supply has been eroding ever since. They bought hardware and software, prototype parts, plus the cost of just running a business, even "on the cheap".I can't believe that at this stage they don't know how much the sensor and optics will cost. That would have been the Oh Shit moment...
They certainly aren't going with all the cheapest parts (i.e. the Sam3x and Redpine module), so I think what will happen is they'll get to the point where they think they can make something... only to find out they have only 1/5th of the funds needed to do a production run.
That will be the oh-shit moment.
I can't believe that at this stage they don't know how much the sensor and optics will cost. That would have been the Oh Shit moment...
I wonder if it's possible, perhaps even considerably cheaper, to buy thermal imaging sensors with many dead pixels? I can buy cheap China PAL/NTSC cameras for about £4 from eBay, shipped from Hong Kong. They typically have around 50~100 dead pixels on a 320x240 array. But they're cheap, so I can tolerate that. Not sure if I'd like it so much with a relatively expensive thermal imaging camera, but it could work as a compromise to achieve low cost.I would guess a significant cost is the (vacuum) packaging and germanium window. The pixels are quite big, and the calibration shutter allows for fixed-pattern correction of some pixel-to-pixel variations, so it may be that yields are already quite high, so I'd be surprised if this would be a major saving.
These guys are way out of their league, both in terms of running a crowd funded campaign, and actually developing a product.
Hello All,
So right now we're tweaking and modifying the board's firmware to make the most stable and consistent platform possible for the release product. What we arire aiming for is the fastest possible startup and warm-up for the wifi network and the imaging sensor respectively, as is possible. This process involves a considerable amount of testing and trials.
We have been in design and manufacturing discussions with several case manufacturers over the last few months, however, we are still willing to consider new providers. To that end, if any of you out there are camera afficianados and have a camera case manufacturer that you really love, please let us know in the comments, and we will look into what they have to offer.
As for the camera body itself, while we continue to work with the hardware, we are using the opportunity to improve the feel of the device. If there are any features that you would like to see, please let us know.
We are quickly approaching the point where we feel we will be able to provide a new release date and look forward to doing so.
Thank you for your continued support,
-Mu
Hello All,
So right now we're tweaking and modifying the board's firmware to make the most stable and consistent platform possible for the release product.
What we arire aiming for is the fastest possible startup and warm-up
for the wifi network and the imaging sensor respectively
To that end, if any of you out there are camera afficianados and have a camera case manufacturer that you really love, please let us know in the comments, and we will look into what they have to offer.
We are quickly approaching the point where we feel we will be able to provide a new release date and look forward to doing so.
We are quickly approaching the point where we feel we will be able to provide a new release date and look forward to doing so.
We have been in design and manufacturing discussions with several case manufacturers over the last few months, however, we are still willing to consider new providers. To that end, if any of you out there are camera afficianados and have a camera case manufacturer that you really love, please let us know in the comments, and we will look into what they have to offer.
QuoteWe have been in design and manufacturing discussions with several case manufacturers over the last few months, however, we are still willing to consider new providers. To that end, if any of you out there are camera afficianados and have a camera case manufacturer that you really love, please let us know in the comments, and we will look into what they have to offer.
I lost track of all the claims. Didn't they once claim they had a manufacturer, and they were expecting to get prototype enclosures any day?
I lost track of all the claims. Didn't they once claim they had a manufacturer, and they were expecting to get prototype enclosures any day?
Hello All,
We've got the portion of the firmware that deals with the wifi all set, the camera starts up and is ready in just over 2 seconds. We're very happy with this startup time, and better yet, we have a very solid and stable throughput on the new board.
A few more tweaks to the portion of the MCU firmware that deals with the ADC and the sensor itself and the firmware should be good to go.
These are major advances and moves us closer to our final goals.
We'll keep you updated.
-Cheers
"The firmware should be good to go"... So that means they have images coming from the sensor right? So why the hell have they not posted any?!? [Don't answer, I already know ;)]
... That is the only way I see to get the sales price down in the $500 range and that would be with 2000 people signing up to take units.That's what Kickstarter is for.... to find out if there's a market
Is there any interest at that price point?
To extract the data I see backend daughter boards being used. You select one when you buy the unit and you can come back and order other ones if you want. Among the list are USB, Wifi, and Bluetooth.USB pretty much comes free with most microcontrollers, and provides your charging connector and a means to update firmware, so I can't see a reason for this not to be the minimum standard interface.
Couple of notes on the IGG Mu Optics project.No surprise - they probably thought it was a competitor trying to sabotage them, or still believe they need no help.
1. Before I did any of the work above I contacted them an offered my help to get their project completed. No one responded AT ALL.
Serial flash costs peanuts these days. Probably plenty of scope for compression & interpolation to save space.
3. If they run non-temp stablized (best for battery operated scenarios), they will need image NUC data for the whole array across whatever ambient operating temperature profile they select. That eats up a lot of flash. I did not see an extern flash memory chip either.
I have attached an image of the modified core as well as an image from the data stream. I left the thermal image in its native resolution. Pictures are great, but video is better so I am going to create a video of the unit streaming this week and post it to our youtube channel. Given our present hardware design, we would have to remove MANY of the parts on our current design and shrink the package down. That is the only way I see to get the sales price down in the $500 range and that would be with 2000 people signing up to take units.
Is there any interest at that price point?
more like this, there is no reason to not at least do some post
"The firmware should be good to go"... So that means they have images coming from the sensor right? So why the hell have they not posted any?!? [Don't answer, I already know ;)]
The chef emerges from the kitchen to address the staving diners who have been waiting 3 hours for their meal, and speaketh...
"Don't worry folks, we have managed to get the texture of the glaze on the dessert fruit cup we're serving for dessert just perfect, you will really enjoy it!"
but the diners just want their damn fish and chips main course!
Hi,
I would be interested to see an image of circuit board to determine the usefulness for electronics. The ability to focus at 4 to 6 inches is required.
Some thing like these images:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/m-thermal-imager-real-or-fake/msg232013/#msg232013 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/m-thermal-imager-real-or-fake/msg232013/#msg232013)
Many thanks !!
Jay_Diddy_B
The accuracy of the image geometry will suffer when compared to the Inframetrics lens
Out of interest, what would be the cost, for example, for 160x120 vs 80x60? Could it be an optional extra without costing too much extra?
Microcontroller as opposed to what? CPLD/FPGA?
Another aspect are peripherals. Just because a micro-controller has a built in USB peripheral doesn't mean it's free. Embedded USB libraries tend to consume at least 25% of the processor resources to implement. A micro-controller is a bad choice for this project in my opinion.
If USB is what is desired, then only the "USB daughter board" will have the USB components.So how are you going to handle charging (assuming you're intending a standalone unit with battery) ?
Microcontroller as opposed to what? CPLD/FPGA?
Another aspect are peripherals. Just because a micro-controller has a built in USB peripheral doesn't mean it's free. Embedded USB libraries tend to consume at least 25% of the processor resources to implement. A micro-controller is a bad choice for this project in my opinion.
Not sure about others but some of the NXP Cortex ARM parts have a lot of the USB stuff in internal ROM.QuoteIf USB is what is desired, then only the "USB daughter board" will have the USB components.So how are you going to handle charging (assuming you're intending a standalone unit with battery) ?
A USB connector isn't going to cost a lot different to any other power connector. Or are you looking at Alkalines ?
Not sure what the USB "stuff" is that you are referencing but you mentioned ROM, which means on boot that code has to load into somewhereThe USB stack. It doesn't have to load anywhere - it runs from ROM.
We use Blackfin DSPs and Microsemi FPGAs here.
Remember 80x60x30fps is only 144kbytes/sec,and 4.8Kpixels, which is well within the capability of <<$5 microcontrollers to handle these days. If you need DSP there are chips like the dsPIC and ST Cortex parts with DSP instructions.
There will be stuff like fixed pattern offset/gain correction and shutter calibration, maybe some linearizing? - I suspect some of this may need cal data from a factory calibration process for each sensor, so it would make sense for the sensor system to integrate all this to provide clean image data.
Optional access to the raw data may be useful/interesting to some people, but that's just a case of bypassing the processing.
Thermalguy - I think a lot of people would be interested to learn what steps are involved in processing the raw data from the bolometer to produce a thermal image, and how complex it is to drive the sensor - what sort of waveforms, voltages are involved etc.
There will be stuff like fixed pattern offset/gain correction and shutter calibration, maybe some linearizing? - I suspect some of this may need cal data from a factory calibration process for each sensor, so it would make sense for the sensor system to integrate all this to provide clean image data.
Optional access to the raw data may be useful/interesting to some people, but that's just a case of bypassing the processing.
Thermalguy - I think a lot of people would be interested to learn what steps are involved in processing the raw data from the bolometer to produce a thermal image, and how complex it is to drive the sensor - what sort of waveforms, voltages are involved etc.
Cal data can be handled with a factory programmed SPI flash (or just on the on board MCU flash, really, how big can it get?) easily IMO, so some means of reading that from USB will be all it takes.
Strictly speaking you don't even need to agonize over the USB implementation, just get a MCU with fast UART, the TI 28335 I use at work tops out at 4.7MBaud and the chip has three of them. Pair that up with say the FT2232 dual ch USB to UART and you got at least 9.4MBaud of throughput at hand.
...
(Keep in mind that at FLIR headquarters, someone is very angry right now.)
My guess is that they don't give a damn :)
My guess is that they don't give a damn :)
They shouldn't.
Anyone could have found out that info by taking them apart. And as Steve said, obvious when you look at the specs.
...
And I would take apart a $2000 thermal camera :wtf: You think I can afford one of those?
But corporations work different. Often it is not about logic and facts. I have often seen managers making a mountain out of a molehill. More than once I had the impression they were doing it to underline their own importance and prove the reason for their existence (while they were just parasites) . And they focused on the particular subject, because it was the only one they thought they understood (but didn't).
Here are some secret details about the FLIR i-series that nobody will EVER tell you without charging you $10,000 for a censored reverse costing report:Considering the moderate volume and limited functi9nality ot seems a bit nuts to use a 3rd-party OS in a product like that. I suppose with their near-monopoly they don't care about a few dollars o Microsoft on every unit.
It runs Windows CE Core5.0. A notoriously easy to hack Windows distro (or so blackhat.com says).
Every single camera in the i-series has a 320x240 detector that is cropped, in software, to either 140x140, 100x100, or 80x80.It is possible that they use reject sensors with defects for the lower-res products, and/or possibly only calibrate them for the resolution they're sold as - I think the latter is fairly plausible if cal takes appreciable time as that equates directly to cost. thermalguy could probably shed some light on this.
Assuming you're a good hacker, you could probably get access to all that 320x240.
Displaying it on that sh!tty LCD screen would be a problem, and the camera also can't record video. But I bet someone could hack up a video output from some stray traces on the PCB.It has an SD card slot....
This raises another question: how much do 320x240 detectors cost FLIR to make? Not much more than 320x240 CCDs cost, but they like jacking up prices.The vacuum encapsulation and germanium window would add quite a lot to the cost, and I believe the die size is substantially bigger than an equivalent optical sensor.
Who says I'm manufacturing anything? Here's the main component list, for anyone interested (mikeselectricstuff, I'm looking at you)All donations welcome :-)
The microbolometer is encapsulated in a hermetic housing consisting of a ceramic substrate HTCC, a metal box and an IR window in silicon. The microbolometers operate under a high vacuum, 10-4mbar, 100 times lower than for a MEMS gyroscope. The final test integrates an expensive four-day leak test to guarantee package tightness.
Good find guys :)I would imagine regs cover (possibly differenty) component parts and finished equipment.
I have wanted to know more about the FLIR microbolometers but my contacts in the industry clam up when asked anything about them....NDA's.
I am surprised about the sensor resolution revelation. I would have thought production cost and failure rate would have been lower on lower resolution sensors which would have been an incentive to make sensors matched to units. Obviously this is not the case.
From my understanding of the DoD restrictions on the technology, it applied to the SENSOR and not the rest of the unit, yet manufacturers consider all technical info to be covered under the restrictions. In either case, the fact that the sensor is a hi res 320x240 type interests me. Unless it is hardware crippled to not operate at 30Hz, I would have expected it to definitely be liable to the ITAR restrictions as a sensor, forgetting whether the rest of the camera electronics are 30Hz or 9Hz. Dual use regulations apply to the harvesting of parts as well.
The FireFLIR probably does. It's 320x240 at I think 30fps, definitely more than 9fps. A KS campaign would attract more publicity, and possible interest from the manufacturer....
I have actually considered the idea of doing a kickstarter to buy something exotic for a teardown, but the ITAR stuff would make me slightly nervous of doing it with this.
Wait, don't those other cameras you disassembled also fall under ITAR? What were their resolutions?
It says "Factory set" - OK it almost certainly is a software setting, but it could also be something like a different FPGA config file, which is for all intents and purposes different hardware. If they wanted to get really serious they could put a fuse on the sensor die that was blown to either limit readout rate (e.g. lowpass filter on analogue out), or be readable by the system software/FPGA to prevent use at higher rates.
From what is said it appears the 9Hz refresh is a software configuration matter and if set can be exported under lesser restrictions than full frame rate units without the 9Hz limitation imposed.
All very odd as any software limitation can often be reversed.
As far as I know, ITAR is a US regulation that covers technology developed in the USA and exported from the USA.They can still affect you though - There are mechanisms which can make it illegal for any US company to deal with you, and many other countries have similar regulations.
So the simplest way to avoid falling under these regulations is to independently develop equivalent functionality outside the borders of the US.
It says "Factory set" - OK it almost certainly is a software setting, but it could also be something like a different FPGA config file, which is for all intents and purposes different hardware. If they wanted to get really serious they could put a fuse on the sensor die that was blown to either limit readout rate (e.g. lowpass filter on analogue out), or be readable by the system software/FPGA to prevent use at higher rates.
From what is said it appears the 9Hz refresh is a software configuration matter and if set can be exported under lesser restrictions than full frame rate units without the 9Hz limitation imposed.
All very odd as any software limitation can often be reversed.
And the US has managed to persuade some countries to roll over like a bunch of pussies to extradite people (e.g. Christopher Tappin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Tappin)).
Probably - I just assumed it was crippleware on a real 320x240 sensorJust spotted one TIC that offers resolution upgrades :
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/thermal-imaging-camera-accessories/7776710/?origin=PSF_437238 (http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/thermal-imaging-camera-accessories/7776710/?origin=PSF_437238)|acc
Are you sure that upgrade isn't just like the Testo one (http://www.testosites.de/export/sites/default/thermalimaging/resources/downloads/Background_article_SuperResolution_EN.pdf (http://www.testosites.de/export/sites/default/thermalimaging/resources/downloads/Background_article_SuperResolution_EN.pdf))? They offer a program where the camera takes two images a few milliseconds apart and fuses them in software to increase resolution. You've got to pay for the program though, and it doesn't look at all applicable to other manufacturers' cameras. I would love to do this with an ix, but the i-series has a terrible capture rate so it's doubtful whether that kind of program is even possible. ttp://www.testosites.de/export/sites/default/thermalimaging/resources/downloads/Background_article_SuperResolution_EN.pdf
Over the last few weeks we've moved into new office space and now have all of our equipment set up again. The team was still able to get a lot of work done during the chaos, even when that meant taking equipment home to work. I'll follow up with more news next week.
Hello All,
Just an update on what we've been working on this week.
