Author Topic: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch  (Read 34247 times)

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Offline Gallymimus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2016, 05:03:40 am »
All,

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being skeptical, but the characterization is that we're a bunch of fly-by-night marketers. The team has between 5 and 13 years of thermoelectric experience. We're a bunch of geeks like you guys, PhDs in EE, Chemistry and Materials Science.

The Arrow certification was important to us to quiet the skeptics. They reviewed the entire circuit diagram. It was not just a bill of materials scan.

BLE radio obviously requires a lot of current, and that's where the internal battery takes over. Otherwise, your body heat is generating the power for the watch. That being said TEGs can light up LEDs when designed right.

I'm obviously not going to change minds here and so I won't even try. My offer still stands that if any of you want to visit our lab and see a watch build from the bottom up or any of our other energy harvesting demos, you are welcome to. That's probably the only way for you to be convinced that this tech is for real.

The Arrow connection is great.  We are Arrow design partners.  I'd be happy to fact check this and quell the skeptics if you let us know who your local sales/FAE Arrow corporate contact is.
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2016, 05:09:12 am »
We actually work closely with Arrow and the startups they partner with, beyond the BOM check and and maneuverability check they also offer significant design support.  So they very well could have had significant input on the design and practicality. BUT, as I said, share the local sales/FAE (there are many of them in that region) and we'll check it out.
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2016, 05:13:10 am »
One other thought.  The technology is patented according to the article here: http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20161114005195/en/Matrix-Launches-PowerWatch-World%E2%80%99s-Smartwatch-Charging

So, no disclosure of confidential information necessary.  Just need a patent number to check it out!  The proof that it's all good and legit will be right there for everyone to see. 
 

Offline johndoe123

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #78 on: November 18, 2016, 07:29:12 am »
it looks like the ces model had some heat sink in the wrist band but the last model doesnt have that anymore, just saying
 

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #79 on: November 18, 2016, 07:44:17 am »
It's coming...

 
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Offline daqq

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #80 on: November 18, 2016, 08:34:23 am »
Quote
No point in sharing our data, which I've offered to you in private. Your calculations are spot on. We look forward to your video!
That's quite fishy really. There is no point in NOT sharing measurement data.

I agree that proprietary information (schematics, mechanical design, firmware...) need not be shared, but a simple CSV file containing lots of measurements with body temperature, ambient temperature, outside conditions (humidity, pressure, what the person was doing etc.), total electric power generated by the device, total electric power consumed by the device (and the mode it is in and what is it doing) is not that much to ask. There is no reason to NOT share such data as once the device is available for purchase anyone can do the measurements anyway.
Believe it or not, pointy haired people do exist!
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Online PA0PBZ

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #81 on: November 18, 2016, 08:52:58 am »
the thing is, nobody is saying it doesn't work, but it's as practical as putting a solar roof on your Tesla...
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 
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Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #82 on: November 18, 2016, 09:41:52 am »
it looks like the ces model had some heat sink in the wrist band but the last model doesnt have that anymore, just saying

Apparently it's on the sides or something now. Won't be hugely effective I'd bet.
 

Offline _Andrew_

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #83 on: November 18, 2016, 10:51:03 am »
If there on the level the impression I am getting from reading Matrix Industries replies is that for some time they have been developing conceptual devices that are powered by means of waist energy harvesting, in this instance the waist energy is in the form of radiated heat.
The use of peltier type devices for generating electricity is not new, the challenge has always been what useful energy can be produced and how to efficiently make use of that energy. 

In fact there not the only company doing this, I had a discussion only few weeks ago with an individual who has had patients granted for applications employing harvesting waist energy in the form of heat.   

So how far for a reasonable cost can you push the energy harvesting capabilities of a peltier device, and just how efficient are the latest ultra-low energy integrated devices at using this energy. 

