Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?

[dustout]

Interesting idea on the crowdfunding angle.  It's a shame this new approach to funding is being abused but of course not unexpected.  I recently also crowdfunded the SticknFind which did end up getting made.  It does what it's supposed to do but seems to be a bit dodgy with dropouts and whatnot and the ios app seems pretty poorly made.  I may send one in for the mailbag / potential tear-down though there's not a whole lot in there to see I guess.  I sure love the videos... I've watched the latest 250 so far and still working my way back in time.   I realized I had not been to the site despite watching so many videos and wondered if anyone had mentioned the mu thermal imager and was not disappointed.

I think I may just save up for a more legitimate thermal imager such as the budger Flir i3 or something of the like. It would be an expensive 'toy' as I don't need it for work but this type of thing has certainly been on my want-list for a very long time and it's actually approaching affordable prices now.  I have quite an interest in thermal properties and especially its imaging.  I'm also single so no one to yell at me for such an indulgence... 

[Keef Wivanef]

Should we just shrug our shoulders and let them carry on?

What do you suggest we do?
Considering your only contribution to this forum has been this thread, you should be full of lots of good ideas?
I had the idea maybe 9 months back that I would set up a crowd funding "technical review" type blog/videoblog, but I didn't see any form of "long tail" view potential in it.
Perhaps you'd like to start one?

Sorry for the one track  contribution to your forum
but I've been busy elsewhere!
For FooKing YEARS!!!


http://forums.permaculturenews.org/archive/index.php/t-4858.html?s=3ff6680c729fb804feb402e364d6fd79
29-09-2008, 02:39 PM
I have had some fun debates with him on many public forums and have beaten him every single time.
Actually far from it. you only came off looking like an angry fool with a chip on his shoulder cutting and pasting the same tired mantra.
Im sure everyone appreciates a heads-up against scammers (not insinuating Greg is one either) but your posts just sounded vindictive for their own sake. i did notice that the moderators of the other forum actually asked you to leave when it was clear your incessant, one eyed ranting became a broken record.

All of those forums were an interesting read nonetheless, and im afraid the suncubes wont be operational in time for my own house building project, but i'll be keeping an eye on things long term. TBH i had thought it was unlikely to be up and running within a couple of years, so its not exactly straying into scam territory now is it?
keefwivanef
06-10-2008, 07:29 AM
I'm not angry
I'm not a fool either.
The fools are those who believe any of the insane promises of Greg Watson.
Here is yet another thread where Greg has been asked to show evidence that he has even one single Suncube that actually works.
http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/FOR ... D=903&PN=1 (http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/FORUM1/forum_posts.asp?TID=903&PN=1)

Watson has my contact details, he has promised to send me a "summonds from his legal council" but sadly that appears to be yet another false promise.
Greg, can you please advise the application number for your "patent pending" SunPube.
Watson has posted on many forums over the last several years. The message is - don't buy flat panels because the Sunball, Suncube, Mark 1 through 99, will be on sale shortly and it will give you five times more power for your dollar.
Whoops no, he has changed his mind and now you will have to just buy a share in his solar fantasy farm.

 (http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=102146&messages=8)

Will the fun never end?
keefwivanef


 

[ErikTheNorwegian]

Hi keefwivanef..

are you  one religion cult and this Greg another religius cult and You have made it your quest to fight each other??   

Regards
Erik
who belive in Oil...

[Keef Wivanef]

Religion?
Irrational superstitious nonsense.
Thank God I'm an atheist. 

I prefer to think of myself as a cult-buster.
True believers in Mu Thermal,  E-Cat, SunCube, V3 Spin Cell and a thousand other Fake Green Widgets are a powerful force.
Not content with wasting their own time and money on these idiotic ideas they take to the internet and spread their spiel of shite across the globe.

It is not just small time scam artists playing the game. Major "respectable " corporations are doing the same thing.
It is a TRILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY.
Green Widgets are never delivered, executives trouser the loot year after year.