As you all know, one of the ways that we are using to reduce the cost of this IR camera is by offloading as much as is possible to the host device (smartphone, tablet, laptop, ect...). This week we've been working on the part of the software that takes the raw thermal data from the sensor and converts it into video. This is anything but simple software, but we are happy to say that so far we have been able to keep the overhead very low. Again our goal with software is to open-source and provide an SDK for nearly everything.
I'll post more this weekend.
A few more tweaks to the portion of the MCU firmware that deals with the ADC and the sensor itself and the firmware should be good to go.
Abe is in the other room right now tweaking bias voltages and the like to get the best picture possible in the field.
Raw data of the sensor. Digital or analog data?
So they shouldn't send raw sensor data to the phone.
The data stream going from the camera to the host device is entirely raw data. That data is processed into video in the Mu App. By doing all of the processing in the app, we can push updates related to video without requiring hardware firmware updates.
With an image resolution at 160×120, that gives us 19,200 pixels in each frame. At 30 fps, that gives us 576000 data points each second. For the best thermal resolution, we are sampling at 12bits. Giving us about 6.9Mbps of output.
Fluke has a professionally looking thermal imager for $750 (http://amzn.com/B00APPPL2W (http://amzn.com/B00APPPL2W)). It is made of higher resolution visible spectrum image super imposed with a low resolution IR image. This is a significant price reduction in this market and so far the reviews are very good.
I don't think Dave owns them, so a tear down would be difficult. Fluke told him that they didn't want a teardown of their thermal cameras
Flir has just released the E4, which has 80x60 resolution (versus 60x60 in the now-obsoleted I3):Fluke has a professionally looking thermal imager for $750 (http://amzn.com/B00APPPL2W (http://amzn.com/B00APPPL2W)). It is made of higher resolution visible spectrum image super imposed with a low resolution IR image. This is a significant price reduction in this market and so far the reviews are very good.
I don't know why, it's hopeless compared to a Flir i3 which is only a hundred or two more. I've compared them, no contest.
Flir has just released the E4, which has 80x60 resolution (versus 60x60 in the now-obsoleted I3):
http://www.tequipment.net/FLIRE4.html?idevd=f1d73e45a4554c07b60e7fe457a66e0b&idevm=5796ba9b89e94fbca82b49e0fe97b42c&idevmid=363816 (http://www.tequipment.net/FLIRE4.html?idevd=f1d73e45a4554c07b60e7fe457a66e0b&idevm=5796ba9b89e94fbca82b49e0fe97b42c&idevmid=363816)
Under a thousand bucks! :-+
Flir has just released the E4, which has 80x60 resolution (versus 60x60 in the now-obsoleted I3):Fluke has a professionally looking thermal imager for $750 (http://amzn.com/B00APPPL2W (http://amzn.com/B00APPPL2W)). It is made of higher resolution visible spectrum image super imposed with a low resolution IR image. This is a significant price reduction in this market and so far the reviews are very good.
I don't know why, it's hopeless compared to a Flir i3 which is only a hundred or two more. I've compared them, no contest.
http://www.tequipment.net/FLIRE4.html?idevd=f1d73e45a4554c07b60e7fe457a66e0b&idevm=5796ba9b89e94fbca82b49e0fe97b42c&idevmid=363816 (http://www.tequipment.net/FLIRE4.html?idevd=f1d73e45a4554c07b60e7fe457a66e0b&idevm=5796ba9b89e94fbca82b49e0fe97b42c&idevmid=363816)
Under a thousand bucks! :-+
I am interested to see FLIR's take on visual and Thermal image merging. There is normally an image registration error but FLIR appear to have sorted that issue.I suspect its only solved over certain distance ranges.
The down side of the stated new E series camera is the low resolution of the base unit. I surmise that the images in the brochures are from the higher resolution models and not the base unit.Would be very interesting if all the E series used the same sensor, like the I series apparently did.
I'm sure Flir could market a cheap camera with just a CVBS or HDMI output and the hobbyist market would lap it up. No LCD, case or anything, just a dev board breakout for one of their sensors with an optional digitisation chipset. $200 list price. I doubt the sensor costs that much -- you're paying for R&D for most of it.They maybe could, but why would they? There wouldn't be any profit in it for them. The sensor quite probably does cost that - vacuum packaging, germanium window & optics, calibration etc.
Fluke have a new product out, the VT-04 not-quite-a-thermal-camera:I read somewhere that these use a mechanical scanner + thermopile sensor - not sure if it's a single sensor or something like the Melexis chip
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1751644.pdf (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1751644.pdf)
"Four times sharper" than the VT-02, apparently, though still no actual resolution figures quoted.
Hello All,
Things are coming along well. The iOS app is nearly complete. Just a few more tweaks to the the image processing and to saving the video. We're working on getting rid of some shakiness and making the auto-scaling of the IR gradients as good as can be. I'm looking forward to the completion of porting the app over to the other operating systems.
Some news from the IR industry this week. FLIR has released a new line of cameras. http://www.flir.com/thermography/americas/us/view/?id=61194 (http://www.flir.com/thermography/americas/us/view/?id=61194)
They seem like solid products, and their low end model with a resolution about a quarter of ours is retailing for under $1000.
We're happy that we'll be able to beat that price by more than half, with a camera with much higher resolution, video and still recording, greater storage capabilities (dependent upon your smartphone or tablet), and WiFi. We also think our form factor allows easier use than the pistol grip.
But we're very happy to see the continuing drop in cost of so many IR products which are now being targeted at the mass market.
We're excited to be getting so close to launching our camera and enabling even more people to utilize thermography.
Cheers!
-MuOptics
Hahaha, now they're telling people where to go to get a cheap thermal camera :P
Curiosity has got the better of me - Flir M4 ordered ;DI am interested to see FLIR's take on visual and Thermal image merging. There is normally an image registration error but FLIR appear to have sorted that issue.I suspect its only solved over certain distance ranges.QuoteThe down side of the stated new E series camera is the low resolution of the base unit. I surmise that the images in the brochures are from the higher resolution models and not the base unit.Would be very interesting if all the E series used the same sensor, like the I series apparently did.
Also may be some scope for tweaking lens distance for close-up use.
Curiosity has got the better of me - Flir M4 ordered ;D
Not destructive (hopefully!) but will definitely be investigating mods for close-up work and investigating potential for resolution & framerate tweaks.Curiosity has got the better of me - Flir M4 ordered ;D
I presume you aren't going to do a destructive teardown...
Flir have mentioned something on twitter about contacting me to get me one.
Not destructive (hopefully!) but will definitely be investigating mods for close-up work and investigating potential for resolution & framerate tweaks.
Might be good if you can get one of the higher-up models to compare - I suspect the higher res ones may have a different lens, even if the other hardware is the same
A close-up lens would be essential for PCB work I suspect.Most camera lenses can be made to work close up by moving them further from the sensor, so that's probably the first thing to investigate. Obviously the visble/thermal combining stuff won't work.
Interesting info all round.The problem is not resoution but close-up focus. Stay tuned on this...
I'm thinking about getting myself a Flir I3 to help with fault finding work. Would it be high enough resolution to help with PCB work?
What I'm thinking of is that it could help find which components are shorting or which areas of a board are "dead" i.e. no current flowing.
Has anyone used Flirs for this and if so what's the lowest model you would recommend?
I will take an 60x80 resolution image of the same chips that appeared in my earlier post. You can then see what sort of image the i3 may produce. As Mike says, the E4 is a different creature as it uses a visible image overlay to provide edge detail that low resolution thermal cameras cannot produce. Very clever. As you will have seen, clos-up focus is achievable for $30 so no biggie there.I think the question is how well 80x60 will work without the overlay. For close-up work, the issue of figuring out what you're looking at may be less as you can wave things around close to the subject to find where you are.
Watch this space.
Fraser
I'm thinking about getting myself a Flir I3 to help with fault finding work. Would it be high enough resolution to help with PCB work?
What I'm thinking of is that it could help find which components are shorting or which areas of a board are "dead" i.e. no current flowing.
Has anyone used Flirs for this and if so what's the lowest model you would recommend?
The greatest challenge will be to buy a TIC at a decent price. You can then add one of these simple auxiliary lenses and start looking at PCB's.
I've been following this topic for awhile and I finally decided to make an account to add my 2 cents to the discussion. What about using IR Transmittable Ink coated on a standard lens?
http://www.teikokuink.com/en/product/techreport/146_tech.html (http://www.teikokuink.com/en/product/techreport/146_tech.html)
I've been following this topic for awhile and I finally decided to make an account to add my 2 cents to the discussion. What about using IR Transmittable Ink coated on a standard lens?That won't work for the same reason that painting a wall with clear varnish will not make it transparent
http://www.teikokuink.com/en/product/techreport/146_tech.html (http://www.teikokuink.com/en/product/techreport/146_tech.html)
E4 review in case anyone missed the other thread.
If your circuit is hitting 155C it probably doesn't matter how much hotter it's actually getting!E4 review in case anyone missed the other thread.
The temperature range of the TIR is however pretty limited on the hot side, as it maxes out at >155 Celcius.
The price in the USA appears significantly cheaper than in the UK. Not sure whether these units could be purchased when visiting the USA and it is unlikely you could purchase one for export without FLIR preventing such.All the UK places I found had exactly the same price, apart from Rapid which was more expensive (unusual for them!) and no stock. Probably too new a product to be seeing discounts yet, especially at the lower end.
If your circuit is hitting 155C it probably doesn't matter how much hotter it's actually getting!E4 review in case anyone missed the other thread.
The temperature range of the TIR is however pretty limited on the hot side, as it maxes out at >155 Celcius.
You just need to identify a commonly available material with attenuating properties at the TIC wavelength. Take a look at the attachment. APL used a combination of an Iris and three sheets of viewgraph plastic sleeve (30% transmissive at LW IR) :)
Do some experimentation with a known heat source (candle) and different attenuator materials. Some Googling should help you find different options.
Look at the section on the camera configuration.
When you see the E4 for $1000 you quickly realise that the Mu is dead, even if it did claim higher resolution.
The company simply cannot compete with the knowledge that FLIR has of the market.
Wasn't it P.T.Barnum who allegedly said:-
...
"Never give a sucker an even break"?
"Never give a sucker an even break"?
No, that was St. Francis of Assisi.
Hello All,
First, we'd like to thank you all for your continued support, and apologize again for the delay in our delivery schedule. I know that those of you with experience in startups and especially hardware projects understand just how common it is for small and unexpected issues to arise that inevitably delay the project. For us, our largest delay yet was not caused by a problem, but rather by the huge amount of support and interest that the camera has generated. As we've proceeded, we've been met with much more enthusiasm from parts vendors worldwide and evaluating those opportunities has taken time. That interest has allowed us to source even better parts than we had originally planned, and has allowed us to produce a camera that is not only professional grade, but also very user-friendly.
Right now, our hardware design is complete, and we are working on our image processing software. This is without a doubt the most repetitive and tedious portion of the project. Constant changes to the imaging filter and Non-Uniformity Correction filter in order to produce a truly high quality image. Looking back through the updates, I realize that I may not have made it clear that we have been getting image data from the sensor for quite some time now, and that now we are only clearing up that raw data and saving it as video.
As soon as we have finished the firmware, we will cut the checks and give the manufacturers the go ahead! We can't wait for everyone to start using the camera.
I'll do my best to continue updating with some interesting content as frequently as possible.
Cheers,
-Charles and MuOptics
For us, our largest delay yet was not caused by a problem, but rather by the huge amount of support and interest that the camera has generated. As we've proceeded, we've been met with much more enthusiasm from parts vendors worldwide and evaluating those opportunities has taken time.yeah, right.
That interest has allowed us to source even better parts than we had originally planned, and has allowed us to produce a camera that is not only professional grade, but also very user-friendly.
Right now, our hardware design is complete, and we are working on our image processing software. This is without a doubt the most repetitive and tedious portion of the project.We don't know what the hell we are doing, so are randomly plonking figures in to see what happens.
Constant changes to the imaging filter and Non-Uniformity Correction filter in order to produce a truly high quality image.But still no actual images - put up or shut up. We've all stopped caring.
Looking back through the updates, I realize that I may not have made it clear that we have been getting image data from the sensor for quite some time now, and that now we are only clearing up that raw data and saving it as video.And yet still no evidence.
As soon as we have finished the firmware, we will cut the checks and give the manufacturers the go ahead! We can't wait for everyone to start using the camera.Has nobody told you ater all this time that you can start production before firmware is finished.
QuoteLooking back through the updates, I realize that I may not have made it clear that we have been getting image data from the sensor for quite some time now, and that now we are only clearing up that raw data and saving it as video.And yet still no evidence.
This just gets worse and worse.
As all developers know....you build the basic MK1 'without frills' version and sell that to the early adopters who just want a capability at low cost. You then build the MKII Deluxe model using profits from the MK1 sales. This is then followed by the ULTRA version that has all the bells and whistles built onto a well proven platform that has all the bugs pulled out of it.
You do not try to build the ULTRA version first and offer it for sale at rock bottom prices to early adopters :palm:
It may be the tinfoil hat on my head, but this is why I feel as if this latest development is just a set up for a project failure update.It read exactly like this.
As for the latest update.....as Dave would say.... I smell bullsh*t !
Then again, we don't want the rantings of an unhappy investor on a 'holy war' , the likes of which we witnessed here in connetion with some weird Solar collectors :scared:
I am not clear as to what consequences Mu may face if they fold. I presume investment in such a project is considred speculation, and so prone to failure.
Fraud would need to be proven so maybe the updates are just an attempt to give the appearance of 'every effort was made to deliver'.
E4 review in case anyone missed the other thread.
Someone may get disturbed as you describe non UK and US mains plugs as part of "...weird, foreign, nonsense,... horrible mains plugs", just as the aussie looking plug is discarded ;)
..."DaveCAD Pirate Edition"...
I think that's just funny, and I would be surprised if Dave was not amused too.
There does seem to be some pictures here: http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs?c=gallery (http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs?c=gallery)
He does say in the voice-over that it's simulated data.
I have a bad feeling that this may all be just an elaborate scam, but I hope I'm wrong!
I've been following this company for a while. I was really looking forward to the release of their product, but I'm also starting to have doubts per the reasons given by other posters. I have a bad feeling that this may all be just an elaborate scam, but I hope I'm wrong!
Curious what makes you feel it has any credibility or had any for the past few months?
When people have invested money (or time, ideas...) in something they tend to rationalise away the signs of failure (there is a name for this effect, but I just can't think of it, sort of a confirmation bias), to cling onto the hope that they have not lost their money/been taken for a ride.Cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance).
It can take quite a lot to get some people to realise that a project has gone bad.
With due respect to you, how can you just be "starting" to have doubts?
When people have invested money (or time, ideas...) in something they tend to rationalise away the signs of failure (there is a name for this effect, but I just can't think of it, sort of a confirmation bias), to cling onto the hope that they have not lost their money/been taken for a ride.Cognitive dissonance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance).
It can take quite a lot to get some people to realise that a project has gone bad.
Edit: Good conman will not only convince you that it was excellent investment, they will double down using escalation of commitment. For example "we ran out of money, but we are 95% of the way, we will deliver if you could only invest additional $XX". Whats additional XX when you already spend 3x XX, right?
Edit: Good conman will not only convince you that it was excellent investment, they will double down using escalation of commitment. For example "we ran out of money, but we are 95% of the way, we will deliver if you could only invest additional $XX". Whats additional XX when you already spend 3x XX, right?
