Author Topic: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?  (Read 381170 times)

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Offline kentuckyEE

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1125 on: September 10, 2014, 03:12:11 am »
Still more,
He's claiming the imager is new technology that is derived from defense tech developed in these last several years of war to go on tips of missiles and whatnot. As those wars wound down, he says these industries want to make money off their new low cost microbolometers. I'm paraphrasing and probably getting it wrong. Take it as you will.

Matt
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1126 on: September 10, 2014, 03:17:40 am »
What you want to see:
http://imgur.com/a/9Tk4d

Link doesn't work :(

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Offline miguelvp

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1127 on: September 10, 2014, 03:20:17 am »
works now, strange.

And more strange, you don't show up in the selfie, seems like it was a previous capture or the live update is really long.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 03:22:55 am by miguelvp »
 

Offline kentuckyEE

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1128 on: September 10, 2014, 03:22:25 am »
Having trouble doing all this from my iPad.

http://imgur.com/a/9Tk4d

I can email the pics to someone if that won't work... Or text... Or facebook.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1129 on: September 10, 2014, 03:29:55 am »
No problem they do show up now.
 

Offline kentuckyEE

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1130 on: September 10, 2014, 03:41:18 am »
The live update is long. Perhaps 5 seconds. He's saying EMC issues. Who knows? John actually took this pic for me and its odd he didn't wait for it to update. That's why I'm going back for the video.

In response to a previous question, he didn't have a PCB to show anyone. I have no clue what's inside.
 

Offline timb

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1131 on: September 10, 2014, 04:39:03 am »
To be fair, WiFi *could* be causing issues. I was helping man the Spark Core (WiFi Internet-of-Strings MCU) booth at Maker Faire this year. Basically nobody else could get WiFi to work in the entire building, because of the sheer amount of devices in the vicinity.

(Though, we were one of the *only* booths to have working WiFi; How? We brought a hacked router set on the European band and forced all the demo units to do the same. It wasn’t 100% reliable because of the sheer amount of RF noise in the area, but it was better than nothing!)
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Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1132 on: September 10, 2014, 06:49:24 am »
The number of bits per pixel looks low in the images, like there are only 8 values (3 bits) or so. Maybe ask him how many bits per pixel the sensor delivers. No problem for a missile head to differentiate between an airplane turbine and the background sky, but doesn't look useful for an IR imager. And the application looks very basic. Should have at least a min/max temperature value display, and I would expect with the touch interface of a smartphone, it should show the temperature at the touch point, but maybe this is already possible and the images show a special mode.
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Offline Fraser

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1133 on: September 10, 2014, 08:48:06 am »
Missile target acquisition technology is not a common sensor in the marketplace so Mu's original claim of such appears incorrect. As to such technology being made available to the public..., I have serious doubts as the US DoD are not known for their high risk appetite and would tightly control such technology. I am not convinced that Mu have a current military technology target acquisition sensor but happy to be proved wrong.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 12:01:54 pm by Aurora »
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1134 on: September 10, 2014, 09:00:15 am »
Ask what the actual resolution and framerate is.
 If it's >9Hz  (should be fairly obvious by looking at it)  they will need an export license for every unit they ship outside the US, and (AIUI) an end-user certificate to be completed by every domestic purchaser.   
Quote
He's claiming the imager is new technology that is derived from defense tech developed in these last several years of war to go on tips of missiles and whatnot. As those wars wound down, he says these industries want to make money off their new low cost microbolometers.

