Author Topic: Shaving with laser?  (Read 63628 times)

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Online EEVblog

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #100 on: September 30, 2015, 11:17:23 am »
Isn;t mandatory for KickStarter to ha e a working prototype of some kind?

Just heard about this one.
The big red flag is that with all their talk about going into production, an all their fancy lab gear and credentials, that couldn't actually show one working actually shaving someone.
 

Offline hayatepilot

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #101 on: September 30, 2015, 11:28:54 am »
The big red flag is that with all their talk about going into production, an all their fancy lab gear and credentials, that couldn't actually show one working actually shaving someone.

In their recent update they show a (to some degree) working prototype:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/skarp/the-skarp-laser-razor-21st-century-shaving/posts/1364296

If they want to beat existing shavers, they have to improve A LOT in the final product.

Greetings
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 11:30:43 am by hayatepilot »
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #102 on: September 30, 2015, 11:35:36 am »
They posted a proof of concept. Not a working prototype.

I think this project is like Mu thermal image.

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #103 on: September 30, 2015, 11:38:37 am »
If I was in your position, I would be just as skeptical. I would like to remind you all that our CEO is Morgan Gustavsson, who invented & patented IPL in the 80's. His most recent project is TRASER http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0035899.
Obviously we can't talk about real specifics at this point, but if everyone's interested, we could organize a Q&A with Morgan?

I and I'm sure others on here are quite impressed that you are willing to answer questions on a technical forum like this, kudos for that, most are too scared  ;D

I have a question if I may:
- If you are targeting delivery by March 2016, you'd surely have some real prototypes by now, even if they are ungainly. Why have you not actually demonstrated a working prototype unit?
There is only a small snippet at 1:35 in the video of something that looks like a fibre optic laser working, and I noted the following issues:
1) It looks to give a very poor results, still hairs left over.
2) It looks like flames are shooting up as the hair burns (other have noted the potential smell issue as well)
3) The guy is using protective laser glasses. Why is he doing that if it's a wavelength is safe for people to use?

 

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #104 on: September 30, 2015, 11:43:26 am »
In their recent update they show a (to some degree) working prototype:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/skarp/the-skarp-laser-razor-21st-century-shaving/posts/1364296
If they want to beat existing shavers, they have to improve A LOT in the final product.

Ok, I didn't see the update. Seems they do have a working prototype.
But yeah, I agree, it needs a LOT of work. That is horrible demo. Fiddly, slow, barely works, seems to only work on a point hair and not across the whole face.
This is the stuff that should have been sorted before taking people's money.
 

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #105 on: September 30, 2015, 11:47:20 am »
If they want to beat existing shavers, they have to improve A LOT in the final product.

And that's the trick. It has to be at least as fast and efficient as razors or electric shavers or people simply won't use it.
I switched to electric shaver a long time ago for the convenience and speed.
 

Offline fcb

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #106 on: September 30, 2015, 12:03:41 pm »
In their recent update they show a (to some degree) working prototype:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/skarp/the-skarp-laser-razor-21st-century-shaving/posts/1364296
If they want to beat existing shavers, they have to improve A LOT in the final product.

Ok, I didn't see the update. Seems they do have a working prototype.
But yeah, I agree, it needs a LOT of work. That is horrible demo. Fiddly, slow, barely works, seems to only work on a point hair and not across the whole face.
This is the stuff that should have been sorted before taking people's money.
I don't know Dave, it's a fairly convincing video for a proof-of-concept.  I reckon they must have figured out the power budget vs. battery size vs. speed of shave before they got this far.

I think they might just do it (although I'd be surprised if they hit the timescales or budget) - they probably have some big backers in the wings...
 

Offline hayatepilot

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #107 on: September 30, 2015, 12:09:26 pm »
Yes, of course, you are right, it's just a proof of concept.
I doubt, that they can improve much though.
They claim that a mass produced fiber will be "several orders of magnitude better", but how do they know that?  :bullshit:

And what happens when the fiber breaks? Will it burn your eyes out?
The fiber looks incredibly delicate. I can't imagine it holding long with daily use.  :--
Unless they will use a wedge shaped lightpipe for the laser this is going to fail.
Or you would have to buy replacement fiber cartridges. But then you are back to the expensive replacement blades from conventional shavers. :--

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #108 on: September 30, 2015, 12:16:23 pm »
I don't know Dave, it's a fairly convincing video for a proof-of-concept.

That a laser can burn through a hair. Yep, check, no problem. But actually working as reliable shaver, it was almost excruciating to watch how tedious it was.
If that's the best they've ever demonstrated, and they think that it just takes money to build the "high performance & rigidly mounted fiber can only be manufactured through mass production." that will magically just slice through a face full of hair in one stroke like a razor. Then I think they might be in for a few problems...
 

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #109 on: September 30, 2015, 12:19:46 pm »
They claim that a mass produced fiber will be "several orders of magnitude better", but how do they know that?  :bullshit:

They either have test data to substantiate that claim, or it's just wishful thinking. Perhaps they'd like to clarify how they know that?
 

