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Products => Crowd Funded Projects => Topic started by: Buga8tr on June 17, 2015, 06:25:18 pm

Title: The Airing
Post by: Buga8tr on June 17, 2015, 06:25:18 pm
Hey all.  I am new here.  I have some field experience repairing electronic devices.  But a couple of things from scratch to make life easier and what not.  So I am not a total newbie.
 
 But I am scratching my head and wondering if anyone has thoughts on this product.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story)

Airing: the first hoseless, maskless, micro-CPAP

My wife uses a CPAP and i just don't see how you can get the air-flow that a big machine produces in such a tiny package.

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: tggzzz on June 17, 2015, 07:56:37 pm
And all the pictures show people with closed mouths.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 17, 2015, 11:43:58 pm
That device is not a CPAP (continuous positive airway pressure). Not even close. It is essentially an "internal" version of the Breathe-Right strips seen here:

https://www.breatheright.com/ (https://www.breatheright.com/)

Both my dad and my son had to use CPAP at some point. I am in the medical profession as well. This device, while it can probably help some people breathe better it is not CPAP and has no excuse trying to market itself as a replacement. The idea behind CPAP and the reason it works to prevent or reduce sleep apnea is because it "blows open" obstructions, usually caused by a narrow airway coupled with hypertonic musculature and excess tissue in the back of the throat.... The same tissue often causing snoring.

During inspiration, the delivery of positive pressure helps to reduce that fold from closing and "chattering" which is what causes the noise. The snore noise is usually on breathing in. If there is greater pressure, there is larger volume flow and the pressure keeps the flaps open. During expiration, it is usually not a big deal to overcome the positive pressure.

In any case, these professional CPAP machines cost a good amount of money, they are medical devices and have to be approved and must have various fail-safes and also settings that are set by a licensed professional that does a sleep study and checks on the exact type of apnea and the machine is prescribed. In fact, at least in Canada we get government insurance to help subsidize some of the cost through the hospital.

So this IndieGogo campaign may actually be dangerous in the way it is marketed. I hope they have a disclaimer like "Please check first with your doctor if this is right for you".

As far as whether the Airing actually does anything.... I'm sure it does. The Breathe-Right strips stick to your nose and there is a metal strip inside which wants to straighten so it essentially flares your nostrils. I have used them and found them to help improve breathing through the nose because I have narrow openings. If there is an obstruction on part of the nose that is surrounded by harder tissue (bone/cartilage) the tissue won't be as expandable and it won't work. But if you put it on the fleshy soft part of your nose near the nostrils it will flare it and may notice better breathing. Many of the football players and other athletes have been seen using the Breathe-Right strips.

But the Breathe-right doesn't claim to replace CPAP machines and cure sleep apnea, which is a complex multi-factorial disease that may have various causes and needs medical diagnosis and therapy. In some places you can even lose your driver's license if you are diagnosed with Sleep Apnea and do not follow the advice of the doctor, because it has been found to contribute to accidents. That forces many people (like truck drivers) to not get tested for fear of then losing their license or be forced to undergo testing and use of the CPAP which is tough to get used to.

The fact that they raised close to $500,000 boggles the mind. However, they are at least cheap. They anticipate it selling for $3 each... they want $135 for 90 Airings... or $1.50 each for founders. That is supposed to be a 90-day supply, although I imagine you can wash them or soak them in some kind of solution, or perhaps boil them and you can use the same ones or cycle through a small batch probably for much longer. If they are made of proper rubber they will probably be usable much longer, so it is not a bad price. I may buy a couple for $3 when they come out in stores but there is no way I'm going to buy 90 of them when I know you will probably be able to re-use them for some time. And they will probably help when you have a cold or some congestion and help you sleep a bit better without opening your mouth at night and getting a dry sore throat because of it.

I can see some issues with irritating the inside of your nostrils from chronic use though. If they have any Latex in them it may also cause allergy. The Breathe-right strips can only be used once usually since the adhesive that sticks to your nose loses its stickiness after you remove it. So I see the appeal for the Airing. BY THE WAY - Breathe Right pack of 30 strips costs about $18 at Wal-Mart, or about 60 cents each. For Airing they want $3 a unit and expect you to use a new one every day so you have to buy a 90-day supply for $270 ?(or $135 IndieGogo price)?

BOTTOM LINE:  While it may be helping you breathe a bit better, on occasional use, it should NOT be marketed or in any way shape or form claim any sort of association with treatment of Apnea and CPAP substitution! I see the comments and people think it is a replacement for CPAP... Oh my god wait until they start to have problems and some people lose their life or crash into others and injure other people because of this claim that it is a CPAP-less cure for Apnea.

(PS - close to half million $$$ in 2 days... with 28 days to go... to get 90 of these at a minimum order? have people lost their mind?)

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 18, 2015, 12:14:40 am
One more thing (excuse my Rant... this stuff ruffles my feathers)....

If you watch their VIDEO on their website:  http://www.fundairing.com/#first-ever-micro-cpap (http://www.fundairing.com/#first-ever-micro-cpap)

The founder clearly says they do not have a working prototype, it even says in the video they write "Non-Working Prototype" when they show it. The entire premise is on these "micro-blowers" working. The founder states in the video that he showed it to some engineer and they said it was theoretically possible to generate the airflow with those micro-pumps.... but they have no working prototype to show it works.

As far as I'm concerned, and please prove me wrong Airing guys... the entire thing is a sham to generate a sufficient amount of capital to begin "development" of a prototype. When they realize (or they already know) it is not going to work as intended, they will market it as a replacement for a Breathe-Right strip with an extra little fan-like air blowing inside so you will think it is doing something. But the micro-blowers need to direct air into one direction. The way it is engineered with 2 electrostatically charged plates moving up and down, there is an equal chance of air entering and exiting from either port. There has to be a valve of some kind put in there to allow air to only blow out in one direction. The amount of power required to move that amount of air for that amount of time can be calculated on the back of an envelope. It is mechanical work. A good fluid or air dynamics or HVAC engineer should be able to figure this out and see what kind of energy is needed to produce "x" pressure on a surface the size of 2 nostrils for 8 hours.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Buga8tr on June 18, 2015, 03:41:12 am
Thanks for confirming what I was thinking.  A few people have suggested this thing to my wife, that's how I heard about it in the first place.  And I was thinking there is no way it could replace her machine. 

It's hard to believe that is has raised  over $500,000 and still has almost a month left on it.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Marco on June 18, 2015, 05:44:44 am
A good fluid or air dynamics or HVAC engineer should be able to figure this out and see what kind of energy is needed to produce "x" pressure on a surface the size of 2 nostrils for 8 hours.

Why? I can just look at a conventional CPAP machine, assume it's 10% efficient, assume this thing is 100% efficient and still be orders of magnitude off from having enough energy in any battery which fits in it.

It's a scammy total bloody scam.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Bob F. on June 18, 2015, 11:34:43 am
The general principle seems to be: Indigogo = probably a scam; Kickstarter = possibly a scam, possibly massive over-reach by the campaign owners (unless it's about "high-end audio" in which case = always a scam). 

Well, people have donated nearly half a million beer-tokens after just 3 days, so they win either way.  Everyone sleeps with their mouth closed these days?  Who knew...   Does no one engage in critical thinking anymore?

(I realise I'm being unfair to all the good Kickstarters etc out there, but hey - when they allow the likes of this and the countless others like it and take their cut of the cash then you have to wonder...)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: bitwelder on June 18, 2015, 12:06:50 pm
Well, people have donated nearly half a million beer-tokens after just 3 days, so they win either way. 
Unless somebody is able to convince KS to withdraw the campaign, because it's in violation of some rule or perhaps because the project might be dangerous. But there is less than a month to find a compelling reason.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rs20 on June 18, 2015, 12:18:11 pm
I wonder... the principle of the CPAP machine is to increase the pressure in the respiratory system by presenting that increased pressure to the nose and mouth. But as us electrical engineers know, all voltages (and pressures*) are relative, so you could expose the entire rest of the body to a negative pressure to achieve the same result. Of course, this would be even more uncomfortable and cumbersome than a traditional CPAP machine - a negative pressure spacesuit with a cutout around the face. But, would the legs and arms need the negative pressure? The crown of the head? The torso? Pure speculation on my part, but is it possible to expose just the neck area to a negative pressure to achieve the same result? Would this be significantly less irritating than a mask? Heck, people voluntarily use neck pillows.

Has this been considered?


* OK, there is such a thing as absolute pressure, but it's irrelevant here.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Bob F. on June 18, 2015, 12:21:46 pm
I wonder... the principle of the CPAP machine is to increase the pressure in the respiratory system by presenting that increased pressure to the nose and mouth. But as us electrical engineers know, all voltages (and pressures*) are relative, so you could expose the entire rest of the body to a negative pressure to achieve the same result. Of course, this would be even more uncomfortable and cumbersome than a traditional CPAP machine - a negative pressure spacesuit with a cutout around the face. But, would the legs and arms need the negative pressure? The crown of the head? The torso? Pure speculation on my part, but is it possible to expose just the neck area to a negative pressure to achieve the same result? Would this be significantly less irritating than a mask? Heck, people voluntarily use neck pillows.

Has this been considered?


* OK, there is such a thing as absolute pressure, but it's irrelevant here.

Sounds like you have the beginnings of a successfull Indigogo campaign right there!  >:D
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 18, 2015, 04:56:49 pm
The subject of obstructive sleep apnea is complex. There are entire fields of medicine and respiratory therapy and neuroscience dedicated to it. As much as I'd love for this tiny little battery-powered nose-ventilator to work (much like Solar Roadways and Anti-gravity machines and so on)... the unfortunately REALITY is that we just DON'T KNOW. Based on what I have seen from the Airing campaign, the founders DON'T KNOW EITHER.... but they still produce a nice looking little prototype and sell the idea based on encouragement from an MIT guy (who they never the mention the name of) that said the numbers say it's possible.

Yet a few seconds later in the video he says he needs the money to develop the actual blowers and engineers to do the actual hard stuff.

There is a simple way to debunk the entire thing:

1. Are blowers even available? Or are they trying to invent what they show in the video?
2. If the blowers are available, they can easily test TODAY using even a rudimentary device how much pressure and air-flow they can produce, and the power consumed.... on a lab-bench.
3. Let's assume the lab-bench test shows it is possible.... Can they miniaturize it all to remotely appear like that nose-plug device? Can it be powered by a couple of Zinc-Oxide hearing aid batteries (which unfortunately I am also all too familiar with).
4. How much capacity is in a Zinc-Oxide hearing-aid style battery? What is the amp-hour rating and what is the maximum discharge rate capable?

For hearing aids, a Zinc-Oxide under typical usage for say 14-16 hours a day (hearing aids opened at night) the batteries typically last over 1 week.  Can you force 2 of these batteries to complete discharge in 8 hours over-night, or is there a limit on the max amperage they can handle? The whole point of Zinc-Oxide batteries is that they work differently from Lithium Ion and Alkaline, which makes them ideally suited for these types of low-consumption medical devices like hearing aids. I also have rechargeable hearing aid batteries but they do not last more than 1 day in that size.

Zinc-Oxide batteries also have a decay curve the minute you tear the oxygen seal off them, they allow oxygen in and they will expire. That's why you need to have them air-tight until ready to use. My wife made the mistake of removing the plastic seals from a couple of them and carried them in her purse for "backup" purposes, and after a few weeks realized they were no good.

So the idea behind the Airing is that it will probably come with built-in batteries that then have a seal somewhere that needs to be peeled to expose the hole to allow oxygen into the battery.

Finally, if they can manage to do all of this in a $3 retail device (as they claim) I will be completely blown away. Heck, I'd buy boxes of them just to hack them and use for other purposes! Can you imagine having micro-blowers, a micro-chip on PCB, a couple of Zinc-Oxide batteries, plus all the rubber/plastic moulding and packaging, all for $3 a piece retail (which they claim is their target price) and allow them to still turn a profit? The IndieGogo price turns out to $1.50 a piece.