Typical waffle.
If a thermal imaging comapany is actively trying to market their sensors, why would they only be dealing with a bunch of idiots like Mu?
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Offline Fraser

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1135 on: September 10, 2014, 11:26:23 am »
The paperwork cost for Miltech export is likely to exceed the predicted retail cost of the Mu, so either it is low frame rate (<9Hz) or it will likely be limited to USA domestic sales only. OR maybe the end game will be the staff of Mu getting arrested and thrown in Gaol for illegal exportation of Miltech from the USA....now that would be truly going out with a bang .... "sorry we cannot supply all our backers with the promised cameras as we are banged up in Guantanamo Bay"  ;D

At least this thread has regained some life and may give us all some more entertainment than of late. Keep going Mu, don't disappoint us again.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 11:58:20 am by Aurora »
 

Offline CanadianAvenger

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1136 on: September 10, 2014, 11:42:04 am »
Quote
He's claiming the imager is new technology that is derived from defense tech developed in these last several years of war to go on tips of missiles and whatnot. As those wars wound down, he says these industries want to make money off their new low cost microbolometers.

Oh so we're back to some mysterious new sensor. Is it the same one they rejected oh so many months ago in favor of a proven sensor that "has been on the market for sometime"?... yet another technological pivot... I smell more bullshit!
 

Offline callipso

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1137 on: September 10, 2014, 12:17:17 pm »
They are just so inconsistent in their claims... Makes it hard to believe even though we have pictures...

 :bullshit:
I wonder... **BOOM
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1138 on: September 10, 2014, 12:21:57 pm »
For anyone wanting a real thermal imaging camera of good build quality and performance, you may wish to consider the NEC Avio F30S that is available in its Mikron guise here:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mikron-Mikroshot-B-160x120-Thermal-imaging-camera-imager-flir-/261584855972?

The UK service agent for NEC Avio thought I had found a bargain when I told him how much I paid for a pair of these from that seller. The frame rate is 8.5fps with 160x120 resolution, but that is good enough for my needs and the camera has manual focus down to 10cm which is great for PCB work. Power is from 3 AA Ni-Mh cells and storage is via SD card. Software for PC download is freely available from Mikron and NEC Avio.

Worth thinking about as I made an offer that was accepted and I can say it was significantly less than the BIN price. It wouldn't be fair on the seller to say exactly how much though. He's a really nice chap and has 5 more cameras available for sale.

Mine is presently in UK customs with delivery due shortly. No export/import issues as less than 9fps  :) 

If you want on, you could mention my name (Fraser of Aurora_communications) to him and ask if he is willing to offer the same deal as I had. No harm in asking.

Why buy an unproven, likely very iffy Mu camera when you can buy a professional and quality product from a respected Japanese manufacturer for a little bit more money ? Plus you are guaranteed to get it, unlike the Mu.

I have no connection with the seller but found him to be a really good person to deal with. I mentioned the cameras to Mike in case he was interested but he already has what he needs so no video teardown I am afraid.

Aurora
 

Offline CanadianAvenger

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1139 on: September 10, 2014, 05:45:58 pm »
The live update is long. Perhaps 5 seconds. He's saying EMC issues. Who knows? John actually took this pic for me and its odd he didn't wait for it to update. That's why I'm going back for the video.

In response to a previous question, he didn't have a PCB to show anyone. I have no clue what's inside.

Delay could also be due to processing a visible image to simulate a thermal one. [not saying that is the case, but given the deceptions so far, I wouldn't put it past them] If you can bring a glass camera filter [UV0 would be good] and place it in-front of the thermal lens. If the camera is still showing a thermal image for what is behind then what is being displayed is a simulated image.
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1140 on: September 10, 2014, 07:19:07 pm »
The live update is long. Perhaps 5 seconds. He's saying EMC issues. Who knows? John actually took this pic for me and its odd he didn't wait for it to update. That's why I'm going back for the video.

In response to a previous question, he didn't have a PCB to show anyone. I have no clue what's inside.

Delay could also be due to processing a visible image to simulate a thermal one. [not saying that is the case, but given the deceptions so far, I wouldn't put it past them] If you can bring a glass camera filter [UV0 would be good] and place it in-front of the thermal lens. If the camera is still showing a thermal image for what is behind then what is being displayed is a simulated image.

You could also use a cellphoone display: if you point the screen at the camera and see the picture in it, it's a fake.
 

