Author Topic: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch  (Read 33961 times)

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Offline Stupid Beard

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2016, 06:25:32 pm »
I do not go to gym but do people really wear watches in the gym? Id think there is possibilities to damage it plus all that sweat and smell. I would not want my watch stink.

I don't go to the gym either, but I am a runner. Almost every runner and cyclist I know uses either a Garmin or a TomTom sports watch. That's because they have GPS, heart rate, cadence, etc and are first and foremost aimed at sports. Generally, even those that use other watches the rest of the time will use sports watches while running or cycling. This includes in gyms while using static bikes, but I don't know about other uses of the gym.

To be fair, I'm talking about club runners so people who are pretty serious about running. It may be very different for the casual crowd that are exercising for other reasons, though I suspect that market will be dominated by phones and "fitness tracker" things like the fitbit.

I guess what I'm saying is that during the activities where the most body heat is generated, almost nobody would be wearing a watch like the matrix powerwatch because it is not useful during those activities.
 

Offline Koen

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2016, 08:13:04 pm »
As a side note, what's up with the distributors perks in these campaigns ? Current selling price for 1 is 99 USD, the distributor perk is 100 for 9999 USD so there isn't even a discount and the eventual later MSRP would be 169 USD for 1. Who are the 4 persons who thought : this is great, I, as a business, will invest 10K in a project that may or may not ever see light to earn 20 USD on each watch I do manage to sell after the hype died down. Considering the crowdfunding risk, the fact you're out 10K for a year and the fact you'll be making a loss until the very last are sold at a profit.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2016, 09:57:39 pm »
There's absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical, but the characterization is that we're a bunch of fly-by-night marketers. The team has between 5 and 13 years of thermoelectric experience. We're a bunch of geeks like you guys, PhDs in EE, Chemistry and Materials Science.

No one said otherwise. A cursory glance at your profiles reveals that.
That does not mean your product is practical though.

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The Arrow certification was important to us to quiet the skeptics. They reviewed the entire circuit diagram. It was not just a bill of materials scan.

Err, the "circuit diagram" is nothing, the entire practicality of this concept relies entirely upon the system engineering of the entire solution. Thermodymanicas, the power envelopes, and the

BTW, who are we actually speaking to here?

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BLE radio obviously requires a lot of current, and that's where the internal battery takes over. Otherwise, your body heat is generating the power for the watch. That being said TEGs can light up LEDs when designed right.

Spare us the LED anecdote, please quantify your answers, we are engineers here, many with vast experience.

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I'm obviously not going to change minds here and so I won't even try. My offer still stands that if any of you want to visit our lab and see a watch build from the bottom up or any of our other energy harvesting demos, you are welcome to. That's probably the only way for you to be convinced that this tech is for real.

Come on, don't give up, just so are the data, some data, anything.
You can change our minds very easily.
Why won't you simply provide us with data?
Are you unable to, or afraid to?
I think it's a pretty reasonable request.
I went through some ballpark calculation before based on your own number, please tell me were I went wrong and why.
And please tell us why your TEG solution is in  any way more practical than a simple USB charging solution.

I'll do an additional calculation to the ones above, maybe you can comment?

Let's say you use the bluetooth until you drain your battery (can you give us the data on that?), and then decide you want to charge up your watch again.
You would have to exercise for 1200 hours straight to do that based on your best case number of 500uW, assuming no losses.
How then is TEG a practical charging solution?

I feel a video coming on...
« Last Edit: November 16, 2016, 10:09:07 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline albert22

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2016, 10:45:28 pm »
Years ago I bought a "dynamo" led light and got tired of squeezing the thing to charge the battery. Until I torn it down and found it was a total fake. The battery was not rechargeable and not connected to the dynamo in any way.
just as this one

And that was only two bucks. Please allow me to be skeptical.
Also why I would care to charge with my sweat a battery that lasts 2 years?
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2016, 11:49:11 pm »
Dave, we welcome a video. My only request is that you interview a Matrix team member to hear our side of the story. Also, happy to share our confidential data with you in private. Easiest would be for you to visit our lab, but I take it you're in New Zealand? Maybe we can do a Skype call? Please contact us at support@matrixindustries.com to set something up. I promise we don't bite.

Also, I think the bigger picture here is that we are trying to get thermoelectric energy harvesting into the mainstream. There are a lot of use case beyond a smartwatch as I'm sure you can agree. We are a small startup and we're very passionate about thermoelectrics especially as it applies to wearables and IoT.

You may think our watch is a gimmick, but we certainly don't. We've spent the better part of five years developing a system level solution for this tech, from optimizing the hardware's power consumption and also the firmware.

