Author Topic: Projection watch on Indiegogo  (Read 43054 times)

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Offline firewalker

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2015, 08:19:23 pm »
But IGG takes a part of the dirty money.

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Offline valley_nomad

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2015, 09:45:22 pm »
... Actually, in my opinion, and I am not a lawyer, I think kickstarter is more liable for campaigns on its site, than IGG is right now...

IMHO, many of these obvious fraud champaigns on IGG would never have a chance if they were launched on KS
« Last Edit: May 09, 2015, 09:47:10 pm by valley_nomad »
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2015, 01:43:45 am »
... Actually, in my opinion, and I am not a lawyer, I think kickstarter is more liable for campaigns on its site, than IGG is right now...

IMHO, many of these obvious fraud champaigns on IGG would never have a chance if they were launched on KS

I have seen WAY too many free energy/perpetual motion projects on Kickstarter to believe that.  I've even reported all of the ones I've seen and have seen zero action on Kickstarter's part.
 

Offline bitwelder

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2015, 07:12:43 am »
But IGG takes a part of the dirty money.

Alexander.
Well, same as a telecom company that is used by a criminal organization for their landline/cellular/satellite communications.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2015, 07:45:14 am »
and as someone mentioned earlier in this thread... the picture is upside-down... it's the person's left hand with the bracelet => the picture is upside down.

If you actually read what they say and the way they say in their updates it's fairly obvious they are admitting that it's not the watch that's doing the projection, it's an off-the-shelf  "development kit" projector or some such. It's a mock-up. There problem is that they aren't clear enough with this, but there is law against that. If it ever comes to a fraud suit, they can just point to where they said it's development kit, it's not their fault people didn't understand that  ::)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 07:46:51 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2015, 07:38:18 pm »
A person can commit fraud over the phone, with multiple victims.  The phone company is a facilitator of that fraudulent act. Yet the phone company is always immune from prosecution for fraud.  I think IGG will always stay out of the loop. Once they intervene, if only one time, then they are open to multiple lawsuits. Actually, in my opinion, and I am not a lawyer, I think kickstarter is more liable for campaigns on its site, than IGG is right now.

I think that is a possible defence, but very weak. If IGG accept any project without looking at it, they might argue common carrier, although that tends to apply to communications. Websites have no real legal definition, they are a virtual place. What laws apply depends on what transactions the website facilitates.

Are they publishers? Yes, the law has determined they are liable for libel, and copyright violations by users or contributors.

Are they shops? Yes, they are subject to consumer sales laws if selling online.

Are they banks? Yes, if they do financial transactions, they must follow financial laws and be regulated.

So I think that the precedent is set such that crowdfunders would find it very difficult to claim anything like common carrier.
Bob
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Online tom66

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #81 on: May 11, 2015, 08:22:56 am »
I don't think they could argue common carrier because of the commission they take for handling the campaign.

IMHO, it's the same as eBay saying "we can't vet anything - it's not our problem you can buy guns from our online shop". Because eBay take a commission as a direct result of what they advertise for sellers, they are no longer acting as a common carrier. (Tel networks take commission in the form of a per-minute rate, and they can be held liable for premium rate phone scams if they do not vet them properly.)
 

Offline codeboy2k

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #82 on: May 13, 2015, 06:53:02 pm »
I don't think they could argue common carrier because of the commission they take for handling the campaign.

IMHO, it's the same as eBay saying "we can't vet anything - it's not our problem you can buy guns from our online shop". Because eBay take a commission as a direct result of what they advertise for sellers, they are no longer acting as a common carrier. (Tel networks take commission in the form of a per-minute rate, and they can be held liable for premium rate phone scams if they do not vet them properly.)

It would certainly have to be tested in court, anyways.  Taking a payment (i.e. commission) does not prohibit them from claiming common carrier. Indeed, it's a requirement that they do so fairly and equally amongst all persons with something to be "carried" ... i.e. goods, or telegraph messages.  The laws as written are really ancient on this, dealing only with steamboat, train, roadway, and telegraph messages and what a "common carrier" of goods or messages must do.  For example, they cannot refuse to carry so long as payment is made, cannot give preferential treatment to one group or another, etc.  Which basically means that they can take a payment, provide equal services to all campaigns being "carried" and must not get involved with the "contents" of that carriage or refuse to carry it.   I think all modern telecommunications have been lumped into the "telegraph" umbrella in common carrier statutes, but it's clear that the ancient laws are not up to task. Some jurisdictions have probably updated their laws to reflect modern telecommunications better and I'm sure there has also been some legal precedents already.  But as to IGG and KS, we won't know until it gets tested in court.

