Smarty Ring on IGG

[Kean]

I know there are a metric tonne of dodgy crowd funded projects, but I still can't believe this hasn't been mentioned here.

www.indiegogo.com/projects/smarty-ring/
http://smartyring.com/

Only a few hours to go, but they've raised a significant amount of money in the last couple of days due to media hype - for a project that has no prototype or proof of concept shown.

Weirdly, they've just told me they can ship before April 2014 because they've already sourced parts.  BS!

Kean

[Corporate666]

I threw a dollar at it - because it's worth a buck to be able to comment on it as it goes down in flames, which it will.

There is exactly a 0.00% chance of this product ever actually shipping.  Make that 0.000%

[Jon86]

Can't wait to see how long that 22mAh battery actually lasts with their 'dazzling led display'. I can't imagine how they're going to cram that into a 'ring' anyway 
As if this is even going to come close to production... IGG should really monitor these, but I guess they're only making money so they don't care.

[fcb]

If you look at your cellphone every 6 minutes (according to their blurb), I think you deserve to invest in this one.

What does $300,000 buy in Chennai?

[jonmarx]

Looking at the supposed prototype PCB design I struggle to see how that can curve around and fit into a ring.  Also is the grid-like feature near the right-hand end of the PCB the LED display array?  If so the resolution looks rather low - I foresee some disappointed customers...

http://images.indiegogo.com/file_attachments/198005/files/20131114145731-pcbdesign.png?1384469851

[Jon86]

If you look at your cellphone every 6 minutes (according to their blurb), I think you deserve to invest in this one.

What does $300,000 buy in Chennai?

I look at my phone quite often, probably not every 6 minutes, but there's no way this would be useful. It really doesn't bother me at all to slider my phone out of my pocket and check it. Stupid piece of garbage that's going to be no use at all.

[Legit-Design]

Can't wait to see how long that 22mAh battery actually lasts with their 'dazzling led display'.

It doesn't need to dazzle all the time. Check nixie watches, they usually have light sensor and/or accelerometer and will only show time and other things when user desires.

[CanadianAvenger]

That ring is HUGE at a minimum of 15mm wide [to accommodate the LED matrix], and god only knows how thick. You might as well put a pipe fitting on your finger!

The user has to press a button to activate the display [at least that was the answer given in the comments on IGG]

As for the LED matrix, the resolution is 24x11, more than enough for time display and scrolling text, so I don't see that as an issue. Though OLED is probably a better solution here, and would allow for a higher resolution.

Having said that, I don't think this project will ever come to be. While they appear to have a legitimate PCB designed, for the application. The shown design could never be curved into a ring [as is]. It also doesn't fully match up with the renderings. I'll guess that the shown PCB is the prototype design, for functionality, on a rigid PCB, and not mechanics. To cram that into a ring they would need to get all their IC's in wafer form, and bond directly to their flex circuit, something they will need sufficient quantity to be able to do.

[Corporate666]

I think the problem is that the rendering shows something that current manufacturing technology is unable to achieve, so there will inevitably be a large gap between the expectation and the end result.

It's easy to say the backers should know this, but to a much greater degree, IGG should know this, and Kickstarter should know this.  Some may say KS learned this when they stopped people from using renderings, but they still don't vet projects or claims, nor do they hold people to claims or hold them to actually delivering anything.

Then they get around this with some tiny disclaimer on the pledge page about how you should do your own due diligence.  Funny though, I put $1 into this Smarty Ring last night and it never made clear that there was any risk involved or asked me to clearly read any terms and conditions or anything even close to it.

[Kean]

They stated the ring is 13mm wide and 4mm thick, and available in US ring sizes 5 thru 15.  So I 3D printed some samples (US ring sizes 12 & 14) and I found they were uncomfortable to wear, stopping normal motion of my fingers.  Mind you I don't normally like to wear my wedding ring, but that is partly because of the risk of shorting computers/electronics while I work on them.

The specs for the ring say they are using a Nordic nRF51822 - which gives them an ARM Cortex M0 and BT low energy.  I believe the BTLE stack uses 80kB of the flash, so without sufficient time to optimise code they'd probably struggle with the 128kB version and need to go for the 256kB one.  Add a couple of additional larger notification LEDs, some push buttons, a chip antenna & jellybeans, some shift registers/LED drivers (12 outputs each) and run the 24x11 LED matrix in Charlieplexing mode, and all you need is software.  Total electronics BOM isn't too bad - maybe $10-$20 depending on volume.