Offline kentuckyEE

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1141 on: September 10, 2014, 08:27:44 pm »
Hello again,

I took more pictures and video today at the show. The whole team (I believe) was there. We were able to see the AC system functioning in the viewfinder. Also, they put a lighter in front of it for a video. Of some interest, the lighter caused the imager to recalibrate. I was also able to retake my selfie, for what it's worth.

Also, Mu's engineer says the imager will supply 30-50fps. This is, as they indicated, data... Not upsampled video.

Wifi was still causing issues with their framerate. The engineer believes it's trouble with the wifi link.  He says it performs at the 30-50fps without hundreds of wireless access points around. John thought yesterday it was interference with the imager.

More later! Gotta finish this trade show free beer.
 

Offline Sparkey_500

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1142 on: September 11, 2014, 04:44:47 am »
2 updates in 2 days. Here is the newest one with videos.

Hello,

Here's a couple of videos from the show.  These were taken from in front of the booth we're showing in.  The camera is on a tripod and this is just a sample as I run through the software options.   We'll get the camera off the tripod before the end of the show and take sample shots of some of the equipment being demo'ed at the show.


 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1143 on: September 11, 2014, 05:19:09 am »
First video, at 10 to 11 seconds, and again at about 15seconds.

IR images are very slow.  Then changes to visible and the update rate seems fine.

IR appears to be frozen during the switch to/from visible

The user puts their finger in front of the device to grip it, finger nowhere near the Mu lens assembly, but covers the phone's own visible camera lens, and the image on the phone is obscured.

There is a large distance between the phone's lens, and the Mu lens, however the visible and IR images seem to be very closely aligned. 

I'm surprised that this is not evident in the visible image, I would have expected it's update rate to be quite sluggish due to the processing that must be necessary to get decent alignment?





If you look at for example, the FlirOne, they use their own visible camera, situated right next to the IR camera, as close as they could physically get it, not miles away, and even they get misaligned at close distance.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2014, 05:31:59 am by sleemanj »
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Offline mvdswaluw

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1144 on: September 11, 2014, 06:11:04 am »
Obscuring is only visible after change to blend mode. So only normal camera is blocked.
 

Offline bktemp

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1145 on: September 11, 2014, 06:40:47 am »
The cup the man is holding has a black/blue color. Therefore it is the coldest part of of the picture. But when the measurement cursor is moved onto the cup it tells 31.2°C which is much warmer than other parts.
 

Offline sleemanj

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1146 on: September 11, 2014, 06:44:20 am »
Obscuring is only visible after change to blend mode. So only normal camera is blocked.

Yes, but the IR image appears to be frozen to me at the time the visible camera is obscured, it's so laggy we can't really be sure either way.



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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1147 on: September 11, 2014, 09:37:17 am »
So after 18 months they show one prototype of a working camera.
The fact that it was possible was never in question, the issue is  the ability to do it anywhere near the price/spec they were claiming.

And why would you overlay a banner with the show name across the image?
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Offline sunnyhighway

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1148 on: September 11, 2014, 01:17:54 pm »
And why would you overlay a banner with the show name across the image?

What you see there is the SSID of the Wi-Fi connection, which also happens to be the name of the exhibition.
 

Offline nixfu

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Re: Mµ Thermal Imager - real or fake?
« Reply #1149 on: September 11, 2014, 03:24:54 pm »
>There is a large distance between the phone's lens, and the Mu lens, however the visible and IR images seem to be very closely aligned. 

This is easy to do.  A friend brought in the iphone thing made by FLIR this week and the IR image sensor is in the middle of the phone back and the regular iphone camera is at the top and their software let you swipe back and forth between normal optical, and IR images seamlessly with your finger. 

I imagine its easy enough to either do some edge detections, or pre-calculate the image offsets and make it align very well.


Honestly, seeing this thing it looks VERY VERY similar to the FLIR ONE iphone5 device I played with this week.
 


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