Author Topic: PC Manager | Take control of your computers  (Read 1965 times)

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Offline Snatek

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PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« on: December 13, 2019, 12:23:18 am »
Hi to all EEVBlog members,

We’ve launched a Kickstarter campaign that may be of interest to you. The project, named “PC Manager”, consists of a device that, once installed on a desktop computer, brings interesting remote bulk managing, energy saving and security features. The following are some of them:
  • Allows organizing computers by floor, department, section, or as desired, and controlling them all simultaneously from anywhere (via the internet).
  • It can help save on average $/€/£ 70 a year on energy costs per computer by scheduling their turn on/off, compared to keeping them on 24 h.
  • It notifies in case of power outage (or intentional power cord unplugging, which may prevent theft of the PC), or if the internet goes out.
  • Wi-Fi connection, without complicated network settings or security risks (e.g. opening ports on the router).
  • Automatic PC boot error detection and notification.
  • Computer freeze/crash detection and notification.
  • It has multiple built-in electronic safety features to prevent any damage to the PC even if incorrectly assembled.
  • It is built in the EU using electronic components from top global brands (e.g., Texas Instruments, Samsung, etc.).
  • It allows granting partial or total control of PC Manager’s functions to other specified users.
  • There are two models available for convenience: one with internal antenna and one with external antenna.
  • It can be easily installed and withstand assembly errors. It feeds directly from the PC’s power supply.
  • It can be controlled by the majority of internet browsing capable devices.

You can find more detailed info by clicking on the following links:

Kickstarter campaign: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/snatek/pc-manager
PC Manager’s website: https://www.pc-manager.net/en/

The campaign ends on 11 January.

If you would like further information or have any questions, you can post on this thread (or on Kickstarter project’s web page) and we’ll gladly answer you.

We gratefully thank you in advance for any action you can undertake to promote the PC Manager project.
 

Offline Ranayna

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2019, 09:18:18 am »
Hmm, interesting idea, but might I ask what your target audience is for this device?

My background: I work in a medium sized company in IT. I am not directly involved with PC support anymore, but once was. We have more than a thousand workstations, but most of them are not classical desktops anymore.

With that in mind, thoughts about this:

1: Power savings could easily be achieved by using wake on LAN. But even without it, disciplined users will already shut down their workstation anyway. And even if not, though I have not measured it, power consumption should already be reduced massively by employing sensible power plans in Windows. Assuming 100 Watts for an unused computer is not reasonable.
2: Reading through the description, I have to assume that your device is "always-on"? Does it work at all without internet?
3: How is the WiFi connection realized? Which bands and channels are supported? How does your supposed simple connection work? How much bandwidth is used? Think hundreds of devices here ;)
4: Error detection according to the beep codes sounds like a neat idea. But I have not seen (or rather heard  :P) a beeper on any modern corporate desktop for many years. DELL for example uses diagnostic LEDs since at least 15 years.
5: How does the Freeze/Crash detection and storage monitoring work? For that to work reliably I would think you need a driver of some kind. What operating systems will you support?
6: The device seems not applicable to laptops. And many desktops are being replaced by laptops.

Don't get me wrong. I applaud you for getting this far  :clap: Getting a viable product to this stage is an achievement.
But I wonder if you are not a couple of years to late, considering the state of the desktop market.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2019, 11:12:53 am »
Sell me on it versus other OOBM systems like IME / AMT. I can do all of that already via host ethernet interface.
 
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Offline Snatek

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2019, 12:32:09 pm »
Hi Ranayna,
Thanks for your comment I will try to answer all of your questions:

1. I just measured the active idle power consumption of three PCs from different generations (All with “Balanced” power plan). These are the results (measured 30 minutes after power-on, with no HDD activity):

CPU: Intel Core2 Quad Q9550
Chipset: Intel G41
Accessories: Nvidia GT 520 (passive refrigeration) graphics card.
Idle power consumption: 84.3 W

CPU:CPU: Intel Core i5-650
Chipset: Intel H55 Express
Accessories: Nvidia GTX 760 graphics card.
Idle power consumption: 112.3 W

CPU: Intel Core i9-9900K
Chipset: Intel Z390
Accessories: Nvidia RTX 2060 SUPER graphics card. 5x 3.5’’ HDD.
Idle power consumption: 115.8 W

In addition, Wake on LAN/WIFI implies disabling the motherboard energy saving features (at least on all motherboards I have seen), in comparison, PC Manager have a power consumption of less than 0.5 W. The device also adds some functions that WOL are not capable of, such: crash detection, errors detection, etc.