That's how the Nigerian scams work. Contrary to popular belief they don't "clean out" your bank account, they go to extraordinary lengths to convince you that you are only "one step" away from getting a vast amount of money. So you keep piling in the money because you are so committed and they make a very convincing story each time they ask for more money for just this last time ::)
Edit: Good conman will not only convince you that it was excellent investment, they will double down using escalation of commitment. For example "we ran out of money, but we are 95% of the way, we will deliver if you could only invest additional $XX". Whats additional XX when you already spend 3x XX, right?
That's how the Nigerian scams work. Contrary to popular belief they don't "clean out" your bank account, they go to extraordinary lengths to convince you that you are only "one step" away from getting a vast amount of money. So you keep piling in the money because you are so committed and they make a very convincing story each time they ask for more money for just this last time ::)
It's a particularly cruel and horrible crime since it can be devastating not only for the victims, who are often elderly and confused, but also for their families.
My uncle was sucked in by these vultures, and the more his friends and family tried to stop him the more convinced he became that it was them who were conspiring to prevent him from getting his rightful rewards. Having alienated him from his family, they sold his details to other scumbags who drained the rest of his life savings.
Hangings too good for that sort of scumbag yet these sort's of crimes are somehow seen as far less serious (when it comes to sentencing etc.) than murder or armed robbery yet I think it's easily in the same league.Are you a Daily Mail subscriber?
Hangings too good for that sort of scumbag yet these sort's of crimes are somehow seen as far less serious (when it comes to sentencing etc.) than murder or armed robbery yet I think it's easily in the same league.Are you a Daily Mail subscriber?
Perhaps if a vulnerable member of your family had been reduced to penury and paranoid distrust of the people who loved him you might be less sympathetic?Call me old-fashioned, but I still think murder is a bit worse. (Going way off-topic, so I'll end this sub-thread here.)
In response to the Flir E4 teardown linked to a page or so back I'd love to see Mike dig into that more. The startup logs dumped showed some promising stuff about the down-sampling of the higher resolution sensor and "capping" of features in the higher-end models. It was be pretty cool to be able to hack an upgrade into an existing unit. Of course they may not have made that easy to do. I have an i3 though which I recently purchased so even if the E4 was potentially hackable it may not work the same on my unit. Very interesting though.
These Mu guys certainly would never be able to pull off anything near the complexity needed to make this happen; not that they ever realistically could... they are just playing off people not knowing how tough this is and it's quite obvious if people were paying a little attention and not trying to convince themselves otherwise... :)
they are continuing development in the face of substantial negativity
And this:
https://medium.com/p/c00da75ae6ae
Were backers still cling to hope that Mu will actually produce anything.Quotethey are continuing development in the face of substantial negativity
Hmm, when was the last time the backers saw any actual evidence of development? - it was 4 months ago when they showed a development PCB :palm:
Hi,IndieDoDo .. where failed projects go to die. RIP.
It has been 3 weeks since an update from Mu Optics.
I think it is time to move the project to IndieNoGo ;D
Jay_Diddy_B
I think it is time to move the project to IndieNoGo ;D
And given that any substantive progress would be shouted from the highest rooftops, I conclude they are not making any progress.
The time between Mu Optics updates is now measured in months. It has been a month since the last update.
Frankly, they deserve to lose their $200.
Better and more pro hardware, eh?
So, preparing for the eventual "we bit off more than we can chew with the new expensive hardware and now we have lost everything" update, I guess.
Hello all,
It's been a very busy month, but we are excited to say that we are nearly there. We've got a new prototype board which works great, a fantastic final case design (one of the causes of our recent delays), and are finishing up the rest of our partnership and manufacturing deals. Along with this update we will be posting a video rendering of the new case(we haven't received the prototype cases yet or we would be posting pictures).
We know that there has been a lot of frustration with how little we've been able to share with you all, and with the project delays, and we do feel very bad about this. We really do wish we could have included you more in the development process, but in the process of designing the final camera, we have been held under several non-disclosure agreements which have limited how much we can put out in the public
domain.
We would like to thank you all for your patience. While it is common for technology projects to run over schedule, we know how frustrating that can be for early backers. One of our main goals now is finalizing a production and distribution schedule and providing you with a sense of when you'll be receiving your cameras. Over the next few weeks we look forward to giving you more information as we prepare to manufacture and deliver the cameras to our supporters.
Cheers,
The MuOptics Team.
Hello all,
It's been a very busy month, but we are excited to say that we are nearly there. We've got a new prototype board which works great, a fantastic final case design (one of the causes of our recent delays), and are finishing up the rest of our partnership and manufacturing deals. Along with this update we will be posting a video rendering of the new case(we haven't received the prototype cases yet or we would be posting pictures).
We know that there has been a lot of frustration with how little we've been able to share with you all, and with the project delays, and we do feel very bad about this. We really do wish we could have included you more in the development process, but in the process of designing the final camera, we have been held under several non-disclosure agreements which have limited how much we can put out in the public domain.
We would like to thank you all for your patience. While it is common for technology projects to run over schedule, we know how frustrating that can be for early backers. One of our main goals now is finalizing a production and distribution schedule and providing you with a sense of when you'll be receiving your cameras. Over the next few weeks we look forward to giving you more information as we prepare to manufacture and deliver the cameras to our supporters.
Cheers,
The MuOptics Team.
Along with this update we will be posting a video rendering of the new case(we haven't received the prototype cases yet or we would be posting pictures).
Charles McGrath posted an announcement 4 months ago... We have been in design and manufacturing discussions with several case manufacturers over the last few months
Charles McGrath posted an announcement 6 months ago...
Sorry for the delayed update again, it’s been a very busy week here. We received new case models, and have been discussing slight changes now that we’ve actually been able to hold the new models with the new materials.
Charles McGrath posted an announcement 6 months ago...
Sorry for the long silence. It’s been an incredibly busy week. New PCBs, new cases, new equipment.
Charles McGrath posted an announcement 7 months ago... As we work to get the case and body of the imager finalized, we have come up with a few slight modifications to the body that we are currently considering. If those ideas go anywhere, I’ll try to post pictures of the possible changes down the road.
John McGrath posted an announcement 7 months ago...
Machining a final case prototype takes days, not weeks. The engineer in charge of that is also quick and responsive.
We really do wish we could have included you more in the development process, but in the process of designing the final camera, we have been held under several non-disclosure agreements which have limited how much we can put out in the publicNDA's from who exactly ?
So they can be bothered to put out a video rendering of wha tthe case will look like, but no sample thermal pictures, or anything.
And they expect people to believe them how exactly?
I've seen this play out in the gun industry. A company promises a lot for a little and stalls to get people to drop out. There is a magic number that have to drop off before they can go forward without loosing their shirts and they will wait until that number is reached.
The up side is that if/when they deliver I get a tiny thermal unit that I can tuck in my shirt pocket that was dirt cheap.
At this point, do you honestly believe there is any hope that they might deliver anything at any point? I am curious what you have seen that makes you think so? I have seen nothing.
I've seen this play out in the gun industry. A company promises a lot for a little and stalls to get people to drop out. There is a magic number that have to drop off before they can go forward without loosing their shirts and they will wait until that number is reached.
There is no business case to do so. You either sell at a loss, or you make people believe you are a scammy company - NO GAIN either way.
There is no business case to do so. You either sell at a loss, or you make people believe you are a scammy company - NO GAIN either way.
They could also have funding some somewhere else (I think they mentioned trying that early on?), so maybe they just don't give two hoots about the indiegogo money and backers and now have some other agenda and schedule perhaps?
Its possible they are trying to scam some VC company now and keep indiegogo just as a PR facade.
If this turns out to actually be real a couple months from now, I will shit a brick. :-DD
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs?c=gallery (http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs?c=gallery) No hardware, just a 3D rendering. To me it doesn't look deep enough behind the lens :-//
I'm not a backer, and I admit I'm only loosely following the activities of the Mu Imager... but there are plenty of thermal images on the linked page, are they all fakes? ???
I think I might set up a web store selling torches and pitchforks. Send me £35 and I'll send you your very own personalised 'angry mob' kit - as soon as they're ready, of course. First 100 backers get a free pickaxe with their names engraved on the handles.
And this:
https://medium.com/p/c00da75ae6ae
Were backers still cling to hope that Mu will actually produce anything.
From the video:
"The thermal images shown are for illustration purposes only and may not have been taken by the camera series depicted"
Where have we seen that before? :-DD
Next update from Mu?
"Oh, no - the Mu hardware was almost ready, but this announcement from FLIR has ruined everything and all our partners have abandoned us :scared:"
The question now is ....why would ANYONE want a Mu when a FLIR is availabe at similar money ?
But... but... but...The question now is ....why would ANYONE want a Mu when a FLIR is availabe at similar money ?
The one who no longer can get their money back anymore ? ::)
This illustrates one of the problems with crowdfunding
Hello All,
We are planning on a Friday update this week, but we thought we would quickly speak about the FLIR ONE that was just announced yesterday morning at the Consumer Electronics Show(CES) in Las Vegas.
As we believed when we started this project, the advent of thermal imaging for the consumer marketplace was nearly upon us. The FLIR ONE is an iPhone 5 and 5s thermal imaging case attachment. We've been hearing rumors about this device for a couple of months now, and have been looking forward to seeing exactly what they were developing. Our anticipation of this announcement has of course involved both nervousness and excitement. Having a competing product from a company like FLIR is certainly something that we have been nervous about, however the flip-side to this is that a huge name in infrared imaging has just confirmed our belief that there is a huge market for affordable infrared imaging products.
We see that a few of our supporters have noticed FLIR's press release and have posed a few questions. Let me fill you all in with as much as we know. The FLIR ONE works with only the iPhone 5 and 5s. It has a physical connection to the phone and an incorporated visible light camera that is used to clarify the thermal images. The FLIR ONE is an impressive device that utilizes a brand new sensor that is much, much smaller than previous sensors, either from FLIR or their competitors. This sensor core is called the Lepton Core. The FLIR ONE does not yet have a published spatial resolution or frame rate, however we believe it to be somewhere between 50x50 and 80x80 pixels, with a frame rate around 10fps. FLIR ONE is expected to be available sometime in the spring of 2014.
We are four weeks away from final prototypes with our camera. We are scheduled to hand over a number of them to distributors both here and overseas in the middle of February. At that time we believe we'll be very close to mass manufacturing and distribution. We expect to begin mass production at the beginning of April.
When we first began designing what would become our final product, we had a lot of planning to do. Decision such as what phones and devices we should support, how to move data from the camera to the host device, what sort of features will benefit the most use cases, etc. During that planning phase we designed the camera that you all will be receiving. The Mu Optics camera has many features that we believe will allow us to actively compete with the new FLIR camera even as both products prepare to enter the market. The Mu Optics camera utilizes WiFi, allowing the user to separate the camera from the phone or tablet. This means that it is easy to examine the thermal scene in hard to reach places. The Mu camera will be accessible for those who want to program it for their own purposes. Our camera has an active shutter, has a frame rate greater than 30FPS with higher resolution. The Mu camera works with nearly any device and OS, and will continue to work with any new phone that a user purchases.
As a CNET article from yesterday stated, "Let the thermal games begin."
Thank you all for your patience, it's been a much harder device to develop than we first thought, but we are excited to be nearing the finish line.
Cheers,
-Mu Optics
3) They say mass production will start in April. :palm:
This illustrates one of the problems with crowdfunding
Im confused, why do you think its a problem? Its a feature. Clueless will FAIL almost every single time (unless they pay someone to bail them out).
It might be a problem for clueless backers tho.
I was thinking the same thing as well. It'd be hilarious if Mu Optics ends up buying the sensors from FLIR. :PI understand that FLIR have bought at least one sensor manufacturer (ULIS), so it seems likely... Assuming they are actually buying anything from anyone.
Assuming they are actually buying anything from anyone...Aside from holidays in the Bahamas...
Incidentally I wonder how many of the IGG suckers are outside the US - on the outside chace thay ever get to being able to ship anything, and it's 30FPS as they claim, someone will have a lot of export paperwork to deal with.
Let us not forget that revolutionary thermal imaging chip that they claim is NOT new, just used in a clever way..... FLIR have gone with a new engine so I would love to know what Mu have actually been playing with all this time.
At least looks like the competition helps with the price. You can get a Fluke VT02 for about $600 now, no need to wait some more years for an indiegogo project, and you don't need an iPhone either. I remember that some years ago it started with some k$ for devices from FLIR.
Given the advent of Flir E4 that price for the VT02 is one digit too much.Where can you get it for $60? At Amazon the Flir E4 costs $995. And the VT02 costs $449.96 at Amazon, even cheaper than what I found first at eBay. I think I should buy one :)
Incidentally I wonder how many of the IGG suckers are outside the US - on the outside chace thay ever get to being able to ship anything, and it's 30FPS as they claim, someone will have a lot of export paperwork to deal with.
That's what I was thinking. If no other manufacturer can ship greater than 9fps outside the US, how can Mu do it legally? Of course, they almost certainly have nothing to ship anyway, so the whole point is moot.
This whole 'omg ze US reztrictions" is imo whole lot of BS seeing as E4 is manufactured in Hungary?If company has at least some people employed (even if it is just a sales department or support) in the US, then it falls under the restrictions of ITAR.
Given the advent of Flir E4 that price for the VT02 is one digit too much.Where can you get it for $60? At Amazon the Flir E4 costs $995. And the VT02 costs $449.96 at Amazon, even cheaper than what I found first at eBay. I think I should buy one :)
Sooooo... yep, same amount of non-information as normal.
ICYMIQuoteHello All,
We are planning on a Friday update this week, but we thought we would quickly speak about the FLIR ONE that was just announced yesterday morning at the Consumer Electronics Show(CES) in Las Vegas.
As we believed when we started this project, the advent of thermal imaging for the consumer marketplace was nearly upon us. The FLIR ONE is an iPhone 5 and 5s thermal imaging case attachment. We've been hearing rumors about this device for a couple of months now, and have been looking forward to seeing exactly what they were developing. Our anticipation of this announcement has of course involved both nervousness and excitement. Having a competing product from a company like FLIR is certainly something that we have been nervous about, however the flip-side to this is that a huge name in infrared imaging has just confirmed our belief that there is a huge market for affordable infrared imaging products.
We see that a few of our supporters have noticed FLIR's press release and have posed a few questions. Let me fill you all in with as much as we know. The FLIR ONE works with only the iPhone 5 and 5s. It has a physical connection to the phone and an incorporated visible light camera that is used to clarify the thermal images. The FLIR ONE is an impressive device that utilizes a brand new sensor that is much, much smaller than previous sensors, either from FLIR or their competitors. This sensor core is called the Lepton Core. The FLIR ONE does not yet have a published spatial resolution or frame rate, however we believe it to be somewhere between 50x50 and 80x80 pixels, with a frame rate around 10fps. FLIR ONE is expected to be available sometime in the spring of 2014.
We are four weeks away from final prototypes with our camera. We are scheduled to hand over a number of them to distributors both here and overseas in the middle of February. At that time we believe we'll be very close to mass manufacturing and distribution. We expect to begin mass production at the beginning of April.
When we first began designing what would become our final product, we had a lot of planning to do. Decision such as what phones and devices we should support, how to move data from the camera to the host device, what sort of features will benefit the most use cases, etc. During that planning phase we designed the camera that you all will be receiving. The Mu Optics camera has many features that we believe will allow us to actively compete with the new FLIR camera even as both products prepare to enter the market. The Mu Optics camera utilizes WiFi, allowing the user to separate the camera from the phone or tablet. This means that it is easy to examine the thermal scene in hard to reach places. The Mu camera will be accessible for those who want to program it for their own purposes. Our camera has an active shutter, has a frame rate greater than 30FPS with higher resolution. The Mu camera works with nearly any device and OS, and will continue to work with any new phone that a user purchases.