Oh, yes... you also need a very thin battery, a battery charging circuit (Qi supposedly, but not on the PCb shown), plus the metal ring itself and glass covers, as well as all the mechanical nouse and sepecialist experience to mass produce the parts and assemble them.  And fit it all in mutliple ring sizes!

And on top of that, there is a Qi charging stand to design, build, & pay for.

The IC's are wafer scale BGA, so pretty small.  Nordic requires me to register to download the data sheet, so I'm going to guess the main chip is 3.5x3.5mm (I think I saw that quoted somewhere).  The sample PCB they show would thus be about 55x7mm (which should just fit in the circumference of a size 5 ring), and the LED matrix about 12x5.5mm.  So that is using very small chip scale LEDs, not something handled by your average pick and place, and I suspect easily damaged if the tiny flex PCB is mishandled.

I'm not saying any of this is impossible - but the battery is a big problem, and the BT & wireless charging through a stainless housing (or a copper/LED matrix behind the glass) is going to be awfully tricky to get right.  If they do manage to eventually ship anything, I don't think it will be anything like the renders.

Kean

[Jon86]

You have to press a button to activate the display?! I might as well check my phone or just look at my bloody watch.
They at least could've implemented something like what casio did with tilting your watch to turn on the backlight.

[Kean]

Yeah, but the battery would run out very quickly - unless you're asleep or something your fingers pretty much move constantly
Oh, and I don't see any use for the ring - but it would be a cool little device to play with

[Orpheus]

I note they are still selling these through the end of January on their own website

Interestingly, their base price is now $175 (their former "first 1000 units" early adopter price) with substantial discounts from there (~15% off for 2 or $150ea; ~30% off in qty 10). While I realize that such discounts can be practical once you have the tooling made, relationships formed, etc., this deep discounting tells me that they are awfully confident of something. I'd like to think it means they are far enough along into their pre-production phase to be confident of success and capitalize on their now-amortized sunk expenses, but that doesn't make much sense. Why offer such deep discounts now? It would offer them little benefit and hurt them when negotiating with retailers (as they would, if this succeeded). I hate to say it, but I fear that they are "confident" they'll never carry through, so all orders are just money in the bank

I realize that this is cynical. One might choose to believe that they're simply in the honeymoon phase before realizing how profoundly they are screwed on DFM, were it not for the April ship date that they still advertise.

Having toyed with making electronic jewelry in the 90s, I was so skeptical about this design [modern advances notwithstanding] that I didn't even think to come here and read the inevitable evisceration.

Aside from the issues above, I have difficulty reconciling the waterproofed/metal exterior with the necessary RF antenna. Rings are worn on fingers, but more importantly, between them, which tends to attenuate the signal. In the past, I briefly explored inductive and other coupling through the human body itself for medical applications. but existing consumer cellphones aren't equipped to transmit such signals.

I'd love to hear some discussion of this by the smart RF types around here. If it's remotely feasible, I want to start experimenting!

[Orpheus]

Someone just reminded me of this. They are still taking website orders with shipments to start in the first week of April, and they have a new IndeGoGo drive with 36 hours left that has raised an additional $100,000 (on a target of $500!) for shipment in May.

They say they are on schedule. It should be interesting to watch, starting in about weeks...

[Fox]

Look here for a good article about smartyring and other more or less dodgy Projects
 http://drop-kicker.com/

[scientist]

They're throwing assorted useless functions onto this ring like a pedometer. Why can't these idiots keep to their goals instead of inflating the projects to impossible proportions?

[Kean]

They "have some issue with pcb assembly" - what a surprise!!!   

[miguelvp]

After looking at the girl showing the ring I couldn't help myself.



No, really! I'm just showing you what time it is!

[Jon86]

Hahaha! They've posted pictures of a plain metal ring, and a wireless charger... Looks like it's going well   

[corrado33]

Someone on another site brought up a good point. Google hasn't quite figured out glass (a larger product that does similar things) and they have a crap ton more money than these startups.

We really don't even have a good smart bracelet yet, or watch for that matter. Let's see that first. Seriously, do people thing a ring will stay in one direction on their finger the whole time. Half the time the display will be pointing away from you anyway...

[CanadianAvenger]

Someone on another site brought up a good point. Google hasn't quite figured out glass (a larger product that does similar things) and they have a crap ton more money than these startups.

We really don't even have a good smart bracelet yet, or watch for that matter. Let's see that first. Seriously, do people thing a ring will stay in one direction on their finger the whole time. Half the time the display will be pointing away from you anyway...