Fortunately, this also works for non-disciplined users ;).

2. Yes, the device is meant to keep it on continuously. It feeds from the computer’s standby power rail of the PSU. The remote functions are not available without Wi-Fi connection, but it can still act as a standard Front Panel’s LEDs and buttons (with log), and as all the inputs and outputs are reversible, it could be used on test assemblies, etc.

3. The Wi-Fi connection can be made using the Android app (The phone first connects to a network created by the device, and sends the Wi-Fi details via the app, so the device can connect to your Wi-Fi), or using a MicroSD card. It supports 2.4 GHz band (5 GHz band is not supported) in all standard Wi-Fi channels (limited by specific countries legislation).

4. You can check this function compatibility In the Kickstarter campaign or in PC Manager’s website (https://www.pc-manager.net/en/compatibility/). I cannot speak for HP, DELL and other branded PCs, as they barely follow any standard in this respect. But there is still a lot of motherboards (including new ones, like the Asus ROG Z390-F I have) that still support beep error codes.

5. This function works by installing a very simple program that performs an HDD read/write every “n” seconds, then the PC Manager device detects this signal (HDD LED). If the PC Manager does not detect this signal, then notifies you (or it can be programmed to restart the PC automatically). Only for Windows, at the moment, although it wouldn’t be hard to implement it for other operating systems.

6. The signals are probably compatible, but it wouldn’t be reasonable to mount it on a laptop. Probably you’ll have to invest thousands of € on a laptop to compare it with a € 600 desktop computer (even more with a proper desktop workstation), for that reason there are still a lot of users that prefers to work with desktop computers.

Yes, maybe the ideal would have been 5 years ago, but apparently there are still a lot of desktop computer sales (https://www.techspot.com/news/83094-pc-have-dead-now-but-somehow-alive-kicking.html ).

I hope to have answered all your questions. Thank you again for your comment.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 01:05:19 pm by Snatek »
 

Offline Snatek

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2019, 01:02:09 pm »
Sell me on it versus other OOBM systems like IME / AMT. I can do all of that already via host ethernet interface.

Hi bd139,

I wasn’t aware of this technology (probably the vast majority of desktop PC users also aren’t). Although for the information I could gather from the internet, seems quite complicated to implement (again, for the average user). I couldn’t find the software price (some comments say it is expensive). Also found several articles about vulnerabilities.

Thanks for your comment.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 01:05:39 pm by Snatek »
 

Offline Ranayna

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2019, 01:31:36 pm »
Thank you for the fast reply.

Regarding point 1: One aspect I missed, especially regarding user that do not shutdown: Those users will also keep files open. So, what will happen then? The shutdown will be interrupted by the windows "Please close your files" dialog. I do not know if that has a timeout and will shutdown anyway after some time, but if the users sees that in the morning and cancels the shutdown, the system will likely be in an inconsistent state due to background programs that have already been stopped. And if you force the shutdown by "holding down" the button, users will lose files.
Regarding a sensible power plan: I rather meant something like sending the machine to sleep on idle after maybe an hour.

Regarding point 2: So I understand that the device will need a constant internet connection, even if the App runs on a mobile phone in the same network? What provisions do you have for the case of you shutting down the servers?

I could maybe imagine using something like this, but only one the conditions that it works fully internally, and has management available as a windows program that can run on a server.
And that only if for whatever reasons I have machines that have no AMT / IME available.

Do you have any plans of going open source? That would, In my opinion greatly increase appeal.

 
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Offline bd139

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2019, 01:45:37 pm »
Sell me on it versus other OOBM systems like IME / AMT. I can do all of that already via host ethernet interface.

Hi bd139,

I wasn’t aware of this technology (probably the vast majority of desktop PC users also aren’t). Although for the information I could gather from the internet, seems quite complicated to implement (again, for the average user). I couldn’t find the software price (some comments say it is expensive). Also found several articles about vulnerabilities.

Thanks for your comment.

