Another one bites the dust

[janoc]

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kickshark/hydradock-11-port-usb-c-dock-for-apple-macbook/posts/1694375

"Short version:

Due to some completely unexplainable incompetence by our China factory, we are stuck, and have to pause everything until we can arrange new money to move forward."

 

[edy]

I read the long version. 

Here is one of the issues being in the US and dealing with China from remote. Also, physically not being there or having someone who can speak Chinese on your core team overlooking every step of production. If Trump was watching this campaign it would feed right into his argument.

Now I'm sure many people also deal with China all the time with no issues. So is this an isolated rare case or is it more prevalent than we think?

[trophosphere]

I would think it would be more of a communication problem from both ends rather than incompetence on just one end.

[Corporate666]

Haven't followed this project but the comments talk about all the problems this project has had... which suggests the real problem is the creators have been incompetent and out of their depth from day one but have been completely unwilling to accept responsibility for any of this and instead blame everything on Chinese factories.  It sounds like they tried to outsource the whole thing - all of the design and all of the manufacturing and that always goes badly.  And the creators aren't taking responsibility - they are passing the buck as fast as they can.

[EEVblog]

Risks and challenges
All the engineering and compliance testing is done. The production tooling is already being made. Our first production run is on track for early June. All we need to know is the scope of demand for these products, and to then adjust the quantities we make. Standard crazy risks like hurricanes and zombie invasions could effect our schedule. But, otherwise, this is all on track using the most reliable factory resources in China.

 

[EEVblog]

This tell you a lot:

We are KickShark — a small technology accelerator program in Nashville, Tennessee, with a team of passionate designers, developers, and makers determined to bring the coolest, most helpful and elegant products possible to market. HydraDock is our most adventurous effort to date, and is the start of what we hope will become the world's leading brand of USB-C products. But, to make this all possible, we really need your help.

Just yet another group of people via one of these "accelerator" programs who brainstormed a product idea and thought it would be a cake walk to riches

[jonovid]

China factory

, Ok so the US government is Now picking a fight with China . so China claims virtually the entire South China Sea and has repeatedly denounced what it views as interference there by the United States and its ally, Japan. also The International Monetary Fund just added the yuan to its basket of reserve currencies  it's all to do with international politics!

[jpliew]

I read the long version. 

Here is one of the issues being in the US and dealing with China from remote. Also, physically not being there or having someone who can speak Chinese on your core team overlooking every step of production. If Trump was watching this campaign it would feed right into his argument.

Now I'm sure many people also deal with China all the time with no issues. So is this an isolated rare case or is it more prevalent than we think?

Remotely managing a manufacturing project is really hard even with someone able to speak native language there.

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi,

This is another failed project without photographs.

I did quick scan of the campaign, and I didn't find a single photograph of a pcb or an enclosure.

A few photos would add credibility to the story.


[Sarcasm] May be NDA's are preventing them from publishing photographs? [Sarcasm/]

Jay_Diddy_B

[PartialDischarge]

I would think it would be more of a communication problem from both ends rather than incompetence on just one end.

That IS incompetence. Before going into production you have to know about production/manufacturing. If you decide to outsource that you need to master the
competence of dealing with other cultures (that includes effective communication) and knowing about business/negotiation(basically how not to get ripped off).

And I don't think one can just outsource manufacturing like it was nothing. Manufacturing is the core of these businesses, but people think that a shopfloor is just
unskilled workers soldering and tightening nuts and bolts. Manufacturing is:

-Key suppliers info
-quality control tests
-Engineering drawings, schematics, assemblies...
-Special manufacturing/test tooling information
-Bills of materials
-Scheduling/production forecasts
-possibly direct customer information (names, addresses)
-possibly pricing information

And people give someone they don't know from China all this information like nothing ??
I call this pure ignorance/incompetence and they'll get what they deserve, horseshit

[trophosphere]

@Mastertech: Communication is key to everything. If they had effective communication in the first place then the possibility of this kind of turn-out would be much less. I was pointing out that incompetence comes from not effectively communicating rather than just straight up blaming that they just didn't know what they were doing. They could have done something - communicate - before even engaging in such a project in the first place.