Offline bigdawg

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #110 on: September 30, 2015, 12:24:28 pm »
In their recent update they show a (to some degree) working prototype:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/skarp/the-skarp-laser-razor-21st-century-shaving/posts/1364296
If they want to beat existing shavers, they have to improve A LOT in the final product.

Ok, I didn't see the update. Seems they do have a working prototype.
But yeah, I agree, it needs a LOT of work. That is horrible demo. Fiddly, slow, barely works, seems to only work on a point hair and not across the whole face.
This is the stuff that should have been sorted before taking people's money.
I don't know Dave, it's a fairly convincing video for a proof-of-concept.  I reckon they must have figured out the power budget vs. battery size vs. speed of shave before they got this far.

I think they might just do it (although I'd be surprised if they hit the timescales or budget) - they probably have some big backers in the wings...

Yes they seem to have some type of a prototype[e and that's better than other failed KS projects however, it seems like that video was shot poorly on purpose. I wanted to have a clear view of the razor cutting hair without even the possibility of it being powered externally.

Another major concern is using such a laser based razor on your face while standing in front of a mirror. Now, anyone who has worked with lasers knows how using it in vicinity of large mirrors without wearing safely glasses is such a risky proposition.

They also claim you can wet shave using this razor. I have a very hard time believing that too.
 

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #111 on: September 30, 2015, 01:49:42 pm »
And that's the trick. It has to be at least as fast and efficient as razors or electric shavers or people simply won't use it.
I switched to electric shaver a long time ago for the convenience and speed.
Conventional blade: takes up to 3 minutes extra for preparation soaping in the skin, water in the basin, cleaning the rasor between shavestrokes.
Electrical raser: you often need multiple times doing the same area because some hair just would not be shaved off right.
So if it takes < 10 minutes to shave it would be fine. If it takes half an hour they better laser the follicles themselves so you don't have to shave for a few days/weeks  :)
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #112 on: September 30, 2015, 02:21:42 pm »
Note this video is not showing near IR effects.. Either they learned from what I said, or they are using mid-IR. It would help if the white balance compensation was set on the camera for that weird greenish light  they were using to film with.

Either way, for a laser professional like me, that was somewhat painful to watch, its working, but its not quite there. Machine stretched and aligned fibers are the way to go. Even the source alignment when they couple the fiber to the laser module and

bond it needs to be automated...  Which is done all the time and is available off the shelf....  How to automate the alignment has been published in great detail over the years.   

There are some scientific uses for stretched fibers. Commercial fiber tapering machines are off the shelf items.
As for knowing the fiber diameter needed, the math is readily available if you know the index of refraction of the hair.

The electronic analogy is knowing guide cutoff wavelength, and S Parameters for your transmission line, ie S11, S12, S21,S22. Then you  break open braid open on the Coax, introducing a loss, and measuring again....   The modeling software would be on the order of 10K$ for the basic package. Optical modeling software is not cheap...

It should be theoretically possible to support the fiber in a way that TIR is not spoiled, but that is going to need phase II funding to engineer. That mount would let it be cleaned...



 That clearly is not something like stock 62/125 u  fiber....

Steve   (edited 12:46:48 on 9/30/2015, because I screwed up on S22)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 02:55:46 pm by LaserSteve »
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Offline bigdawg

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #113 on: September 30, 2015, 02:33:39 pm »
Note this video is not showing near IR effects.. Either they learned from what I said, or they are using mid-IR. It would help if the white balance compensation was set on the camera for that weird greenish light  they were using to film with.

Either way, for a laser professional like me, that was somewhat painful to watch, its working, but its not quite there.

Machine stretched and aligned fibers are the way to go. Even the source alignment when they couple the fiber to the laser module and bond it needs to be automated...  Which is done all the time and is available off the shelf....  How to automate the alignment has been published in great detail over the years.   

There are some scientific uses for stretched fibers, commercial machines are available for small bio  labs, for example.

As for knowing the fiber diameter needed, the math is readily available if you know the index of refraction of the hair.
The electronic analogy is knowing S Parameters for your transmission line, ie S11, S12, S21,S21, and then breaking the braid open on the Coax and measuring again....   The modeling software would be on the order of 10K$ for the basic package. Optical modeling software is not cheap...

It should be possible to support the fiber in a way that TIR is not spoiled, but that is going to need phase II funding to engineer.
That mount would let it be cleaned...



 That clearly is not something like stock 62/125 u  fiber....

Steve

Which software would you use for something like this? I have Zemax which we use for ray tracing, illumination modeling etc but I dont know if it can do the kind of analysis you mentioned.
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #114 on: September 30, 2015, 02:39:53 pm »
Dawg, I'm not sure what optical modeler  I'd use..  Every time I need that kind of code, some bean counter or project manager makes me find another way to model the problem. They all cite the initial expense of 10K$ or 20K$ as too much.  Then someone  tells me to built the system and modify as needed based on bench work and first order approximations.   