We mostly are in the IT sector. You turn the flag on in the BIOS then run IPMIview which is dead simple. The software is free.

https://www.supermicro.com/en/solutions/management-software/ipmi-utilities

The average desktop user probably doesn't need or care for it.
 
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Offline Snatek

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2019, 02:43:44 pm »
Thank you for the fast reply.

Regarding point 1: One aspect I missed, especially regarding user that do not shutdown: Those users will also keep files open. So, what will happen then? The shutdown will be interrupted by the windows "Please close your files" dialog. I do not know if that has a timeout and will shutdown anyway after some time, but if the users sees that in the morning and cancels the shutdown, the system will likely be in an inconsistent state due to background programs that have already been stopped. And if you force the shutdown by "holding down" the button, users will lose files.
Regarding a sensible power plan: I rather meant something like sending the machine to sleep on idle after maybe an hour.

Regarding point 2: So I understand that the device will need a constant internet connection, even if the App runs on a mobile phone in the same network? What provisions do you have for the case of you shutting down the servers?

I could maybe imagine using something like this, but only one the conditions that it works fully internally, and has management available as a windows program that can run on a server.
And that only if for whatever reasons I have machines that have no AMT / IME available.

Do you have any plans of going open source? That would, In my opinion greatly increase appeal.

1. Habitually (for what I have seen) the users who don’t turn off their computers don’t do it because they don’t want to wait for the computer to turn on, and ignore the energy costs of doing this. Others because their PC is slow and don’t want to be bothered by the maintenance task that the computer automatically performs (Updates, virus scanning, HDD defragmentation, backups, etc.), hopping they will be made when they are not using the PC.
I would probably reprimand a worker that doesn’t save his work before leaving, but for that type of user you describe I suppose the best option could be to configure the power button as sleep button on windows, so the unsaved work remains but with much less power consumption.

2. Yes, the device (and the App) needs to be connected to the internet to use all it’s functions. If the project gets funded, keeping the PC Manager host service working over the years will not be a problem, as the hosting maintenance is not very expensive. The problem with working on LAN is that the configuration of each device will probably be more complicated (must input every device’s IP address, and it must to be fixed, etc.). If this is a general concern, I suppose we can add a feature that allows it to work on LAN in the future, for the advanced users.

I’ve heard various cases of Chinese products releasing even before the Kickstarter campaign fulfillment, and after putting lots of work in this project I don’t want to take the risk. Also, going open source will probably imply security risks for the users.

Thanks.
 

Offline Snatek

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2019, 02:59:13 pm »
Sell me on it versus other OOBM systems like IME / AMT. I can do all of that already via host ethernet interface.

Hi bd139,

I wasn’t aware of this technology (probably the vast majority of desktop PC users also aren’t). Although for the information I could gather from the internet, seems quite complicated to implement (again, for the average user). I couldn’t find the software price (some comments say it is expensive). Also found several articles about vulnerabilities.

Thanks for your comment.

We mostly are in the IT sector. You turn the flag on in the BIOS then run IPMIview which is dead simple. The software is free.

https://www.supermicro.com/en/solutions/management-software/ipmi-utilities

The average desktop user probably doesn't need or care for it.

Although PC Manager may be compatible with some servers, the product is mainly designed for standard desktop computers. This seems to be a Supermicro’s specific thing, if you have various brands of servers, do you have to use one specific software for each brand? Or is there a software that supports all brands of servers? (Just curious, never worked with servers).

You are probably right, but I want to give a chance to users and small companies, for which this you are describing is very advanced, to use a more user-friendly software.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 03:08:02 pm by Snatek »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2019, 03:12:01 pm »
It works with desktop chipsets as well. Supermicro just provide a nice client for it.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2019, 06:41:40 pm »
This device looks very nice, but how does it compare to the $13 (inc shipping) one on Aliexpress?

eWeLink Mini PCI-e Desktop PC Remote Control Switch

Which raises a question: inside a metal PC case, how does yours get a WiFi signal?
 
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Offline Snatek

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2019, 12:50:22 am »
This device looks very nice, but how does it compare to the $13 (inc shipping) one on Aliexpress?

eWeLink Mini PCI-e Desktop PC Remote Control Switch

Which raises a question: inside a metal PC case, how does yours get a WiFi signal?

Hi dunkemhigh,

Thanks for your comment.