A comment that really stood out to me from Matrix is that the PowerWatch is intended to bring their development efforts out of the shadows. So in one sense the PowerWatch is a novelty but it is to prove that they can produce a compact telemetry device that can be powered by waist heat energy from the environment it is in.
Also up until this date how have they been funding there activities, are there already venture capitalists with a grip on any future pie to be had which limits approaching further conventional investors.

Crowd funding is another form of VC which by its nature is with risk and it is important to keep that in mind. What the crowd funding investor hopes to get is whatever the promise of reword will be for their level of investment. In this case a watch powered from energy that is radiated from your body in the form of heat.
By sourcing finance from crowd funding means that Matrix are not having to give up a stake in their business or any rights they own as they would have to do going through conventional finance sources.

Conventional finance sources may have considered there project to higher investment risk for the amount they would have to put in but with crowd funding that risk is divided, so an individual investor is not as exposed as a large single investor. So they may be more willing to take the risk.
Say somebody looks at this and think to themselves that it appeals to them and that they have a belief in this so there prepared to take a gamble and pledge there $139, and anticipate the reward of a working PowerWatch.

If all goes to plan with  IGG Matrix makes valuable income, successfully launches a product, boosts there profile, prove to existing investors that can deliver a working product, open doors to move ahead with producing products for industrial telemetry / medical applications and any other application they can apply the technology to.
For the IGG investor they get there shiny new PowerWatch.

On the other hand if it all goes horribly wrong then the reverse of the above will happen and the IGG and any other investors they have will be out of pocket.

Simple rule with gambling. Never bet with more than you can afford and are prepared to lose.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #84 on: November 18, 2016, 01:46:26 pm »
If there on the level the impression I am getting from reading Matrix Industries replies is that for some time they have been developing conceptual devices that are powered by means of waist energy harvesting, in this instance the waist energy is in the form of radiated heat.

Actually, it's really powered from the fully charged lithium ion battery when the customer gets it. The TEG just keeps it "topped up" if it's able to generate enough excess.
The exact same watch could have just used a 2032 coin cell (or bigger) and have gotten several years of use, even with Bluetooth LE enabled 24/7.
If you ripped the TEG out of it it would still last for a year or more.
 

Offline matrixindustries

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #85 on: November 18, 2016, 02:48:25 pm »
 |O Your last comment is so stunningly inaccurate and exposes your ignorance. Please proceed!
 

Online Koen

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2016, 03:03:42 pm »
Also up until this date how have they been funding there activities, are there already venture capitalists with a grip on any future pie to be had which limits approaching further conventional investors.

https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/silicium-energy

https://gigaom.com/2011/11/04/a-new-name-in-thermoelectrics-silicium-energy/
 

Offline romelec

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2016, 03:52:12 pm »
You told that it could generate 500µW on a cold windy day, but what is cold and windy for you ? 15°C and 20km/h or -30°C and 80km/h ?

What about summer, let's say 30°C and no wind ?
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #88 on: November 18, 2016, 04:31:49 pm »
Quote
No point in sharing our data, which I've offered to you in private. Your calculations are spot on. We look forward to your video!
That's quite fishy really. There is no point in NOT sharing measurement data.

I agree that proprietary information (schematics, mechanical design, firmware...) need not be shared, but a simple CSV file containing lots of measurements with body temperature, ambient temperature, outside conditions (humidity, pressure, what the person was doing etc.), total electric power generated by the device, total electric power consumed by the device (and the mode it is in and what is it doing) is not that much to ask. There is no reason to NOT share such data as once the device is available for purchase anyone can do the measurements anyway.

Why do you think that detailed environment related data is any less proprietary than design data? The figures you're asking for would take more time and effort to reproduce, if done diligently, than the rest of the design work put together. It's the data of what heat flow is available, for how long, under what circumstances etc. that is necessary to embark on a design of a system like this. It's rather like saying that you want Ford to publish the thermodynamics data on their new engine where General Motors can read it, while saying you quite understand that the blueprints need to stay confidential.