As a CNET article from yesterday stated, "Let the thermal games begin."
Thank you all for your patience, it's been a much harder device to develop than we first thought, but we are excited to be nearing the finish line.
Cheers,
-Mu Optics
[
My company, GTI Predictive technology developed a vibration analyzer, balancer, and alignment on the iPad platform. The MuOptics device would complete our vision to have thermal imaging as well can you or any one help me get in touch with MUOptics? We can help their entry into the predictive/reliability market. We have a software app ready to go.
thoenig2@me.com
Hello all,
My company, GTI Predictive Technology developed a vibration analyzer, balancer, and alignment on the iPad platform. The MuOptics device would complete our vision to have thermal imaging as well. Can you or any one help me get in touch with MUOptics?
If I can only get them to contact me or call me back.
It seems no one has ever been able to get a call or contact back, except for the eventual refund requests being granted.
MUOptics does seem to post updates, but no matter how I try and reach their company, I can not get through. I guess this is why this thread was started. I am already aware of Flir's new device and I rely like it. I was more intrigued with MUOptics versatility of working on multiple devices. If I can only get them to contact me or call me back.
We are four weeks away from final prototypes with our camera. We are scheduled to hand over a number of them to distributors both here and overseas in the middle of February. At that time we believe we'll be very close to mass manufacturing and distribution. We expect to begin mass production at the beginning of April.
Who going to guess what the next update will be?
They will the proceed to ignore any and all feedback.In which case it's about time they get overrun by radioactive hamsters.
My money is on some part shortage, a supplier let them down, a mysterious software bug, or someone caught the flue.
Hey, you can't have 4 sucks of the sav!
Not even an update. :'( :'( :'(
But I just don't understand the lack of updates from these guys :-//You seriously mean that? I am guessing the hamsters escaped the lab, so they are now trying to catch them before they can make a relevant update.
But I just don't understand the lack of updates from these guys :-//Often the simplest explanation is the correct one.
But I also don't want to ask for a refund as it lets them off the hook - I want to see this to the end, even if it has to be from a distance.
But I just don't understand the lack of updates from these guys :-//
That does not compute.Actually, to me the fact they are offering refunds at all is the thing that doesn't compute.
If you want to hook them consider to contact the relevant authorities.Well as I am in Australia, the relevant authorities are not really at my disposal.
But I just don't understand the lack of updates from these guys :-//
That does not compute.Actually, to me the fact they are offering refunds at all is the thing that doesn't compute.
If you want to hook them consider to contact the relevant authorities.Well as I am in Australia, the relevant authorities are not really at my disposal.
If you want to hook them consider to contact the relevant authorities.
If you want to hook them consider to contact the relevant authorities.
Who are the relevant authorities?
If you want to hook them consider to contact the relevant authorities.
Who are the relevant authorities?
This depends on what you think has been done, or not done to you. Depending on that you might think of looking for some who enforce business practice or consumer rights. Or criminal law. Or for some special cases, enforce tax laws.
If you want to hook them consider to contact the relevant authorities.
Who are the relevant authorities?
This depends on what you think has been done, or not done to you. Depending on that you might think of looking for some who enforce business practice or consumer rights. Or criminal law. Or for some special cases, enforce tax laws.
So in other words, you have no idea either!
And seriously, if a backer can't make up his mind of what has happened and how he had his money got departed from him then well, what kind of help do you expect to get? And if you can't even google that in five minutes, but want to be spoon feed, well ...
And seriously, if a backer can't make up his mind of what has happened and how he had his money got departed from him then well, what kind of help do you expect to get? And if you can't even google that in five minutes, but want to be spoon feed, well ...
Non-sequitur. I am quite sure that the Mu people are scammers who took money (not mine) under false pretenses, but I have no idea who the relevant authorities might be, and I don't see how a Google search would help me figure that out. I doubt that the police or DA would take any action. I respectfully submit that you are talking through your hat.
Non-sequitur. I am quite sure that the Mu people are scammers who took money (not mine) under false pretenses, but I have no idea who the relevant authorities might be, and I don't see how a Google search would help me figure that out. I doubt that the police or DA would take any action.
Right, I think they can't be convicted if they tried but failed. But they wrote that they had something working and mass production will start, and if they can't prove it, this might be sufficient to convict them for attempt to defraud.
Let us all not forget that Mu have been providing full refunds upon request. If they stop doing so, there may be an issue, otherwise they are not actually doing anything criminal.
given they have been handing out refunds then you might as well just get your dosh back and go buy something else or you'll just end up throwing more money away
I'm not playing the devils advocate but how is it a scam or fraud if you can get a refund? :-//
If they were genuine wouldn't they have burnt up some of the money getting to the point where they realise "shit this aint gonna work". If this is the case do they have to wear the cost?
I guess they have ran out of budget or will to continue. But they keep refunding money, as somebody said earlier,...
I know things aren't looking good. So it appears that I (and my money) am a lemming to the end! |O
But I just don't understand the lack of updates from these guys :-//
If you still have money in [...]
A discussion point at the beginning of this project was how they would be able to offer a thermal sensor and lens combination at the price point stated.
[...]
With the news of the FLIR ONE Mu may as well pack up their bags and find a new project anyway.
But then, out of the blue, FLIR came up with the FLIR-One thingy. And all of a sudden they _really_ went "away". One has to wonder (not so much, actually) why that is....
I guess they have ran out of budget or will to continue. But they keep refunding money, as somebody said earlier, this is a strage pattern for a scam and a strange pattern for a legit failed project, I mean, one cannot be so naive to continue with this project having so little time and funds, or so insisting when lying or so willing to refund when scamming.
But then, out of the blue, FLIR came up with the FLIR-One thingy. And all of a sudden they _really_ went "away". One has to wonder (not so much, actually) why that is....
I do hope they don't just disappear, it's been a fun ride (for those not invested) watching and wondering how and what type of BS the next update will contain.
To most of the technical audience here it was obvious this project just wasn't going to happen from the get-go, so most have been waiting for the inevitable finale...
If you’re wife was “pregnant” for 3 years, I’m betting you’d probably assume she just got fat and isn’t going to produce a “product”
Same with Mu…
PART 1 of 4
Hello IndieGoGo Supporters,
As technology developers we have the advantage of seeing the fruits of our labor on a day-by-day basis in what has been a protracted journey. This letter is our way of sharing our recent progress with you and also to begin to make amends for our past shortcomings in communications.
It's plain and clear: WE SCREWED UP and underestimated the effort. In this miscalculation, we missed our original deadlines to send you product. Compounding this: we have done a really bad job of keeping you up to date. We are truly sorry and are presently addressing all the open issues.
First
Regarding communications: our updates will become more regular as we now approach the actual release of the product.
Mu Optics has as its mandate: to provide simple and logical thermal imagining technology to the consumer market. We do this not via the traditional approach, but by marrying thermal imaging with smart devices. By leveraging devices that have real processing power and great user interfaces: we are able to lower the price while making its use both very simple and tremendously flexible. As you might expect: in order to do this, we have had to create a whole new approach to the technology.
As with any pioneering effort: early missteps, while disappointing to us all, have shone a light on better paths. Indeed: our imager today is far more robust than when we first embarked on this journey. We have also had had experiences where vendors supplied parts that simply did not live up to our expectations, or were unable to deliver their product in volume. This was both unacceptable and time consuming. As you know, the size of a market is driven by two principle factors: pricing and demand. When the former drops the latter climbs, and it is volume pricing and our belief that this kind of device can have a useful place in every toolbox that makes this product viable in the consumer space.
With these teething pains predominantly behind us we understand that gain comes only with pain and these issues forced us to fundamentally rethink how we provide a superior product at a competitive price. We've made many, many changes including bringing in critical new resource partners who are seasoned tech implementers.
PART 2 of 4
Last year saw the Mu team test multiple sensors and specialty lenses from various manufacturers, design and engineer a good deal of our own unique hardware; architect, write and re-write the software; experiment with dozens of attachment mechanisms as well as design a lens and shutter assembly which has taken considerable cost out of the camera, while at the same time adding functionality. The team’s newest partner, our Industrial Design/ Mechanical Engineering lead is a perfect complement to the original team’s brilliant physics effort. He has brought to market a myriad of high-technology and consumer products. We are very close to the finish line.
While we have made missteps, we apologize, but more importantly we are also now being held to higher standards internally. You'll see that going forward. We'll update, at the least, every few weeks.
Here are some recent highlights:
Last month, after adopting and re-engineering the core electronics to take advantage of a terrific new sensor: We achieved “First Heat” with this new sensor using our production electronics. On achieving this milestone: we are greatly pleased to announce that our research stage for this product has come to a close and the actual product development is quickly proceeding. It now appears we're on track to deliver cameras later this spring as we previously posted.
The smartphone software has been nearly complete for some time now, and we are presently verifying the histographic content of images from the production electronics to move the system engineering into the “completed” category. Because of the nature of the mobile marketplace: it's our goal to ship our imager as both iPhone and Android ready.
PART 3 of 4
Initial cameras are being manufactured using what is called “bridge tooling” which is in-process now. Once we receive first production articles of the electronics and the internal and housing parts, an initial run of “first article” imagers will be built and form our “Alpha” production samples, which will be purposed at field testing, evaluation and outside review. Because these initial units are actually produced via a production process virtually identical to the final production process (not prototyping): we expect the Alpha testing process to proceed rapidly. This essential process will permit us to make any final adjustments to the housing elements, our firmware and of course our applications. This testing and evaluation process will also allow us to begin to share with you the impressions of the camera from people outside of our company.
It is of significant note that after considerable winnowing we've selected our extended production team. As the various custom components begin to roll off their respective production lines, our production team is as excited about our camera as are we.
Our Infrared camera may be small: but our goals are very big. Because Mu Optics understands the importance of scaling this product beyond the limits of our walls: our final assembly partner is an extremely capable domestic electronics contract manufacturer with deep experience in manufacturing highly technical products on a substantially automated line. Also of importance to our team is the issue of corporate citizenship: Mu Optics has leveraged the extremely talented but often maligned American manufacturing base. Please understand that this was a more difficult step for us to take than to simply push the “offshore” (Easy) button, and it required a longer research schedule simply because the US model is that of “many specialist vendors” rather than “one jack-of-all-trades monolith”. We strongly believe this will be of strategic benefit to Mu Optics as well as our customers in the future.
PART 4 of 4
Our contract manufacturer, located just outside Chicago, after populating the electronics will be focusing, calibrating and testing products using automated fixtures of our design prior to ultrasonic sealing of the product into its housing.
At that point, the camera with the Instruction Manual, calibration report and accessories will be boxed and palletized by the same contract manufacturer, then sent to our logistics partner for shipment to customers.
As great as our technology is, there is no sensor on earth that can fully measure our appreciation for everyone’s support on this project, and we believe you will love what you see.
Warmest regards,
The entire MuOptics team
We are truly sorry and are presently addressing all the open issues.
Regarding communications: our updates will become more regular as we now approach the actual release of the product.
As with any pioneering effort: early missteps, while disappointing to us all, have shone a light on better paths. Indeed: our imager today is far more robust than when we first embarked on this journey.
With these teething pains predominantly behind us we understand that gain comes only with pain and these issues forced us to fundamentally rethink how we provide a superior product at a competitive price. We've made many, many changes including bringing in critical new resource partners who are seasoned tech implementers.
Last year saw the Mu team test multiple sensors and specialty lenses from various manufacturers, design and engineer a good deal of our own unique hardware; architect, write and re-write the software; experiment with dozens of attachment mechanisms as well as design a lens and shutter assembly which has taken considerable cost out of the camera, while at the same time adding functionality.
The team’s newest partner, our Industrial Design/ Mechanical Engineering lead is a perfect complement to the original team’s brilliant physics effort. He has brought to market a myriad of high-technology and consumer products. We are very close to the finish line.
While we have made missteps, we apologize, but more importantly we are also now being held to higher standards internally. You'll see that going forward. We'll update, at the least, every few weeks.
Here are some recent highlights:
Last month, after adopting and re-engineering the core electronics to take advantage of a terrific new sensor:
We achieved “First Heat” with this new sensor using our production electronics.
On achieving this milestone: we are greatly pleased to announce that our research stage for this product has come to a close and the actual product development is quickly proceeding. It now appears we're on track to deliver cameras later this spring as we previously posted.
The smartphone software has been nearly complete for some time now, and we are presently verifying the histographic content of images from the production electronics
Initial cameras are being manufactured using what is called “bridge tooling” which is in-process now. Once we receive first production articles of the electronics and the internal and housing parts, an initial run of “first article” imagers will be built and form our “Alpha” production samples, which will be purposed at field testing, evaluation and outside review. Because these initial units are actually produced via a production process virtually identical to the final production process (not prototyping): we expect the Alpha testing process to proceed rapidly.
This essential process will permit us to make any final adjustments to the housing elements, our firmware and of course our applications. This testing and evaluation process will also allow us to begin to share with you the impressions of the camera from people outside of our company.
Our contract manufacturer, located just outside Chicago, after populating the electronics will be focusing, calibrating and testing products using automated fixtures of our design prior to ultrasonic sealing of the product into its housing.
At that point, the camera with the Instruction Manual, calibration report and accessories will be boxed and palletized by the same contract manufacturer, then sent to our logistics partner for shipment to customers.
As great as our technology is, there is no sensor on earth that can fully measure our appreciation for everyone’s support on this project, and we believe you will love what you see.
As technology developersYou are not developers you're a bunch of amateurs
we have the advantage of seeing the fruits of our labor on a day-by-day basis in what has been a protracted journey.Pity nobody else has, which is why nobody believes a word you say.
we have done a really bad job of keeping you up to date. We are truly sorry and are presently addressing all the open issues.Until we see evidence of a real product and real images, you are not addressing any issues, just making yourselves look more stupid, if that is even possible
Quality, not quantity. An image or two is worth a million pages of your bullshit "updates"
Regarding communications: our updates will become more regular
Mu Optics has as its mandate: to provide simple and logical thermal imagining technolog"Logical".... what exactly does that mean?
As with any pioneering effort: early missteps, while disappointing to us all, have shone a light on better paths. Indeed: our imager today is far more robust than when we first embarked on this journey."Robust"? Working would be a start
We've made many, many changes including bringing in critical new resource partners who are seasoned tech implementers.Who would that be? And how long did it take them to stop laughing?
Last month, after adopting and re-engineering the core electronics to take advantage of a terrific new sensor: We achieved “First Heat” with this new sensor using our production electronics...and still no images. We just don't believe a word you say any more
The very fact that you think that would be "easy" just reinforces how completely clueless you are
Please understand that this was a more difficult step for us to take than to simply push the “offshore” (Easy) button,
and it required a longer research schedule simply because the US model is that of “many specialist vendors” rather than “one jack-of-all-trades monolith”. We strongly believe this will be of strategic benefit to Mu Optics as well as our customers in the future.My buzzwoord-bulshittometer just hit 11 :bullshit:
As great as our technology is, there is no sensor on earth that can fully measure our appreciation for everyone’s support on this project, and we believe you will love what you see.There is no sensor on earth that can measure the infinitessimaly small levels of your remaining credibility
There is no sensor on earth that can measure the infinitessimaly small levels of your remaining credibility
We should do a contest.
"Write the next Mu update and win an Mu Thermal Imager".