I wouldn't consider Glass and the SmartyRing to be in the same league at all, or even remotely similar. Glass has much more functionality, complexity, and intelligence. The ring is essentially a remote status display, with some control feedbacks. Technologically the functionality of the ring is quite easy to do, but getting it into a package as small as a ring is not.

[fcb]

If you look at your cellphone every 6 minutes (according to their blurb), I think you deserve to invest in this one.

What does $300,000 buy in Chennai?

Read the comments on IGG re: Smarty Ring

[corrado33]

I wouldn't consider Glass and the SmartyRing to be in the same league at all, or even remotely similar. Glass has much more functionality, complexity, and intelligence. The ring is essentially a remote status display, with some control feedbacks. Technologically the functionality of the ring is quite easy to do, but getting it into a package as small as a ring is not.

Fine, we'll compare it to samsung's galaxy gear, which was released what... late last year? Sure, I think the galaxy gear has a touchscreen, but the ring has the finger motion things, just two different input devices. A remote display watch/wristband makes sense. A remote display ring does not. The display is not always guaranteed to be facing you (on a purely circular ring.) (Aka one that can spin around your finger with nothing impeding it.) And I'm SURE this thing would have size limits, meaning no normal sized female could probably ever wear it. (Or men with dainty hands)

Besides, I hate wearing rings, therefore it should never be made. 

EDIT: Wait I just noticed... do people really check their phone every six minutes? Wow...

[CanadianAvenger]

Fine, we'll compare it to samsung's galaxy gear, which was released what... late last year? Sure, I think the galaxy gear has a touchscreen, but the ring has the finger motion things, just two different input devices. A remote display watch/wristband makes sense. A remote display ring does not. The display is not always guaranteed to be facing you (on a purely circular ring.) (Aka one that can spin around your finger with nothing impeding it.) And I'm SURE this thing would have size limits, meaning no normal sized female could probably ever wear it. (Or men with dainty hands)

Besides, I hate wearing rings, therefore it should never be made. 

EDIT: Wait I just noticed... do people really check their phone every six minutes? Wow...

Don't get me wrong, in no way was my comment meant to be in support of SmartyRing, I think it's a ridiculous product idea.  I was only saying that Google Glass and the SmartyRing are not really comparable, as they are in no way similar.

As you said, a bracelet/watch makes sense, a ring does not. Look at the girth of that thing! I can't imagine anyone being able to wear something that thick for more than 5 minutes. That ring would constantly be getting in the way, not to mention how uncomfortable it would be as it would force your fingers to be apart more than their natural distance. [unless you wear it on your thumb]

[Kean]

Latest SmartyRing update (after 2 months of silence):

We are redesigning the PCB to make ring thinner and better, in Couple of weeks the Final product will be ready, sorry for the delay

[Bored@Work]

It's not "for sale” if it doesn't even exist yet.

Conman all over the world would disagree with you.  So would bankers all over the world.

[Kean]

OK, now they're just taking the mickey... another update posted just minutes ago:

Good news! we are switching to e-paper display to minimize the power consumption, to get more battery life.

We are adding backlights to e-paper display to get good visibility on both day and night, than leds.

please wait for next update, we will post a working prototype, thanks for your patience and helping us to make this unique product.

[Corporate666]

This project was a total hype job from the start - I backed for $1 just to keep up with the updates and be able to post, but it amazes me how really stupid (frankly) people are.  There are people saying "give us a choice of LED or e-paper" and "give them a chance, they can still do it".

An e-paper display will be nothing like the rendered product they showed originally in the campaign video.  The people hanging on to hope are just stupid... like buying a sports car and they tell you they're changing to a pickup truck instead.

[Kean]

The latest SmartyRing update isn't much better than the eariler ones, but there is a mention of potential refunds 

Dear Supporters,

We are in final stage of completing working prototype, it will be completed before December. If we fail to complete , we will start making refunds.

Thanks for your patience

[Kalidor]

www.smartyring.com is gone and no updates since 6 months, successfully scammed $400k from 1500 backers with two campaigns.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/smarty-ring--3
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/smarty-ring--4

[edy]

Even the renderings are flawed....

Look how wide the ring appears on the girl and the guy... At least DOUBLE the width of the rendered rings on the table. They can't even get the renders correct. I don't think they have any clue as to the actual size of the ring, none of the external or internal physical dimensions, which will severely limit the display, processing function and battery life of this device.

See the photos attached here...


Airing = Smarty Ring = no-prototype dreams in the clouds

[miguelvp]

www.smartyring.com is gone and no updates since 6 months, successfully scammed $400k from 1500 backers with two campaigns.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/smarty-ring--3
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/smarty-ring--4

I posted it before but I'll repost it again:

[edy]

Ok.... I get it...      I didn't catch that finger the first time. 