 

Offline ludzinc

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2016, 12:03:29 am »
... but I take it you're in New Zealand?

You bastards fight dirty.
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2016, 12:09:39 am »
LOL, I have no idea what that means.

Also, should have said, we've spent the better part of five years optimizing the TEGs, thermal engineering, AND hardware/firmware.
 

Online Bud

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2016, 12:10:25 am »
Ok so seems you ignored my request for help, anyway it was not hard to find Arrow certification offer

https://www.arrow.com/en/indiegogo/get-certified

Just the URL itself says it all. Do i heed to repeat?

.../indiegogo/get-certified

Seems Arrow found a genuine wag to tap into the Indiegigo stream

Still,  and as was expected, they only assess from manufacturability , not from practicality perspective. So no, your watch certification by Arrow tells me exactly nothing.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 
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Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #33 on: November 17, 2016, 12:15:10 am »
Sorry, I missed your comment.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2016, 12:20:34 am »
Sorry, I missed your comment.

I guess you missed mine too:

How about if you tell us what this means:

Quote
Accurate Calorie Count

Your body turns the calories you consume into heat. The PowerWatch accurately measures the calories you burn using our advanced thermoelectric technology.
 

Offline Carl_Smith

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2016, 01:01:11 am »
So it can run for TWO YEARS on the internal battery  :o

So they will ship the watch with a fully charged battery and nobody will figure out until 2 years later that the TEG provides no significant power contribution...

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2016, 01:11:33 am »
edavid, yep missed your comment too.

A direct measurement of calorie loss is by measuring heat loss from the body. You can find more info on your own through a search of the academic literature, which I'll spare you of here. Most gadgets measure caloric loss by measuring respiration, or heart beat, or step count.

 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2016, 01:12:53 am »
Carl_Smith: the PowerWatch provides more power than the watch consumes when it's worn.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2016, 01:30:22 am »
edavid, yep missed your comment too.

A direct measurement of calorie loss is by measuring heat loss from the body.
How can you measure heat loss over the whole body from a single point temperature measurement?

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You can find more info on your own through a search of the academic literature, which I'll spare you of here.
No, I definitely want your citations!  Thanks!

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Most gadgets measure caloric loss by measuring respiration, or heart beat, or step count.
Why do they bother with that if your simple thermal method works?
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 01:33:33 am by edavid »
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2016, 01:38:59 am »
All,

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical, but the characterization is that we're a bunch of fly-by-night marketers. The team has between 5 and 13 years of thermoelectric experience. We're a bunch of geeks like you guys, PhDs in EE, Chemistry and Materials Science.

The Arrow certification was important to us to quiet the skeptics. They reviewed the entire circuit diagram. It was not just a bill of materials scan.

BLE radio obviously requires a lot of current, and that's where the internal battery takes over. Otherwise, your body heat is generating the power for the watch. That being said TEGs can light up LEDs when designed right.

I'm obviously not going to change minds here and so I won't even try. My offer still stands that if any of you want to visit our lab and see a watch build from the bottom up or any of our other energy harvesting demos, you are welcome to. That's probably the only way for you to be convinced that this tech is for real.

If you have actual data, then I think everyone here would be very happy to stand corrected.  It has happened before - and people who were first treated skeptically have been welcomed and found lots of support among the members.

Dave has put forth some calculations which I don't see anything wrong with, and which match my gut feel (and that of other members) - which is that the very best case would be that tiny amounts of power would be generated only with the very best case (cold weather and heavy exercise) and would be dramatically less than if you just plugged the thing into a USB port for literally a few minutes. 

On that basis, the TEG stuff seems like nothing more than a gimmick.  You haven't disclosed at all to your backers under what conditions they can expect the watch to generate power, which indicates you don't want to give out that information.  Why not?

I hope Dave takes you up on your offer - because he doesn't tolerate or fall for BS.  And so far, the "we aren't going to convince anyone so why bother" stuff comes across as "we're not going to fool anyone here so we won't bother trying". 

I would very much like to find out I am wrong on that.  But I tend to doubt it. 

I am also very curious what this Arrow certification is.  I work with Arrow quite a lot - I will have to make some inquiries about you guys and see who you talked to and what exactly this "certification" involved.  You say they looked at the design - are you suggesting they are assuring it will perform as advertised?  That is very much the way you are presenting their certification to your backers, but I am certain they are making no such representation about whether your watch will work as claimed.  I'd like to know what this certification actually involves, specifically.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 01:44:28 am by Corporate666 »
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2016, 02:01:22 am »
Per Arrow's website, Arrow certification" has NOTHING to do with whether the product actually works or does what it claims to do. 

