PonoMusic player by Neil Young

[TMM]

This is anew way of both listning, buying and you get accsess TO THE MASTERTAPES IN FULL RESOLUTION.
Not CD quality.. full resolution master tapes..

http://www.dansdata.com/gz143.htm
High bit rate and sample depth are used in recording studios for the same reason photo editors use 48-bit colour and very high resolution instead of 24-bit colour and image dimensions the same as the final target. The larger format doesn't actually sound or look any better than the final - actually, works in the editing progress generally look and sound a lot worse than the final product, which is kind of the idea. But extra resolution and depth gives a bigger range for processing and correction without running out of resolution and creating odd artifacts.

Look for a 24bit color depth TIFF picture and compare to a high quality JPEG render of it (high quality MP3 analog, lossy) or even BMP/PNG (FLAC, lossless). I think you'll like the later two far more...

That's not a fair comparison because 24bit images are comprised of 8bit colour channels and usually have a good dynamic range. If you mess with the LSBs you're going to notice something.
Most music recordings on the other hand are no where near the 16bit noise floor to start with so if you discard a few LSBs here and there it's unlikely that anyone will notice. You have to have very high end gear to even listen with 16bits of effective accuracy.

I'm yet to meet a person who can reliably discern a difference between a 320Kbps MP3 (LAME encoder) and a 1411Kbps CD/FLAC/WAV file. That's a 4.4:1 compression ratio. If you compress an image 4.4:1 it will be noticeable even on a very average consumer spec monitor.

[tvtech]

Hi Guys

As of today 13 March 2014 @17H00 South African time Pono is sitting at 7,482 backers and $2,437,137 raised out of $800,000 goal with still 33 days to go 

Regards
tvtech

[tjaeger]

I'm yet to meet a person who can reliably discern a difference between a 320Kbps MP3 (LAME encoder) and a 1411Kbps CD/FLAC/WAV file. That's a 4.4:1 compression ratio. If you compress an image 4.4:1 it will be noticeable even on a very average consumer spec monitor.

Easy.  At least it used to be, I don't know if I could still do it and have no desire to find out.  This was rock music, not some contrived sample to bring out compression artifacts.  On a Sennheiser HD600.

Code: [Select]

foo_abx 1.3.1 report
foobar2000 v0.9.4.2
2007/05/22 18:24:46

File A: C:\...\abx\orig.wav
File B: C:\...\abx\insane.mp3

18:24:46 : Test started.
18:25:35 : 01/01  50.0%
18:25:45 : 02/02  25.0%
18:25:58 : 03/03  12.5%
18:26:08 : 04/04  6.3%
18:26:16 : 05/05  3.1%
18:26:25 : 06/06  1.6%
18:26:33 : 07/07  0.8%
18:26:48 : 08/08  0.4%
18:26:57 : 09/09  0.2%
18:27:04 : 10/10  0.1%
18:27:07 : Test finished.

 ----------
Total: 10/10 (0.1%)


[tvtech]

Hi Guys

Pono is set to break KS records...8,020 and  $2,608,020 so far.....early days yet....another 33 days to go.

All the people donating to Pono surely cannot be tone deaf or hard of hearing........I can just imagine the calls to the Factory in China where all all Manufacturing will take place......gear up NOW...we are already overwhelmed by the response"...

This is the very best thing I have seen in about 40 Years of dedication to music. If I have my little way..then Fleetwood Mac would join and be part of this.

The album " Rumours" comes to mind.

This can only get better and better.

Regards,
tvtech

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Just picked out a couple of points from the blurb.

All circuitry is zero-feedback. Feedback can only correct an error after it has occurred, which means that it can never correct for all errors.

Zero Feedback Wonder how they do that? Might make it hard to control the volume.

By using proprietary ultra-linear circuitry with wide bandwidth and low output impedance, there is no need for unnatural sounding feedback.

Proprietry ultra linear circuitry, sounds like something they should be hiding not advertising. If I wanted proprietry I would get an IPod, Apple are the experts there.

[linux-works]

By using proprietary ultra-linear circuitry with wide bandwidth and low output impedance, there is no need for unnatural sounding feedback.

Proprietry ultra linear circuitry, sounds like something they should be hiding not advertising. If I wanted proprietry I would get an IPod, Apple are the experts there.

playing devil's advocate, its conceivable that you can have a circuit that gives a linear response and is a new approach (maybe using dsp or other hybrid methods).  who knows.  but to put blame on a design because its 'proprietary' does not mean anything bad, per se.  lots of amp and dac designs are 'proprietary', which means that someone came up with a novel approach.  that's ALL it means.  why read more into it than that?

apple (etc) are 100% not relevant here.  why muddy the waters, so to speak?