[Corporate666]

That whole project is a joke.  A huge black eye for IndieGoGo, but also indicative of the average critical thinking skills of most people.

They showed obviously fake renderings of a pie-in-the-sky product, and people threw money at them.  One could say that people aren't at fault for believing what they are told, but the renderings are Star-Trek levels of fit/finish and technology which does not exist yet, which is where people's critical thinking skills (or lack of) come in.

And shame on IGG for doing nothing about this scammer and letting 6 MONTHS go by without any update, yet still telling backers "we feel the creator is doing an adequate job" blah blah blah.

[edy]

Perhaps if IndieGoGo actually vetted their site projects better, none of this would happen. Or if they audited actual backer projects through a team of engineers or even had a panel of experts from various industries review "flagged" projects, they could easily tell practical or possible from dream projects. Or perhaps allowed non-backers to comment on projects, to act as a non-biased voice to sway opinions. Or to allow backers to easily and automatically get refunded (I know Kickstarter does that but not sure about IGG) during and even AFTER the initial campaign, especially if the project gets over-funded. Or perhaps if they held backer money in escrow or released it in phases to the project creators in line with meeting project timeline goals (and proving that they have).  And the list goes on... 

So many ways that IndieGoGo can make it less attractive to scammers who are great at using 3D rendering tools and photoshop, yet still be faithful to the crowd-funding spirit to actual people who have something that works and can deliver it. But IndieGogo stands to make money even from these failed projects, so what is their incentive? Wouldn't they want to make it a safer environment so that more people will back future projects and they will make more money in the long run? Why just take the attitude of "it's not our problem, we are just a 3rd party middle-man handling the transaction"? If the platform builds a reputation of not delivering or pissing backers off, they will stand to lose more... Unless they think project creators will just move to another crowd-funding site to avoid the additional scrutiny?

I also put the blame on the media bloggers and tech news sites. They find something and recite the same drivel over and over again, repeating the story and press kit photos numerous times (like those Smarty Ring renders) without even one person questioning anything they are seeing. Why? Because the more eyeballs click on those blog sites, the more "cool" the gadget, the more speedy the hyperbole-train flies, the more revenue they make from ad-clicks. You see it every time. I listen to CNET, TechCrunch, and other tech-related content and most of them do not step back a moment and think how this device is ACTUALLY possible.

And unfortunately there are way too many people who are not familiar with the current state of technology and science. We may take it for granted but then again I assume the majority of people on EEVBlog forums are educated (or striving to learn more) and more technically-oriented than the average person who has no idea what is going on inside their phone, car, microwave, TV, etc... and simply knows how to press the buttons to make things work. So I can't blame most people for believing this Smarty Ring scam... It does look impressive and I can understand why people would go for it. They just don't know any better. So is there any protection for people in this case? We are free to throw money at whatever we want, but at the same time the project creators lied about it and did not deliver.

Everyone from the media to IndieGogo and in-between stands to profit from promoting these impossibly cool gadgets without taking any time to critique them. That's why we need to change the system to allow non-backers to comment in a way that allows the backers and creators also to see the posts. Allow us to crap directly at the source on the party-like awesomeness factor and step back into REALITY. I see that happen when the project has a FaceBook page... but even then, backers get very defensive about their decision and fight the critics. Who wants to listen to a bunch of old pessimistic EEVBlog folks?  So then you just say "the heck with them" and let them throw their money away... Scammers win. Unfortunate situation. The backers really have to fight this themselves.

[will9twl]

hi, i'm just curious, so did anyone receive an actual product?

[EEVblog]

Or if they audited actual backer projects through a team of engineers or even had a panel of experts from various industries review "flagged" projects, they could easily tell practical or possible from dream projects.

Yes. This.
Doesn't pay to have engineering staff on hand of course, but I'm sure you'd find suitably qualified and vetted volunteers willing to give a quick thumbs up/down to any flagged project.
So a projects gets reported by N people, and then gets automatically passed onto a suitable review group who give a quick "vibe" thumbs up or down rating. If it gets enough thumbs down the projects gets pulled.
Of course you want to avoid any "approved" system, as from IGG point of view that means liability. But pulling projects based on expert opinion/vibe does not make you liable for anyone, it's protecting you and giving you increased credibility at the loss of perhaps a small amount of profit.

[Corporate666]

Or if they audited actual backer projects through a team of engineers or even had a panel of experts from various industries review "flagged" projects, they could easily tell practical or possible from dream projects.