Arrow certification on IGG is:

1) BOM review to make sure you haven't forgotten anything or haven't specified parts that have lower cost alternatives (more likely they probably just want to see if Arrow has any cross reference PN's for items on the BOM they don't carry).

2) DFM review.  Says their team will analyze how viable your product is for manufacture at low cost - their engineers will identify issues.

Nothing about whether the device will perform as claimed or anything like that. They are hyping up the Arrow certification as some form of expert review and stamp of approval of their design (saying it was important to quiet the skeptics).  It is nothing of the sort.  Claiming otherwise is a big red flag.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2016, 02:47:12 am »
Dave, we welcome a video. My only request is that you interview a Matrix team member to hear our side of the story.

Not going to happen, I do my own thing.
If you don't publish public data, that's your choice. I'll do my own calcs.
No secret squirrel stuff.

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Also, I think the bigger picture here is that we are trying to get thermoelectric energy harvesting into the mainstream. There are a lot of use case beyond a smartwatch as I'm sure you can agree.

That's wonderful, and I support that, but that's got nothing to do with the practicality of your product.
Your inability to provide data or answer questions with quantitative answers speaker volumes about the practicality of your product.

Quote
You may think our watch is a gimmick, but we certainly don't. We've spent the better part of five years developing a system level solution for this tech, from optimizing the hardware's power consumption and also the firmware.

That's great, but you are taking other people's money. The practicality of your product will be questioned by engineers.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2016, 02:48:08 am »
Also, should have said, we've spent the better part of five years optimizing the TEGs, thermal engineering, AND hardware/firmware.

That's great, but that doesn't automatically make your product a practical idea.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2016, 02:57:57 am »
A direct measurement of calorie loss is by measuring heat loss from the body. You can find more info on your own through a search of the academic literature, which I'll spare you of here. Most gadgets measure caloric loss by measuring respiration, or heart beat, or step count.

How does your algorithm account for the autonomic nervous system shunting heat around the body during exercise?
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2016, 02:59:58 am »
Carl_Smith: the PowerWatch provides more power than the watch consumes when it's worn.

Why can't you quantify anything?
How much more on average?

And given that you have not critiqued my calculations in any way, I'm going to assume that I'm not far off the money.

Also, one question, what is the capacity of the internal battery?
And what type of battery/supercap is it?
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2016, 03:02:09 am »
Per Arrow's website, Arrow certification" has NOTHING to do with whether the product actually works or does what it claims to do. 

Yep

 

Offline Carl_Smith

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2016, 04:01:06 am »
Carl_Smith: the PowerWatch provides more power than the watch consumes when it's worn.

Then why does it need a battery that is apparently capable of running the watch for 2 years? 

I had the idea years ago to power a watch of a thermoelectric generator.  But I wasn't planning to power a smartwatch, just a normal digital watch, which requires far less power.  I never planned to make it a product, just hack something together as an experiment and throw a write up on my blog page, because after a bit of thinking I realized it wasn't practical for anything other than an experiment.  It didn't take much thought to come up with all the problems that everyone here has already brought up, like the fact that you usually have only a few degrees temperature difference between skin temp and air temp.  And what happens if you don't wear it when sleeping, or if you do, but it ends up under a blanket or pillow?   What if you are outside in the summer and the air temperature actually climbs up to or even exceeds a person's normal skin temperature?  Or the sun shines on the watch and warms it up close to or above skin temperature?

I find energy harvesting concepts very interesting.  I was amazed when I first learned that someone had designed a light switch that could capture enough energy from just the click of the switch to power up a zigbee radio and send an on/off command to a wireless light controller.   I think we are all prepared to be amazed again if you can make this work, but as of yet you've had plenty of opportunity to provide some hard data to back up your claims and completely failed to do so.  Which leads me to believe that this product is mostly just wishful thinking.

Offline JimRemington

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2016, 04:09:32 am »
Quote
because after a bit of thinking I realized it wasn't practical for anything other than an experiment.
Well, that was your big mistake. Indiegogo and Kickstarter have shown over and over again that these ideas can be very, very practical for parting fools from their money!

As for me, I can't wait for my Fontus self-replenishing water bottle to arrive, which, fascinatingly enough, works on the reverse principle of the Matrix PowerWatch.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 04:15:17 am by JimRemington »
 

Offline Carl_Smith

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2016, 05:05:12 am »
As for me, I can't wait for my Fontus self-replenishing water bottle to arrive, which, fascinatingly enough, works on the reverse principle of the Matrix PowerWatch.

Ooooh.  You're onto something there.  Put the two together and you might be able to make an endlessly filling water bottle that always tells the time.

Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2016, 09:47:08 am »
I was close to the mark on the battery:
From: https://www.engadget.com/2016/11/14/matrix-powerwatch-hands-on/
 


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