And then they could be seen as a store and be subject to commercial codes.

 

Offline Kalidor

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Online McBryce

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #84 on: July 14, 2015, 02:54:50 pm »
We have also included a clip, so that you clip to the front your belt, so that the ladies always know what time it is ;)

How's she going to read the time when it's being projected onto her forehead? :D

I'll stick with my Commodore LED watch: http://s94.photobucket.com/user/_NRG_/media/Watches/commadore_LED_2.jpg.html (not my actual watch in this picture) Mine is still going well since 1975! And if you flip it over, you can almost read the time from the reflection on your hand*.

McBryce.

*No you can't, you just get a red blob if the room is dark enough, but that's still better than the Ritot guys have managed so far.
 

Offline janekm

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #85 on: July 15, 2015, 03:26:59 am »
Additional schematics, would be nice if someone can verify it.

https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1436881102/ns9zk4it1axqw3jjmh5c.png
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ritot-the-first-projection-watch/x/10280792#/updates

It's pretty hard to read, but looks like a very plain cut&paste from a datasheet schematic for whichever TI CC2XXX radio transceiver that is (I can't quit read the part number). From the accompanying text it sounds like they are building breakout modules for the different components of the watch, before combining the modules into an integrated design, which is a safe way to to proceed if one doesn't have any time restraints (am I reading the project description correctly that they didn't provide any kind of estimate of when they would ship?  :-// Sensible I suppose ;))

From their updates I get the sense that the founders haven't a clue at all about what is being done on the technical side, but they are getting some kind of help, probably from a TI sales rep...
 

Online McBryce

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #86 on: July 15, 2015, 07:49:06 am »
According to their Timing plan (posted on first page of this thread), they will be shipping in Feb 2015, so they have loads of ti... Oh wait, that's in the past  :scared:

McBryce.
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #87 on: July 15, 2015, 10:34:16 am »
Additional schematics, would be nice if someone can verify it.

https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1436881102/ns9zk4it1axqw3jjmh5c.png
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ritot-the-first-projection-watch/x/10280792#/updates

It's pretty hard to read, but looks like a very plain cut&paste from a datasheet schematic for whichever TI CC2XXX radio transceiver that is (I can't quit read the part number). From the accompanying text it sounds like they are building breakout modules for the different components of the watch, before combining the modules into an integrated design, which is a safe way to to proceed if one doesn't have any time restraints (am I reading the project description correctly that they didn't provide any kind of estimate of when they would ship?  :-// Sensible I suppose ;))

From their updates I get the sense that the founders haven't a clue at all about what is being done on the technical side, but they are getting some kind of help, probably from a TI sales rep...

Better resolution:
https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1436881102/ns9zk4it1axqw3jjmh5c.png
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 

Online tom66

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #88 on: July 15, 2015, 12:31:14 pm »
DCDC_SW, who puts the switch node of a converter on a separate schematic? Very odd. The output capacitance choice is also unusual; 10uF on its own plus two 0.1uF is more like a decoupling layout rather than the output capacitance of a typical buck/boost converter.  The 10mH input inductor is also an unusual choice. It looks like whoever designed this has very little electronics experience.
 

Offline Marcel_X

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #89 on: July 15, 2015, 12:53:16 pm »
Wel Tom66, I think they just copied part of the reference design of the CC2640 (hardware wise identical to the CC2650). At least they took the effort to redraw the reference design, instead of just taking a snapshot of TI's document...  :palm:

If you download the reference design 1.2.6 on http://www.ti.com/product/CC2640/technicaldocuments you can see the same labels (DCDC_SW) and same components. They just did a bad job at copying the schematic. There's a cap (6p8) missing in the differential setup of the antenna. It should be in series with L4 in the Ritot schematic.

And I assume they're going to use a PCB antenna. Another series cap of 12pF is needed after L6. And C26 (0.5pF) is only needed for antenna matching. On the TI boards this component is not mounted.