The major problem I see with that device is the lack of shielding of the Wi-Fi controller section of the PCB (PC Manager is properly shielded), which may negatively interfere with the computer’s high-speed signals.

Of course, it’s much cheaper, but that will almost certainly imply lower quality on design, production and components, lack of testing, etc. (as in the case of the shielding), which may put in risk your computer and its data.

Obviating these problems, PC Manager has some additional features over that device:
  • It doesn’t occupy a PCIe slot.
  • You don’t have to choose between “power” or “reset” signals, as it does support both connections.
  • As PC Manager uses its own specifically designed software, it will probably support more features than that device’s app, which apparently, it’s universal to a wide range of IoT devices.
  • Automatic PC boot error detection and notification.
  • Computer freeze/crash detection and notification.
  • It has multiple built-in electronic safety features to prevent any damage to the PC even if incorrectly assembled.
  • It is built in the EU using electronic components from top global brands (e.g., Texas Instruments, Samsung, etc.).
  • It allows granting partial or total control of PC Manager’s functions to other specified users.


In reference with the Wi-Fi signal inside the PC case, there are two PC Manager versions:
  • With internal antenna: for off the case testing and open-frame assemblies, like rigs, etc., without messing with additional cables or the antenna position.
  • With external antenna: for most PC types, as the metallic case of the computer blocks the Wi-Fi signal. The antenna is so small that it can be easily hidden inside the PC’s front trim.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 12:52:25 am by Snatek »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2019, 01:25:18 am »
The major problem I see with that device is the lack of shielding of the Wi-Fi controller section of the PCB (PC Manager is properly shielded), which may negatively interfere with the computer’s high-speed signals.
It's not a problem and it's not real that it will affect anything within a PC.
Quote
It doesn’t occupy a PCIe slot.
As of your device, it's a dangling box which is impossible to properly fix/attach within PC.
Quote
The antenna is so small that it can be easily hidden inside the PC’s front trim.
Another dangling thing.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 01:32:21 am by wraper »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2019, 01:40:06 am »
Even if not occupying any slots, I would simply make standard bracket with pcb attached and antenna coming straight out of PCB into back of the case. No case needed, no coax routing through PC and dangling antenna somewhere in front, no 2 versions of the device needed. No strapping with zip ties, everything held by that bracket.
 

Offline rs20

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2019, 02:16:22 am »
Also, going open source will probably imply security risks for the users.

Aha, you're going for the old 'security through obscurity' route, are you? That's a red flag if ever I saw one.
 
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Offline Monkeh

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2019, 04:32:02 am »
Also, going open source will probably imply security risks for the users.

No, writing bad code will.
 
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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2019, 09:17:27 am »
Quote
Obviating these problems, PC Manager has some additional features over that device:

Thanks for the detailed reply.

As a personal issue, I would prefer the ability not to have some custom code required for something to work since it invariably stops working when the OS changes (or even just gets updated). If yours doesn't already allow for that perhaps a mode where it Just Works in a limited way would be useful.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2019, 10:06:25 am »
Also, going open source will probably imply security risks for the users.

Aha, you're going for the old 'security through obscurity' route, are you? That's a red flag if ever I saw one.

LMAO. Yep that’s end of the pitch for me. Not the fact that’s it’s closed source but the misunderstanding of fundamental security idioms.
 
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Offline madires

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  • A qualified hobbyist ;)
 

Offline bd139

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2019, 12:02:18 pm »
Already pointed that out above.

I don’t understand the demand or market for the product. Home users and small businesses don’t care and corporate users already have solutions.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2019, 12:16:37 pm »
Do I understand this correctly that the PC manager is an internet connected gizmo that will allow remote control of the computer - over the internet, using a proprietary service ran by your company? And you want to sell this to companies as a somehow good idea? Did you consider what will happen if someone hacks your service (which is pretty certain to happen, especially given your security by obscurity approach)? Not only could someone instantly disable/crash a load of computers somewhere but if the devices have insecure firmware (very likely), they will act as a wonderful vector into the company's network, bypassing the usual access controls (otherwise they wouldn't be able to do their job).

Not only is this a solution looking for a problem (home users won't care and pros will frogmarch anyone plugging a gizmo like this into their office computer out of the door), it is also asking to get hacked for anyone foolish enough to install this.