@matrixindustries:

Can i suggest you provide us with some headline numbers, the sort of things that I'd characterise as performance claims rather than design data. You've already offered two points as far as I can tell:
  • The watch generates more power than it consumes when worn (under unspecified conditions)
  • The best case (hard exercise, cold windy day) power production is 500uW

If you can add a few more realistic points on the power generation curve, and some power consumption figures, we might be on the way to the place where a "back of the cig packet" calculation can show whether this is going to work in most practical circumstances.

Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline JimRemington

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2016, 09:51:10 pm »
I have a better idea than TEG power: take one of those really nice mechanical watches that winds itself whenever your arm is moved, and replace the watch gears with a D.C. generator. There would likely be enough surplus energy to charge your cell phone battery at the same time!
« Last Edit: November 18, 2016, 11:39:30 pm by JimRemington »
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2016, 10:10:43 pm »
|O Your last comment is so stunningly inaccurate and exposes your ignorance. Please proceed!

Ignorant?
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/swra347a/swra347a.pdf
A Bluetooth module 24/7/365 takes about 80uW average for a connection 1/sec.
Your watch takes about 20uW, that's 100uW total.
Do the math for a CR2032 or bigger battery.

Your own guy admits it:

« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 12:26:53 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline Bud

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2016, 11:28:03 pm »
It's coming...


Try sex,
No need to show the process, just show the data.  :D
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Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2016, 12:42:13 am »
Video rendering now, 30 min long.
The lab experiment didn't work that great, basically got no extra power output over static. Must be that pesky autonomic nervous system shunting the blood out of my arms.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #93 on: November 19, 2016, 01:00:12 am »
Actually, it's really powered from the fully charged lithium ion battery when the customer gets it. The TEG just keeps it "topped up" if it's able to generate enough excess.
The exact same watch could have just used a 2032 coin cell (or bigger) and have gotten several years of use, even with Bluetooth LE enabled 24/7.
If you ripped the TEG out of it it would still last for a year or more.

I think based on Koen's post above, as well as this quote by matrixindustries

Quote
Also we chose to come out of stealth with a commercial product, but in the big picture, we see this tech going into smart sensors for factories and industry, smart logistics, perhaps medical devices like hearing aids. Longer term, this technology, we hope, will help increase fuel efficiency for power plants or automobiles, which we hope would be good for the environment.

That it's easy to make some guesses about what is going on.  They got funding 2.5 years back but it doesn't appear that they have brought in revenues yet.  I am sure there is quite a lot of pressure to make the transition from egghead ideas on paper to practical technologies that are commercially successful. 

Smart watches are hot right now, and they use so little power that putting a TEG on one with a battery will obscure the miniscule contribution the TEG produces - so the consumer will never know their wrist watch *isn't* running off their body heat.  And I seriously doubt they will show in the app how much daily power was used from the battery and was regenerated by the TEG.   I watched their video and re-read their campaign page and nowhere do they indicate that the watch will require substantial temperature differentials to work.  It's advertised as a green-type product that captures the waste energy of your body and runs forever on that.  That's not true.

Personally, I consider that a lie by omission and I think that's a really shitty way to treat your customers and a scummy way to advertise a product.  Some people seem to think it's OK to mislead consumers by giving an impression that is very different than reality while taking their money, but a lie of omission is still a lie.

Anyway, I don't think these people have any interest whatsoever in being in the watch business.  I am guessing it's just something to show to investors to indicate validity of the concept... "we sold $300k in 10 days" or whatever.  I think they do intend to make the watch and deliver, but they have to be really careful about it blowing up in their face... considering they've gotten millions in investment money, if they botch this or if customers get it and are unsatisfied, it could make it virtually impossible to get any future investment.  I think what they really want to do is get more funding to pursue their other goals as stated in their quote above... but I am sure there is an imperative to produce something, and for the reasons listed, a watch where the average consumer will never know that it doesn't actually deliver on the claims made was probably seen as a good choice.

And that's also the reason they don't want to give any numbers.  If you had something that worked, you'd be singing it from the highest rooftops.   