Scam, scam, scam...
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 01:24:57 pm by Marcel_X »
If it weren't for C, we'd be using BASI, PASAL, and OBOL
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #90 on: August 13, 2015, 02:06:46 pm »
A new update, the PCB is finally rendered, with a USB type-B connector in the center   :-DD   :bullshit:  :-DD  :bullshit:  :-DD
full res: https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1439471066/ec8jyabe9uy8fwc4txg8.png
It's about 10x10cm, the watch dimensions have to be increased a little bit.

At least IGG ended the 'InDemand' aka forever funding some days ago.
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 

Online McBryce

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #91 on: August 13, 2015, 02:16:18 pm »
Hmmm, looks like I'm going to need a bigger arm (and I don't mean processor). Prizes for the most novel placement of a USB connector though!

McBryce.
 

Offline janekm

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #92 on: August 13, 2015, 02:20:43 pm »
A new update, the PCB is finally rendered, with a USB type-B connector in the center   :-DD   :bullshit:  :-DD  :bullshit:  :-DD
full res: https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1439471066/ec8jyabe9uy8fwc4txg8.png
It's about 10x10cm, the watch dimensions have to be increased a little bit.

At least IGG ended the 'InDemand' aka forever funding some days ago.

Well, the USB connector should still work fine with a thin enough USB cable... But there's a lot else worrying about that layout. The radio balun / matching network are laid out in the most awful way, they'll be lucky to get much of any signal through that, the "microstrip" going to the antenna connector is most assuredly not 50Ohm impedance either...
Decoupling capacitors are all over the place and don't seem to have low impedance paths to ground / supply. Crystal layouts look pretty terrible too but might just still work...

But that's a beautiful render of the USB connector at least ;)
 

Offline mikerj

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #93 on: August 13, 2015, 02:38:08 pm »
Hmmm, looks like I'm going to need a bigger arm (and I don't mean processor). Prizes for the most novel placement of a USB connector though!

McBryce.

The USB connector placement is pure genius  :-DD

I'm going to suggest they change the design to project onto the wrist directly under the bracelet.  That immediately removes any issues with depth of field and keystone correction.  Alternatively they could provide a small projection screen to mount on the back of the users hand.
 

Online tom66

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #94 on: August 13, 2015, 04:01:33 pm »
Christ, they got $1.7mn for *that* shit? What the hell?
 

Offline codeboy2k

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #95 on: August 14, 2015, 01:37:25 am »
These guys are just trying to show the backers that they are doing something, and keeping themselves employed for a  few years.  They will eventually run out of funding, but will have given themselves $100,000 salaries for 2 to 3  years. 

Cool scam, bro.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #96 on: August 14, 2015, 03:47:21 am »
These guys are just trying to show the backers that they are doing something, and keeping themselves employed for a  few years.  They will eventually run out of funding, but will have given themselves $100,000 salaries for 2 to 3  years. 

You have to wonder if they are paying themselves a professional level salary from it, or they are living a meagre living trying to bring it to market.
Every campaign should have a "cash left" figure updated daily or weekly.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #97 on: August 14, 2015, 03:50:03 am »
I have not been following this one. But it's almost a year later and they still don't have their first prototype PCB? or even the real projection system? (still using an off-the-shelf demo module)
I think this one is *plonk*
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #98 on: August 14, 2015, 11:36:27 am »
These guys are just trying to show the backers that they are doing something, and keeping themselves employed for a  few years.  They will eventually run out of funding, but will have given themselves $100,000 salaries for 2 to 3  years. 

You have to wonder if they are paying themselves a professional level salary from it, or they are living a meagre living trying to bring it to market.
Every campaign should have a "cash left" figure updated daily or weekly.

The guys are from the Ukraine and their bank account is in Russia. They lied about their names, location and education, no engineers at all just designers, now they say a company from Asia are developing it.
Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in the world, average salary is about $3500 per year, Australia is #4 about $63000 (depends on the source). It's like you get $30M.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
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Offline JimRemington

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Re: Projection watch on Indiegogo
« Reply #99 on: August 16, 2015, 05:14:25 pm »
The RITOT project is closed, with no easily discover-able information.
Think anyone will get their money back?
 


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