Engineering isn't only whether something can be done but also whether it should be.
 

Offline Snatek

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2019, 12:30:33 pm »
The major problem I see with that device is the lack of shielding of the Wi-Fi controller section of the PCB (PC Manager is properly shielded), which may negatively interfere with the computer’s high-speed signals.
It's not a problem and it's not real that it will affect anything within a PC.
Quote
It doesn’t occupy a PCIe slot.
As of your device, it's a dangling box which is impossible to properly fix/attach within PC.
Quote
The antenna is so small that it can be easily hidden inside the PC’s front trim.
Another dangling thing.


I am not an expert on RF/EMI, but if you do a quick search on Google or Amazon for a Wi-Fi PCIe card (or any other kind of Wi-Fi module), you will find that the vast majority of cards (even the cheap ones) have a metal shield over the Wi-Fi section. If the EMI isn’t a concern in this case, why do the majority of manufacturers include it? Also, there is a reason why the computer cases are usually made of steel, instead of plastic, wood or other cheap materials.

In the worst case, there would be a 500 mW and 2.4 GHz signal radiated at a few millimeters of a various GHz low voltage signals (some signals are differential paired, but others aren’t).

Even if not occupying any slots, I would simply make standard bracket with pcb attached and antenna coming straight out of PCB into back of the case. No case needed, no coax routing through PC and dangling antenna somewhere in front, no 2 versions of the device needed. No strapping with zip ties, everything held by that bracket.

We include Zip ties to fix the PC Manager unit and its antenna (with its small footprint, less than a standard credit card, it is easily fixable even in very small HTPC cases. I had one PC Manager running on one of those for the last 5 months and nothing is dangling nor obstructing anything).

If I go with PCI bracket, then the product wouldn’t support open-air cases or testing rigs. Also, instead of two antenna models, I will have to include two different size PCI brackets (for different case sizes).

Also, going open source will probably imply security risks for the users.

Aha, you're going for the old 'security through obscurity' route, are you? That's a red flag if ever I saw one.

I never said that was the main reason. The main reason is that I don want to put my work, effort and money on hands of a low-quality clone factory in China (in my opinion, that would be a shot in the foot). But is undeniable that making public every single detail of the hardware and software of any product with internet access would make that product more hacker-friendly, independently of the programing quality.
However, if for a strange reason I stop supporting PC Manager service (Which I probably won’t, because once developed, is very simple and cheap o maintain it), I would have no problem to make Open Source every data I ever had of it.

Quote
Obviating these problems, PC Manager has some additional features over that device:

Thanks for the detailed reply.

As a personal issue, I would prefer the ability not to have some custom code required for something to work since it invariably stops working when the OS changes (or even just gets updated). If yours doesn't already allow for that perhaps a mode where it Just Works in a limited way would be useful.

As other users were concerned on this, I will add support to PC Manager to work only on LAN for advanced users, knowing that it would be necessary to individually configure every PC Manager’s IP addresses as fixed (or bind its MAC to an IP address on the router’s configuration).
I will add it to the Kickstarter campaign in the following days.

Already pointed that out above.

I don’t understand the demand or market for the product. Home users and small businesses don’t care and corporate users already have solutions.

That is your opinion, not necessarily a fact. Do you think a small company with 10 computers will take the time/effort to implement AMT/IPMI, etc.? but at the same time, that company may be interested in using something simple to use with similar capabilities.


Thanks to all.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2019, 12:32:43 pm »
I worked with hundreds of small businesses. I’ve run small businesses. This isn’t even on the roadmap until you get to 200 seats+
 

Offline wraper

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2019, 12:43:39 pm »
In the worst case, there would be a 500 mW and 2.4 GHz signal radiated at a few millimeters of a various GHz low voltage signals (some signals are differential paired, but others aren’t).
You are not allowed to go above 100mW for 2.4 GHz band in most regions. And generally wifi devices don't go above that. Also unless there is something horribly wrong with device, most of power will go into antenna outside the PC.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 12:47:54 pm by wraper »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: PC Manager | Take control of your computers
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2019, 12:48:37 pm »
Good point. Most of the antennas provide some gain so the ERP is slightly higher which is what you see in the marketing but it is 100mW at the antenna feed.
 


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