A quick search online shows 8 hearing aid batteries (Duracell) for about $15... or $2 each. That's expensive. Specialized sites will sell you 60 batteries for about $20, so that's 33 cents a piece.... Much better. But the micro-blowers (which I have yet to understand... even if they have been invented) have got to cost a fortune. The only micro-blowers I have seen are piezo-electric ones from Murata which seem to be doing a good job:

http://www.mouser.com/new/Murata/muratamicroblowers/ (http://www.mouser.com/new/Murata/muratamicroblowers/)

See spec sheet here:

http://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/MZB1001T02_ver6.PDF (http://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/MZB1001T02_ver6.PDF)

The spec-sheet for the above blower requires a sinusoidal generator of 10-20 volts. According to CPAP machine specs, they usually want 6-20 mmH20 pressure and flow rates of 20-60 L/min. Let's say 10 mm H20. That is 0.1 kPascal. According to the Murata specsheet at 10Vpp they can get a pressure of 0.1 kPa at 0.5 L/min flow. If you use 20Vpp you can't even reach 1.5 L/min at a pressure of 0.1 kPa.

Again, it really all depends on this new-fangled micro-blower tech they are showing in the video. I can't find anything about it and certainly there has to be some work involved moving that volume of air under that pressure because remember it is not only about pressure. Even if you could create the pressure in a tiny volume, the minute you breathe in you have expanded the available space multiple times and the air just diffuses and pressure completely dissipates. You need the flow and volume constantly being pumped in order to pressurize the entire throat/lung system. Not to mention the amount of energy required to carry out all that work.... Not something you can accomplish the whole night with a couple of tiny batteries.

Here's a thought... if anyone has a Quadcopter, remove your batteries and instead strap on a bunch of Zinc-Air batteries as a replacement and see how much of a difference there is. If these batteries are able to pack that much more punch in the same volume and weight, let us know how it performs in comparison.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rolycat on June 18, 2015, 05:03:38 pm
You have to admit it's an appropriate name. Entirely made from gas and vapour.

Also strangely reminiscent of the Airnergy (http://www.eevblog.com/2010/01/17/eevblog-55-rca-airnergy-wifi-hotspot-energy-harvesting-marketing-bs/), another revolutionary device that unaccountably failed to materialise.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mtdoc on June 18, 2015, 05:27:11 pm
Typical CPAP pressures are around 10 cm H2O.  Unless this device can produce that kind of pressure and maintain it through the night, it's worthless.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 18, 2015, 06:36:21 pm
My understanding is that also the pressure has to be measured by the device itself in a feedback loop, since it is affected by holes in the system that leak the air. The idea is to entirely pressurize the system (nose, mouth, pharynx, lung) to whatever the prescribed setting is 6mm H20 up to 20mm H20 for most home machines.

Let's say average is 10mm H20. The air is being blown into the mask at a certain rate to maintain a pressure of 10mm H20 which is being sensed within the machine tube. If there is more volume inspired or less, or if there are more leaks, the machine blower changes rate to compensate for the loss of pressure via leakage, to maintain the desired pressure setting.

The idea of the pressure in the nose is to overcome the obstruction when breathing in.... usually the soft palate and tongue which fall on the back of the throat and block the air. Your lungs alone can't produce enough "negative" pressure to overcome this blockage, and it only gets worse as you lower the lung pressure (while trying to expand your lungs and therefore same amount of air in a larger volume) it can make the soft palate/tongue tissue stick even more. Hence, you need to push it open from the outside to eliminate that "valve-like" effect from the soft-tissue. By pressurizing the incoming air, it will push open the obstruction of the tissue and let air pass through, avoiding excessive work by the lung muscles which may not have enough ability due to volume changes and internal air pressures to do it alone.

So this Airing says nothing about actually monitoring the pressures and adjusting flow to compensate. Once again, the more you understand the principles behind CPAP, the more flaws are found. Nevermind the BIG engineering questions as to how it is even remotely possible to achieve the kind of air pressure/flow volumes required for 8 hours of sleep using tiny blowers and batteries.

IF you had told me the Airing was like an in-the-nose version of the Breathe-Right strip, I would have said GREAT! Send me some! I would have believed them.

But once they started with this microblower CPAP replacement stuff.... Whoah! Like Dave said (perhaps quoting Carl Sagan)... "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Let's see the evidence... Let's see those multi-parallel micro-blowers in action and then you can have my money. Until then, how do I know they will not spend $1,000,000 on simply trying to develop micro-blowers and in 2-3 years still not have done anything remotely close to being strong enough to make Airing a reality? Remember we are funding their research into something that may be possible according to calculations done by an unnamed MIT person.... who is not even part of their team.

I think the whole thing is a rouse to get enough capital into the hands of Stephen Marsh to work on the engineering and patent of his microblower technology (the charged plate capacitor bellows system)... with CPAP as an after-thought. He has to see if this will even work. Why he doesn't already have a working prototype of just one micro-blower is beyond me.

The perk delivery date is July 2017.... Yes, 2 years from now! So for 2 years they will pretend they are doing stuff with your money and either spend it all on a fruitless pursuit, or if they are wise and not completely callous they will invest it in some relatively stable securities and skim all the interest they can gain in 2 years... Giving back the original funders their money dollar-for-dollar, while they keep all the higher-interest-earned rates from that huge bulk of money sitting in an offshore bank somwhere.

Anatomy of a soon-to-be crowd-funding scam:  Promise "X", take money "Y"... invest it for 2 years... get "Y" + Z% interest in 2 years. Can't deliver "X", sorry, refund everyone "Y" and keep Z%. Nice rate of return on someone else's money. Even better.... use "Y" to buy a house in a hot growing market and actually live in it for 2 years, then sell it to return everyone's funding, but keep the profit from the home value growth. 
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mtdoc on June 18, 2015, 07:08:48 pm
No need for this device. All it takes is a little suction..... :palm:

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 18, 2015, 07:18:13 pm
No need for this device. All it takes is a little suction..... :palm:

I could make a lewd comment... but I won't go there.  ;D


Speaking of dental appliances to help with sleep apnea, yes there are tongue and jaw repositioners but once again obstructive sleep apnea is a complex disorder which needs to be properly diagnosed. All of these appliances should be followed up with a sleep study to test if they actually work. If your dentist fabricates something like this, how do you know it really works unless you are monitored again?

How many people who get an Airing will undergo another sleep study to check if it is actually working? Most will just be so happy to be done with their bulky face masks that they will be self-deluded into thinking it works, and avoid having it independently verified for fear of being told that it isn't working and they need to wear the full face mask again.

They are poised to make a truckload of money though... so if they can't pull this off, I don't think anyone will sweep it under the rug. They have over $500,000 in only 3 days... how much can they gather in the remaining 27 days? Anyone taking bets? $2 million? $3 million? What do you think?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 19, 2015, 06:26:45 pm
I sent this letter to Airing (who are now close to surpassing $600,000 in 4 days and have 27 days left in their campaign). We'll see what kind of response I'll get. Here is my email to them at their preferred contact address contact@fundairing.com:

Quote
Hello,

I'm interested in learning more about your micro-blower "bellows"
technology. Is a prototype already developed on the scale you are
considering? Are you just trying to determine a way to mass-produce it
cheaply? Or are you still testing out the concept of using
charged-plates in that micro-blower design to see if it can drive air?
I'm curious to know whether any actual lab prototype (no matter how
crude) has actually been produced and used to actually measure
performance.

I am intrigued by the design. I think a valve will still be required
to direct air flow in one direction. Will you have any feedback sensor
in the Airing to adjust for pressure that will change the speed of the
micro-blowers? Also, will users of the Airing still be recommended to
undergo a sleep study using the device to see if it is actually
performing as designed and helping the apnea.

I look forward to hearing from you.


By the way, if you look at their perks, so far they have promised...

$199 level: 48 x 120 Airings = 5,760
$70 level: 447 x 30 Airings = 13,410
$95 level: 293 x 45 Airings = 13,185
$135 level: 2000 x 90 Airings = 180,000
$145 level: 40 x 7 Airings = 280
$155 level: 28 x 90 Airings = 2,520
$270 level: 15 x 180 Airings = 2,700
==========================
TOTAL: 217,855 Airings in just 4 days.

By the end of this campaign, depending on the perk levels how many Airings will they be on the hook for? Remember, many of these are "coupons vouchers" which will let them exchange for the Airings. But if everyone tries to redeem their coupons all at once....

That's some massive manufacturing.

Didn't someone say KickStarter and IndieGogo were not supposed to be for building a business, but helping to carry out a focused project?  Sounds like this is just Venture-Capital raising to start R&D on a possibility of maybe getting a product down the road. The risk has to be HUGE, at least much much higher than what I believe people being crowd-sourced are being led to believe.

They say on their IndieGogo page "WHAT WILL WE DO WITH YOUR MONEY":

Quote
Airing will use your money to accelerate the execution of our development plan. We will be able to expand our technical staff and get access to the equipment and materials critical to building a working prototype of our micro-blowers, which we can then test. The more we raise, the more resources we can deploy to speed this technology into the hands of the people who need it.

Basically, the money is to develop a micro-blower which they still have no idea if it will work, so they can test it and then tell everyone that it fails to meet the goals of the project. Several millions dumped into R&D and sorry to all the funders, your money has been put to good use! "We worked hard to try and bring our dream to reality but physics didn't agree with it. Sorry but it was a valiant effort, thanks to all who supported us!" - Airing LLC (prediction)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 19, 2015, 07:01:28 pm
Here is an old article from Boston Business Journal on the inventor of Airing Stephen Marsh. Not sure if it is the same guy.... but pieces seem to all fit together. What ever happened to "Encite"?

http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/blog/mass-high-tech/2011/03/stealthy-fuel-cell-startup-encite-raises-650k.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/boston/blog/mass-high-tech/2011/03/stealthy-fuel-cell-startup-encite-raises-650k.html)

Also here is a list of patents attributed to Stephen Marsh on a site that aggregates it:

http://patents.justia.com/inventor/stephen-marsh (http://patents.justia.com/inventor/stephen-marsh)

It seems to fit the profile of the Airing inventor. Could it be the same guy?

Here is some more background about how Encite purchased assets from another company IFCT which he owned and went bankrupt. So perhaps he was using the funds to escape bankrupcy from another company, switch names and continue forward to shed creditors:

http://mandalitigationcommentary.blogspot.ca/2008/09/can-founder-director-and-30-stockholder.html (http://mandalitigationcommentary.blogspot.ca/2008/09/can-founder-director-and-30-stockholder.html)

Here's what it says:

Quote
Echelon Ventures, L.P. and affiliates (“Echelon”) invested in Integrated Fuel Cell Technologies, Inc., a Delaware corporation (“IFCT”). Founder, former CEO, director, and 30% stockholder Stephen Marsh is the focus of this decision. IFCT failed and went into bankruptcy, and Marsh and friends formed Encite to purchase its assets.

So Marsh starts company IFCT, gets money from Echelon, then when it fails he declares bankruptcy to not have to pay back his investors. But instead he gets together with a group of his friends to start a new company Encite, which then purchases (around the back of his investors) all the assets of failed IFCT, so he can carry on business under a new name while shedding all obligations to his previous backers.

So I wonder, is this the same Stephen Marsh that is part of Airing?


YES it seems to be the same folks... Look here at this profile page for Encite:

http://www.bloomberg.com/Research/stocks/private/relationship.asp?personId=54549688&privcapId=52669974&previousCapId=4371726&previousTitle=Integrated%20Fuel%20Cell%20Technologies,%20Inc. (http://www.bloomberg.com/Research/stocks/private/relationship.asp?personId=54549688&privcapId=52669974&previousCapId=4371726&previousTitle=Integrated%20Fuel%20Cell%20Technologies,%20Inc.)