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

I guess I'm thinking open source hardware and software would be good.
That's all, not an uncommon desire.

[linux-works]

if its open source hardware, its probably cpu-based playback.  that could be good since those are the only real solutions to true gapless playback on ALL mp3's (not just the 'treated' mp3's that have magic in the headers to describe the real endpoint in the last bufferful of data).

for portable use, I really can't understand why you'd need 'the best' audio playback.  if you are at a desk, you can use slightly larger players and even portable hard drives.  if you are truly on the go, your ambient noise level is probably going to mask any high end sound benefit.

once smart phones came on the scene, dedicated music players kind of died, sales-wise.  almost the same for cameras; smart phones are killing portable LSD camera sales (lsd = 'little silver digital', LOL).

[BravoV]

All circuitry is zero-feedback. Feedback can only correct an error after it has occurred, which means that it can never correct for all errors.

Zero Feedback Wonder how they do that? Might make it hard to control the volume.

Not an electronics expert here, I mean in term of electronic circuit design's analogy, isn't that like driving a car but totally blind folded ?    cmiiw

[linux-works]

its very very common to use negative feedback (like on the tee shirt, lol) to control amps.  you can extend the feedback loop to include buffers, too (so that you have voltage gain, first, and then current gain after).

but, its also possible to have topologies that do not have any feedback at all.  they are harder to keep the distortion low but they have no 'speed' issues since they don't depend on a control mechanism to keep them in check.

I have no problems with feedback based amp topologies.  it all depends on how well the concept is executed and both non-fb as well as fb designs can work well.

[elCap]

This is great! Thanks for sharing.
I will definitely back this project. Not so much for the player, but for the musicians that are doing this to improve the quality of music reproduction. I hate the loudness of many albums these days, the compressed dynamics, clipping and other carp. Or the new super duper remastered release of an old classic that just sounds terrible. I really hope real music is back!

One problem might be that I have to buy all my albums once again.. But if Pono delivers the music quality I'm after, I'm OK with that.

Then I must say that it's too bad that every time a music product topic starts here at EEVblog there is always talks about Audiophoolery or whatever. I wonder if any of these people ever have tried listen to real audio gear? Tried to do some blind A/B tests? It is not that hard, and can be quite fascinating. Yes, I consider myself an audiophile. I can hear the difference between different power cords any day of the week, blind test, random or whatever. Piece of cake. But to be able to do that, you have to train, know what you want to get out of the music.

[Rigby]

I can hear the difference between different power cords any day of the week, blind test, random or whatever. Piece of cake.

I'd like to see some proof of that.  Enough that it's clear they aren't lucky guesses.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

I can hear the difference between different power cords any day of the week, blind test, random or whatever.

Nonsense.

If you said 'power chords' that would be different.

[Macbeth]

Then I must say that it's too bad that every time a music product topic starts here at EEVblog there is always talks about Audiophoolery or whatever. I wonder if any of these people ever have tried listen to real audio gear? Tried to do some blind A/B tests? It is not that hard, and can be quite fascinating. Yes, I consider myself an audiophile. I can hear the difference between different power cords any day of the week, blind test, random or whatever. Piece of cake. But to be able to do that, you have to train, know what you want to get out of the music.

Scientific testing, especially with extraordinary claims like perfectly up to spec cheap IEC mains power cables are going to produce a more accurate sound reproduction (especially within the realms of human hearing). A single blind study with your audiophool friends just doesn't cut it. You need a double blind test. The JREF will actually award you $1,000,000 USD if your claims and YOUR agreed double blind protocol are statistically valid. You do not have to even claim to know how your claim works, just prove it does, and $1,000,000 is yours! Slight caveat - there are so many cranks and crackpots going for the challenge that don't even know how to word an application form, that potential claimants should at least have some media exposure of their claims (or you push your vendor to prove in your case?)

[linux-works]

you know, if an IEC power cord change makes a difference, I would actually be blaming the power supply subsystem.  its actually hard to imagine any power supply being so bad that an input cord would actually matter, assuming no gross errors and all cords are at least to local code standard.

[SeanB]

Only thing I will add to this is that I can hear the difference between MP3 at 128k and 192k, so all my MP3 recordings are at 320k. Most of the music I have is in Ogg though at the highest bit rate it supports. That way I can always go down, and get a usable copy. Thogh the originals in most cases are old LP records and a good number of 78RPM records that are in no way high fidelity. There I have a faithful copy of the original rumble, noise and scratches. Because I had no player capable of playing the 16 2/3 RPM records they had a little resampling done to them to get the time right.