[PartialDischarge]

@Mastertech: Communication is key to everything. If they had effective communication in the first place then the possibility of this kind of turn-out would be much less. I was pointing out that incompetence comes from not effectively communicating rather than just straight up blaming that they just didn't know what they were doing. They could have done something - communicate - before even engaging in such a project in the first place.

understood and agreed

[janoc]

I read the long version. 

Here is one of the issues being in the US and dealing with China from remote. Also, physically not being there or having someone who can speak Chinese on your core team overlooking every step of production. If Trump was watching this campaign it would feed right into his argument.

Now I'm sure many people also deal with China all the time with no issues. So is this an isolated rare case or is it more prevalent than we think?

You need to check on the history of the project - this isn't the first time they had issues. Oh and the delivery is more than a year overdue already. Just look at the updates:

Feb 17th:
"Briefly, it seems that about 15% of the initial 200 HydraDocks we shipped before Chinese New Year have either a video output defect or a charge voltage regulation defect. That means that the 1,300+ units still in Shenzhen will also have the same percentage defective, and need to have the firmware fixed and revised before being shipped."

Feb 9th:
"It seems that about 5% to 10% of this first batch of HydraDocks are showing the same problem with intermittent video operation, which is a significant problem. It also seems that about 90% of these first HydraDocks are fine, which is a good thing."

Nov 6 2015:

"Our factory tells us that the USB audio and the HDMI problems are fixed. But, in testing, they uncovered a bug that causes the SD card reader to fail when a display is plugged into the Mini DisplayPort jack, for some reason. We tried it here. And, yes, it does just that."

Jun 2015 (just about before the original shipping deadline)
"That said, it looks like our first major project has a serious delay. The DisplayPort demux chip we mentioned in our previous update does not have simple firmware issue like we hoped. It has a silicon-level flaw in a set of buffer memory registers that requires the chip maker to make design level changes, and to make a new mask, and then do a new production run. We have been told that this will take, “… at a bare minimum, four to six weeks.”"

Etc. That looks like they never actually even tested the stuff before sending it out to the manufacturer or they have enormous quality control issues. Or both. Doesn't really reek of competence to me.

[edy]

You need to check on the history of the project - this isn't the first time they had issues. Oh and the delivery is more than a year overdue already. Just look at the updates:

Feb 17th:
"Briefly, it seems that about 15% of the initial 200 HydraDocks we shipped before Chinese New Year have either a video output defect or a charge voltage regulation defect. That means that the 1,300+ units still in Shenzhen will also have the same percentage defective, and need to have the firmware fixed and revised before being shipped."

Feb 9th:
"It seems that about 5% to 10% of this first batch of HydraDocks are showing the same problem with intermittent video operation, which is a significant problem. It also seems that about 90% of these first HydraDocks are fine, which is a good thing."

Nov 6 2015:

"Our factory tells us that the USB audio and the HDMI problems are fixed. But, in testing, they uncovered a bug that causes the SD card reader to fail when a display is plugged into the Mini DisplayPort jack, for some reason. We tried it here. And, yes, it does just that."

Jun 2015 (just about before the original shipping deadline)
"That said, it looks like our first major project has a serious delay. The DisplayPort demux chip we mentioned in our previous update does not have simple firmware issue like we hoped. It has a silicon-level flaw in a set of buffer memory registers that requires the chip maker to make design level changes, and to make a new mask, and then do a new production run. We have been told that this will take, “… at a bare minimum, four to six weeks.”"

Etc. That looks like they never actually even tested the stuff before sending it out to the manufacturer or they have enormous quality control issues. Or both. Doesn't really reek of competence to me.

