Author Topic: REON POCKET - Personal cooler / air conditioner (peltier unit) - SONY scam?  (Read 626 times)

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Offline TheAmmoniacal

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So, even Sony is doing crowdfunding scams now? I can't read Japanese, but this looks like a peltier effect personal cooler / air conditioner of some sort, obviously not viable or useful in practice?

https://first-flight.sony.com/pj/reonpocket

EDIT: This product does not appear to be a Sony product, Sony is just hosting the crowdfunding platform.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 05:06:39 pm by TheAmmoniacal »
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Online SiliconWizard

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Well, I can't read japanese either, but from the pictures, it seems to just be meant to cool down the top of your back. I've seen similar approaches before, and I wouldn't necessarily say that it can't "work".

Just try (I did!): put a small pack of ice there. You will feel almost freezing cold even when it's very hot. Of course it absolutely IS not any kind of air conditioner. It just cools down your body through cooling down local blood circulation. And even though it appears to "work" for a short while, I'm not sure at all how it would feel if you use that any extended period of time. I suspect it may feel pretty uncomfortable after a while.

The point that puzzles me with this particular device is that, given its location and small size, I'm wondering how and where they are evacuating heat (Peltier modules generate a lot of heat on the non-cooling side), and whether this extra heat getting out obviously close to you isn't actually making you feel even hotter. I guess it would have to push hot air out pretty hard and straight behind your back, but the pictures suggest the device can be put under your shirt. So where does the heat go? ;D
 

Offline coppercone2

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little smoke stack on your back, like the replica assassins from f.e.a.r. (a variation on thermal camouflage)



or the PL 1 tank
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Well if it works and it's cheap, I will take it. I sweat a lot, specially since I've arrived in Shenzhen / Hong Kong I never had a so bad summer as this one, were I could take 3 baths a day and sweat again like a pig after.

Never in Portugal I suffered as much with intense sweat that I've been here.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Well if it works and it's cheap, I will take it. I sweat a lot, specially since I've arrived in Shenzhen / Hong Kong I never had a so bad summer as this one, were I could take 3 baths a day and sweat again like a pig after.

Never in Portugal I suffered as much with intense sweat that I've been here.

cooling technology is abysmal and so is how much people are willing to spend on it  :'(

I actually try 'stupid' cooling solutions. Usually things like crappy swamp coolers or neck fans are pretty janky, but they do have some use. Mega over advertised. 'hours of cooling' usually translates into 'alleviates total psychosis for 25 minutes in a hot environment ' Granted it is a hard problem to solve (refrigeration systems are INSANE compared to other engineering things. Freon lines? crazy compressors?   :scared:

electronic controls, turbulance, flow, heat transfer, pressure.. peltiers simplify it alot
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 07:15:40 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline coppercone2

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Well, I can't read japanese either, but from the pictures, it seems to just be meant to cool down the top of your back. I've seen similar approaches before, and I wouldn't necessarily say that it can't "work".

Just try (I did!): put a small pack of ice there. You will feel almost freezing cold even when it's very hot. Of course it absolutely IS not any kind of air conditioner. It just cools down your body through cooling down local blood circulation. And even though it appears to "work" for a short while, I'm not sure at all how it would feel if you use that any extended period of time. I suspect it may feel pretty uncomfortable after a while.

The point that puzzles me with this particular device is that, given its location and small size, I'm wondering how and where they are evacuating heat (Peltier modules generate a lot of heat on the non-cooling side), and whether this extra heat getting out obviously close to you isn't actually making you feel even hotter. I guess it would have to push hot air out pretty hard and straight behind your back, but the pictures suggest the device can be put under your shirt. So where does the heat go? ;D

The heat is blown out through the shirt, look carefully at the thermograph and you will see a  hot spot on the mans neck. When you look at the picture, its not positioned where you think it is. There is red above the blue spot on the left picture. You can also see a blower fan in the picture. The blower is removing heat from the peltier hot side and blowing it out through your shirt.

I assume its meant for going between buildings in Japan I.e. from work , metro, home.
 

Offline coppercone2

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At least I think so, it looks unusually boxy for it to be as a result of the human body.

Their advertising description SUCKS. Because you can't read it.

Watch the video carefully, they have a special shirt with a pocket in it. That's why its called pocket.

I am guessing the special shirt might be actually insulative (god help you if your battery dies) to prevent backwash of hot air from the exhaust, which is supposed to diffuse through your shirt (they did use a blower fan, which is capable of pressurizing something a bit more then a axial fan.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 07:38:38 am by coppercone2 »
 

Online SiliconWizard

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The heat is blown out through the shirt, look carefully at the thermograph and you will see a  hot spot on the mans neck.