Widget NEARLY ready, new improved Mark7 version in development.
Can't say any more, NDA etc.
Send more munny please.
Saving our small blue planet for our children's children, blah de blah blah.

 %-B %-B

[Corporate666]

Mail fraud is still a crime.
"In the United States, mail and wire fraud is any fraudulent scheme to intentionally deprive another of property or honest services via mail or wire communication. It has been a federal crime in the United States since 1872."

Therein lies the rub.

That goes back to what I said earlier in the thread...

If a person knows or should have known that they could not fulfill their promises, then it's a scam.

In other words, "best intentions" don't really count for much - when you take money from someone, you have an obligation to be responsible both in the solicitation of that money as well as the process whereby you take the money and effect your product/idea. 

Where the line is remains something for courts to decide, but I can't give these Mu guys the benefit of the doubt considering they appear to be deliberately obfuscating the details of their project.  That is an old tried-and-true scam technique, and as a start-up, they have no track record of success to fall back on either.

[Corporate666]

If there is another interest I could set up a dedicated part of the forum to discuss crowd funded projects. 

That is a good start, though I believed this new special dedicated part of the forum should be promoted 1st thru your video to gain more attentions from the internet crowd rather than depends on forum members to increase it's traffic.

This place itself with so many qualified and publicly known members is a good place to start this so called independent review committee/board.

I think that is a very good idea!

[Fraser]

I just had a look at the IR Blue web site....far more professional and up front about their product. Pictures o the parts kit shown and no top secret industrial secrets involved ! Wi-Fi connectivity as well 

http://rh-workshop-llc.myshopify.com/

http://rh-workshop-llc.myshopify.com/products/ir-blue-kit

The COTS 64 element thermal detector is far more realist at this price point.

[EEVblog]

Where the line is remains something for courts to decide, but I can't give these Mu guys the benefit of the doubt considering they appear to be deliberately obfuscating the details of their project.  That is an old tried-and-true scam technique, and as a start-up, they have no track record of success to fall back on either.

Although I smelled the obvious technical rat from the beginning, I originally gave them the benefit of the doubt for a bit to see if they would come through with some tangible proof of some real hardware. But it became clear that they are just spewing BS, stalling, and refusing to provide any evidence of anything.

[MacAttak]

We should be getting near the 45-day limitation for PayPal's charge dispute policy. People who funded it early will be outside of that 45-day window now and won't have any option for recourse (it hits PayPal immediately when it is a "flexible funding" project).

If the tactic is to stall, then they are doing pretty good at it. Pretty soon any refund requests will be at the mercy of what the mu optics people feel like doing. It is entirely possible that refunds are being given up until now quietly and without question, to avoid causing a panic and a "run on the bank" before that dispute window closes.

Of course that is all conjecture and conspiracy theory though. We won't really know the score until it all goes down.

[Keef Wivanef]

I just had a look at the IR Blue web site....far more professional and up front about their product. Pictures o the parts kit shown and no top secret industrial secrets involved ! Wi-Fi connectivity as well 

http://rh-workshop-llc.myshopify.com/

http://rh-workshop-llc.myshopify.com/products/ir-blue-kit

The COTS 64 element thermal detector is far more realist at this price point.

You can easily find plenty of complaints about the IR Blue and NO it is not on sale yet.
They will accept pre-orders however! http://rh-workshop-llc.myshopify.com/

Why don't you send them some money?

[Fraser]

Naaaah, no need, I already own three EEV ARGUS TICS an AGEMA 570 and a FLIR 25, why would I want toys with 64 pixels or that require a flippin mobile phone to work ?

If you want a decent TIC, you have to pay decent money for it

[tinhead]

For me I came to the conclusion that croudfunding is just another platform for scams. Guilible idiots are made to part with their money, by making them believe they order something or invest in something. While in reality they just donate money to some strangers, with no serious mechanisms in place to hold those strangers accountable. The crowdfunding platforms just pocket their share without taking any responsibility.