I predict that Flir One will be on general sale before we see even a picture if real hardware from MuOpticsWell of course, but that's rather easy. ;) Neverevereverever eeeevah versus regular release according to Flir's roadmap and developed by people with a clue.
What baffles me most are the people who respond to these updates with comments like "Thanks for the update, glad to hear you are not compromising quality for speed" and such. I wonder if it's some form of Stockholm syndrome at play with people lapping up the smallest dribble of information as an unnecessary kindness from Mu?
They just found an exciting new source of thermal sensors and need to redesign from scratch... starting with a new prototype of the user interface (or other such irrelevant aspect).
Last month, after adopting and re-engineering the core electronics to take advantage of a terrific new sensor...
...will permit us to make any final adjustments to the housing elements, our firmware and of course our applications.
<= suckerDemand with your credit card company. I ordered a Butterfly Labs coin miner, and that's how I got my money back.
I bought into it. I figured they had a line on some new Chinese solid state IR imager on the cheap. And well...Flir One proved that I was probably right.
Regardless...I know my money is down the drain. Yes, I demanded a refund. No I didn't get it.
I still receive those idiotic status updates. We all know that you can display various aspects of development while still retaining intellectual property secrecy. But so what? If that device were actually real and shipped, it would be torn apart in about 24 hours and dissected by a pro (probably right here). The "secret" wouldn't be much of a secret before long.
Only an idiot wouldn't know that. Or a con man.
<= sucker
I bought into it. I figured they had a line on some new Chinese solid state IR imager on the cheap. And well...Flir One proved that I was probably right.
Regardless...I know my money is down the drain. Yes, I demanded a refund. No I didn't get it.
I still receive those idiotic status updates. We all know that you can display various aspects of development while still retaining intellectual property secrecy. But so what? If that device were actually real and shipped, it would be torn apart in about 24 hours and dissected by a pro (probably right here). The "secret" wouldn't be much of a secret before long.
Only an idiot wouldn't know that. Or a con man.
I still don't know what the end game is. They could have stopped posting ages ago and just kept the money. But nope... they keep posting. Really not sure what to make of it, it's quite fascinating, must feel bad for the backers though.at this point it seems the end game is same as moller flying car, minus actual almost working prototype
FLIR makes their own sensors...They have also bought at least one sensor manufacturer (ULIS)
so I don't think the existence of the FLIR One proves any Chinese manufacturer brought a cheap sensor to market. I am not sure if FLIR will sell their sensors in bulk to companies like Mu, but even if they did, I believe the claimed resolution by Mu would mean they were using a higher end sensor than the bottom of the line FLIR.FYI the Flir Lepton sensor used in the Flir One is currently priced at $250 with a MOQ of 1000. Of course I'm sure this can get a lot lower with sufficient volume.
<= sucker
I bought into it. I figured they had a line on some new Chinese solid state IR imager on the cheap. And well...Flir One proved that I was probably right.
Regardless...I know my money is down the drain. Yes, I demanded a refund. No I didn't get it.
I still receive those idiotic status updates. We all know that you can display various aspects of development while still retaining intellectual property secrecy. But so what? If that device were actually real and shipped, it would be torn apart in about 24 hours and dissected by a pro (probably right here). The "secret" wouldn't be much of a secret before long.
Only an idiot wouldn't know that. Or a con man.
We achieved “First Heat” with this new sensor using our production electronics.We got a sensor, hooked it up and it burned up.
Last time I checked a 160x140 60Hz model from Dali sells for about $1600, if that's the lowest the chinese got at this stage in their development you know Mu's price is impossible.
I would dearly love to see the original concept paper that lead to Mu starting this project. I have not excluded the possibility that they actually thought that a broad spectrum IR sensitive CCD sensor would function as a cheap thermal image sensor.....they do, if the target temperature is above 400 degrees Celcius ;DI wonder if there was something along the line of:
The innovative use of a sensor that was stated as already being generally available caught my interest. This infrerred that the sensor technology was already available for us to see, yet Mu would not disclose any details. I was considering whether they were using a cheap pyrometer such as used in PIR sensors or IR thermometers combined with a scanning assembly.
Sensor -
We are using a 160×120 Microbolometer for infrared sensing. I’m sure most of you know what these sensors are, but here is the down and dirty wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbolometer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microbolometer)
Hello everyone,
We wanted to thank you for your contributions and continued support in our effort to get a great product out to you as soon as possible! Attached is a personal message from John.
(Apologies for the time it took to get this video to you. There have been hiccups with our Vimeo Plus account. For some reason or another Vimeo has not been processing our videos in a timely manner!)
Is the E4 still hackable, or did they plug that hole?AFAIK:
yeah it looks like IGG or Mu removed the history before that point. I probably have a bunch more in mt email, but I'd still be missing the first few, as I contributed fairly late.
yeah it looks like IGG or Mu removed the history before that point. I probably have a bunch more in mt email, but I'd still be missing the first few, as I contributed fairly late.
If anyone has the original updates then it would be wise to post them here for the record. This whole being able to delete updates thing is just horrible. It's the only thing these poor backers have as a record of anything.
I absolutely love how they say NOTHING about the microbolometer status in ANY of there posts.Who says it's a microbolometer? It's an exciting new sensor that they are very excited about!
Hello everyone,
We wanted to thank you for your contributions and continued support in our effort to get a great product out to you as soon as possible! Attached is a personal message from John.
(Apologies for the time it took to get this video to you. There have been hiccups with our Vimeo Plus account. For some reason or another Vimeo has not been processing our videos in a timely manner!)
Thanks to all of you for your comments. I fully understand the concerns you’ve voiced; I can say is that product development progresses, we are adapting and adjusting the technology daily, a working camera will be unveiled in early May, and you will see working videos of our camera well in advance of that. We’ve now chosen not to post work-in-progress videos until such time as we’re showing thermal images on the iPhone, which is coming soon.
That said, let me share a significant change in the operational aspect of the camera. We’re replacing the USB connection (other than to charge the battery) with a Wi-Fi connection. This is a major advance in operational practicality and convenience. The camera will be far easier to use without the encumbrance of a tethering cord.
Our expertise lies in technical product development, not in marketing communications. Please bear with us and be patient; this highly useful tool is mere weeks from its unveiling.
Page 1 of 2:
Hello All,
I see that our update regarding WiFi has raised some concern. Please let me address that and talk a little about how we are going to implement that functionality.
Firstly, I’d like to assuage any fears that we are only now working on WiFi. We have been developing that feature for some time now, and it has been working great. We believe wireless connectivity is a huge step up from USB. The software team has video coming in over the air and it is working flawlessly. When we started this project we were a little concerned about the power usage over WiFi, but as it turns out it really isn’t bad at all. Getting video in over the wireless connection and processing it is only taking up a small amount of CPU usage on the iPhones that we have been developing with.(I’ll see about compiling some stats and averages soon)
As for how WiFi will work: The Imager acts as a wireless access point, so you won’t need to be near your home WiFi or any other hot spot. So the imager can be used anywhere without difficulty. You’ll simply connect to your camera’s individual network and you have video. This process will be slightly different depending on the device you are using to connect to your camera, but our software will be released with clear instructions built in. This type of adhoc networking is what we believe will work best for everyone. WiFi Direct would have been great, but that standard hasn’t been adopted by a vast majority of device manufacturers yet so we decided to go with adhoc instead, as any device with WiFi will work with that methodology.
Page 2 of 2:
We agree, Bluetooth would be great, but at 19,200 pixels, coming in 30 times each second, we found that it just wouldn’t cut it in the vast majority of cases.
For those of you who still prefer USB, we haven’t completely cut it out. We are still using USB to charge the camera’s on-board battery, we wanted to see how many people prefer the hard connection over WiFi because we can still include the circuitry for the wired connection if there is great demand for that. Otherwise we will remove it and only leave the power management components in place. So if you really want the USB connection, give us a friendly “+1USB” in the comments.
Let’s see, what else is there?
FCC certification; because of the WiFi chip we selected, that’ll take less than two weeks once we’ve gotten our final Printed Circuit Boards in.
Final PCBs; Thermal imaging is tricky, and we want to get it right for every camera we build, so we keep testing and redesigning and perfecting, I think that we’re nearly there though.
We have a great team of developers and engineers here, and we are still confident in our expected delivery schedule. Not to say that there isn’t the potential for set backs between now and the end of May, but we haven’t had any reason to think we won’t make our expected goals.
I wish that we could share more with you, but we have to be very careful about what data we put out in the world before we hit scaled up production. Thank you all for your patience. We very much appreciate your support and your help.
Cheers,
Charles
Hello all, thanks for all the continuing support and the input on the USB question! It remains an open question and we’re listening. I wanted to post our MFi License for those that had questions about whether we had one. We applied for one pretty much at the same time the idea came up. Enjoy the day!
Our thoughts and prayers are with those in Boston.
Part 1 of 2
Hello all,
I’ll address a few things in this email and hopefully have another update again before the end of the week.
We’ve been watching the comments for +1USB, and so far we’ve counted just over 150 comments on that subject (out of 1920 contributors), with 72% asking for USB support, 21% for both, 6% for WiFi only, and 1% doesn’t care (just get it done).
We like WiFi for it’s nearly universal support and lack of cables; and it’s very cool taking the camera into places without the phone, but we certainly do understand that a physical line is sometimes best, and it looks like many of you have uses in mind where that is the case, some of which are very, very interesting. When we made the decision to switch to Wifi it removed a few headaches related to USB support across multiple platforms. We have a few meetings later this week to discuss this and what our final approach (approaches?) will be. For those of you who need USB we really are paying attention, because you were all early supporters we want to have a workable solution for each of you. (I really wish that Bluetooth was a viable option. Oh well, we work with what we can right?).
Part 2 of 2
There is some talk in the comments about us not being on the roster for the Hardware show. This is true, we pulled off of the show floor because we realized that it would be more economical for us to meet with the big buyers privately rather than show the imager on the convention floor. We’re associated with people who can get the right people into the suite with us and they believe the booth to be more of distraction than anything else. So…we’re still aimed at showing the camera there. We also did this for competitive and confidendiatilty reasons.
Let me take a minute to talk in general terms about development status. We started this project knowing that thermography could be such a useful tool for so many more people than currently use it. And so we knew that an affordable thermal camera would be huge. We set off doing our research, noting where the big expenses were, and coming up with dozens of different ideas. Some of these ideas were genuinely very clever, although most ultimately didn’t pan out. In the end, we have a great plan and we’re nearing the finish line to a great camera. We’ve mentioned that we’ve experimented with a few different detectors. Well, we’re very happy with the one we’ve settled with. Abe is in the other room right now tweaking bias voltages and the like to get the best picture possible in the field. Turns out it’s just as hard to make the picture look great as it is just to get a picture in the first place. We’ve got a new case about to be machined (hopefully with proper and final mounts and clips). The next PCB we order should pretty much be the one that goes into the first cameras we ship…baring any big changes. I’m off to poke around the Internet for a new battery because I’m just not satisfied with the pack that we’ve been working with so far. I imagine that you all would be happy with as many milliamp hours as you can get, right?
Late in the month of May still seems good. The longest lead-time we have on any part is a few weeks and suppliers are at the ready.
We’re making steady progress, a video is coming very soon. We’re working late into the evenings and weekends. You’ll be very happy with what you see.
Cheers
8th April, 2013:QuoteThanks to all of you for your comments. I fully understand the concerns you’ve voiced; I can say is that product development progresses, we are adapting and adjusting the technology daily, a working camera will be unveiled in early May, and you will see working videos of our camera well in advance of that. We’ve now chosen not to post work-in-progress videos until such time as we’re showing thermal images on the iPhone, which is coming soon.
That said, let me share a significant change in the operational aspect of the camera. We’re replacing the USB connection (other than to charge the battery) with a Wi-Fi connection. This is a major advance in operational practicality and convenience. The camera will be far easier to use without the encumbrance of a tethering cord.
Our expertise lies in technical product development, not in marketing communications. Please bear with us and be patient; this highly useful tool is mere weeks from its unveiling.
8th April, 2013:QuoteThanks to all of you for your comments. I fully understand the concerns you’ve voiced; I can say is that product development progresses, we are adapting and adjusting the technology daily, a working camera will be unveiled in early May, and you will see working videos of our camera well in advance of that. We’ve now chosen not to post work-in-progress videos until such time as we’re showing thermal images on the iPhone, which is coming soon.
That said, let me share a significant change in the operational aspect of the camera. We’re replacing the USB connection (other than to charge the battery) with a Wi-Fi connection. This is a major advance in operational practicality and convenience. The camera will be far easier to use without the encumbrance of a tethering cord.
Our expertise lies in technical product development, not in marketing communications. Please bear with us and be patient; this highly useful tool is mere weeks from its unveiling.
Wow, almost a full year ago :palm:
:clap:
I still remember one of the first updates "Thanks to everyone contributing, I cant wait to drive my new tesla electric car" -John McGrath :-DD And yes, it actually said something like that. I'm really surprised that was removed, wonder why? :palm:
Again, the question that keeps nagging me...why do they keep playing this game? Why the updates? Why not just call it quits?
I'm not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but it looks like Mµ has been beaten by yet another similar product:Doubt this will be anywhere near mu's price target - my guess would be at least the price of an E4
http://therm-app.com/ (http://therm-app.com/)
I don't see any pricing, but decent resolution (384x288)
I'm not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but it looks like Mµ has been beaten by yet another similar product:At least they have actual technical specifications...
http://therm-app.com/ (http://therm-app.com/)
I don't see any pricing, but decent resolution (384x288)
I'm not sure if anyone has posted this yet, but it looks like Mµ has been beaten by yet another similar product:Doubt this will be anywhere near mu's price target - my guess would be at least the price of an E4
http://therm-app.com/ (http://therm-app.com/)
I don't see any pricing, but decent resolution (384x288)
Hello everyone,
Things are progressing. Working out the kinks and finalizing some processes. We met again late last week with our final assembler to review the steps as we ready for production. There are many parts that they'll order and have at the ready, simply because they do so much work that requires these simple parts that they get them at a much lower price than we could. It is an amazing spectacle to watch Pick and Place machines work at the speed they do. That said, some of the work required to build the camera is specialized to the point that we're working with the assembly company to customize, automate and speed some of the processes, such as the lens focus.
We've had a little hiccup with the shutter supplier as that damn little piece of etched metal is being made and processed in three different states, Michigan, Oregon and California before being shipped to us in Illinois. We know that sounds stupid, but cost and quality actually play out better for us this way. Sometimes, things just make no sense, until they do.
We continue to interview to fill staff positions that will be required as we come to market. Thank heavens there are companies that specialize in logistics.
So you know, in reply to some of the comments, everyone who has requested a refund has received it, except for the handful of people from whom we're waiting on PayPal info. To the rest of you who've held out and been patient with us, we appreciate it and are rushing as fast as we can.
Cheers,
MuOptics
Hamsters ate our hard drives, so, well, you're screwed. By the way, my new Tesla is delightul
Another update.
If the part about hiring another employee is true, then they certainly have some other poor suckers money to keep this whole fiasco afloat.
Once again they claim to be so close to some form of production or pre-production, yet still not a single thermal image, nor any acknowledgement that they will ever release one.
I'm simply stunned at how many times they can regurgitate the same waffle.
Rethink Studioshttps://www.facebook.com/rethinkstudios (https://www.facebook.com/rethinkstudios)
Lovely day in the West Loop! Come on by for a drink if you're in the area! — at Rethink Studios.
I thought it could be a mistake, maybe they are afraid of angry customers? Plausible deniability... "Ah yes we get that alot our CEO is not the same guy as Mu Optics John McGrath" Rethink studios has John C McGrath.