This will be an interesting project to keep an eye on.  I can see it going sideways, especially once people get these things and realize that it's essentially just a battery powered watch and the TEG isn't powering it at all.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2016, 01:01:53 am by Corporate666 »
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Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #94 on: November 19, 2016, 01:40:55 am »
The thing I don't get about Matrix is that they are PhD academic researchers. They got their PhD theses by defending their paper, defending their claims. Academics should be used to this.
Yet they now seems offended that people dare question the practicality of their claims?
Heck, we aren't even asking for error bars  ;D
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #95 on: November 19, 2016, 01:52:19 am »
but I am sure there is an imperative to produce something, and for the reasons listed, a watch where the average consumer will never know that it doesn't actually deliver on the claims made was probably seen as a good choice.
And that's also the reason they don't want to give any numbers.  If you had something that worked, you'd be singing it from the highest rooftops.   

It works, it's just as you say "the battery will obscure the miniscule contribution the TEG produces". And in that respect it's rather clever. People will look at that charging power meter and be amazed they are generating power for their watch (most/some of the time).

The bottom line is TEG's are absolutely pointless in watches. If, like they have done, design a super low power watch (and omit features that take more power), then the TEG is useless because a single coin cell battery could give you YEARS of use anyway, and they even admit this in one of the articles saying it will be two years life on the fully charged battery.
On the other hand if you design a fully featured smart watch with all the bells and whistles that chews more power, the TEG won't provide anywhere near enough power to compensate for what's lost, and it will need some other charging solution.
So the TEG is pointless either way.
 

Offline JimRemington

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #96 on: November 19, 2016, 02:07:57 am »
Quote
Yet they now seems offended that people dare question the practicality of their claims?
Others have already pointed out that Matrix will never admit this impracticality to their investors, so they aren't about to admit it to themselves or us.
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #97 on: November 19, 2016, 04:14:58 pm »
Well my assessment is that since:

1).  They didn't provide any Arrow contacts for FAE or Sales in their area for vetting (not proprietary and no risk) they must actually be full of crap.

2). Didn't share their issued patent number (I mentioned previously a request for the patent so we could "check it out") they must be full of crap.

Darn, I was really in their camp trying to give them a path to demonstrate credibility without risk.
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #98 on: November 19, 2016, 04:21:24 pm »
Dave, I’m not refusing, just giving it a lot of thought. You’re obviously a brilliant guy and I don’t want to get into a pissing match with you.

It’s hard to answer this question because how do I encapsulate the last five years of our lives, actually 13 years in my case, in a neat, tidied up answer to a complete stranger? Would a one sentence answer finally settle it? You’ve obviously already read the Engadget article, since you posted it earlier, that had the title, “The PowerWatch is a body heat-powered smartwatch that does very little.” This is our first generation smartwatch and we’re still learning how to improve it. Some people like it, and of course some don’t.

The PowerWatch generates more power than it consumes when it’s worn. But what happens when it’s taken off and left off for a long time? What do you do when you have enough room to add a 200 mAh battery? Do you choose a tiny supercap instead that barely supports the BLE TX, RX, syncing? 

Also we chose to come out of stealth with a commercial product, but in the big picture, we see this tech going into smart sensors for factories and industry, smart logistics, perhaps medical devices like hearing aids. Longer term, this technology, we hope, will help increase fuel efficiency for power plants or automobiles, which we hope would be good for the environment.

I guess what I’m trying to say is that we’re very passionate about thermoelectrics. The most inspiring photo ever captured in my opinion is “The Pale Blue Dot”, when Voyager 1 turned around and took a picture of Earth. Carl Sagan has a beautiful description of it. Voyager 1 is of course powered by a thermoelectric.

Directing this technology toward industrial sensors is a really good idea (people already doing this).  The nice thing here is the temp differentials are sometimes much higher. i.e. sensors mounting on engines, generators, presses, CNCs etc.  In buildings as well it's easier to get strong temp differentials on boilers, HVAC systems etc.

