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Products => Crowd Funded Projects => Topic started by: kindiana on February 27, 2015, 09:42:31 pm

Title: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: kindiana on February 27, 2015, 09:42:31 pm
Here is an improvement on the age old stripboard or perfboard, it allows two dimensional connections with only small solder bridge connections, an kickstarter campaign will be up soon but I want to get your opinions first. Constructive criticism, bashing and disapproval allowed.
Images:
http://imgur.com/a/GpXoO (http://imgur.com/a/GpXoO)
Title: Re: Perf+
Post by: Lightages on February 27, 2015, 09:52:17 pm
I am sorry, but I don't see that much improvement over normal perfboard with single pads or with strips.
Title: Re: Perf+
Post by: Richard Crowley on February 27, 2015, 09:56:31 pm
I rather like it.  I would rather use that vs. the traditoinal (pad per hole) perf or (strip) vero boards. It is somewhat the best of both worlds.

I would prefer that the strips be centrally located between the holes. To make it less accidental that you would make a connection,
and also to allow connection from either side.
Title: Re: Perf+
Post by: kindiana on February 27, 2015, 10:07:22 pm
I am sorry, but I don't see that much improvement over normal perfboard with single pads or with strips.
It allows you to route an connection between any two points while only using a small amount of solder
e.g. red = solder
http://imgur.com/i12UoOR (http://imgur.com/i12UoOR)
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: electr_peter on February 27, 2015, 10:29:48 pm
I think it could be a good idea. Are the lines in the centre between the holes? It looks as if lines are almost touching holes. Also, if you are going in this direction, why not add small strip lines in perpendicular direction as well? (full vertical lines and dashed horizontal lines)

I don't like pad per hole boards because I need to add massive amounts of solder or add wire for connections, it gets messy. Strip lines are better because you can use strip lines as bus bars and easily cut out unneeded parts.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: kindiana on February 27, 2015, 10:34:57 pm
I think it could be a good idea. Are the lines in the centre between the holes? It looks as if lines are almost touching holes. Also, if you are going in this direction, why not add small strip lines in perpendicular direction as well? (full vertical lines and dashed horizontal lines)

I don't like pad per hole boards because I need to add massive amounts of solder or add wire for connections, it gets messy. Strip lines are better because you can use strip lines as bus bars and easily cut out unneeded parts.
There are vertical lines in the back so you can just flip it over because the holes are plated through so it connects both sides. The lines are 8 mills(0.2mm) off the  holes, within tolerance to the fabs I'm using.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: Pillager on February 27, 2015, 11:07:22 pm
I've been working on something similar, still haven't got it just right. Wish you the best of luck!  :-+
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: tggzzz on February 27, 2015, 11:30:41 pm
You need to define the "value proposition" clearly and succinctly. I will spend 30 seconds determining whether to continue looking at your product.

The value proposition is "I suggest <X>. If you follow my suggestion, then you will get benefits <B>, will loose <L>, and <U> will remain unchanged".
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: kindiana on February 28, 2015, 12:07:25 am
You need to define the "value proposition" clearly and succinctly. I will spend 30 seconds determining whether to continue looking at your product.

The value proposition is "I suggest <X>. If you follow my suggestion, then you will get benefits <B>, will loose <L>, and <U> will remain unchanged".
Thanks for the tips, I'll keep that in mind when I am writing for the Kickstarter
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: edavid on February 28, 2015, 01:10:03 am
I think it would require too much time-consuming board flipping to be practical.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: SL4P on February 28, 2015, 05:36:55 am
I quite like the idea, but perhaps some shaping of the pads - maybe one side shaped to X-busses, and the other to Y busses...

Also some way to incorporate SMD pitched components on main board - or daughter 'conversion' boards with solder mask - so they can be dropped flush to the carrier 'buss' board.

My mind is racing, and I can see a few ways to make this work really nicely.
Image is just one part of the idea I'm suggesting... works top & bottom copper, with rotated 90-degrees for other side of the board as mentioned.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: kindiana on February 28, 2015, 06:11:06 am
I quite like the idea, but perhaps some shaping of the pads - maybe one side shaped to X-busses, and the other to Y busses...