Note the way the company spells their name on this sign:
Note the way the company spells their name on this sign:
Makes sense, as their design is almost entirely new according to them, using a Nu sensor ;D
Something tells me that these folks aren't terribly concerned about violating any trademarks.
I find the whole thing fascinating. I can't imagine what Mu's endgame is.
I find the whole thing fascinating. I can't imagine what Mu's endgame is.
Why won't there be anymore updates? I haven't seen that from their updates.I find the whole thing fascinating. I can't imagine what Mu's endgame is.
You alreade have seen the end game. There wont be any more updates.
Well, maybe one if someone decideds to sue them - they are a VFX agency doing commercials, they can always claim it was a publicity stunt/viral marketing campain.
they are a VFX agency doing commercials, they can always claim it was a publicity stunt/viral marketing campain.
they are a VFX agency doing commercials, they can always claim it was a publicity stunt/viral marketing campain.
That excuse would never fly... marketing campaigns don't bilk people of over a quarter of a million dollars.
Hey guys, just wanted to let you know about the latest in my manufacturing scheme. See, in order to get one sensor for development without paying $1000, I had to sell my soul to Satan. But hey, the one remaining person that forgot about the project and didn't ask for a refund will be getting his thermal camera! (In a few (mu)months, just need to get the case 3D printer working in this heat. Lucifer, it sure is hot down here.) Keep on Mu(oo)ing
The team has begun to pull images from the pre-production boards and are presently in calibration and refinement mode, prior to entering initial production.
We have also ordered the internal plastic injection and metal tooling and have actually received critical first article parts, which have tested with flying colors.
The housing tools will be kicked-off in the next week or so and we anticipate first article parts within 30 days, upon which we will begin alpha production.
The iOS and Android apps are finished and tested as well.
Looking at the size of connectors,in particular what looks like a power connector and single pole DIP switch next to it at the far corner, and the aluminium lump, I suspect that board might actually be a sensor manufacturer's devboard.
Some idle speculation...
Looking at the Mu Image, assuming the header is 0.1" pitch then I make the device to be about 75mmx45mm and about 30mm thick maybe.
This infrared camera from Avio has somewhat compatible looking dimensions, lens placement, and an outward appearance that looks about what I'd expect.
I suspect that board might actually be a sensor manufacturer's devboard.
Phone image appears to be simulated, or the ceiling must be incredibly cold for the camera to see the background as pitch black with no noise.
Holy crap batman, who expected to see some actual hardware? :o
Maybe they are having real problems with trying to do the processing on phone side like they have claimed before? And the picture is in fact taken from the camera, but it's nowhere near what a real thermal image should be like with real processing. Now they have just hacked it together and made it do _something_ so now they can start the real work. :-//
Kickstarters,
During the last several months, we hit unforeseen design, cost and production delays in our business. Although we were able to complete and begin shipping product, we do not have the financial resources to continue functioning as a company without additional investment. We have spent the last two weeks in domestic manufacturing while simultaneously trying to raise additional capital.
While we are looking at these options and to maintain the viability of the company, we have made the gut-wrenching decision to hibernate many of the functions of our current business, including manufacturing, marketing and sales. This means that we’ve had to lay off some of our employees. As a result, you may already have experienced delays and disruption to some of our communication. We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused.
In addition, we aware of some issues with the initial encryption sequence, fingerprint authentication, pairing and power. We want to ship you the best product possible and we are working on RMAs, fixing issues and iterating new builds of the firmware. We ask that you please be patient with us as we work on all of these things simultaneously.
Our plan to is to continue on our development path while we raise additional funding to bring the company back to full operation. I will keep you posted as we have updates. I realize that this has been a very bumpy journey but I remain committed to getting the business back on track and fulfilling the commitment to our backers.
Best,
Benjamin Chen, CEO
myIDkey
I suppose they are using that large aluminium lump around the lens to stabilize the temperature around the sensor and lens? I recall seeing something similar on mike tearing down his Flir E4. Last picture they had https://images.indiegogo.com/medias/922071/pictures/full/20130710142155-photo-2.JPG?1373491459 (https://images.indiegogo.com/medias/922071/pictures/full/20130710142155-photo-2.JPG?1373491459) showed some maybe 3d printed plastic holder, I guess they were having problems with that? That is why they havent been able to post any pictures.
So that puts us back to "tweaking bias levels" ... wasn't that something like 40 updates ago ?
Dear Guy who said contacting indiegogo won’t do a thing. They said if there is nothing new until May 24th, they will start legal action.Is this what prompted the update?
I doubt there is anything remotely "off the shelf" about any thermal imager devboard - likely to be very rare beasts as TIC sensor manufacturers won't talk to small outfits, and will be under NDA.I suspect that board might actually be a sensor manufacturer's devboard.
I doubt it. It seems to use the same Redpine(?) wifi module as the older board, so appears to be some sort of revision to that board.
Also, I suspect someone would have found it by now if it was just a off-the-shelf dev board.
I was having a good day after the iFind suspension
bump
this thread reminds me when i started watching the TV series Lost
you keep coming back and find there are still no answers and it's really starting to drag on
Interesting the FLIR still haven't released the ONE yet or communicated recently (the last email from FLIR was on 31st Jan).An update from their CEO in June said it's expected late July, as reported here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-one-any-news/msg471321/#msg471321).
I spent over 3 hours google image searching for something similar to the 'prototype' from the update some time ago (the one with the heatsinky-thingy around the lens) and haven't found anything, but then again, there are literally millions of photos of PCB on the net so...To me the heatsink looks like they got something custom for their pcb. Maybe some local shop with a cnc machine did it from mu thermal drawings. If you want to prove something try calling the shops around that do that kind of stuff near where mu thermal people are located?
IMO the picture is indeed shopped, with the original looking maybe something like picture attached. Maybe even the phone is shopped in (as implied by the B-W modified picture earlier in the thread.
Or the whole thing is just a steaming pile of turd. :DI spent over 3 hours google image searching for something similar to the 'prototype' from the update some time ago (the one with the heatsinky-thingy around the lens) and haven't found anything, but then again, there are literally millions of photos of PCB on the net so...To me the heatsink looks like they got something custom for their pcb. Maybe some local shop with a cnc machine did it from mu thermal drawings. If you want to prove something try calling the shops around that do that kind of stuff near where mu thermal people are located?
IMO the picture is indeed shopped, with the original looking maybe something like picture attached. Maybe even the phone is shopped in (as implied by the B-W modified picture earlier in the thread.
They most likely just had huge issues with thermal noise with their sensor with that 3d printed thermal lens holder. So they just decided to oversize the heatsink. Or maybe the heatsink has same mass and is intended to simulate their final case which should be made from aluminium? I find that to be the most logical conclusion.
I note the comments regarding Mu and FLIR
I spent over 3 hours google image searching for something similar to the 'prototype' from the update some time ago (the one with the heatsinky-thingy around the lens) and haven't found anything, but then again, there are literally millions of photos of PCB on the net so...To me the heatsink looks like they got something custom for their pcb. Maybe some local shop with a cnc machine did it from mu thermal drawings. If you want to prove something try calling the shops around that do that kind of stuff near where mu thermal people are located?
IMO the picture is indeed shopped, with the original looking maybe something like picture attached. Maybe even the phone is shopped in (as implied by the B-W modified picture earlier in the thread.
They most likely just had huge issues with thermal noise with their sensor with that 3d printed thermal lens holder. So they just decided to oversize the heatsink. Or maybe the heatsink has same mass and is intended to simulate their final case which should be made from aluminium? I find that to be the most logical conclusion.
I spent over 3 hours google image searching for something similar to the 'prototype' from the update some time ago (the one with the heatsinky-thingy around the lens) and haven't found anything, but then again, there are literally millions of photos of PCB on the net so...
I don't actually think there IS a board. That's why I searched all over the net - to find what is the thing in the picture they used. I think they just found a picture of something electronic (what might resemble a thermal imager) and shopped the screenshot (or maybe the phone altogether) into it.
Thanks for that link - I didn't see it before.Interesting the FLIR still haven't released the ONE yet or communicated recently (the last email from FLIR was on 31st Jan).An update from their CEO in June said it's expected late July, as reported here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/flir-one-any-news/msg471321/#msg471321).
I spent over 3 hours google image searching for something similar to the 'prototype' from the update some time ago (the one with the heatsinky-thingy around the lens) and haven't found anything, but then again, there are literally millions of photos of PCB on the net so...
You may try the Google image search function. At least that should help you to narrow down the images to look at.
http://www.google.com/insidesearch/features/images/searchbyimage.html (http://www.google.com/insidesearch/features/images/searchbyimage.html)
Greetings,
Chris
I don't actually think there IS a board. That's why I searched all over the net - to find what is the thing in the picture they used. I think they just found a picture of something electronic (what might resemble a thermal imager) and shopped the screenshot (or maybe the phone altogether) into it.
Whether or not it's actually their board or an off-the-shelf demo board, all evidence points toward it being a legit thermal sensor board.
But in either case it is clear it is a prototype/demo board and not any form of production or pre-production board as they are implying.
The original board they showed certainly appeared to have the components they mentioned at the time, i.e. a redpine wifi module, and an Atmel SAM processor.
So they have been playing with something, but they still can't show a single image is beyond me.
So, this project is dead, right?Well, the dog ran away while it still had the chance. Sadly the pony died and got skunked in that other open source related thread. :'(
No more dog and pony show for us? :(
Charging them with? Conspiracy to commit fraud?You could probably charge them with conspiracy to commit disingenuous douchebaggery, but that's about it.
Charging them with? Conspiracy to commit fraud?
Charging them with? Conspiracy to commit fraud?
As long as they tried (probably no matter how superficial), and didn't lie in their updates, there is nothing illegal about being grossly incompetent.
Charging them with? Conspiracy to commit fraud?
As long as they tried (probably no matter how superficial), and didn't lie in their updates, there is nothing illegal about being grossly incompetent.
I am no lawyer (thankfully!) but I think they could be likely successfully sued under "negligent fraud" - meaning if you make statements that you either know to be false, or (more importantly) should have known to be false... you're liable.
A good lawyer would be able to dissect their original pitch and all the claims and statements they made that encouraged people to invest because they were going to make this happen, and show that they were in over their heads and failed to communicate that at the beginning or as they realized it going forward.
The bigger problem would be that they got $280k... but it's 1.5 years since they got that money. It would be easy for a single person to burn through $280k on a development project like this inclusive of that person's salary... but with multiple people on the project? I bet the money is all gone and there's nothing left for people to recover, even if they won a lawsuit.
I am no lawyer (thankfully!) but I think they could be likely successfully sued under "negligent fraud" - meaning if you make statements that you either know to be false, or (more importantly) should have known to be false... you're liable.
A good lawyer would be able to dissect their original pitch and all the claims and statements they made that encouraged people to invest because they were going to make this happen, and show that they were in over their heads and failed to communicate that at the beginning or as they realized it going forward.
The bigger problem would be that they got $280k... but it's 1.5 years since they got that money. It would be easy for a single person to burn through $280k on a development project like this inclusive of that person's salary... but with multiple people on the project? I bet the money is all gone and there's nothing left for people to recover, even if they won a lawsuit.
If they committed fraud, can't you go after their personal assets? Also, I think a lawyer would go after IGG on this one... there must have been quite a few people who notified them it was a fraud, and they clearly failed to enforce their own rules.
Charging them with? Conspiracy to commit fraud?
As long as they tried (probably no matter how superficial), and didn't lie in their updates, there is nothing illegal about being grossly incompetent.
I am absolutely shocked that no lawyers have gone after IGG or KS. Maybe they have... it would seem to be ripe for scams and abuse. There are multiple IGG projects (and KS ones) that just flopped. And KS/IGG are well funded multi-million dollar companies. It would be a fat payday for an attorney with experience in class action suits.
But ultimately it's not IGG who have anything to do with delivery of this project. So I'd imagine it kind of hard to sue IGG to get back money for a project that is not their responsibility to deliver.
IGG did their job of facilitating the transaction, and apparently (if the comments are correct) did pressure Mu into releasing a recent update.
So ultimately I can't see how IGG could could get touched for cases like this.
they had a duty to investigate
Another issue is that if a substantial number of people notified IGG that the project was fraudulent, they had a duty to investigate, disclaimer or no disclaimer. It's not legal to turn a blind eye to fraud (cf. Madoff case).
Another issue is that if a substantial number of people notified IGG that the project was fraudulent, they had a duty to investigate, disclaimer or no disclaimer. It's not legal to turn a blind eye to fraud (cf. Madoff case).
And just how would they investigate for that?
Mu just has to say "sorry, NDA", we'll release info when we are good and ready, and that's that. Nothing short of a court order would legally obligate Mu to release any info, and without the info, you have no evidence, and without any real evidence you have to take their word for it.
Just because a few people out of thousands might scream "fraud" or whatever does not make it so.
Not to mention, how many complaints would they get on a daily bases across all their projects?
HemaImager seems like the real thing, i bet that after a week after it comes out there will already be chinese clones flooding the market.No there won't - if the Chinese could make cheap thermal imagers they would be selling them already.
Lots of ways. They could request images from the prototype.
They could request proof that all questions from backers were answered, or that all refunds were issued.
They could set a deadline for posting an update.
Or they could just put the burden on Mu: prove that you are not fraudulent.
I'm not sure about that, it depends on the details of the contract. However, continuing with the hypothetical, if IGG had reason to suspect fraud, and Mu did not refute it, it would be IGG's duty to at least pull the project page and refund their commissions.
What if it came out in discovery that 100 people had written to IGG saying it was fraudulent? As I said, they would have had a duty to investigate.
Uni-T makes devices comparable to the Fluke VT-02 for a similar price to the VT-02, now the price of the VT-02 has dropped below $500. They say the Mu will be $325, and it does less, as it relies on a phone for the UI. That puts in it in the ballpark of what Uni-T can do today, so I would say the Chinese will definitely be making devices priced like the Mu the day after it launches. :-)HemaImager seems like the real thing, i bet that after a week after it comes out there will already be chinese clones flooding the market.No there won't - if the Chinese could make cheap thermal imagers they would be selling them already.
VT-02 is ISTR 15x15 resolution - more a glorified Ir camera than a thermal imager.Uni-T makes devices comparable to the Fluke VT-02 for a similar price to the VT-02, now the price of the VT-02 has dropped below $500. They say the Mu will be $325, and it does less, as it relies on a phone for the UI. That puts in it in the ballpark of what Uni-T can do today, so I would say the Chinese will definitely be making devices priced like the Mu the day after it launches. :-)HemaImager seems like the real thing, i bet that after a week after it comes out there will already be chinese clones flooding the market.No there won't - if the Chinese could make cheap thermal imagers they would be selling them already.
<Dave contradicts everything I said>
I knew the VT-02 wasn't very high resolution, but I didn't realise it was that low. There is no mention of actual resolution in the spec. The cheapest Uni-T is 60x80 pixels, which is more respectable.VT-02 is ISTR 15x15 resolution - more a glorified Ir camera than a thermal imager.Uni-T makes devices comparable to the Fluke VT-02 for a similar price to the VT-02, now the price of the VT-02 has dropped below $500. They say the Mu will be $325, and it does less, as it relies on a phone for the UI. That puts in it in the ballpark of what Uni-T can do today, so I would say the Chinese will definitely be making devices priced like the Mu the day after it launches. :-)HemaImager seems like the real thing, i bet that after a week after it comes out there will already be chinese clones flooding the market.No there won't - if the Chinese could make cheap thermal imagers they would be selling them already.