Yes. This.
Doesn't pay to have engineering staff on hand of course, but I'm sure you'd find suitably qualified and vetted volunteers willing to give a quick thumbs up/down to any flagged project.
So a projects gets reported by N people, and then gets automatically passed onto a suitable review group who give a quick "vibe" thumbs up or down rating. If it gets enough thumbs down the projects gets pulled.
Of course you want to avoid any "approved" system, as from IGG point of view that means liability. But pulling projects based on expert opinion/vibe does not make you liable for anyone, it's protecting you and giving you increased credibility at the loss of perhaps a small amount of profit.

I don't think they even need to hire a single person to fix the problem.

All they need to do is allow people to comment before they put $$ into the project.  As it stands, only people who pay can post comments, which means the only people talking are the ones who've bought into the idea.

Not only that, they let project creators delete comments.  That's insanity!  Creators can just delete anything that calls their project into question.

They should let users select a job title when they sign up for the site and have a thumbs up/thumbs down for users.  That way if someone labels themselves an engineer but has tons of thumbs down, you know the community doesn't put much stock in that person.  Whereas if they get lots of thumbs up, they are either trustworthy or make on-point comments.

Wouldn't cost IGG a dime, wouldn't increase their liability at all, IMO, and would help protect their users from scams.  The only downside is it might cause some projects not to fund that otherwise would.  Which (again IMO) is clear proof that IGG cares more about short-term $$ today and delivering long-term value. 

[edy]

That's a good idea. Why they don't have any comments option for non-backers is to eliminate critical thinking.

IndieGogo reminds me of those sales meetings designed as free lectures on some money making or too good to be true deal. They get a bunch of people in the room and after a well-polished sales pitch there is mass hysteria about wanting to buy in before it's too late. I have seen many otherwise normal people get wrapped up in the fervor.

IndieGogo backer comments are like that.... And people who even think they have made a mistake will still delude themselves into justifying their decision.

I think the only realistic option (since IndieGogo will likely never do what we are talking about) is simply to keep commenting about projects on blogs, forums and everywhere else that is indexed by Google so if people do want to freely express their opinions they have a place to do so. Every backer who gets scammed today is one less backer who gets scammed tomorrow.

[Kalidor]

hi, i'm just curious, so did anyone receive an actual product?

That was the latest "prototype" - one year ago.
in some countries brass knuckles  are forbidden   


https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/smarty-ring--3/x/10280792#/updates

"We designed a new shape as below, The advantages are,
1. 30% more battery life
2. The over all ring width will be reduced from 4mm to 2.5mm , so it will look elegant than the existing design.
We will make this shape only for who wish to have, otherwise we will send the existing design.
Thanks for your support."

[tom66]

Maybe I'm too cynical but it looks like this similar Smart Ring project might be going the same way:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/doi-smartring-connectivity-at-your-fingertips#/story

They're at least regularly updating and they did have some real prototypes, but when you see the board they've come up with and some of the explanations for delays or progress, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. For example, the most recent update, they're talking about programming the OLED pixel-by-pixel due to a lack of high level tools. Does their processor not have the memory/capability to draw fonts/icons/etc from memory? Very odd.

[Kalidor]

Maybe I'm too cynical but it looks like this similar Smart Ring project might be going the same way:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/doi-smartring-connectivity-at-your-fingertips#/story

From this render: 


To that proto-knuckle: 


At least these guys showed up at CES, from the SmartyRing guys we not even have a picture.

[Corporate666]

Maybe I'm too cynical but it looks like this similar Smart Ring project might be going the same way:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/doi-smartring-connectivity-at-your-fingertips#/story

From this render: 


To that proto-knuckle: 


At least these guys showed up at CES, from the SmartyRing guys we not even have a picture.

Just another project created by idiots, and funded by idiots.

Looking at the initial render, it's obvious they won't be able to achieve anywhere near what they sold people on - not even close.  Just like the Smarty Ring fool, they are promising a Star-Trek like level of fit and finish that might be achievable 20 years from now, but isn't today.

$170k is about what Apple would spend *per day* developing this project, if not more.  And Apple wouldn't be able to come close to the size or level of fit/finish they promised in that rendering.

How dumb are people to fall for this stuff?  I guess there's a reason penis enlargement pills sell, as well as pills that promise to make you look 30 years younger.  There are a lot of dumb people out there!

[edy]

I found these on Alibaba. Much less cost and functionality but they actually exist:

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Smart-R-I-N-G-Accessories_60305586121.html?spm=a2700.7724838.35.1.xThmnN