There is a Philip M. Huyck, same guy on the Airing Blog and website who is seen speaking in the video. Marsh and Huyck are current members of Encite and now they are gathering capital for Airing, they seem to have already failed on another company (not even sure what Encite was making).
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 20, 2015, 03:11:01 pm
Fascinating story.... A little more into Encite and Marsh and the case between him and the venture capitalists that funded his failed fuel-cell startup (also PDF attached):

http://law.justia.com/cases/delaware/court-of-chancery/2011/ca-2476-vcg.html (http://law.justia.com/cases/delaware/court-of-chancery/2011/ca-2476-vcg.html)

Here are the first few paragraphs:

Quote
This case involves a claim for breach of the fiduciary duty of loyalty. At the center of this dispute are the assets (mostly intellectual property) of Integrated Fuel Cell Technologies, Inc. (“IFCT” or the “Company”), a nowdefunct tech startup company founded by Stephen Marsh to develop potentially revolutionary micro fuel cell technology. This technology, if perfected, could have replaced batteries in portable electronic devices such as cell phones and laptops. Despite several rounds of financing, IFCT was never able to develop the technology into a commercially viable product, and the Company never produced a consistent stream of revenue. This was a problem, of course, for IFCT’s investors, particularly Echelon Ventures, L.P. (“Echelon”), a Boston-area venture capitalist firm that was IFCT’s principal investor and a holder of the majority of the Company’s preferred stock. Since investing in IFCT, Echelon had worked consistently to reduce Marsh’s influence at IFCT.

As IFCT approached insolvency, it became apparent to IFCT’s board that a sale of the Company’s assets was the only viable solution. The board, which consisted of two Echelon-appointed directors, Marsh, an independent director, and the CEO, conducted a bidding process to sell IFCT’s assets. The Company received several bids, but the major bids at issue in this case came from a group of investors organized by Marsh and from a group of investors organized by Echelon. Several of the investors in Marsh’s group (notably including Marsh himself) went on to form Encite LLC (“Encite”), the plaintiff in this case. Echelon’s group comprised individuals and entities that had participated in a bridge loan to finance the sale of IFCT’s assets, and most of these participants were holders of the same class of preferred stock as Echelon.

The bidding process lasted about five months, and the board eventually approved the Echelon-backed bid. Marsh believed that the rest of the board had not adequately considered, or had wrongfully rejected, the Marsh-backed bid. While the CEO was working out a consent solicitation with IFCT’s lawyers to send to the stockholders, Marsh informed the stockholders that they were about to be sent a bid approved by interested directors, and that superior bids had been ignored or cursorily negotiated. Based on a leaked draft consent solicitation and at Marsh’s direct urging, an IFCT stockholder and friend of Marsh’s filed a derivative suit. Apparently this was the last straw in the Marsh-Echelon relationship, a relationship that had been difficult since its inception. The board withdrew the Echelonbacked offer, and all of its members besides Marsh quickly resigned. Marsh, then the sole director of IFCT, instead of pursuing any outstanding offers, took the company into bankruptcy, wherein the Marsh-led group of investors (Encite) submitted the winning bid for IFCT’s assets, beating out a competing Echelon-backed bid.

Having secured the intellectual property of IFCT for himself and facing the opportunity to start over with the technology he had created, Marsh could have continued on his way, content with his victory over the venture capitalist firm that from the outset had tried to force him out of any position of power in IFCT. Instead of taking his victory to the bank and proceeding to develop his nascent fuel cell technology, Marsh decided that the best course was to continue his struggle with his former fellow board members and Echelon, and he filed this suit alleging that the Director Defendants breached their fiduciary duties to IFCT, abetted by Echelon.

In the end, if you read the entire PDF, you see an interesting story of corporate-legal shenanigans. Bottom line is Marsh may have learned his lesson and decided to go through crowd-funding to avoid all the legal hassles. If things don't go through, he is unlikely to face anywhere close to the same legal costs and challenges. He is free to do as he pleases along with some of his friends who were also part of the IFCT/Encite defunct tech start-up that he put into bankruptcy.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 20, 2015, 04:42:48 pm
Here is the answer to my question to Airing. They replied fairly quickly, I am surprised. Will I eat my words? Will my pessimism and skepticism be proven wrong? Only time will tell...

Quote
Thank you for your email.  Our technology is quite intriguing and as you have noticed, we have shown an over-simplified version of it in our video and with other information that we have shared. This was intentional and we have been advised not to disclose additional information at this time. We invite you to stay tuned to further developments if you care to support us as a founder.

Also a good way to circumvent any real debate. Seems like a side-step and politically correct answer that sneakily avoids giving out anything substantial.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: eas on June 20, 2015, 11:09:06 pm
I wonder... the principle of the CPAP machine is to increase the pressure in the respiratory system by presenting that increased pressure to the nose and mouth. But as us electrical engineers know, all voltages (and pressures*) are relative, so you could expose the entire rest of the body to a negative pressure to achieve the same result. Of course, this would be even more uncomfortable and cumbersome than a traditional CPAP machine - a negative pressure spacesuit with a cutout around the face. But, would the legs and arms need the negative pressure? The crown of the head? The torso? Pure speculation on my part, but is it possible to expose just the neck area to a negative pressure to achieve the same result? Would this be significantly less irritating than a mask? Heck, people voluntarily use neck pillows.

Has this been considered?

* OK, there is such a thing as absolute pressure, but it's irrelevant here.

What you are describing sounds a lot like an Iron Lung, only more oppressive.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 21, 2015, 03:29:54 am
An iron lung is best known for its use during the height of the Polio era when the virus paralyzed the diaphragm and other muscles required for breathing. It essentially created a negative external pressure on the torso which due to normal pressure able to enter through the mouth caused expansion of the lungs. It was like doing CPR chest compression in a way. At least it allowed for some gas to be exchanged.

Sleep apnea is not so dramatic. People can breath, their lungs function. The passage is mostly open. More "suction" by expansion of the lungs isn't the issue. In fact it just makes the soft-tissue from the back of the throat and tongue clamp down further. People in that state can be heard gasping for air... the lungs are working harder and harder to expand but the path is blocked. So no amount of negative pressure in the lung will work. That will simply collapse the airway even further. You need to blow open the obstruction from the other side and pressurize the lung so it is working in a different "range" of pressure that isn't as susceptible. Think of it as using the same voltage range but with a bias introduced.... no longer ground referenced but floating at a higher level.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 22, 2015, 03:19:41 am
I found the Encite Corp website here... It is pretty amateurish looking:

www.encitecorp.com (http://www.encitecorp.com)

There is a domain registration info here attributed to Stephen Marsh for a site called www.cpapnia.com (http://www.cpapnia.com):

http://wa-com.com/cpapnia.com (http://wa-com.com/cpapnia.com)

Notice it lists Stephen Marsh's email address as stephen@encitecorp.com along with the Burlington MA address also stated as headquarters of the Airing project:

Quote
Domain Name: CPAPNIA.COM
Registry Domain ID: 1857116564_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.networksolutions.com
Registrar URL: http://networksolutions.com (http://networksolutions.com)
Updated Date: 2015-01-29T01:58:27Z
Creation Date: 2014-05-02T20:08:19Z
Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2017-05-02T04:00:00Z
Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
Registrar IANA ID: 2
Registrar Abuse Contact Email: abuse@web.com
Registrar Abuse Contact Phone: +1.8003337680
Reseller:
Domain Status:
Registry Registrant ID:
Registrant Name: Marsh, Stephen
Registrant Organization: Encite, LLC
Registrant Street: 41 Second Avenue
Registrant City: Burlington
Registrant State/Province: MA
Registrant Postal Code: 01803
Registrant Country: US
Registrant Phone: +1.7814240971
Registrant Phone Ext:
Registrant Fax:
Registrant Fax Ext:
Registrant Email: stephen@encitecorp.com
Registry Admin ID:
Admin Name: Marsh, Stephen
Admin Organization: Encite, LLC
Admin Street: 41 Second Avenue
Admin City: Burlington
Admin State/Province: MA
Admin Postal Code: 01803
Admin Country: US
Admin Phone: +1.7814240971
Admin Phone Ext:
Admin Fax:
Admin Fax Ext:
Admin Email: stephen@encitecorp.com
Registry Tech ID:
Tech Name: Marsh, Stephen
Tech Organization: Encite, LLC
Tech Street: 41 Second Avenue
Tech City: Burlington
Tech State/Province: MA
Tech Postal Code: 01803
Tech Country: US
Tech Phone: +1.7814240971
Tech Phone Ext:
Tech Fax:
Tech Fax Ext:
Tech Email: stephen@encitecorp.com
Name Server: NS71.WORLDNIC.COM
Name Server: NS72.WORLDNIC.COM
DNSSEC: Unsigned
URL of the ICANN WHOIS Data Problem Reporting System: http://wdprs.internic.net/ (http://wdprs.internic.net/)
>>> Last update of whois database: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 12:43:37 GMT <<<

That encitecorp.com site looks pretty bad. I don't think it was updated since 2006. I bet cpapnia.com was being considered as an alternate name to Airing. It is now a landing page under construction having links to CPAP supplies.

Quite a mystery... I truly hope they have some breakthrough as they say.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: NoItAint on June 22, 2015, 03:54:08 am
Medical scams are the worst.
 :palm:

CPAP works.  It's science based medicine.  Studies have shown health benefits.
Hospitals use them now and less people die or have to have a hose shoved down their throat.

This fake device might keep someone who needs help from seeing a doctor and getting help from real CPAP, BiPAP, or other sleep problems.  Even breathRight strips, or similar, maybe some people should go see a doctor first.

The claim that CPAP is full face mask for everybody is false.   It's true, some people need a full face mask for CPAP to work for them.  This scam device would never help them.   Others, can get by with nose pillows.  There's a strap that goes around the head to hold the nose pillows in place.  These things shows some big in nose grippers to hold in place.   If this thing has CPAP pressures some people are going to need big grippers in their nostrils.  Forget that crap.

I have a feeling that most people buying these are going to resell them on non-regulated websites to poor souls using Dr. Google for help with their ailments.  These secondary scammers are what's driving this.

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 22, 2015, 04:21:53 am
Marsh has these others registered as well (besides cpapnia and encitecorp):

airingllc.com (http://airingllc.com) (under construction)


l _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ w.com (according to a reverse lookup but I can't make out the name).

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: jadew on June 22, 2015, 08:01:21 pm
Obvious scam.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 25, 2015, 01:59:00 am
$668,000 in 10 days... over 6x their funding goal ("Flexible" funding which apparently means even if they didn't reach $100,000 they could keep whatever they took in). Makes you wonder, if they had taken in $70,000 would they have still had enough for all the R&D to make a go of it?

I am enjoying to watch this campaign. Thanks to the original poster for announcing it here. 21 days left... I can't wait to see what happens. This will be a fun one to watch.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: dadler on June 25, 2015, 03:03:47 am
Not far off: http://youtu.be/bSR3h1wUoS8 (http://youtu.be/bSR3h1wUoS8)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 25, 2015, 05:45:44 pm
dadler.... That video was hilarious! Thanks for sharing!  :-DD

The Airing also has something called FLEXIBLE FUNDING which I mentioned a couple posts ago. That should be a huge warning.  :palm:

Look at this article titled "Why ‘Flexible Funding’ Campaigns on IndieGoGo are Dangerous":

http://timidmonster.com/why-flexible-funding-campaigns-on-indiegogo-are-dangerous/ (http://timidmonster.com/why-flexible-funding-campaigns-on-indiegogo-are-dangerous/)

Obviously nobody seems to have caught that or knows enough to read between the lines. We already have an engineering issue, a flexible funding red-flag issue, a project creator with previously failed start-up lawsuit and dubious business practice (Encite LLC). How much more does it take for people to get the message?

... Oh that's right, they AREN'T getting the message because they never bothered to scrutinize it at all or look around the web for other opinions. They just threw money at it with blind hope... Sad especially when people suffering with this medical condition are grasping for any hope of an alternative. Seeing by some of the IndieGoGo comments, some backers are having a hard time getting refunds as well. Not sure how that works... I thought it was automatic.