Also some way to incorporate SMD pitched components on main board - or daughter 'conversion' boards with solder mask - so they can be dropped flush to the carrier 'buss' board.

My mind is racing, and I can see a few ways to make this work really nicely.
Image is just one part of the idea I'm suggesting... works top & bottom copper, with rotated 90-degrees for other side of the board as mentioned.

I quite like your SMD component idea, although the pad shapes looks like the bottom should be rotated 180 degrees so there will be one rail per row of pads, here is my original pad design
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: SL4P on February 28, 2015, 06:16:14 am
Yes - in fact. I was suggesting both top & bottom 'extensions' (to meet either or both interleaved X busses...)
--- and identical (rotated 90 deg) on the other side of PCB to match the Y busses.
Extend the copper half-way - not just mask the solder mask - so solder bridges are easy and robust (no need to wick across to the curved edge of the ring).

Sorry quick scrappy sketch wasn't all that great.
SMD 'slices' would be really useful - and maybe other odd footprints.

I have LOTs of spare time, so can chat offline for a whole 'system' - which I reckon could have some legs...
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: dunkemhigh on February 28, 2015, 11:06:20 am
Interesting idea, but IME the hard work with stripboard is not making solder bridges - hell, I get those for free! - but cutting the strips. These boards make neat connections, but you still need to cut the strips (and now on both sides). Some way of dealing with that would be really cool, IMO.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: SL4P on February 28, 2015, 12:20:46 pm
Another thought - running two (very thin) busses in each gap could be nice.
Combine them as a single buss if needed, or use independently for data or supply pins on either side... it needs a little more design with slightly smaller rings, and tiny lay-bys on the bus tracks (with solder mask between the buss lay-bys) to help with solderability...
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: donotdespisethesnake on February 28, 2015, 01:26:15 pm
I think it would require too much time-consuming board flipping to be practical.

+1

And after a few connections I think I would quickly lose track of what is connected to what.

I would put the bus strips into groups of 5 to minimize need for bridging and track cutting.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: rastro on February 28, 2015, 03:53:29 pm
I think it would require too much time-consuming board flipping to be practical.
...
And after a few connections I think I would quickly lose track of what is connected to what.
...
These are great prototyping PCB ideas.  It also seems like there needs to be an application for circuit layout to keep track of the "nodes" and parts placement. 
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: sunnyhighway on February 28, 2015, 04:00:44 pm
I like the idea. But why not go for dual layer instead of double sided?
Much easier to keep track of your connections.

As a downside it will be more challenging to cut tracks.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: Neganur on February 28, 2015, 06:48:06 pm
Biting my tongue here, but you're supposed to use real wire on those perf boards not just smear solder across two pads.

I'd rather see two-sided normal perf board with round pads.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: kindiana on February 28, 2015, 08:04:53 pm
Another thought - running two (very thin) busses in each gap could be nice.
Combine them as a single buss if needed, or use independently for data or supply pins on either side... it needs a little more design with slightly smaller rings, and tiny lay-bys on the bus tracks (with solder mask between the buss lay-bys) to help with solderability...
The problem with running two strips is that you need to separate them by at least the tolerance of the pcb fab, and have reasonable width for the tracks for current carrying capacity, so you quickly run out of the couple millimeters between the holes.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: ivan747 on March 01, 2015, 03:01:56 am
You could patent this. Just saying.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: SL4P on March 01, 2015, 03:34:19 am
Biting my tongue here, but you're supposed to use real wire on those perf boards not just smear solder across two pads.

I'd rather see two-sided normal perf board with round pads.
And you can if you want to.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: matseng on March 01, 2015, 04:41:38 am
A few years back I saw this pcb that is the opposite of this idea - instead of make the tracks easy to cut they made it easy to make controlled solder bridges.  I kinda like the idea, but I've never tried it myself.

http://www.elecfreaks.com/2362.html (http://www.elecfreaks.com/2362.html)

(http://www.elecfreaks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/10.jpg)
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: SL4P on March 01, 2015, 04:44:06 am
Nice lateral thinking...  X busses on one side, Y busses on the other
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: tggzzz on March 01, 2015, 09:27:58 am
You could patent this. Just saying.
Not any more, he couldn't. It has been disclosed by publication.