Well, that's what I was implying yeah!
So it requires a special shirt? Damn. And even with this special shirt, blowing hot air "through" the shirt is not going to heat up air INSIDE it at all? A "pocket" is a good insulator? :D Sounds a bit bullshitty to me. ;D
And heating the neck is not going to be damn uncomfortable and ruin the attempt at cooling down below it?

That just looks like a stupid implementation of a concept that could kind of work. (Though even if there was no heat issue, just cooling down this spot will make you feel cooler BUT I suspect again that it may feel very annoying/uncomfortable after a while...)

Additionally, if it's indeed a Peltier-based system, those modules eat up so much power that I wonder how long this could last on a small battery...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2019, 05:24:25 pm by SiliconWizard »
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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It has been tried before, doesn't work that well.

What I have tried that is quite effective and compact is a high static pressure 40mm server fan attached to the belt with a rubber band, with a loose fitting shirt as an airflow guide. (A more refined version could use a 3D printed belt clip.) Only uses about 12W or so and trivial to get hours of runtime on a portable battery pack.
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Offline coppercone2

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I think what they have in mind is a blood chiller not a air cooler. I think you want to cool areas that have lots of blood flow, I don't know what is going on in the human back, but it looks mounted wrong (put the cold side on your wrist vessels not the top of your hand like a watch, there is nothing there but bone.


A big muscle should work too, because its porous and when you are walking you swing you arms so blood goes through there. They seem to put it against the spine, not sure what effect that has.

It takes like 20 minutes for spot body cooling to effect muscle temperature (measured with IM thermocouple into muscle with ice pack on top) , but I think it may lower overall body temperature quicker (other hot spots decrease because of fluid heat distribution).
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 02:28:20 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline coppercone2

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The heat is blown out through the shirt, look carefully at the thermograph and you will see a  hot spot on the mans neck.

Well, that's what I was implying yeah!
So it requires a special shirt? Damn. And even with this special shirt, blowing hot air "through" the shirt is not going to heat up air INSIDE it at all? A "pocket" is a good insulator? :D Sounds a bit bullshitty to me. ;D
And heating the neck is not going to be damn uncomfortable and ruin the attempt at cooling down below it?

That just looks like a stupid implementation of a concept that could kind of work. (Though even if there was no heat issue, just cooling down this spot will make you feel cooler BUT I suspect again that it may feel very annoying/uncomfortable after a while...)

Additionally, if it's indeed a Peltier-based system, those modules eat up so much power that I wonder how long this could last on a small battery...

I think the shirt they sell with the pocket is fairly non-permeable to gas flows and it is also a slight insulator, the hot air is exhausted through your over shirt, which may heat your arms and neck, but the thermographs don't show this happening.

So I think basically you sort of pressurize your inner shirt with cold air, and apply spot cooling to your back (maybe cools a muscle) and if the inner and outer shirts have outlets in the same location, you get mixing of hot and cold air here from the inner pressure (very slight).

So long your under shirt had holes/cuffs that extend past the cuffs and holes of your over shirt, the hot air should not cause too much of a problem. I would probobly just not wear anything over the other shirt though... why??? who wears two shirts in this weather other then super formal business people (hedge fund shit)

I would try it if its priced reasonably (under 100$). If they got the best peltier and did the best thermal design possible. It better turn me into mr. freeze if it costs more then that.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 02:34:27 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline coppercone2

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actually, is living bone a good thermal conductor?

I was thinking of skeleton bones, which are pourous and have poor thermal conductivity. But these are living things not argonauts skeletons.

someone with some roast ribs and a thermal flux sensor can find out

its a bit pricey

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HFP01SC-Self-Calibrating-Heat-Flux-Sensor/173983478073?hash=item2882393139:g:-coAAOSwKqNcgFSl
« Last Edit: August 04, 2019, 02:43:09 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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I think what they have in mind is a blood chiller not a air cooler. I think you want to cool areas that have lots of blood flow,...
In other words, flow plenty of cool air over as much skin area as possible. A fan is a very obvious way that works, but a friend of mine demonstrated that it can also be done passively, if you don't mind looking like a Traci that escaped from the Eden Club.
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Offline coppercone2

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i think if you had direct skin contact to a solid over a blood vessel it would be greater then air

but sweat evaporation complicates this
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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There are liquid cooling suits, initially developed for astronauts but have found some other uses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_cooling_and_ventilation_garment
One big disadvantage is that the weight partially offsets the cooling effect, not a problem in the original space application due to low or no gravity.
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