These guys are doing so well sucking up people's money, that they are running out of ideas on Perks! This survey was put up by Airing in the last few days to ask for suggestions on additional perks:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/MDYZ2QL (https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/MDYZ2QL)

Unbelievable!  :palm:
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 29, 2015, 12:26:44 pm
Quick update....

They are at $707,427 USD which is 7x their goal, in 14 days. They have 17 days to go. Will they reach 1 million?

People are asking for stretch goals. Also I noticed someone commenting about a refund and then the comment disappeared. Not sure if the backer erased it after they were refunded or if Airing can take it down themselves. Still watching this campaign in awe.... Can't wait to see what happens.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 02, 2015, 06:41:02 pm
Another quick update:  They are at $726,782 USD with 2 weeks to go. Vastly exceeding their $100,000 flexible funding goal. People still don't get it, although a few more comments have come in finally asking the same questions we did here in our thread long ago.

I just realized that the PERKS are actually vouchers for when Airings become available. They do not promise anyone an Airing directly. Does that mean, they can technically claim they delivered to their backers (and meet IndieGogo guidelines) as long as they send them a piece of paper (voucher)? And not the actual product? Hmmm.... :palm:
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 05, 2015, 07:18:37 pm
Not content with having scammed now over $760,000 from backers and 760% of their funding goal, Airing has announced a new contest to help backers scam their friends as well:

Quote
Win A Year's Supply Of Airings!

Starting today and ending on July 7, 2015 at midnight EST, anyone who has contributed to the Airing campaign can win free Airing devices by sharing the Airing campaign with friends. The more your friends contribute to the campaign, the more Airing devices you can win. Maybe even a year's supply.

Prizes:

Raise $500 from your friends and you get 10 free Airing devices.

Raise $750 from your friends and you get 20 free Airing devices.

Raise $1,000 from your friends and you get 30 free Airing devices.

Raise $1,250 from your friends and you get 40 free Airing devices.

Grand prize: raise the most money during the contest period (now through July 7, 2015 at midnight EST) and win a full year's supply, or 365 Airing devices! To win this grand prize, the winner must not only raise the most money, but raise a minimum of $3,000.

10 days left on this campaign. No blog rebuttals or anything close to what is seen against Holus (which is actually a real product) yet Airing has no major skeptic and IndieGogo likely ignoring all abuse/scam reports. Will be following this one for 2 years...
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Nerull on July 05, 2015, 09:39:05 pm
I wonder... the principle of the CPAP machine is to increase the pressure in the respiratory system by presenting that increased pressure to the nose and mouth. But as us electrical engineers know, all voltages (and pressures*) are relative, so you could expose the entire rest of the body to a negative pressure to achieve the same result. Of course, this would be even more uncomfortable and cumbersome than a traditional CPAP machine - a negative pressure spacesuit with a cutout around the face. But, would the legs and arms need the negative pressure? The crown of the head? The torso? Pure speculation on my part, but is it possible to expose just the neck area to a negative pressure to achieve the same result? Would this be significantly less irritating than a mask? Heck, people voluntarily use neck pillows.

Has this been considered?


* OK, there is such a thing as absolute pressure, but it's irrelevant here.

You mean like these?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Iron_Lung_ward-Rancho_Los_Amigos_Hospital.gif)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rs20 on July 05, 2015, 10:46:03 pm
You mean like these?

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/Iron_Lung_ward-Rancho_Los_Amigos_Hospital.gif)

Absolutely, except less ruggedly constructed and only applying the negative pressure to whichever area of the skin is relevant. Again, it might perhaps be as simple as a neck pillow outfitted with suction of some sort. Feasibility depends entirely on where this collapsing airway is, and how/where that collapsing pressure is being coupled in through the skin.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 06, 2015, 04:59:28 am
Thanks to some "anonymous" backer by the name of Billie Joe Bob, this comment has appeared a couple hours ago on the Airing campaign (although I doubt it will make much difference, it is something):

Quote
Billie JoeBob
2 hours ago
My opinions: Tiny fans probably can’t generate the necessary pressure, and if they could, tiny batteries could not provide the necessary current for one night. Conventional CPAP masks do not use prongs that fit inside nostrils — they might be painful and might not hold much pressure. CPAP manufacturers constantly improve their devices, and probably would have already invented this sort of thing, if feasible. Beware — there is no prototype. I donated $5 so I could make a public comment.

And just when you thought the media was done with it, here is a CBS local TV news story from a few days ago:

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/07/02/burlington-company-hopes-airing-device-will-revolutionize-sleep-apnea-treatment/ (http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/07/02/burlington-company-hopes-airing-device-will-revolutionize-sleep-apnea-treatment/)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Richard Crowley on July 06, 2015, 05:36:30 am
And just when you thought the media was done with it, here is a CBS local TV news story from a few days ago...

Must have been a slow news day and their press release was on top of the pile at the moment.
Even national and international news operations lack reporters or editors with ANY scientific or technical knowledge.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rs20 on July 06, 2015, 06:22:40 am
To be clear, I do think this is a scam, but I'm struggling to convincingly technically debunk it (or at least, debunk it as comprehensively as Solar Roadways).

CPAP pressure = 10mm H2O = 13.5 millibar 10cm H2O = 9.8 millibar
Resting breathing rate = 7.5 L per minute
Sleep time = 8 hours
Energy density of an Li-ion battery = Up to 620 W·h/L

a*b*c/d = 2.17 1.58 cubic centimeter  (https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=7.5+litres+per+minute+*+9.8+millibar+*+8+hours+%2F+(620+watts+*+1+hour+%2F+1+litre))battery to power the device for a night.

Now, reasons why this estimate will be conservative: inefficiency in motors, friction, inefficiency of pump mechanism, etc. Can we put hard numbers of any of these factors? I can't off the top of my head, I don't know HVAC.  Reasons why the estimate might be liberal could be if they manage to achieve energy regeneration on exhalation, which seems extremely ambitions but not impossible.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: fcb on July 06, 2015, 09:03:06 am
My dad used a CPAP for a number of years, and I tried it on once or twice - the amount of pressure it generated was surprising.  It was also fantastically awkward to wear.

So whilst I think there is merit in carrying out research into the micro CPAP concept, there is NO WAY the unit they have shown is going to work, and they must know that.

Now if they have managed to make something more comfortable than a standard CPAP mask & hose - but are struggling with the battery, why not just use a cable (or wireless power...)?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 06, 2015, 10:59:53 am
The entire campaign is emphasizing that people are buying the devices, when really the emphasis is that you are donating to research on building and testing micro-blower technology which doesn't exist at all.

Even if there has been a breakthrough in micro-blowers, surely the creator Stephen Marsh (who already has an interesting history, see earlier posts in this thread) could have made even the most crude prototype.

The best micro-blowers today are fan or piezo based and do create pressures but move a tiny volume of air. This Airing campaign is a huge money sinkhole for Marsh to either do nothing and run with the money, or spend it over the next few years (with a nice salary of course) on a "moonshot" project whose real risk of producing nothing is very conveniently being buried by the campaign and all who report it. Backers all seem to think the device exists or is close to existing and is proven and that in 2 years they will be getting a voucher in the mail to pick up their free Airings.

Now as a purely passive device like Breathe-right strip, the Airing could probably hold your nose open. But my concern is that it is being sold as a CPAP replacement and has taken advantage of a desperate population looking to grasp on to anything, by a guy who has a shoddy business history which has amounted to a previous bankruptcy with nothing to show for it.

Any HVAC thermodynamics engineer should be able to calculate the energy required to sustain thus kind of pressure with volumes of air worth breathing for 8 hours. We have 2 years... I will read up on my old books and try to post something here, as a personal challenge and to learn something.

I hope this is real, my dad and my son both had experience with CPAP, I may be next. We both had the clunky big machines. But Airing sounds too good to be true, it probably is
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mikerj on July 06, 2015, 11:59:58 am
To be clear, I do think this is a scam, but I'm struggling to convincingly technically debunk it (or at least, debunk it as comprehensively as Solar Roadways).

Ignoring the (lack of) availability of fans that can produce the pressure and airflow requirements in a suitable form factor and the power source for these fans, one absolutely fundamental issue is that there is nothing to stop all the air coming straight out of the wearers mouth rather than into their lungs.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: fcb on July 06, 2015, 02:32:32 pm
Mikerj - yes, I was wondering that - but I don't know enough about CPAP theory to know if that is a problem, and assumed that if that is a flaw it is so blindingly obvious that it would have zero'ed the development before it began.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Richard Crowley on July 06, 2015, 04:07:15 pm
NONE of the crucial technology this gadget depends on is viable.  This cannot be anything but a complete scam.   :palm:
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 06, 2015, 10:25:21 pm

This is the reason it is pointless to argue with backers:

Quote
Pete Williams
17 hours ago
Thanks for your “opinions” Billie JoeBob. Now take your fake name and $5 and go back to working for whatever giant CPAP company you work for. We don’t need industry moles trying kill off this great invention that will hopefully rescue us from those brutal masks and tubes you’ve got us tied to. I’m sure you would love to do to Airing what Big Auto did to the electric car, but there are clearly thousands of us willing to bet a few bucks on something better.





Thanks to some "anonymous" backer by the name of Billie Joe Bob, this comment has appeared a couple hours ago on the Airing campaign (although I doubt it will make much difference, it is something):

Quote
Billie JoeBob
2 hours ago
My opinions: Tiny fans probably can’t generate the necessary pressure, and if they could, tiny batteries could not provide the necessary current for one night. Conventional CPAP masks do not use prongs that fit inside nostrils — they might be painful and might not hold much pressure. CPAP manufacturers constantly improve their devices, and probably would have already invented this sort of thing, if feasible. Beware — there is no prototype. I donated $5 so I could make a public comment.

And just when you thought the media was done with it, here is a CBS local TV news story from a few days ago:

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/07/02/burlington-company-hopes-airing-device-will-revolutionize-sleep-apnea-treatment/ (http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/07/02/burlington-company-hopes-airing-device-will-revolutionize-sleep-apnea-treatment/)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: hamster_nz on July 07, 2015, 04:45:14 am
To be clear, I do think this is a scam, but I'm struggling to convincingly technically debunk it (or at least, debunk it as comprehensively as Solar Roadways).

CPAP pressure = 10mm H2O = 13.5 millibar
Resting breathing rate = 7.5 L per minute
Sleep time = 8 hours
Energy density of an Li-ion battery = Up to 620 W·h/L

a*b*c/d = 2.17 cubic centimeter  (https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=7.5+litres+per+minute+*+13.5+millibar+*+8+hours+%2F+(620+watts+*+1+hour+%2F+1+litre))battery to power the device for a night.

Now, reasons why this estimate will be conservative: inefficiency in motors, friction, inefficiency of pump mechanism, etc. Can we put hard numbers of any of these factors? I can't off the top of my head, I don't know HVAC.  Reasons why the estimate might be liberal could be if they manage to achieve energy regeneration on exhalation, which seems extremely ambitions but not impossible.

I can't believe that calculation is correct. As a battery can be 620 Watt hours per litres, that is  0.62 Whrs per cubic centimetres, so a 2.17 cm^3 battery can supply around 1.35 Watt hours, and that has to last for the entire night - so the most the blowers could use is around 150mW.

That is only enough to run a small 35mm / 600mW fan that is on my desk for 2 hours.... and that fan only has enough pressure to just lift 10 post-it notes, Even if their fan is 100% efficient it must be feeble.

I know a bit about CPAP, as I put my son on it for a couple of years when he was younger...
just as interesting is the problem of humidification - it would be truly unpleasant to have dry air forced up your nose all night.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rs20 on July 07, 2015, 08:17:02 am
I can't believe that calculation is correct. As a battery can be 620 Watt hours per litres, that is  0.62 Whrs per cubic centimetres, so a 2.17 cm^3 battery can supply around 1.35 Watt hours, and that has to last for the entire night - so the most the blowers could use is around 150mW.