Yes that.... Or they are spinning a huge pile of B.S. packed thick with techno-babble and blame on China to deflect attention from this train wreck. When the truth finally comes out, I wonder what really happened. How did they not work out the issues at the prototype stage before they spent all backer money on production runs that got repeatedly botched? Hmmm...

[KL27x]

+1 Total BS.

They have outsourced all testing? Really? "Their factory" finds issues before the guys who designed it and know what it's supposed to do?
They have 90% working product but can't ship a single unit?
Firmware (open source) can't be disseminated after the fact and/or upgraded at a future date IF necessary for affected units?
It's not firmware, it's silicon, so the 90% that work which now don't need a firmware upgrade still can't be shipped?
"Their factory" discovered a silicon errata before the designers or the device and/or manufacturer of the chip?
No documentation link of the errata? Part numbers, errata. It's documented.
Factory uses the wrong CAD file...no. You confirm the file. Mistake is on you. They make sure of it.
No pics.
They may or may not have played at engineer at all before they cut their losses. Way before thousand of units, 90% of them working, were ever made. They sure now how to string together BS and post it on a website, though. To pull off what they claim, they need to have at least 1 of the top 1000 engineers that Nashville ever produced, lol. They probably should have outsourced the entire thing to China. Better odds. Just kidding. (No not really. I'm sure Nashville's engineering schools produce many fine future Senior Electrical/Software Engineers)

+1 on pics or it didn't happen. If they got even one dookickey doing even 10% of what was promised, they'd have pics/video showing it off.

[snoopy]

Do any of these dudes have a technical background that is relevant to the device they are trying to build ?

I recall that when I was watching Shark Tank on one of our local TV stations one of the Tech Investors/Entrepreneur Steve Baxter said that he would not invest in any tech startup if the people behind it did not have the relevant technical skills. He's been burnt many times dealing with the wrong type of people !!

cheers

[Corporate666]

Do any of these dudes have a technical background that is relevant to the device they are trying to build ?

I recall that when I was watching Shark Tank on one of our local TV stations one of the Tech Investors/Entrepreneur Steve Baxter said that he would not invest in any tech startup if the people behind it did not have the relevant technical skills. He's been burnt many times dealing with the wrong type of people !!

cheers

It's comically insulting how many people (apparently) think that developing tech products is easy.

Imagine if people embarked upon music, design, film, fashion, theater or dance projects with absolutely no experience in those fields, and their plan was to outsource those functions to a musician or videographer or seamstress, etc.  People would rightly question what exactly makes them think they are qualified to run such a project and why on earth they are outsourcing the essence of the project.  But with tech projects... morons do it all the time because they think developing the tech is easy.

I talked to one moron on another site - I bet he is a member here - who had an idea for a gesture control interface for computers.  Well, the idea has been around forever... but like so many others, he went to KS first and got money.  Then they tried to outsource the actual development to China.  They failed, of course, and they had the audacity to claim that the design skill to develop such electronics does not exist outside of China.   

The naivete of many of these project creators about the ease of developing 'tech' is surpassed only by their quickness to gamble with other people's money if it helps their ends. 

[tszaboo]

It's comically insulting how many people (apparently) think that developing tech products is easy.

Also, people thinking that organising production run in china is just a few email. The way I see it, you need an office, several people working on QC, several managers, and support engineers people doing overtime due to different time zones. I dont even think that doing production straight in china is profitable. Unless you have a product, that has only off the shelf parts, and maybe a few dozen components.

[PartialDischarge]

It's comically insulting how many people (apparently) think that developing tech products is easy.

Also, people thinking that organising production run in china is just a few email. The way I see it, you need an office, several people working on QC, several managers, and support engineers people doing overtime due to different time zones. I dont even think that doing production straight in china is profitable. Unless you have a product, that has only off the shelf parts, and maybe a few dozen components.

Producing locally has many advantages, especially if the product is simple. Its not as expensive as people think and most of all I wouldn't
send any technical info, which is the result of my hard work, to any chinese company which will try to copy it with 250% certainty.