Starting with people is running before walking (dynamic, low and unpredictable temp differentials, etc, etc) so kudos for taking on the challenge :)
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: MATRIX PowerWatch - TEG powered smart watch
« Reply #99 on: November 19, 2016, 04:34:51 pm »
If there on the level the impression I am getting from reading Matrix Industries replies is that for some time they have been developing conceptual devices that are powered by means of waist energy harvesting, in this instance the waist energy is in the form of radiated heat.
The use of peltier type devices for generating electricity is not new, the challenge has always been what useful energy can be produced and how to efficiently make use of that energy. 

In fact there not the only company doing this, I had a discussion only few weeks ago with an individual who has had patients granted for applications employing harvesting waist energy in the form of heat.   

So how far for a reasonable cost can you push the energy harvesting capabilities of a peltier device, and just how efficient are the latest ultra-low energy integrated devices at using this energy. 

A comment that really stood out to me from Matrix is that the PowerWatch is intended to bring their development efforts out of the shadows. So in one sense the PowerWatch is a novelty but it is to prove that they can produce a compact telemetry device that can be powered by waist heat energy from the environment it is in.
Also up until this date how have they been funding there activities, are there already venture capitalists with a grip on any future pie to be had which limits approaching further conventional investors.

Crowd funding is another form of VC which by its nature is with risk and it is important to keep that in mind. What the crowd funding investor hopes to get is whatever the promise of reword will be for their level of investment. In this case a watch powered from energy that is radiated from your body in the form of heat.
By sourcing finance from crowd funding means that Matrix are not having to give up a stake in their business or any rights they own as they would have to do going through conventional finance sources.

Conventional finance sources may have considered there project to higher investment risk for the amount they would have to put in but with crowd funding that risk is divided, so an individual investor is not as exposed as a large single investor. So they may be more willing to take the risk.
Say somebody looks at this and think to themselves that it appeals to them and that they have a belief in this so there prepared to take a gamble and pledge there $139, and anticipate the reward of a working PowerWatch.

If all goes to plan with  IGG Matrix makes valuable income, successfully launches a product, boosts there profile, prove to existing investors that can deliver a working product, open doors to move ahead with producing products for industrial telemetry / medical applications and any other application they can apply the technology to.
For the IGG investor they get there shiny new PowerWatch.

On the other hand if it all goes horribly wrong then the reverse of the above will happen and the IGG and any other investors they have will be out of pocket.

Simple rule with gambling. Never bet with more than you can afford and are prepared to lose.

You are seriously misrepresenting the difference and fundamentals of venture capital, investment and crowd funding:

1). Crowd funding is in NO way an investment, no ownership or promise of future returns exists in Crowd Funding. 
2).  Regarding product presale crowdfunding campaigns: There is absolutely a claim and contract represented from the company "for a pledge you will get product X" This is a presale and customers have a legal claim for action to recoup their payment if product is not delivered, just like any other purchase protected by law, the FTC and Attorney General (in the USA).  Wording of the pledge terms would have to be different if it is meant to be a "maybe or we might deliver on our promise", such as "pledge $100 and IF we finish our project we will send you something" vs "if you pledge $100 you will get X"  Note that in the campaign specifically there is no disclaimer, indication of risk, simply assertion, schedule, and product presale.

Unfortunately when crowdfunding presales fail, there is often little recourse (company is rarely capitalize sufficiently to support a legal judgement).  Also, unless a class action is filed, it's not practical for 10,000 individuals who are out $100 to individually file claims against companies.  This is another reason why crowdfunding purchases are risk.  Not because failure to deliver is allowed or legal, but purely because the failure to deliver and legal recourse in impractical.  This leads to a seedy underbelly (particularly on indiegogo) for nasty scam products where companies can sit on the edge of pseudoscience and reality making claims for products that Apple and Samsung seem to have magically missed out on.

Note this post is NOT a dig or criticism of Matrix at all!
 


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