That is only enough to run a small 35mm / 600mW fan that is on my desk for 2 hours.... and that fan only has enough pressure to just lift 10 post-it notes, Even if their fan is 100% efficient it must be feeble.

I know a bit about CPAP, as I put my son on it for a couple of years when he was younger...
just as interesting is the problem of humidification - it would be truly unpleasant to have dry air forced up your nose all night.

7.5 litres per minute * 13.5 millibar = 0.16875 watts (https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=7.5+litres+per+minute+*+13.5+millibar) delivered pneumatic power.

As I called out in my original post, my calculation assumes 100% efficient fans/pumps and motors; the fan on your desk may be only 1% efficient (in terms of pressure drop sustained * flow rate) given that it's just wafting around this ethereal stuff we call air, and because the air can just flow back between the blades, preventing the fan from ever developing much pressure. Thing is, e.g., vane pumps might be more efficient because the air can't just leak back between the blades; which is why I'm basically asking for hard numbers of the inefficiencies of various fan/pump technologies. Obviously miniaturizing a fan probably makes it even less efficient, which is why this project is so very dubious, but I still think if we're so sure it's bogus, we should be able to back that up with hard numbers? (Even though the 2cc battery pretty much blows it out of the water by itself).
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 07, 2015, 12:11:21 pm
Just imagine a balloon and you have an air pump at the entrance of the balloon. Now you are trying to inflate the balloon so that the internal pressure of the balloon is 6-20mm Aq higher than the surrounding air. That could be determined either by the balloon stretching a bit in size, or you can put a weight on the balloon (assume the balloon is not stretchy) and just trying to inflate it so it overcomes the mass sitting on it and forms an inflated shape.

Let us assume an air-tight seal of the blower and mouth of the balloon. The leakages that would cause issues would be back flow through the blower itself. Remember we are just trying to overcome tissue at the back of the nasal passages and throat... so the main function and most demanding part of the cycle is just that portion which is needed to build a pressure in a closed nasopharynx and pressurize it, until the tissue flap opens and the pressure essentially drops again as air leaks back out the back of the throat.

The Airing needs to stay plugged in to the nose at the highest pressure, so can those ribbed rubbery things hold on to the inside of your nostril? Also how much work is required to inflate the nasopharynx (assuming closed mouth) to the point where it can overcome the tissue flap? The volume of nasopharynx is what we need to work with, not the entire lung. There also has to be enough air volume passable through the device since if it is your only pathway for air, you will suffocate if there is insufficient volume flow through its fans. Finally, what happens when the mouth opens? What effect does that have even on regular CPAP?

I think we can calculate work needed to move that volume of air (regardless of pressure) since that is a critical parameter. Then the actual pressure the blower can produce when it is obstructed is going to be based on the design of the blower construction, how "leaky" it is when faced with a blockage.... we will then have to show it can sustain 6-20mm Aq. But the first part is simply moving a volume of air assuming 100% perfect mechanical driving force to sustain breathing.

It is a bit more complicated even...

The volume that can pass through the Airing can be a combination of that pumped by the blowers and also any one-way release valves available. When you inhale air, you will expect a certain amount of air flow to go in. But if the blowers can't accommodate that, you would at least have a one-way valve letting you suck air in through the Airing and bypass the microblower. So together with the one-way air inlet and microblower, there should be enough openings to allow that rush of air in. The problem is when you breathe out you also need to accommodate for air escaping, especially if you are not going to be opening your mouth. That becomes an issue with a one-way valve designed to only allow air in.

If you have it designed for air going out, then you will have an issue getting air in through the microblower only, unless it can deliver the volume rate needed. Either way, for your microblower to be more efficient and develop a better pressure it will need to have tighter fit/valve design to make sure all the work of the motor is pushing against the pressure. Otherwise if you are just whiffing air around it will just leak out through openings around the blower and not overcome the pressure in the nasopharynx.

The reason CPAP as it now exists works and is unfortunately very clumsy to use, is because it does drive air in at a certain volume unimpeded by any valves or other obstructions. It overcomes the pressure of tissue at the back of the throat when you inhale air, due to shear brute force of air volume. There is leakage everywhere but that also allows for exhaled air to also exit along the same path without any need for valves. The pressure of you breathing out can easily overcome the CPAP blowing air into you... so it is not a problem. Remember, all you need is enough pressure in the nasopharynx to blow it open and lift that loose tissue long enough to let a gulp of air in.... And the continuous blowing of air keeps that flap open for a good amount of time.  It does no good to blow open the obstruction for a millisecond, then lose all the pressure you've built up in the nasopharynx and then have the tissue flap close up again. You will not have delivered enough of a gulp of air in that time. You need continuous sustained pressure for a certain length of time.

Now you could improve existing CPAP by having it monitor breathing and lung movement and actually have it cycle puffs of air blowing sinusoidally so it would "power assist" your breathing. It would have to monitor your breathing rate and automatically try to synchronize with it. Then provide sustained air pressure in waves and by monitoring the pressures and time, can estimate the volume delivered.

I still think Airing has no way to possibly function as it's intended goal, but then again, we have yet to be informed as to all the proprietary details behind the scenes. Maybe there is something but they are hiding it, for sure, because from everything I've seen it is vaporware.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 10, 2015, 03:49:37 pm
Once again, the media doesn't surprise me.... From a couple days ago Dailymail UK:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3151419/Could-nose-ring-help-beat-snoring-Matchbox-sized-device-pumps-air-nose-continuously-night.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3151419/Could-nose-ring-help-beat-snoring-Matchbox-sized-device-pumps-air-nose-continuously-night.html)


And I quote the article, which seems to state this as "fact" even though nothing has actually been developed yet and is all speculative:

Quote
The new device, called Airing, consists of a 2 in-long, chunky plastic nose ring that weighs less than an ounce. It has two protruding buds, made from a soft, pliable, silicon rubber material, which fit into the nostrils.

The buds contain hundreds of mini pumps, which take air from the atmosphere and deliver it into the nostrils under a slight pressure, which keeps the airways open.

It's powered by inbuilt batteries, which provide sufficient energy for the device to work for eight hours. Made from recyclable, cheap materials, it is designed for single use and costs around £2 (there are multiple sizes in order to accommodate different nostril shapes).

Research suggests that the device can produce the same air pressure as traditional CPAP machines.

Hello Dailymail? Where did it say anywhere on that KickStarter page that the device has had *any* research? The whole point of the KS campaign is to fund the research!
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: ElectroIrradiator on July 10, 2015, 04:50:46 pm
Didn't read the whole thread with a magnifying glass, but it seems some of the energy estimates mentioned are more than an order of magnitude off.

Standard CPAP mask machines start at 40 mm H2O, 4 cm, and go up to 25 cm, 250mm, at the normal limit. A pressure difference of 10 mm H2O, 1 cm, will do nothing.

Many CPAP users have sleep apnea problems due to being seriously obese, and they do need that much static pressure to open their airways.

Increase your energy estimates by a factor of 25, please.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 10, 2015, 05:57:54 pm
Didn't read the whole thread with a magnifying glass, but it seems some of the energy estimates mentioned are more than an order of magnitude off.

Standard CPAP mask machines start at 40 mm H2O, 4 cm, and go up to 25 cm, 250mm, at the normal limit. A pressure difference of 10 mm H2O, 1 cm, will do nothing.

Many CPAP users have sleep apnea problems due to being seriously obese, and they do need that much static pressure to open their airways.

Increase your energy estimates by a factor of 25, please.

Good observation. I think we've mixed up "mm" and "cm" a few times along the way. But it is "cm" of water, at least 10x factor difference from any previous calculation that may have assumed "mm". And if the equations had any squares involved it would be 100x off.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: ElectroIrradiator on July 10, 2015, 06:28:08 pm
Good observation. I think we've mixed up "mm" and "cm" a few times along the way. But it is "cm" of water, at least 10x factor difference from any previous calculation that may have assumed "mm". And if the equations had any squares involved it would be 100x off.

The factor of 25 I mentioned is due to a linear scaling of the power needed when going from 10 to 250 mm H2O. If the Airing widget is intended to be a complete replacement for the majority of existing CPAP machines, then it needs to be able to do at least 25 cm H2O. Even 10 cm (100 mm) will not do for a lot of users.

It seems the simplified inhale/exhale functionality they describe won't work either. The CPAP widget needs to maintain the rated CPAP pressure during exhalation as well, which is a lot more complicated than just maintaining it during inhalation. You need to be able to exhale out through it while it simultaneously keeps a steady and elevated airway pressure.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rs20 on July 10, 2015, 11:16:00 pm
Didn't read the whole thread with a magnifying glass, but it seems some of the energy estimates mentioned are more than an order of magnitude off.

Standard CPAP mask machines start at 40 mm H2O, 4 cm, and go up to 25 cm, 250mm, at the normal limit. A pressure difference of 10 mm H2O, 1 cm, will do nothing.

Many CPAP users have sleep apnea problems due to being seriously obese, and they do need that much static pressure to open their airways.

Increase your energy estimates by a factor of 25, please.

Thanks, well spotted. A factor of 10 increase (10cm H20) is sufficient to completely debunk this concept; while whether the typical user requires 25cm is maybe pushing things too far, so I'd be tempted to just x10 for the sake of compelling debunking.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 11, 2015, 06:25:13 pm
5 days to go, almost $800,000 and the "creators" may have just harpooned their own campaign with the latest update!  |O   :palm: 

The update is now gone.... They DELETED IT!  :-// Apparently it had something to do with them actually needing multiple $millions to get the production started. They back-tracked on it after a hoard of negativity from backers. Here's what Airing had to say:

Quote
4 hours ago:
Last night we posed an updated development plan for Airing.  It apparently created confusion on some key aspects of the plan.  Thank you to a few of you who noted the ambiguity.  We are revising the plan to make it clearer and will repost soon.  Please stay tuned.

Here are some comments which hint at the latest update which Airing has since deleted, posted here before they disappear too:

Quote
Jeffrey Torres (16 hours ago):
I’m quite excited about this but I am concerned of how you will get the rest of the funding needed to make this a reality. According to your plans, it will take $7,500,000 to make this into production. So far, the funding has only been $800,000 with only 5 days left. Where will the remaining $6,800,000 come from? If you don’t get this funding what happens to the perks? Thank you.


A user by the name of "fishandchimps" is lambasting them repeatedly:

Quote
fishandchimps (15 hours ago):
I’m also concerned and compelled to ask why your initial pitch was for $100,000 when you knew you’d need $7-8 million to have a chance of completion ?!
The way things work here at Indiegogo every single backer will be on the hook for their ‘contribution’ after the 5 days remaining with no recourse or assistance from IGG regardless of what you do from that point on.
Seems a bit duplicitous not to mention a FAR greater risk for us all given this new information ?
Please address ASAP.

The next comment from another concerned backer:

Quote
DreamSeeker (10 hours ago):
Your recent update was very concerning and puts your integrity in question.

Your update stated, “prove out our calculations that they can blow the right amount of air at the right pressures … $500K to $1M” with $7.5M to get to production.

All I’ve read so far implied the device was proven to work and you need “help to get it off the drawing board and into [our] hands” with $100K “enough money to make Airing happen”. I would not have contributed towards $500K – $1M to prove it works.

and then...

Quote
DreamSeeker (10 hours ago):
It seems additionally questionable that you removed the recent update with no comment about the plan:
1. Prototyping the micro-blowers: prove out our calculations that they can blow the right amount of air at the right pressures. Est. cost: $500K to $1M (6-9 months).
2. Testing the device: Cost: up to $500K (2-4 months).
3. Manufacturing testing: prove that the micro-blowers can be manufactured using the roll to roll process. Est. cost: $2M to $4M in equipment and $2M in labor (up to 12 months).