Or I'd buy half a day of a really skilled consultant's time.

Steve
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 02:42:18 pm by LaserSteve »
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Offline firewalker

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #115 on: September 30, 2015, 02:44:26 pm »
Note this video is not showing near IR effects.. Either they learned from what I said, or they are using mid-IR. It would help if the white balance compensation was set on the camera for that weird greenish light  they were using to film with.

I thought they were using a filter to protect the camera's ccd.

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Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #116 on: September 30, 2015, 02:48:11 pm »
I'm not awake yet... and forgot about that... I had the audio off in the cubical when I viewed the video.
On using the filter,  I concur, that green glass would be typical of a IR Laser Goggle.
I  Do know from past experience that in some cases, CCD pixels are much easer to damage then eye tissue.

Steve
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 02:52:31 pm by LaserSteve »
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Offline Marco

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #117 on: September 30, 2015, 02:57:35 pm »
It should be theoretically possible to support the fiber in a way that TIR is not spoiled

It will have to be glued to something won't it? A thin glass fiber not solidly attached along it's length to something more robust seems like a very bad idea in a consumer product.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2015, 03:02:59 pm by Marco »
 

Offline bigdawg

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #118 on: September 30, 2015, 03:32:15 pm »
Dawg, I'm not sure what optical modeler  I'd use..  Every time I need that kind of code, some bean counter or project manager makes me find another way to model the problem. They all cite the initial expense of 10K$ or 20K$ as too much.  Then someone  tells me to built the system and modify as needed based on bench work and first order approximations.   

Or I'd buy half a day of a really skilled consultant's time.

Steve

yeah I agree I'll rather get an experienced consultant on board too. I've never had the need to do such modeling on handheld fiber optic systems. My lab set-up uses benchtop lasers, xenon and D2 lamps mounted on (optical) breadboards; which makes conventional ray tracing modeling good enough for our purpose.
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #119 on: September 30, 2015, 06:18:36 pm »


The fiber would probably not be  glued . More likely stretched and then spiked down with metal tabs/clamps or even metalized and soldered/welded  in full  production.


Steve 
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Offline LaserSteve

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #120 on: September 30, 2015, 11:26:09 pm »
Skarp just broke 2 megabucks on Kickstarter... Congrats guys, that alone is impressive...

Steve
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Offline edy

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #121 on: October 03, 2015, 05:29:11 pm »
I just checked and they are at $3 million.  :wtf:

There is no shortage of fools willing to part with their money. Let's look at what we have so far:

- latest video shows some kind of piss-ant fibre-optic cable acting as the "blade edge" which has some high-power light in it.... how easy is it to break it? And when it breaks, how much will it cost to fix?

- latest video shows such inefficient and slow cutting that it seems a far stretch that it will be anywhere close to being practical for all intents and purposes

- latest video does not show the handle completely... for all we know there is a high-powered laser plugged into the mains just running down a long optical fibre and into the handle.... How are they going to fit all that in a tiny portable shaving handle?


Seriously...  :palm:


EDIT:  Just wanted to add this link:

https://www.reddit.com/r/kickstarter/comments/3n59gt/scam_alert_the_wildly_successful_skarp_laser/

Some good comments... And actually what seems like some responses from Skarp (if we are to believe it is them) also chiming in to the thread, and a bunch of jabs in each direction about how skeptical it all seems and why these seemingly reputable researchers wouldn't be involved in this if it were a scam.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2015, 07:16:31 pm by edy »
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Offline jkestner

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #122 on: October 05, 2015, 04:45:21 pm »
I don't know Dave, it's a fairly convincing video for a proof-of-concept.

That a laser can burn through a hair. Yep, check, no problem. But actually working as reliable shaver, it was almost excruciating to watch how tedious it was.
If that's the best they've ever demonstrated, and they think that it just takes money to build the "high performance & rigidly mounted fiber can only be manufactured through mass production." that will magically just slice through a face full of hair in one stroke like a razor. Then I think they might be in for a few problems...

Right. This probably isn't a scam. Too many people are quick to call failed Kickstarters scams, which doesn't do the concept of Kickstarter justice. These guys may know as much about cutting hair with a low-power laser than anyone.

More likely that this will be the second kind of Kickstarter failure - well-intentioned venture that fails in scaling up. (See: CST-01 watch.) They probably don't know as much about bringing a new product requiring novel production techniques to the mass market where consumer expectations are high (and because of the Kickstarter pitch, even higher).
 

Offline LaserSteve

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Offline GNU_Ninja

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Re: Shaving with laser?
« Reply #124 on: October 09, 2015, 09:04:53 pm »
I've been using the same wet shave BIC disposable razor (the really cheap one shave jobs) for the last nine months. Still shaves OK. Bought a pack of 20 for a quid at Tesco's. Still have nineteen of 'em left which ought to last me until I peg it or I need to buy another pack of 20. I doubt this laser doofus will ever compete. EVER!

Filing this crapola under another pointless first world bullshit product that nobody really needs. This planet is fucked up enough already  ::)

 


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