[edy]

The problem with many of these technology product crowd-funding campaigns is that they are often started by "entrepreneurs" and business people who have an idea and may be great at marketing them and designing the vision, but cannot execute it themselves because they have no idea how the technology works and the limitations and costs involved.

So off they go.... putting the cart before the horse, leaping without a parachute....  and hope they can gather the necessary team of experts once they've got the money raised. They are more interested in the business and financial part of a start-up rather than the actual engineering.

When the engineers and people with actual know-how start crunching the numbers and designing and building, they realize the ridiculous demands being placed on them for the costs estimated, and soon the entire thing falls flat on their face.

For example, this is exactly how "Airing" and the "Light Phone" seem to be, and I'm sure many others as they all follow the same pattern. The idea sounds good, the marketing is great and they get a pile of people to give their money to the idea. Then they spend the money on trying to develop what they promised (which is often impossible for what they asked for) and after a while everyone realizes it was not possible. 

Everything is being done half-assed backwards.

[tszaboo]

The problem with many of these technology product crowd-funding campaigns is that they are often started by "entrepreneurs" and business people who have an idea and may be great at marketing them and designing the vision, but cannot execute it themselves because they have no idea how the technology works and the limitations and costs involved.

Yes, every time. I see a statement: "It is revolutionary and it will change the way you live" and then a 3D render of the device. Not a block diagram. Not an explanation how it actually works. And people dont understand technology well enough to say: "hey, that will not work!". Can we send data through USB? Sure. Can we attach a screen? Sure. Can we attach a screen, 7 different devices, charge, have a power bank, make it fly, and do it for 150 bucks? Including injection molded parts, custom ASICs for the video output, huge power supply, high speed digital routing, FCC certification, in 5 months (or whatever). I'm not so sure about that.

[Corporate666]

Also, people thinking that organising production run in china is just a few email. The way I see it, you need an office, several people working on QC, several managers, and support engineers people doing overtime due to different time zones. I dont even think that doing production straight in china is profitable. Unless you have a product, that has only off the shelf parts, and maybe a few dozen components.

I think a lot of it depends on how developed the product is, and I think that is where a lot of these KS scampaigns fall short.  Sure, they don't think they are scams, but the creators are so lacking in experience and so willing to gamble with the hard-earned cash of others that it is tantamount to a scam - especially when they falsely represent the status of the project to the backers.  Like this campaign did.  They frame it as "we're all done, just need to fund production", but then the reality is they haven't even finished the design yet, or perhaps even started the design.  They think that is the easy part - and when it goes sideways, they blame it on the factories.

I think KL27x above nailed it... they probably did try to outsource the whole thing to China on a shoestring budget.  They got bottom-of-the-barrel Chinese quality and had no experience or ability to even know what they were paying for.  Sort of like walking into a seedy stock pump-and-dump telemarketing office, plonking down $80k of your friends and families money, then blaming the stock market when they all lose their money.

[Jay_Diddy_B]

Hi,

I thought, and may be I am wrong, that Kickstarter had a higher bar than Indiegogo, and that you were supposed to have a working prototype?

If this is the case this is a clear violation of the policy, because it doesn't seem that a working, and we split hairs on how well it worked, exists.

The lack of photographic evidence is a big red flag to me. Most of the scampaigns rely on computer generated graphics.

They don't say very much about the team on the KS campaign, other than the team is Kickshark.
Kickshark seems to be serial campaigners on crowd funding sites.

Link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kickshark/magicjib-a-seriously-badass-video-motion-tool?token=edc62de6

With the majority of the campaigns unsuccessful or cancelled.

On the Hydradock KS campaign there are a couple of companies listed as partners:



Is Dongguan Win-Win Electrical the alleged bad guys?

I didn't take long to find:

http://www.connectorchina.cn/

who seems to be a connector company.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B