Then "fishandchimps" posts another 2 comments, even more inflamed... all because Airing posted some kind of Development Plan which showed everyone their true colors and that what is really needed to bring this device to market may be more than a miracle, not just oodles of money being thrown at the problem.

Quote
fishandchimps (7 hours ago):
I asked IGG support to re-evaluate the original “pitch” proposal vs. the now redacted Update #9 with its much more detailed disclosures to see if the apparent discrepancies with this campaign are still in keeping with their “Trust and Safety” guidelines ?
Rereading the original story with a now jaundiced eye seems to indicate the whole project is built upon some very spurious and misleading details given the revelations offered in that now missing “update”.
Caveat emptor.

Then again...

Quote
fishandchimps (3 hours ago):
Given that only 5 of your current 8128 backers expressed even marginal concerns over the hitherto unpublished details provided in that now redacted ‘update’, it appears you needn’t worry too much about offering us any strong due diligence !
I’m guessing the general lack of suspicion mostly reflects our overall desperation for an effective and comfortable CPAP substitute ?
Is there any supporting evidence whatsoever that this venture is more than just a pipe dream theory at this juncture ?

Another backer then chimes in with his thoughts on the campaign.....

Quote
Matthew Chan (2 hours ago):
Re-reading the campaign, they did say the crowdfunding was meant to raise funds for prototyping and the original timeline posted does seems to jive with a hyperoptimistic reading of now-redacted detailed timeline. With that said, it’s deceitful to withhold the information regarding the need for millions of dollars of additional funding to actually get the product manufactured. There is no way this product will get to production without venture capital, contrary to what the campaign text says.

Matthew Chan (2 hours ago):
I still would have contributed even if they had been honest about the cost. I.e. The message should have been something like “We need $10 million to take this from concept to reality, and we want to crowdfund $100k to help us obtain the resources to build some proof-of-concept prototypes which we will then use to seek venture capital or acquisition by big pharma.”

Back to the latest 2 comments as of the time of this posting... user "fishandchimps" is on a rampage and won't back down!  :box:

Quote
fishandchimps (1 hour ago):
I’d be interested in any sort of broad explanation of how you propose “Airing” would work to deliver even 1/2 liter of air at 20cm H2O in the 4-5 or so seconds every single breath takes ?
The housing looks to have a total volume of about 15 – 20cc.
Is it your position that you’ll be able to generate ~ 40 times that volume, at pressure, in those few seconds ?
Please educate us.

fishandchimps (1 hour ago):
I NEED this thing to work BUT rehashing well known details offered in your initial story regarding what conventional CPAP’s can actually do is in no way an indication of anything ‘Airing’ has been demonstrated to be capable of ?!
This entire venture sounded too good to be true…
Is there anything at all you can cite that we can look to for some sort of independent verification of your claims ?
R U aware that the Mass. AG’s office has been at the forefront of crowd sourcing investigations ?


Would be nice to see the original UPDATE that spawned this mess. But Airing LLC deserves it and finally some backers are starting to fight back for some real answers. Let's hope this entire thing crashes in the next 5 days. However, chances are IndieGoGo wants their cut of the $800,000 and will be given some lame excuse by Airing to let them ride on forward, and all these people will lose their money over the next few years as this entire thing blows up in smoke.

Since MOST backers don't seem to have any second thoughts of giving Airing LLC their money, I am sure they will still walk away with a nice chunk of cash. The only way to get this campaign deleted is for IndieGoGo to step in at this point and reverse all money from backers. Otherwise, the only recourse is for as many backers to be notified or follow-up and express some doubt to ask for a refund before the campaign closes in 5 days.... Highly unlikely.

Glad to see some critical thinking and questioning finally going public on this ludicrous campaign... with only 5 days to go! If they had only kept their mouth shut... :-DD
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: hamster_nz on July 11, 2015, 07:37:48 pm
Maybe it is a valid research project.

1. Find a valid 'need' for a medical product,

2. Propose an attractive but unworkable solution on a crowd-funding site.

3. Close it the funding down just before it is accepted

4. Write paper on "how crowdfunding sites encourage snake-oil products for desperate sufferers of medical issues".

5. Publish / profit?

Or maybe it is cheap market research?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 11, 2015, 10:38:50 pm
Maybe it is a valid research project.

1. Find a valid 'need' for a medical product,
2. Propose an attractive but unworkable solution on a crowd-funding site.
3. Close it the funding down just before it is accepted
4. Write paper on "how crowdfunding sites encourage snake-oil products for desperate sufferers of medical issues".
5. Publish / profit?

Or maybe it is cheap market research?

Another research I see here is how IndieGoGo can scam $800,000 from people and all the media seems to do is regurgitate the same press kit around the world without anyone actually making any comment about it. Sad state of affairs.



All I know is, the campaign comments page is finally getting exciting to watch!   :-+   

Whatever ends up happening, it will be very entertaining to read as things have really heated up. Where was everybody for the past month? Why did they finally come out of the woodworks with only 5 days to go? Only explanation was that UPDATE on funding that Airing put out where they put their foot in their mouth and pissed off a bunch of backers! Let's keep watching this one...

 :box:

Quote
Nick Martin
4 hours ago
$7.5Mil needed to complete the Project? Requesting $100k seems like a splash in a very deep pool! The new timeframe given means the estimated delivery date is way off what was initially promised. This seems like a ‘scam’ from the start. I use the term ‘scam’ with some trepidation as I think it’s more misleading than any thing else.

If it turns out that the new timing projections given & the new costing ($7.5MILLION!) predictions are true I think that Creators are ‘sick’ – it’s worrying that the Update has disappeared? – only time will tell…


Quote
fishandchimps
3 hours ago
Your video is duplicitous at best. You show nothing but an empty housing.
Admittedly I’m not the sharpest awl in the tool box. For all the world I was convinced you were demonstrating a working prototype not a vacant vessel with little but hope for functioning ‘innards’.
The patients depicted wearing the “device” as well as the narrative serve little but to add to the deception.
Kickstarter guidelines now forbid depictions of non working prototypes.
Indiegogo…not so much.
Shame on you both.


Quote
tpolasek
2 hours ago
I too thought that the micro blowers had been proven in cooling computer chips. They are the key to the product. I give the benefit of the doubt to the team that they are serious, capable and committed. These are just missteps in crowd funding.

Two questions for the Airing.
1. How confident are you that the blowers will work? What work has been done? CAD design? Computer simulation? Working prototype?
2. How confident are you that the needed additional funding can be raised?
Thank you!


You'd think Airing would be on top of this fast and issue a "clarified" update but nothing... Are they going to their lawyers to try and figure out how to best word things? I would assume they would just issue a statement already to tone these comments down before more people start catching on.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rs20 on July 11, 2015, 11:47:10 pm
Don't worry, Airing have cleared everything up:

Quote from: Airing
Answer regarding Airing device and treatment pressure: Can Airing produce as much air pressure as a typical CPAP machine?

The pressure generated by the typical CPAP machine ranges from 1 to 20 centimeters of water (cmH20), known as the treatment number. A doctor or sleep technician tests the patient to determine the appropriate treatment number. The Airing device has been designed to generate the full range of treatment pressures up to and in excess of a treatment number of 20.

Ironically, this just digs them into a deeper hole! Now they're effectively promising 20cm of H2O, which one can trivially prove is impossible for a whole night in such a small package!
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 12, 2015, 12:07:30 am
If IndieGogo doesn't stop this campaign, well they are no better than the scammers. People should sue IndieGogo for not abiding by their own rules. Wait. Do they have any rules? Do they ever enforce them? and did Airing violate them? That's what some backers are trying to prove.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rs20 on July 12, 2015, 12:59:56 am
Note that everything below is focussed on figuring out the energy budget, which doesn't look like such a compelling way of debunking this, although it might become one if we can nail down some efficiency figures. But edy's points about one way valves and so on (that are a bit beyond me tbh) and mikerj's point that the air will just escape through the mouth (unless the snoring happens north of the mouth?) still hold.

Increase your energy estimates by a factor of 25, please.

Thanks, well spotted. A factor of 10 increase (10cm H20) is sufficient to completely debunk this concept; while whether the typical user requires 25cm is maybe pushing things too far, so I'd be tempted to just x10 for the sake of compelling debunking.

Actually, not so fast. I just realised that mm H2O was just a mistype; 10cm H2O is 9.8 millibar, right? So my earlier calculation was actually liberal -- assuming 100% efficiencies everywhere gives a battery volume of 1.6cc (google calc link) (https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=7.5+litres+per+minute+*+9.8+millibar+*+8+hours+%2F+(620+watts+*+1+hour+%2F+1+litre)). 3.2cc for the promised 20cm H2O case. So it's not as if these blowers need to be an impossible 1000% efficient to work, 100% is enough. So debunking this purely on theoretical energy required is no good, you have to presuppose a certain degree of inefficiency in the blowers to debunk it. Now of course, microblowers are going to be horrendously inefficient; I don't think this project will work, but can we put a figure on those inefficiencies?

I think we can calculate work needed to move that volume of air (regardless of pressure) since that is a critical parameter. Then the actual pressure the blower can produce when it is obstructed is going to be based on the design of the blower construction, how "leaky" it is when faced with a blockage.... we will then have to show it can sustain 6-20mm Aq. But the first part is simply moving a volume of air assuming 100% perfect mechanical driving force to sustain breathing.

This isn't trivial; there's no simple lower bound on how much energy it takes to move a volume of air a certain distance (in the same way that a frictionless car will move forever with in a slight push, or the planets orbiting the sun endlessly*). However, getting that car (or volume of air) to move a certain distance, at a certain speed, while overcoming a certain amount of friction does give a certain amount of energy required, but that's much more involved to complicate with so many variables. But in an electronic analogy, these things correspond to inductance and resistance; and I think air is light enough that the simple pressure*flow calculation will dominate (or, put another way, the pressure term there will be dominated by the simple static pressure, not resistance in the airways or the inertia of the air).

* Disclaimer: there will be an end.

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 12, 2015, 01:55:40 am
I would like to see an energy estimate too. Let's assume a device (air pump) that is 100% efficient and no back-flow leakage. We are trying to push air at a certain rate (the amount needed by inhalation to fill a lung in a certain amount of time) while at the same time able to create enough pressure in a smaller volume (nasopharynx) during obstructive stage to lift up the tissue flap.

To simplify this, we can imagine a piston compressing a cylindrical volume of air. There is a "flap" about a fifth of the way in which requires that pressure in the first part of the cylinder (nasopharynx) be raised by 10-20 cm H2O before the flap opens and allows the air to blow into the second part of the chamber (lung).

So during the first part you are increasing pressure but no air is actually moving. Compression only. Then flap opens and pressure either remains the same or may drop a bit (assuming flap of tissue has some initial stickiness, takes more pressure to open it than to maintain it once open). I intuitively feel like some integration of the area under this pressure curve gives us something useful.

Anyways, all along the other condition of this chart graph of pressure is that through this cycle enough air has actually moved into the lung to be a normal sized breath. There has to be a way to calculate the amount of work required to pressurize the initial volume of air (nasopharynx part of cylinder) and then once flap opens, the work needed to keep pumping air at a sufficient rate to maintain the pressure in the first part of the cylinder while some leaks through the flap and fills the second part of the cylinder.

To complicate matters, the second part also can suck in air (so imagine a piston on the other side of the cylinder drawing air in or expanding the second part). Since the lung muscles pull open the rib cage and effectively increase the volume, like a syringe drawing up or sucking in air as well. Lungs do much of the work. The Airing is mostly an "assist" but it has to blow enough not to just pressure initially but sustain enough flow pressure to maintain patency of the tissue flap during the remainder of the inhalation. And the air pumps and nasal prongs have to be sufficiently sealed to allow pressurization with loss from leakage or pump/blower inefficiency to do it, and sustain it.