Can you quote any cases on Kickstarter where this is the actually the case?
There may be, but I haven't heard of any. Sure, quite a few don't deliver, or are very very late, or delivered less than promised etc
But in all the cases I've heard, they have at least genuinely tried.

OpenVizsla

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bushing/openvizsla-open-source-usb-protocol-analyzer?ref=card

[firewalker]

Yep... OpenVizsla, FTW!!! Or, fuck the backers?...

Alexander.

[EEVblog]

OpenVizsla
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bushing/openvizsla-open-source-usb-protocol-analyzer?ref=card

Sure, it seems they failed to deliver. But at least I see photos of real production boards.
So doesn't seem to be an outright scam.
I can't see the latest updates because I'm not a backer.
And is that the same "bushing" of Rigol hacking fame here on the forum?

[eliocor]

being a baker of OpenVizsla I can say that the last update (#29) was sent on 2013-01-30
At least they have shown some photos... Not too much to be happy, but... IIRC "only" 150USD thrown away!: 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

We've made great progress with this delayed near-final prototype and we wanted to share the images with you in this interim update.
They say a picture paints a thousand words..
Here is the start of the process, this is the PCB panel being stencilled with solder paste. This machine squeezes the correct amount of solder through a highly polished, laser cut metal stencil.



After the stencilling is completed and the solder placement has been checked the board it sent over to the machine that places the components on the board.
Here are the majority of the components placed into that "pick and place" machine.




The machine has a file with the coordinates of each component that needs to be placed onto the panel.
The component is picked from the reels and then placed onto the board at incredibly high speed. panel with placed parts.



Once the placement is complete then the board is again checked and goes into the vapour phase soldering machine.



This machine uses condensation heating, reflow is achieved by sitting within a layer of saturated vapour that causes the solder paste to melt.
Here are the settings just before it starts the reflow process.



Here is a video of this process.http://youtu.be/BDegfybAF7MOnce the board is completed the components are visually checked (using a microscope) and then they move onto X-ray inspection.
This is the X-ray inspection of the FPGA


This has been placed and soldered near perfectly (there will be some slight adjustments to the ground pad vias and solder paste so that we get even more uniformly reflowed solder there (but this certainly isn't a show stopper).

Here you can see a close up of the "via in pad" that is used to breakout some of the signals from the incredibly small FPGA.



And here is the X-ray of the XMOS part (you can even see bond-wires onto the actual silicon inside the chip package!)



The X-ray machine is able to check the actual solder joins on a part using 3D X-ray techniques, here is an image of the USB PHY part, you can see the part itself, copper tracks, vias and other passive components nearby. This machine is amazing and really helps with checking for any hidden physical problems related to the board.



Once all that is done the PTH (plated through-hole) components are added (USB connectors etc) and the units are removed from the panel.
We hope you will agree that this has been worth the wait.



The OpenVizsla board placed on top of a Credit Card.
This board will be tested over the next few days and assuming all is well, this will move onto serial production very soon.
More updates to follow over the coming days!

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

At least they have shown some photos... Not too much to be happy, but... IIRC "only" 150USD thrown away!

[BravoV]

Pretty convincing, thanks ! 

Thats it, not even a single doubt, Dave, c'mon, this forum is the right place to start this independent review board, you should think of this seriously.

[firewalker]

Nice!

Alexander.

[Keef Wivanef]

You are offering this up as a successful kickstarter project??

What do they have to show 3 years after getting the loot?
Some photos of (somebody else's) pick and place production line.
WHOOPTEE DOO!

Do they have a working USB analyser?
Have they delivered any?


"Chris Grayson on April 14, 2012
I funded this and never received anything from anyone. Not even so much as an email communication. The OpenVizsla has nothing but a link to this KickStarter project. The Twitter account has never sent a single tweet. You guys raised over $80k, more than four times what you asked for, almost a year and a half ago, and just took the money and ran. Someone should sue you."