Mu isn't ever going to happen so waste of time talking about it.
There are very few manufacturers of the sensors and optics - if a cheap decent-resolution sensor existed, it would be in products now.
Flir Lepton and the Heinmann thermopile are the only contenders at the moment that actually exist.
there may be more in the works, and we'll see them in products just as soon as they become available
IGG had actual 'we will check for frauds' clause in their terms of service, they removed it after Pando started covering Haelbo scam.
I think we got lost in the details, but the big picture of what I was trying to say was that someone suing Mu for fraud would be able to involve IGG, because IGG profited from the fraud.
I knew the VT-02 wasn't very high resolution, but I didn't realise it was that low. There is no mention of actual resolution in the spec. The cheapest Uni-T is 60x80 pixels, which is more respectable.
At least it is better than an IR thermometer, which samples just one point, so you don't miss the hot spots. Example: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/diy-bitcoin-miner-for-avalon-a3255-q48-chips/msg388811/#msg388811 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/diy-bitcoin-miner-for-avalon-a3255-q48-chips/msg388811/#msg388811)I knew the VT-02 wasn't very high resolution, but I didn't realise it was that low. There is no mention of actual resolution in the spec. The cheapest Uni-T is 60x80 pixels, which is more respectable.
Yes, the Fluke VT-02 absolutely horrendous as thermal imaging camera, bordering on useless, I've used tried it. That's why they call it a "visual thermometer"
I think we got lost in the details, but the big picture of what I was trying to say was that someone suing Mu for fraud would be able to involve IGG, because IGG profited from the fraud.
Of course any case could involve IGG. But until such time as someone does sue, IGG don't have to do squat, and they know it.
I suspect IGG are not entirely stupid, they would have lawyers advising them on this stuff in general. And in the case of Mu, hey, Mu are giving refunds, that's a pretty darn good defense for IGG I suspect. How could IGG be reasonably expected to suspect there is any fraud happening in any campaign when a company gives refunds when requested?
A question was asked earlier regarding the expensive parts of a thermal camera. Traditionally it was Optics, Imaging sensor and the Mechanical Stirling Cooler (where required). The expensive diamond turned Germanium optics have been replaced by moulded Chalcogenide glass optics in budget cameras and this has enabled lower retail prices. Such lens materials are used in the FLIR Ex series and VT-02 as well as many other sub $5000 cameras.It wasn't just the production of the germanium lens which cost a fortune years ago. The material itself did. That cost may have come down with regulations demanding more efficient filtering of coal power station chimneys. I assume they recover a lot more germanium now.
Historically it was not unusual for the Germanium lens of a thermal camera to cost several thousands, or tens of thousands, of Dollars depending upon complexity and lens element sizes !
ld say the Chinese will definitely be making devices priced like the Mu the day after it launches. :-)
hello all, would you like to join a group like yourselves pursuing a lawsuit against John? I have 82 prospective joiners. we may also have a pro bono law firm as john has money and we would like to have it as he looks to be a liar and a cheat.
If you are interested in joining us email me at johnhdavis AT gmail DOT com
we are also looking into a criminal charge for him and his, defrauding all of us
Someone in the comments section claims to have a 82 people interested in a lawsuit:Quotehello all, would you like to join a group like yourselves pursuing a lawsuit against John? I have 82 prospective joiners. we may also have a pro bono law firm as john has money and we would like to have it as he looks to be a liar and a cheat.
If you are interested in joining us email me at johnhdavis AT gmail DOT com
we are also looking into a criminal charge for him and his, defrauding all of us
And someone figured out where the money might really went: http://sqipptheline.com/ (http://sqipptheline.com/)
For info, the VT02 uses a British designed and manufactured 31x31 pixel IRISYS Redeye Pyro-electric detector array. In the VT02 the resolution is hobbled to 15x15 where as the full resolution is available on the VT04.That's interesting. Is there a firmware hack to enable the full resolution?
AFAIK all requested refunds were issued in due course. This helps Mu's case greatly in IGG's eyes I'm sure.
AFAIK all requested refunds were issued in due course. This helps Mu's case greatly in IGG's eyes I'm sure.
Really? I have sent emails to marcus@muoptics.com twice, and have yet to receive a reply. Could you tell me how others were able to obtain a refund?
Hello Everyone,
Two weeks from today we'll have the first public showing of the camera at an event where we expect to receive significant feedback and publicity. Shortly after that weeklong event, we'll be working towards announcing our production schedule.
Thank you all for your patience.
John McGrath
Two weeks from today we'll have the first public showing of the camera at an event where we expect to receive significant feedback and publicity. Shortly after that weeklong event, we'll be working towards announcing our production schedule.
Amazing (coincidence?). I bombarded all of the members of their team with complaints about the lack of updates and requests for a refund a few hours ago. If they do finally ship, I hope it's not another disaster like Kreyos.
Either way, it's the usual grease the wheels when the backers get too irate in public. I'm not going to hold my breath, but it should make for an interesting 2 weeks, with what I suspect will be an anti-climactic end.
Two weeks from today
we'll have the first public showing of the camera at an event
where we expect to receive significant feedback and publicity.
Shortly after that weeklong event,
we'll be working towards announcing our production schedule.
Quotewhere we expect to receive significant feedback and publicity.
Feedback = an opportunity to go back to the drawing board.
Come on give them a chance, it takes time to cram a Flir One's guts into their casework!
Either way, it's the usual grease the wheels when the backers get too irate in public. I'm not going to hold my breath, but it should make for an interesting 2 weeks, with what I suspect will be an anti-climactic end.
If they have nothing then they are just digging their hole further. So I suspect they have something, but as has always been the case, it's far production ready.
Even the update says it all:QuoteTwo weeks from today
Buys us another two weeks.Quotewe'll have the first public showing of the camera at an event
Which we won't name, so it obviously can't be that public.
And of course we can't show you anything before then, and possibly after either.
And still after a year and half, and two weeks away from a public demo, they still haven't shown a single thermal image ::)There was a thermal image in the next to last update 3 moths ago:
And still after a year and half, and two weeks away from a public demo, they still haven't shown a single thermal image ::)There was a thermal image in the next to last update 3 moths ago:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs#activity (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs#activity)
There was a thermal image in the next to last update 3 moths ago:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs#activity (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs#activity)
Hey guys!
Even though I didn't back them, they totally sent me a pre-production unit to review! I'm under an NDA, so don't expect any pictures of the HW, but check out the picture I took!
Just don't check the EXIF - NDA, you know!
Quite ironic, shooting a penguin with a Windows device :DYep, thankfully no Windows logo is actually visible!
There was a thermal image in the next to last update 3 moths ago:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs#activity (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/mu-thermal-camera-a-great-tool-to-save-on-energy-costs#activity)
Think I might make that my profile pic...
I never understood why would they need to cram expensive and bug ridden flawed OS in there, when they could do much better with free, versatile an LIGHTER one, like embedded linux, or maybe a dedicated RTOS like VXworks...If it is Windows CE, then it is not so bad. Unlike the standard Linux kernel, Windows CE is a real-time system with a deterministic interrupt latency.
Possibly another micro$oft background deal.
The 80x60 thermal cameras will not seriously impact on the 320x240 resolution thermal camera values as the difference in image produced is significant.Huh?
It is very sad that John has turned out to be total nightmare for backers, but in my Office we would describe him as a 'NEWARK' (rearrange the letters to reveal an appropriate term !)
Have you seen Mike's Flir One video? There is very little 'electronics' in it. The sensor appears to use a standard phone camera socket. I would not be surprised if it is pin compatible.And their MSRP price of $400 is even a bit higher than what the Flir One costs ($350, see here (http://gizmodo.com/flir-one-camera-review-yep-predator-vision-for-your-i-1614296200)). If they buy it in bulk, they could probably just sell it as their product and make some profit :-DD
Have you seen Mike's Flir One video?
Have you seen Mike's Flir One video?
Nope, where is it?
It is very sad that John has turned out to be total nightmare for backers, but in my Office we would describe him as a 'NEWARK' (rearrange the letters to reveal an appropriate term !)It took me a few seconds to realise you weren't talking about Farnell's 'other' brand..
A problem is that as resolution increases, the cost of the lens needed to make use of it also rises. The lens in the Lepton is only about 3mm dia - I don't know if it's germanium or chalcogenide, but either way there's not much of it.
Being at a show and having production ready prototypes for public to play with are two different things.
Have you seen Mike's Flir One video? There is very little 'electronics' in it. The sensor appears to use a standard phone camera socket. I would not be surprised if it is pin compatible.
I just have to ask--Yes, and no.
Mike, was that YOUR iPhone? Are you in the apple herd?
I just have to ask--Yes but bought (Ebay as faulty) specifically to run the F1, non activated PAYG SIM in it - don't even know if it works as a phone
Mike, was that YOUR iPhone? Are you in the apple herd?
I just have to ask--Yes but bought (Ebay as faulty) specifically to run the F1, non activated PAYG SIM in it - don't even know if it works as a phone
Mike, was that YOUR iPhone? Are you in the apple herd?
:phew:
Today is the day?
I will be at IMTS in Chicago Tuesday through Thursday. If I see Mu at any booth, I will certainly post pictures and an account. If this is the convention John is hinting at (and assuming it isn't a bluff), Mu won't be a standalone booth. Someone else will be showing it as part of their "toolset." Any guesses?
Here is the exhibitor search:
http://www.imts.com/visitor/exdir/ (http://www.imts.com/visitor/exdir/)
Hello Everyone,
Yesterday we began showing the camera at the International Machine Tool Show here in Chicago. While it may not be the most obvious place for us to first show the camera; it's here in our backyard, the show gets 100,000 attendees, and we were invited by a generous host to show within their booth. Today one of our Contributors came across us and hopefully he'll post his reaction and the couple of photos he took. As to images off the camera, we'll get some posted here in the next couple of days, it's a show packed with interesting opportunities for impressive thermal images. While we show the camera throughout the weeklong event, the continuing effort to finalize our production process and define a delivery schedule goes on. More to follow this week.
Thank you for the continuing support.
John McGrath
I'm at IMTS... Rather, back at the hotel. I found John McGrath with an actual working prototype. He's with a vendor that analyzes spindle vibration. The name escapes me, but it's on my phone (which is recharging. To prove it, John took a picture of me in the viewfinder of the camera with my iphone. I'll write up more later after I go eat dinner. Interestingly enough, he's a heck of a nice guy and didn't elude my questions. Lots more details to come. Feel free to ask me questions and I'll try to remember what he said.
What you want to see:
http://imgur.com/a/9Tk4d (http://imgur.com/a/9Tk4d)
He's claiming the imager is new technology that is derived from defense tech developed in these last several years of war to go on tips of missiles and whatnot. As those wars wound down, he says these industries want to make money off their new low cost microbolometers.
He's claiming the imager is new technology that is derived from defense tech developed in these last several years of war to go on tips of missiles and whatnot. As those wars wound down, he says these industries want to make money off their new low cost microbolometers.
The live update is long. Perhaps 5 seconds. He's saying EMC issues. Who knows? John actually took this pic for me and its odd he didn't wait for it to update. That's why I'm going back for the video.
In response to a previous question, he didn't have a PCB to show anyone. I have no clue what's inside.
The live update is long. Perhaps 5 seconds. He's saying EMC issues. Who knows? John actually took this pic for me and its odd he didn't wait for it to update. That's why I'm going back for the video.
In response to a previous question, he didn't have a PCB to show anyone. I have no clue what's inside.
Delay could also be due to processing a visible image to simulate a thermal one. [not saying that is the case, but given the deceptions so far, I wouldn't put it past them] If you can bring a glass camera filter [UV0 would be good] and place it in-front of the thermal lens. If the camera is still showing a thermal image for what is behind then what is being displayed is a simulated image.
Obscuring is only visible after change to blend mode. So only normal camera is blocked.
And why would you overlay a banner with the show name across the image?
>There is a large distance between the phone's lens, and the Mu lens, however the visible and IR images seem to be very closely aligned.
This is easy to do. A friend brought in the iphone thing made by FLIR this week and the IR image sensor is in the middle of the phone back and the regular iphone camera i
Honestly, seeing this thing it looks VERY VERY similar to the FLIR ONE iphone5 device I played with this week.
John gave me the feeling that he would deliver a camera at a clearly cheaper price than the FLIR ONE.I think he's probably the only one that believes that.
Some better quality photos of the housing would be handy it they are available, 4 months ago they said :-
"We have also ordered the internal plastic injection and metal tooling and have actually received critical first article parts, which have tested with flying colors.
The housing tools will be kicked-off in the next week or so and we anticipate first article parts within 30 days, upon which we will begin alpha production."
Yet the case in the video's looks pretty shonky, maybe 3D printed but it's hard to tell.
Would be relatively easy to make a working but clunky prototype with the amount of money they pulled in but still don't see how they will meet the price point with the promised specs. by any stretch of the imagination UNLESS they are now trying to embark on sort of weird ponzi scheme.
Martin.
When asked what people could expect to see from Mu, John shared that there will be six thermal cameras on display in the booth
I suspect it was just opportunity - local(?), right timimg, and, probably mostly, knowing ( persuaing that having mu there would attract attention) an exhibitor they could piggyback onto
This seems like such a weird place to do the first public showing.
so wow, they've almost done what mike could do in a few daysNot quite - I can't do iphone apps! ;D
so wow, they've almost done what mike could do in a few daysNot quite - I can't do iphone apps! ;D
so wow, they've almost done what mike could do in a few daysNot quite - I can't do iphone apps! ;D
Yes, but you do know where to hire the required skillset, and as well know how to give them a very detailed set of design requirements, along with a very good level of exactly how the code must respond, and how robust it has to be. I would guess you couls do a decent camera if you could get a supply of the cores for a good price. "The MikeCam" the world's smallest and easiest to use thermal imager. Sounds good!
As far as I recall Mike had actually been producing a thermal imager in the past, a sort of a ceiling mounted people tracking low-res one, isn't that true?Sort of...
These sensors are to be found in UK shops such as TESCO's, M&S, Sainsbury's etc. The shops use them as customer baehaviour monitoring and for check-out queue management.Actually Sainsbury's (at least my local one) use a far simpler approach to queue management - before starting a new customer session, the screen asks the operator how many people are in the queue!
That was the IRISYS people counter that Mike cleverly re-purposed with a custom interface so that it was capable of far more than the OEM intended. IRISYS are a UK company that decided to make its own thermal detector FPA's to meet its needs.
They released thermal cameras that used a IPAQ PPC as its display and processing. The People counter used IIRC a 16 x 16 matrix pyroelectrric detector array. It was able to track movement within its field of view and analyse the target as valid or invalid.
Don't - the camera ones are total rubbish.That was the IRISYS people counter that Mike cleverly re-purposed with a custom interface so that it was capable of far more than the OEM intended. IRISYS are a UK company that decided to make its own thermal detector FPA's to meet its needs.
Oh! I thought it was completely Mike's work, but I stand corrected.They released thermal cameras that used a IPAQ PPC as its display and processing. The People counter used IIRC a 16 x 16 matrix pyroelectrric detector array. It was able to track movement within its field of view and analyse the target as valid or invalid.
I was actually thinking about getting one of these (either a people counter or the iPaq one), as they go for a little over free on eBay, but the resolution is a joke for a thermal cam...
Don't - the camera ones are total rubbish.That was the IRISYS people counter that Mike cleverly re-purposed with a custom interface so that it was capable of far more than the OEM intended. IRISYS are a UK company that decided to make its own thermal detector FPA's to meet its needs.