It is precisely because it may be a difficult system to calculate that it hasn't been debunked. But put a few HVAC and thermodynamics people on it and I'm sure we'll have answers quickly.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mtdoc on July 12, 2015, 02:05:02 am
If IndieGogo doesn't stop this campaign, well they are no better than the scammers. People should sue IndieGogo for not abiding by their own rules. Wait. Do they have any rules? Do they ever enforce them? and did Airing violate them? That's what some backers are trying to prove.

I'm afraid crowdfunding, and Indiegogo in particular has peaked.  If it was a stock, I would short it.  It's scams like these that I think are responsible.  I'll bet in a few more years crowdfunding will no longer exist - at least in its current form.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rs20 on July 12, 2015, 03:36:18 am
I'm afraid crowdfunding, and Indiegogo in particular has peaked.  If it was a stock, I would short it.  It's scams like these that I think are responsible.  I'll bet in a few more years crowdfunding will no longer exist - at least in its current form.

Does the same go for the mass media that so blindly advertised the scam? I wonder if the reporters involved are actually incentivized at all to fact-check. I mean, evidently they're not; but they're largely to blame if we assume that the general public is overly gullible.

You do raise a good point; I'm absolutely fascinated to see how crowdfunding's reputation develops over the next few years as Solar Roadways and Airing slowly fade from the scene. Will the general public form a healthy sense of caveat emptor and think about taking these claims with a grain of salt (hell, maybe even try googling for a bit), or will they just do a 180 and switch to completely distrusting all crowdfunding sites? Or maybe the average person won't even notice, and still be fresh for the great indiegogo scam of 2020? It's interesting to note that "only" 50,000 people funded Solar Roadways, "only" 8,000 people have funded Airing. That's a tiny fraction of even the US's population that's actually invested in the outcome; it's probably a tiny fraction of the people that saw the "isn't crowdfunding amazing" headlines. 

I'm not sure what my point is here, other than "there's lots more gullible fish in the sea"...
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 12, 2015, 04:08:39 am
I think crowd-funding will continue. Just not enough people affected to stop the influx of more players. Perhaps laws will be formed to at least increase accountability and reduce abuse of the system.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kean on July 13, 2015, 10:47:28 am
For the record, here is the full text from the deleted update

Quote
Expanded Airing Development Plan and Goals
Given your tremendous response and your wonderful, and often moving, notes of support, we thought you would appreciate more details about our development plan and how you can help.
Your participation at any level can benefit tens of millions of people affected by sleep apnea.
Plan overview:
The development program will require a range of expertise, including electrical, mechanical, software engineering and materials science. Necessary materials and services include 3D printing, CAD software, custom film, metallization and polymer processing.
Four stages of development:
1. Prototyping the micro-blowers: prove out our calculations that they can blow the right amount of air at the right pressures. Estimated cost: $500,000 to $1,000,000 (6-9 months).
2. Testing the device: requires integrating the micro-blowers into the Airing package for sleep tests and measurement of efficacy. Cost: up to $500,000 (2-4 months).
3. Manufacturing testing: prove that the micro-blowers can be manufactured using the roll to roll process. This will require the design of a complete manufacturing process flow. At this time we will also explore viable recycling options. This phase will require the purchase, assembly and testing of a bench scale prototype line to produce the micro-blower component of the Airing device. Estimated cost: $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 in equipment and $2,000,000 in labor (up to 12 months).
4. Scaling: mass manufacturing based on the results of the previous phases.
Some stages could proceed in parallel. Clinical trials and FDA clearance could occur while gearing up manufacturing. The greater the support, the faster and more effectively we can implement the development program.
Stretch goals and corresponding progress:
$1,000,000:  Substantially complete Stage 1 and begin parallel work on Stage 2.
$1,500,000:  Substantially complete Stages 1 and 2 and begin work on Stage 3.
$2,000,000: Extend work deeper into Stage 3.
These estimates of time and cost are based on input from experienced individuals and institutions from the relevant fields.
As is common in crowdfunding, we are trying to raise as much as we can towards our mission. Support from contributors like you also reinforces the viability of Airing to future large investors.
And that’s what this crowdfunding campaign is all about: to help make Airing happen.
Please help us by contributing what you can and by spreading the word to those you know who care about sleep apnea.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 13, 2015, 04:34:22 pm
@Kean: Thanks so much for posting that deleted update (how did you find it? was there a cache somewhere or did a backer copy it while it was still up?).


Now I understand why so many people are upset. They deleted the update 2 days ago, but have not posted their promised "clarification" and there are 63 hours to go. As well, money is still coming in as they are at around $807,095 now. Those funds appear to be the bare minimum to simply fund construction of a micro-blower prototype and see if it will actually blow enough air at the pressures they want. How did they come up with a $3/Airing figure? They do not even know if they can manufacture it.

They are WAY WAY WAY over-promising something that nobody seems to have any clue about actually working, and after $1,000,000 spent they will likely find it can't be done. Much like that young lady who did that Ultra-Sonic charging (uBeam: http://ubeam.com/ (http://ubeam.com/) ). Didn't they also get $750k in funding and have nothing? Wait, I think they took in $10 million in venture capitalist funding.

Conclusion: They have no idea what they are doing and if what they are proposing even works, but have no problem using a crowd-funding site (and poorly regulated one) like IndieGoGo to prey on desperation from medical patients who suffer from this horrible condition.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 13, 2015, 07:53:14 pm
Backer "fishandchimps" is continuing to post comments but he's the only one. Seems the rest don't check the campaign page once they contribute. New backers wouldn't necessarily know what transpired unless they dig deeper into the older comments:

Quote
fishandchimps
3 hours ago
Would I be correct in assuming that the promised “update” to your recently retracted ‘updated business plan’ won’t be forthcoming till AFTER this campaign closes and any chance for backers to amend their pledges or ask for refunds based on any new information you provide expires…in 63 hours ?

I hate to be ‘that guy’ but it appears I’m the only person concerned with doing even the bare minimal due diligence before abandoning the $800,000 + raised here, to blind faith.
Thanks

Somebody should email this user the deleted campaign update so it can be posted in the comment area, where it may not be as easy to remove.

ADDED:

Quote
As is common in crowdfunding, we are trying to raise as much as we can towards our mission. Support from contributors like you also reinforces the viability of Airing to future large investors.

So the idea is to prove that there is a demand for this product. Stephen Marsh then goes to "Large Venture Capitalist Investor X" and shows them how many people are looking to buy this thing, helping to prove a demand and so he can raise another few million from the corporate investors. This is sounding so much like uBeam, it's like they took a page out of that book to create Airing. Except uBeam, as far as I know, did not crowd-fund anything. They just went straight to investors and raised over $10 million.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 14, 2015, 12:57:02 pm
User "fishandchimps" continues his rampage and will likely do so until the end of the campaign in about 43 hours. Meanwhile, Airing is silent and despite the rampage have increased to $812,148:

Quote
fishandchimps
11 minutes ago
I sent an email to GE Global Reseach’s legal dept. asking them to at least have a look see here ?
Ideally before your campaign ends.
No response from IGG. Again not a big surprise, they get their cut even before you get yours. It’s a lot of money.
I hope my healthy skepticism is misplaced but…..?
A few simple answers would send me packing.

fishandchimps
1 hour ago
It also appears the patented GE technology involved is dependent on AC current so some sort of power converter is required to run it from a DC source ?
This may have some bearing on why repeated questions and requests about rechargeable units instead of disposable “Airings” seemingly won’t be addressed here ?
It’s kinda moot though since it appears even GE hasn’t gotten to the nano levels of the proposed mechanisms assigned to these 2017 “Airing” units ?
Any comments for clarity ?
I’ll wait.

fishandchimps
3 hours ago
No answers – No surprise. Other than when you’re up-selling or holding contests to increase your sales your communication skills are sorely wanting.
Very typical of scam campaigns though usually not before final closing.
If I Google “dual jet piezo cooling fans” I find it is a recently developed GE proprietary product only available thru licensing from them ?
This brings about many other questions relative to this project.
I’m interested if anyone else is at all curious about any of this ?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 14, 2015, 04:35:12 pm
Very Odd....  ???  Here's Airing's 10th Update (after promising to clarify their screwed up 9th update that upset many people):

Quote
A Strong Finish
With the encouragement and support of the people like you who so personally want to see the Airing device succeed, we are achieving the funding necessary for the development of the micro-blower prototype.  If we can stretch to reach the $1 to $1.5 million level, we could really accelerate the development of the Airing.  Help us, and yourselves, by creating a strong finish to the campaign.


Ok.... So by some miracle, in the last few hours they managed to jump from $812,148 to $830,335! There is a mad rush near the end of this campaign. 38 hours left and Airing is trying to suck up as much money as possible, and they are succeeding, despite constant posts by "fishandchimps" and others who are trying to warn people.   :box:

All I can say is....  :wtf:


Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kean on July 14, 2015, 04:50:47 pm
@Kean: Thanks so much for posting that deleted update (how did you find it? was there a cache somewhere or did a backer copy it while it was still up?).
I got it from a (deleted) email from IGG.
If you're logged in to IGG, you can "follow" any project and you'll receive announcements via email, even if you don't back the project, and even after the funding finishes.
Somewhat easier (& cheaper) than the KS $1 backer trick.  But you still cant post comments (they'd probably get deleted anyway...)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 14, 2015, 05:38:07 pm
@Kean: Thanks so much for posting that deleted update (how did you find it? was there a cache somewhere or did a backer copy it while it was still up?).
I got it from a (deleted) email from IGG.
If you're logged in to IGG, you can "follow" any project and you'll receive announcements via email, even if you don't back the project, and even after the funding finishes.
Somewhat easier (& cheaper) than the KS $1 backer trick.  But you still cant post comments (they'd probably get deleted anyway...)


Thanks. I logged in to Indiegogo and looking for a "favorites" button or "follow" but can't seem to figure out how to follow a campaign.  |O  Must be something obvious I'm overlooking. Any help would be appeciated! Thanks!
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 14, 2015, 08:58:15 pm
Now at $843,171.... 34 hours left to go. Who in their right mind is still backing this campaign?  :palm: Will they beat $860k? $880k? At this rate they may even hit the $900k mark. Meanwhile, backers are starting to post their anger with no word from Airing.... Like you couldn't see this coming a mile away.

Imagine they DIDN'T post their 9th update (which was deleted)? Would anyone have bothered to comment? Airing nearing the finish line... But stumbled on a stupid update they should't have posted, finally getting some well-deserved heat from backers, but it's too late. They coast through winning the vast majority of money.

Celia has this to say:

Quote
Celia
9 minutes ago
each and every update pushes me to a higher level of disgust and disbelief.

how can a campaign over 800 percent “over” funded be asking for a strong finish?

This is just not right.

No answers to legitimate questions from people who REALLY need this, just more funding “options” and request for funds.

i personally just put in enough to be a supporter for future options. I feel quite badly for anyone who really truly would need this seemingly vaporware object.

And then another by this user (he probably meant "You Are not Alone..."):

Quote
ihope4
1 hour ago
You are not along “fish and chimps”. I am not happy with the last retracted proposal and today they are upping the anti. Looks like we’re out in the cold with cumbersome masks until GE or someone else makes a new product.


According to the IndieGogo fee page, they charge 4% for campaigns that reach their goal and another 3-5% for credit card processing. So IndieGogo could stand to make $32,000 on this, and the credit card companies another $24,000 - $40,000.