Hold that train for Leavenworth!

[MacAttak]

They aren't all train wrecks. Here is a counterpoint example of one that I recently backed. It raised 15 times the goal amount, all units were shipped on time. Actually, many were early. And that's after the project owner made some major last-minute alterations to the design at the recommendation of several backers.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1106670630/mojo-digital-design-for-the-hobbyist

I got mine last week, and managed to break the USB connector off because my micro usb cable fit too snugly and I tried too hard to force it. He sent me a replacement board at no charge. And since a couple other people have also managed to snap off their USB connector, he is changing the design for v2 to incorporate a more durable connector that has better strain relief.

You can see how I managed to break it by lifting the pads and snapping some traces (it is dangling by the two data line traces). Not really a board design defect as much as it's a defect with that particular connector design. IMO it really needed to have through-hole posts for strain relief instead of those wimpy SMD ground pads:



It's a beautiful board and the build quality of mine was impeccable. The only issue was the USB connector which relied on small ground pads for strain relief - which are a little too easy to lift from the PCB.


So yeah, there are some bad apples out there, but there are some good experiences too.

[Keef Wivanef]

They aren't all train wrecks.

I am not saying they are all train wrecks.
I'm saying that some of them are.
I'm saying that presumed innocent is a green light for scammers.
 

[EEVblog]

I'm saying that presumed innocent is a green light for scammers.

You also can't just assume everyone is a scammer until proven otherwise.
That is why the likes of Kickstarter have implemented the prototype rule. You have to show something tangible before you are allowed in.

[Bored@Work]

You also can't just assume everyone is a scammer until proven otherwise.

That is exactly what I do when it comes to crowdsourcing.

From some age on you don't want to waste time by constantly and repeatedly evaluating every new fad. They come and, more important, they go. Instead, when you no longer can ignore a new fad, because people are constantly trying to shove it up your arse, you give it a good look and make an assessment. Based on that you decide if you want to be part of it or not, and then move on with your life.

[Corporate666]

The biggest problem with Crowdfunding is that even if the idea is really good and the people implementing it are well intentioned and not scammers.... if those people have never run a business before, they are going to make a dog's breakfast of the whole thing.  At best, it will be delayed.  At worst, everyone loses their money. 

The times that this doesn't happen are when professional companies with a track record of success (or at least a track record of being a real business) are the ones behind the project.  But Kickstarter generally doesn't want those people crowdfunding projects because it's supposed to be for projects that would not otherwise happen.

KS says they do not want to be used as a sales/pre-order platform, but that is total bullshit.  I bought a pen from a couple of guys - Huang and Chadwick or something.  Well, they have made at least 5 or 6 projects for different kinds of pens.  It is not true that "without the KS backers, this new pen would never see the light of day"... they are just using it as a sales tool and pre-order platform.  Which is specifically what KS claims they aren't.

But they know they are just as everyone else knows it.  When KS does no due diligence on their project creators and turns a blind eye to projects that obviously go against their claimed raison d'etre, it seriously undermines how truthful the KS people are being about "we are not a pre-order site nor are we a store" (wink, wink... give us yer money and you'll get this new shiny widget, really!).

They are ripe for a crackdown. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

They aren't all train wrecks. Here is a counterpoint example of one that I recently backed. It raised 15 times the goal amount, all units were shipped on time. Actually, many were early. And that's after the project owner made some major last-minute alterations to the design at the recommendation of several backers.

This project is at least an order of magnitude less hard than most - minimal software involved  and no mechanical stuff. You'd have to be seriously incompetent to mess that up.

[Hypernova]

I wonder if they can change KS into loan agency like institutions. You don't just receive the money when backed but instead get a zero interest loan, upon project delivery the debt is paid with the pledged funds.