Oh! I thought it was completely Mike's work, but I stand corrected.They released thermal cameras that used a IPAQ PPC as its display and processing. The People counter used IIRC a 16 x 16 matrix pyroelectrric detector array. It was able to track movement within its field of view and analyse the target as valid or invalid.
I was actually thinking about getting one of these (either a people counter or the iPaq one), as they go for a little over free on eBay, but the resolution is a joke for a thermal cam...
The people counters aren't really useable as cameras as they have no shutter so only respond to changes - any static image will fade out over 5-10 seconds. They work brilliantly at what they are designed for, but not much use for anything else.
Hello everyone.
Saturday evening marked the end of the International Machine Tool Show here in Chicago. While it might not seem to be the most natural place to debut the camera; we decided to show there as a developmental partner to GTI Spindle; who were already showing their wireless Predictive Maintenance hardware/software. We did not put out any press releases about our attendance because it wasn't our
place to do that, we were the guests of another company. They were a generous host and we are extremely thankful for their support.
At the end of the show, I believe I speak for everyone involved when I say that the convention was a solid showing for the camera. Everyone who saw it was a bit in awe of it's capabilities, simplicity of operation, overall quality, and price.
I've attached a few more simple images for your perusal.
Thanks to everyone for your support and especially to those who stopped by the booth at the show and expressed such enthusiasm for the camera they saw.
More news to follow in the next couple of weeks.
Thanks,
John McGrath
And we have pictures!!
And we have pictures!!
So how long did that take since they said showing a thermal image was their #1 priority? :palm:
And we have pictures!!
girlfriend's hairdryer nozzle gets rather hot
Quotegirlfriend's hairdryer nozzle gets rather hot
Don't forget that the Mu measurement range is severely limited (the primary reason I dropped out and got a refund early on). Can't recall the actual figure, but I think body temperature is very close indeed to the top end.
Quotegirlfriend's hairdryer nozzle gets rather hot
Don't forget that the Mu measurement range is severely limited (the primary reason I dropped out and got a refund early on). Can't recall the actual figure, but I think body temperature is very close indeed to the top end.
So the nozzle should be saturated off-scale high, right?
So the nozzle should be saturated off-scale high, right?
After the show I don't think there is any doubt they have something that appears to work.QuoteSo the nozzle should be saturated off-scale high, right?
I would expect any over-temperature to display at the highest value.
Looking again at the photo now, I am not convinced it is a fake. We are seeing the temperature of the nozzle, not the air or the element. Depending on design the nozzle could be quite cool, and it might be quite reflective. I don't actually see anything wrong with that part of the photo - things are not always as you think they should be, and that's when you can see the original for real.
still potentially a very long way from delivering
After the show I don't think there is any doubt they have something that appears to work.QuoteSo the nozzle should be saturated off-scale high, right?
I would expect any over-temperature to display at the highest value.
Looking again at the photo now, I am not convinced it is a fake. We are seeing the temperature of the nozzle, not the air or the element. Depending on design the nozzle could be quite cool, and it might be quite reflective. I don't actually see anything wrong with that part of the photo - things are not always as you think they should be, and that's when you can see the original for real.
However that is still potentially a very long way from delivering the the 320x240 30fps imager for $300 they were promising.
Still filed under "nothing to see here" for the forseeable future.
After the show I don't think there is any doubt they have something that appears to work.QuoteSo the nozzle should be saturated off-scale high, right?
I would expect any over-temperature to display at the highest value.
Looking again at the photo now, I am not convinced it is a fake. We are seeing the temperature of the nozzle, not the air or the element. Depending on design the nozzle could be quite cool, and it might be quite reflective. I don't actually see anything wrong with that part of the photo - things are not always as you think they should be, and that's when you can see the original for real.
However that is still potentially a very long way from delivering the the 320x240 30fps imager for $300 they were promising.
Still filed under "nothing to see here" for the forseeable future.
Maybe I was mis-remembering what they were claiming through all the BS - same argument applies to 160x120 though. I don't believe any sensor+lens currently exists that can be incorporated in a unit selling for $300After the show I don't think there is any doubt they have something that appears to work.QuoteSo the nozzle should be saturated off-scale high, right?
I would expect any over-temperature to display at the highest value.
Looking again at the photo now, I am not convinced it is a fake. We are seeing the temperature of the nozzle, not the air or the element. Depending on design the nozzle could be quite cool, and it might be quite reflective. I don't actually see anything wrong with that part of the photo - things are not always as you think they should be, and that's when you can see the original for real.
However that is still potentially a very long way from delivering the the 320x240 30fps imager for $300 they were promising.
Still filed under "nothing to see here" for the forseeable future.
Mike,
I am confused. When you say "a very long way from delivering the the 320x240 30fps imager " are you still talking about Mu Optics ? I have been following this IDGG campaign with great scepticism and and been amused by all the various comments by the backers on IDGG since it was first mentioned on this forum . It's a great source of entertainment. But even with all their various BS, I still don't ever recall them quoting 320x240. In the original story they say 160 x 120 ?
very long way from delivering the the 320x240 30fps imager for $300Do we really need 30fps in those things?
No we don't and the export regs issue means it would be even more of a pain to manufacture and sell.very long way from delivering the the 320x240 30fps imager for $300Do we really need 30fps in those things?
30fps would probably also be hard to sustain over a wireless connection, especially bluetooth320x240 is 76800 pixels -2 bytes per pixel (16bits) gives 150KB, so at 30fps about 4.4MB/s if we want raw data, while any non loosing compression attempts on this thermal imager device will require extra complexity and compression processing power losses unless we have chip cappable of doing such things implemented and accelerated in hardware.
Have they talked about sensor resolution recently?Have they (Mµ) talked about sensor calibration between each image using bultin black body? ::)
Thank you for placing your order. Your order number is 64X
Just ordered mine (Android)QuoteThank you for placing your order. Your order number is 64X
Surprised is not in the thousands by now
Surprised is not in the thousands by now
I spoke with John last week by calling the phone number on the rethinkstudios.tv website, offering my assitance to make this project successful. John told me he learned a lot about the manufacturing process, project ups & downs and that the project cannot move forward without another significant cash injection (detector manufacture requirement). Since I really wanted an update, you might as well, here is his number:
Moderator removed contact details
I spoke with John last week by calling the phone number on the rethinkstudios.tv website, offering my assitance to make this project successful. John told me he learned a lot about the manufacturing process, project ups & downs and that the project cannot move forward without another significant cash injection (detector manufacture requirement). Since I really wanted an update, you might as well, here is his number:
Moderator removed contact details
If true [not surprising if it is], I wonder how long until Mu makes an official statement.
It was a train wreck from the start but then this may be the case with many start-up projects, as clever 'ideas' people do not always have the smarts to run a business. Take Sir Clive Sinclair as an example. Very clever man, but could do better in his business decisions.
It was a train wreck from the start but then this may be the case with many start-up projects, as clever 'ideas' people do not always have the smarts to run a business. Take Sir Clive Sinclair as an example. Very clever man, but could do better in his business decisions.
At least Clive shipped product!
Hello everyone,
Our apologies for the silence of late. Most of you have heard about Seek Thermal's entry into the market. Needless to say, it's quite the game changer. We've been working towards a response to this new market reality.
The arrival into the market of a camera with higher resolution than the sensors available to us and a sell price well below our cost of goods, with thirty million in the bank as a result of a patent settlement with FLIR and backed by companies such as Raytheon and Freescale Semiconductor has left us very challenged in bringing our camera to market. While it is true that Mu Optics has a number of residual advantages; with WiFi and transferring all the thermal data with the stills and videos being the main ones: it is still a Herculean task for us to get to market given this well-funded competitor.
Regretfully, just as our camera was ready for production, we're now finding it impossible to obtain financing for production. Financing for production has effectively vaporized as venture capital looks at the new competitive landscape and question wether we can be profitable and competitive. I understand their concerns; despite all recent efforts to redesign the camera utilizing more cost effective components (the most difficult item has been in further in reducing our costs has been the microbolometer), we still can't get our cost to manufacture a camera below $210. At that cost we believe that we would be competitive with FLIR's offerings. However, with mark-up, we're well above the retail cost of Seek Thermal's camera. Their strategy; that of minimal feature-set/ minimal cost/ high volume which has sent shockwaves through the industry.
I can't confirm when, or if, we'll make it to production. It would only be fair to say that, baring a miracle, that we are shutting down operations.
Despite the opinion of a handful of naysayers, our intent has always been earnest. We just didn't see Seek Thermal waiting in the wings, operating in stealth mode right up till their market entry. Our lack of communications was simply my paranoid belief that others were coming and I refused to share information about our camera that I believed to be detrimental to our timing into the market and the proprietary design of our camera. I never anticipated someone so deeply funded entering the market. I admit to mistakes along the way, without which we may have gotten to market quicker, and grab some market share before having to deal with Seek.
Part Two of Three
Our efforts over the past couple of years have been financed by the generous, and hopeful, contributions of IndieGoGo supporters; and the investment of even greater sums by myself, friends and family and of the contributor-partners who shared our belief in the vision of Mu Optics. At this point I'm sorry to say that unless we find financing for a continuing effort, we're unable to provide any additional refunds. I personally feel a sense of shame; not in our failure in making it to market, but that we're unable to refund your contributions at this time. I cannot apologize with more sincerity. Please know that every dime was spent in earnest effort to accomplish the goal. Everyone that collected a paycheck during this effort never earned a cent more than they would have working at McDonalds. Until such time as additional financing is found, there is no one collecting any pay from Mu Optics. As a couple of contributors have pointed out in their postings, I can tell you that my house is for sale and that those proceeds will go to collateralized lenders we borrowed from and there will be nothing left. I'm at the bottom of my pockets.
Until the past few months we refunded everyone's contribution that asked for one. We did that believing we were on the way to market and that thermal imaging cameras for the mass market was such an obvious winner that funding for production was easily around the corner.
We showed our camera working at the IMTS convention, and we also posted videos showing the working camera. As a result: we received the very positive response we hoped for. We expected to be in production within a couple of months of the show. Then Seek Thermal arrived.
Again, we've not completely thrown in the towel, but it is unlikely we will be able to continue as a company.
Part Three of Three.
Please forgive our errors.
There are individuals who are threatening to attack the good reputation of companies I have worked for in the past. Companies which have had nothing to do with Mu Optics. I am deleting any posting that makes such a threat or that contain phone numbers other than my direct cell phone number.
I am solely responsible for the efforts of Mu Optics. I am also not presently affiliated with any other company, I am unemployed other than my efforts to find production funding for Mu Optics. You can call me at xxx-xxx-xxxx or email john@muoptics.com. Any comments threatening others will be immediately deleted.
Respectfully,
John McGrath
As I commented in the SEEK thread, I would not expect Mu to place anything in the public domain that could be used as evidence of wrong doing by plaintiffs.
He can legitimately claim that he though, he tried and he failed. That is the world of product development.
I fully expect the whole matter to drift into obscurity unless someone has the money and appetite to pursue Mu through the legal system to secure their R&D note and records of work.
It may not be right but as we all know, life isn't always fair and investors regularly lose their money when risking it on new ventures. What was the contractual obligation of Mu to its investors ?... delivery of the finished product, or best endeavours to deliver the product ? Very different implications I think you will agree.
Our funding request will get Mµ Thermal Imager into the stores; however, the more funds we raise the lower we can drive our costs, and ultimately the price of the imager. We’d love to raise enough to make an order for the electronics and optics necessary that will allow us to sell the imager for less than $325. So....please, even if you see us reach our goal, consider making a contribution anyway, you’ll get the Mµ Thermal Imager at a great discount and help drive down the cost for all the contributors.
The funds we're seeking will pay for the final development and packaging of Mµ Thermal Imager, the hiring of a worldwide sales consultancy to sell Mµ Thermal Imager’s through to the hardware stores, heating and cooling companies, and insulation companies. We're also in the midst of finalizing our website which will train people in all the different ways in which thermal images can make for a healthier and lower cost home, videos from existing users and, of course, we need to place the first significant order for the parts, manufacturing, and distribution.
Being into debt, he might not own the design anymore at this moment. He'd need to have ownership to be able to release it into public.
A very good point. Any stock of parts should go to investors who request such. Hwever I don't think they had the microbolometers for production and there may be very little physical asset to distribute.
It seems odd that they sold the previously $1.1mn for ~$600k. Have prices crashed that much or was he just desperate to sell?
Would you buy a house from this man ? :-DDOnly after a thermal imaging survey ;D
You mean the house? I think you're reading the timeline upside down. It was bought for $600k some years ago, put on the market again recently at more than double that, and the price has been dropped steadily for a while because it's obviously not selling.
Hello everyone,
We are in contact with Seek Thermal and FLIR about discounts on their products to be provided to all the contributors to Mu Optics. I hope to have concrete news for you in the next few days.
Thank you,
John McGrath
Interesting...QuoteHello everyone,
We are in contact with Seek Thermal and FLIR about discounts on their products to be provided to all the contributors to Mu Optics. I hope to have concrete news for you in the next few days.
Thank you,
John McGrath
Interesting...QuoteHello everyone,
We are in contact with Seek Thermal and FLIR about discounts on their products to be provided to all the contributors to Mu Optics. I hope to have concrete news for you in the next few days.
Thank you,
John McGrath
it just means John wants to make more money by selling a list of potential clients to either Flir or Seek.
Although such a list can't be worth much to them.
Yeah, quite likely. I didn't think of that. Although such a list can't be worth much to them.
Hello everyone,
My conversations with Seek Thermal and FLIR continue towards both offering some type of discount to Mu Optics Contributors. I hope to have something concrete to share next week.
Mu Optics is not selling the Contributor's list or our unpaid Pre-Order list to either company. My efforts are towards gaining IndieGoGo contributors the highest discount that either manufacturer will offer. The Pre-Order list is simply added incentive.
I will not be providing either company with anyone's email address. Should this happen, everyone will get a single use discount code from Mu Optics to use when ordering from either FLIR or Seek Thermal.
Thank you,
John McGrath
Hello Everyone,
Seek Thermal has been gracious enough to offer a 10% discount on their camera to all of the contributors to the Mu Optics campaign. Although it's not the camera you signed on for, the Seek Camera is a leap forward in what we were going to be able to deliver. If you're interested in picking up a Seek Thermal Imager, go on over to Thermal.com and use discount code: xxxxx
We want to thank Seek Thermal for making this discount available to you all. It is a very generous and gracious offer.
We again apologize for our failure to bring our camera to market and to provide you the perk you signed up for.
Cheers,
-MuOptics
Well, looks like now they have completely thrown in the towel, as they phrased it earlier. Probably they gave some of the remaining money to Thermal.comProbably just gave them the customer list.
Well, looks like now they have completely thrown in the towel, as they phrased it earlier. Probably they gave some of the remaining money to Thermal.comProbably just gave them the customer list.
Even muoptics.com is dead.
I love the term 'perk'...... that infers that you throw money at a project and that ANY output in terms of a product is just a perk
I got an interesting email directly from indiegogo a few days ago. The survey contained three parts.
1. How likely are you to recommend indiegogo to a friend (1->10)
2. Did you receive your perk. (Yes/No)
3. Any other comments (Text)
I guess indiegogo has finally taken some interest in the failed campaign, but it seems too little, too late.
No mention of Mu on his LinkedIn profile:
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/john-mcgrath/41/352/6a7 (https://www.linkedin.com/pub/john-mcgrath/41/352/6a7)