As to playback, you have a choice of filters, 20kHz brick wall with really poor impulse response ( destroys transients like drums, piano and any other percussive instrument) or a very limited high frequency response that starts at 10kHzand rolls off at audible frequencies. A good reason for oversampling is to make the filter only handle very high frequencies so it can have a gentle roll off and low phase errors in the band of interest. As well most CD's still have a rumble filter applied to roll off at under 50Hz to reduce LP record noise ( kind of not needed with a digital signal) and have some horrible DC offsets as well.

[tvtech]

Hi Guys

Metallica has joined (mystery to me... alll they make is noise).

Sitting at 9,499 backers and $3,166,929 and 32 days to go.....Just wait if they get real artists like Bob Dylan, Tracey Chapman,
or a lot of others to contribute/join......never mind the likes of Pink Floyd etc......

This thing should explode and go totally viral if handled the correct way.......Lets see how the Pono team handles this....I see history @ kickstarter being defined by this project.

The race is on between Pebble and this.....

tvtech
.

[tvtech]

Just hit $5,006,834

16 Days still to go.

Awesome 

[Fsck]

you know, if an IEC power cord change makes a difference, I would actually be blaming the power supply subsystem.  its actually hard to imagine any power supply being so bad that an input cord would actually matter, assuming no gross errors and all cords are at least to local code standard.

that's what I'd think too. I'm sort of surprised that no audio people actually care about the quality of their mains and just... use mains with their fancy power cords. if they really did care, they'd be running everything from a double-converting UPS at minimum, or for the more extreme, generate their AC from a large motor.

you don't even need a scope to show how poor quality mains is, a logging dmm is all you really need. did it out of curiosity a while back with a BM869 when it arrived to test out the software, which was set to poll every 0.5s for 4 days. amusingly, the graph of the voltage log it produced of the 4 days looked like 8 extremely noisy sinusoidal cycles.

[richms]

I had some dropouts on my system solved by swapping a dirt cheap IEC from the computer parts box out for a hospital grade shielded one, It was stuffed in with all the interconnects, but after changing it, no more HDMI dropouts when the fridge or similar clicked on or off. Not sure I would go beyond that, and perhaps a better HDMI cable would also have solved the dropout problems.

[CanadianAvenger]

the difference might be due to the presence of an emi choke on your higher grade cord.

[Corporate666]

chris, please stop before you look even more foolish.

if you have never heard of nelson pass, PLEASE google it a bit first.

you are really acting foolish, here.

I'm out of this thread.  if that displeases you, too bad.

As for this Pass guy, I will say this... there is no shortage of people who are willing to sell someone what they want to buy-regardless-of-function.  If that person requires an emotional plea from the seller that "this product really will be everything you have convinced yourself it will be", then there are plenty of sellers who will offer them just that.

The psychology of why people buy things - especially luxury/unnecessary items, is quite fascinating.  But a great summation is here:

http://www.gmarketing.com/articles/13-why-people-buy

Items like 3, 4, 5, 9, 10 and 25 are powerful reasons why people fall for audiophoolery.

[linux-works]

except, if you actually don't know who nelson pass is, you should check.  he's not a 'phool'.  I won't speak for him, but he's approachable on diyaudio and so anyone who thinks he's not what he claims he is, you have the complete freedom to call him on his designs and go one on one with him.  I have no doubts that he'd hold his own with anyone here.

there are a lot of fake designers.  he is NOT one of those.  a little research on the man would easily and quickly reveal this.

[Corporate666]

except, if you actually don't know who nelson pass is, you should check.  he's not a 'phool'.  I won't speak for him, but he's approachable on diyaudio and so anyone who thinks he's not what he claims he is, you have the complete freedom to call him on his designs and go one on one with him.  I have no doubts that he'd hold his own with anyone here.

there are a lot of fake designers.  he is NOT one of those.  a little research on the man would easily and quickly reveal this.

Audiophools are a self-serving group like any cult.  My point is simply that there mere existence of these products in no way substantiates that they are superior to other products anymore than the existence of e-meters proves the existence of thetans in Scientology.  There are people who want to believe in something and choose Scientology; and e-meters help satisfy that belief.  And there are people who want to believe in audiophoolery, and there are numerous products and people who are happy to satisfy their belief (and take their money). 

The higher you go up the pyramid of audiophoolery, the more abstract the terms become, the more faith is required over empiricals, and the more money is required.  It goes back to the psychology of purchasing that I posted and why people buy the things they do.

Nelson Pass... famous for his belief that performance tests on an amp do not tell the whole story besides listening to it.  Gee, what a coincidence 

[linux-works]

the idea is that listening+testing=more complete analysis.  I see nothing wrong with that.  I would not rely soley on either one, to be honest.  I think that's all he (and others) are saying.

the ones that ignore test gear entirely, those are the ones I am suspicious of.  but those are not the people I was referring to in any of my posts.