OTOH nobody else could patent it and prevent him from making it himself.

Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: JuKu on March 01, 2015, 10:49:15 am
You could patent this. Just saying.
Not any more, he couldn't. It has been disclosed by publication.

OTOH nobody else could patent it and prevent him from making it himself.
Depends on the country. In US, you can publish and still file a patent application up to a year later. But I doubt any perfboard innovation could make enough money to justify the patent costs.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: Simon on July 18, 2015, 10:35:42 pm
A few years back I saw this pcb that is the opposite of this idea - instead of make the tracks easy to cut they made it easy to make controlled solder bridges.  I kinda like the idea, but I've never tried it myself.

http://www.elecfreaks.com/2362.html (http://www.elecfreaks.com/2362.html)

(http://www.elecfreaks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/10.jpg)

I quite like that, tempted to knock a load out myself. I hate standard veroboard, having to do wires and tracks not cutting properly and cusing problems. I soon loose track of what I am doing and have connected already. I'm tempted to have a load of these knocked out if anything for myself unless i can buy them. I seem to keep getting people asking for one off projects and veroboard is hard to make a good design on first time round.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: purfield on July 19, 2015, 02:40:52 pm
Nope.  You can file a provisional a year before a patent application, but you can't do a provisional after public disclosure.

You could patent this. Just saying.
Not any more, he couldn't. It has been disclosed by publication.

OTOH nobody else could patent it and prevent him from making it himself.
Depends on the country. In US, you can publish and still file a patent application up to a year later. But I doubt any perfboard innovation could make enough money to justify the patent costs.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: Simon on July 19, 2015, 02:48:17 pm
I'm sure there are variations on the theme. What happens if someone designs a slightly different pad, is the pad design or concept patented ?
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: dunkemhigh on July 19, 2015, 06:00:55 pm
Quote
is the pad design or concept patented

Depends on the claims (and only on the claims). If you claimed the specific pattern then some other pattern would be OK. If you claim the principle (i.e. pads joined with tracks with 0.1mm gaps) then that would cover any pattern with 0.1mm gaps. The more general your claim the harder it is get it accepted, and it is very easy indeed to make a claim with a bunch of holes anyone can drive a truck through. Thus a patent agent is usually good value for money if you're serious about a patent.

OTOH, you might just want to be able to say "my patented product" and not give a toss if anyone else rips it off - they won't be able to claim their knock-off is patented (unless they think up their own one). In such a case, a patent agent is wasted money, as may be the patent (depends what it's worth to your ego).

In this case, I would think that there is plenty of prior art to make a reasonably generalised claim impractical. But you could probably get quite specific and acquire patent status that way. Or, if it's just for a kickstarter project (i.e. the sales period is limited and not long term), shove in any old rubbish and say it's "patent pending". By the time it's rejected you'll either have your money or given up and be on a different scam :)

Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: Simon on July 19, 2015, 06:30:13 pm
Oh I'm not interested in patenting it jut getting some made for myself and see how i get on with them. I've just done a design and will start getting manufacturing pricing for a small batch.

I was wondering if someone did patent it could they patent the concept or would they be limited to their specific pad design.
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: ataradov on July 19, 2015, 07:55:14 pm
You can patent absolutely anything, just be prepared to defend yourself in case if someone disagrees. At least USPTO seems to grant most of the filed applications.

The thing that really matters in the patent is the last part where all the claims are enumerated, if you mention a specific pad design, then this patent will cover only that design. But what usually happens is that patent mentions a specific design and the rest of the claims  are just variations on the first one, as many as you can think of.

The good news is that you are allowed to manufacture patented stuff for your own use (not for sale).
Title: Re: Perf+: an improvement on perfboards and Veroboards
Post by: kindiana on July 22, 2015, 12:01:33 pm
If you missed out on the kickstarter and would like to buy some:

The Perf+ Store is now open at the-perf-shop.myshopify.com.
All the items are stocked and ready for shipping.