Watching the past 24 hours of this campaign is hilarious....  :-DD

User "fishandchimps" is back at it, after having been possible "BLOCKED" he is now under a new account:

Quote
foamarium
17 minutes ago
Here’s a very telling tidbit of interest for all.
I had to “donate” another $1 with a friend’s account because my Fish and Chimps comments have been completely blocked from posting further on this !!!!!
Big red letters “An unknown error has occurred”
Never happened before.
What a hoot ! I must be hitting some nerves ?
Please people….at least look a bit deeper here yourselves.
The more I look this the less convinced I am and the “creator’s” mounting abuses don’t bode well for the future.


foamarium
41 minutes ago
I need something like this to be true but the more I look into things the more it’s shaping up to be a pie in the sky !
I’m astounded people can be so casual about handing over close to $1M based on a few paragraphs, a video and a few pics of an empty shell attached to someone’s nose ?!
Reread this pitch and at least do a minimum due diligence. It’s nuts !
I reduced my “pledge” to the $1 it merits and can wait the extra few months if things turn out to be true.
Ask questions !
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kean on July 15, 2015, 01:49:13 am
Thanks. I logged in to Indiegogo and looking for a "favorites" button or "follow" but can't seem to figure out how to follow a campaign.  |O  Must be something obvious I'm overlooking. Any help would be appeciated! Thanks!
In the web page, look for the heart shaped icon on the left of the title video (sometimes I've seen it below the video).  The icon hould say Follow under it.  Similarly on mobile apps there is a heart shaped button on each campaign page (verified in iPhone app).
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 15, 2015, 02:34:09 am
Thanks. I logged in to Indiegogo and looking for a "favorites" button or "follow" but can't seem to figure out how to follow a campaign.  |O  Must be something obvious I'm overlooking. Any help would be appeciated! Thanks!
In the web page, look for the heart shaped icon on the left of the title video (sometimes I've seen it below the video).  The icon hould say Follow under it.  Similarly on mobile apps there is a heart shaped button on each campaign page (verified in iPhone app).

Thanks. I've looked and looked but can't find a Heart. See attached screenshot. That's on my phone browser, and also in Google Chrome. Maybe I need to download the actual app? And I'm logged in on the website and still no heart icon. I'll check out the app.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 15, 2015, 02:46:16 am
That's funny, on my iPhone it shows the heart in the Safari browser! I wonder if it has to do with mobile browser mode (mobile or desktop) or the actual phone brand.

Yup its browser... I set my phone back to mobile mode and shows heart now. Go figure! What an oddity... Guess they don't want desktop users to heart things.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 15, 2015, 12:40:49 pm
No surprise, a few of the posts from "fishandchimps" and "foamarium" have been deleted from the campaign page. I wish I had copied all of them here before they were removed, like I did the other ones above!

Apparently, they said they received a message from Indiegogo that that the comments were abusive in nature and therefore was not allowed to post from the "fishandchimps" account. So they used "foamarium" to post and explain what happened, and that was deleted as well.

So I tried to send the following message to user "foamarium" through Indiegogo:

Quote
I have been following your posts and completely agree with you. Now I noticed many of your comments have been removed. I've been logging this campaign and the deletion of comments and wanted to hear more of your story to post in a blog/forum. If you can share what happened, I'd like to know. Thanks!

And Indiegogo returned an error message as follows:

Quote
You can only send messages to people that you're connected to through a campaign.

So there is really no way to contact other backers if you are not "in" on the same campaign.

This has all been very enlightening. Being new to crowd-funding I have now learned many valuable lessons. Unless you are constantly viewing comments and logging them, you cannot trust any interaction on that site. It rates at -1 out of 10 in my books.

If Airing had addressed the comments (many of which were tame initially) from their backers with the same diligence and promptness as asking for additional money, none of this would happen. The questions were valid and quite polite initially. What happens when you have over $800,000 in backing, post a shockingly different timeline for an update and retract it, and then ignore your backers asking you legitimate questions is you get people angry. Deleting them all and ignoring things in the last few days of the campaign while Indiegogo and Airing censor things is not a good model for a community-built system and they will pay for it one way or another. Karma is a bitch!

Indiegogo's "Trust & Safety" position is a complete JOKE.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kean on July 15, 2015, 02:11:03 pm
I tried to send fishandchimps a message via IGG because we both backed another failed IGG campaign (BE Maker), but I couldn't do it either and got the same error.  I'm guessing only backers and campaign creators can contact each other - yet another way to keep the masses in-line!
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kalidor on July 15, 2015, 03:30:47 pm
I tried to send fishandchimps a message via IGG because we both backed another failed IGG campaign (BE Maker), but I couldn't do it either and got the same error.  I'm guessing only backers and campaign creators can contact each other - yet another way to keep the masses in-line!

You are right, to PM a IGG user both have to back the same campaign. And I found a big campaign with only one comment from the creator, maybe he can block the comments section or he has a script that deletes new comments. See https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/skully-ar-1-the-world-s-smartest-motorcycle-helmet/x/10280792#/comments (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/skully-ar-1-the-world-s-smartest-motorcycle-helmet/x/10280792#/comments)
The hole IGG platform is designed to maximize the income, after a campaign is funded it switches to "ever funding" now called "InDemand". The page looks like a web shop and I found many shitty news sites reporting about the newest invention and how cool it is ending the story with you can buy it on IGG. Yes BUY. Looking on the usernames and profiles on some scampaigns that are InDemand and you see 90-95% of the late (InDemand) backers are Asians. If it goes wrong and the comments rage start you see how poor the English of these backers is. They read the news in Chinese or Korean and go to IGG understand no word nor try to translate the comments and click on the big pink button.
And you can even boost your scam, just back yourself at the beginning with 20k and you will get the attention of the news writer, they PM you and asking for money (some $100) to write a cool story. Ah and I forgot, as a creator on IGG you can use whatsoever identity and location, nobody will ask you for a passport, Ritot and others did it.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 15, 2015, 11:07:44 pm
There are 8 hours to go.... $883,000 funded.

Interestingly, all comments of any questionable nature have disappeared... either deleted or pushed down into being hidden. The top comments are all much more tame and mostly positive or simple questions. I wonder if both Airing and Indiegogo are monitoring the campaign comments now very closely to quickly eliminate anything that casts any doubt.

I predict they will reach $900,000 based on the rate they are going. Wouldn't be surprised.

Still no mention by Airing of the promised clarified "update" on the timing and funding that confused people. I predict that we will have NO update at all until after the campaign has finished. Airing doesn't want to post anything that will screw up their "strong finish".

Some people seemed to suggest based on his deleted "update" that they were going to raise the other $7 million from venture capitalists, showing them that he has already close to $1 million from an eager backer base...

As far as believing Stephen Marsh will use this money (which is a commitment and validation of the need for such a product by users) to leverage any investment capitalist funding... One only has to look at his failed previous business venture with  "Encite LLC" and the dubious premise of this product to actually work. I believe his days raising venture capitalist funding are over. No venture capitalist who does any due diligence will give this man any money. Hence his reason for turning to crowd-funding. I think it was because there was no other means to secure funds.

That only means this project is even more doomed than everyone believes. Even if he needed another $7 million, who in their right mind would give it to him? At least the lady who started uBeam had no history of bankrupting a company, nor did she have a court case involving venture capitalist shenanigans. The Solar Roadways people also didn't have any history of this kind of stuff. Won't any venture capitalist investor with any brains dig up the history, or are they incompetent and irresponsible at playing with other people's money?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mikerj on July 16, 2015, 12:17:17 pm
No venture capitalist who does any due diligence will give this man any money. Hence his reason for turning to crowd-funding.

It doesn't seem to make any difference, VC's appear to want to throw money at even the most obviously ridiculous and impractical schemes going.  You only need to look at the uBeam funding for proof of this.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 16, 2015, 12:51:01 pm
So the campaign ended hours ago yet the funding keeps on increasing?   :wtf:

Look at these screen shots I took over the past hour showing the roll-over to over $900,000...How is this possible?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rs20 on July 16, 2015, 12:56:11 pm
edy: Google "Indiegogo InDemand". Essentially, the campaign never ends.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: tom66 on July 16, 2015, 01:00:09 pm
Campaign scam never ends!

It really is only a matter of time until IGG get their arses sued off for not performing due diligence on those allowed to fundraise on this platform.

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mikerj on July 16, 2015, 01:50:25 pm
Campaign scam never ends!

It really is only a matter of time until IGG get their arses sued off for not performing due diligence on those allowed to fundraise on this platform.

I probably need a tin foil hat, but has anyone checked whether IGG and the people that run these scampaigns have any connection?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Richard Crowley on July 16, 2015, 03:38:09 pm
I probably need a tin foil hat, but has anyone checked whether IGG and the people that run these scampaigns have any connection?
IGG doesn't need to create or even encourage scammers like this. I'm quite confident that they will show up on IGG's doorstep completely of their own initiative.

I thought you had coined a great word there with "scampaign", but searching Google for it revealed this interesting website:

http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/ (http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 16, 2015, 05:09:56 pm
I'm all for free economy but as far as crowd-funding goes, to preserve the health of the system and make sure criminal elements don't run wild (which can be used as a slippery-slope to other illegal activities) I believe some sort of REGULATION will be needed.

Perhaps it will mirror some of the same regulations as with securities and investment. Some kind of risk assessment, or the need for explicit disclosure. Maybe INSURANCE to be purchased (good luck with that one... we will have insurance fraud) or a shared liability with the common carrier "crowd-funding site", or a combination of all of these.

Unfortunately, without some regulatory involvement, there will be more and more victims for years to come. It will ruin trust of this funding mechanism and spread doubt to other sites (Kickstarter and so on).

All you need to do is LEAK A STORY to CNN or some other news outlet that ISIS Terrorists are using IndieGogo to crowd-fund scams to fund terrorist activities and you will see them getting so much heat from the government in 5 seconds that it will turn the entire industry on it's head. Watch that one unravel!
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kalidor on July 17, 2015, 11:01:42 am
@edy, you should give a look on this https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nanoplug-the-world-s-first-invisible-hearing-aid/x/10280792 (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/nanoplug-the-world-s-first-invisible-hearing-aid/x/10280792)
It's one of the fastest IGG scamms I ever seen, after 2 1/2 months they wrote in the update: "As we said, everything will be solved at the mid March. New and required design from CE is here."
After that they started shipping a useless $20 device, the perk for a Nanoplug was around $400.

Or this one https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/neo-neural-efficiency-optimizer-neurophone/x/10280792#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/neo-neural-efficiency-optimizer-neurophone/x/10280792#/story)
Collected $1.2M, for a device that makes what? "Neurophone is famed inventor Dr. Patrick Flanagan's profound time-tested techno-meditation device that uses blissful ultrasonic waves to soothe and center your mind and allow the possibility to make you smarter."

Medical and health care devices, great for scamming the crowd!
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 17, 2015, 12:34:42 pm
Wow! My 3-year old son has hearing aids and I have done a lot of research to know what goes into one. That NanoPlug is so obviously impossible and impractical yet with such a deviously designed sales pitch and renderings that you know from the start it is a scam. Since when is it ok to have something lodged so far into the middle ear and user-inserted? And a nano-battery? Once again Star Trek fantasy. But a lot of people would honestly believe it.

As far as NEO neurophone goes, I am not so much bothered by it because it isn't really treating a medical condition and is more like those gem-stone crystal copper bracelet magnet pressure point "power of suggestion" devices. As long as he delivered the product to his backers, no matter how useless it may be, he has fulfilled his obligation. Any effect claimed would be placebo effect. To buy those "enhancement" devices you already have to believe in that type of stuff, so it will tend to work on you.

This also undermines the health professional community. Patients have to be able to trust their doctors and scientific research. When these scams start targeting medical issues and prey on a vulnerable group of people, it is a whole other level. That is another reason for some regulation.

By the way, Airing is up to $924,000... They raised another $25,000 in 1 day? After the campaign "closed" due to InDemand... or " InDeScam" more like it.

We need to start a CHANGE.ORG campaign.... I'm surprised there is no public rally against Indiegogo to change their policies regarding MEDICAL-CLAIM crowd-funding campaigns. It should be in their policies, that would at least stop the most despicable of scams. If they are not to completely remove it, there should at least be more rigorous proof before one gets approved to be crowd-funded.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on August 04, 2015, 01:18:35 am
On the verge of surpassing... (in Dr. Evil voice)...1 mmmmillllionnn dollars! Muhahahahaha!  :-DD

A little bit of more news:

http://burlington.wickedlocal.com/article/20150724/NEWS/150727677 (http://burlington.wickedlocal.com/article/20150724/NEWS/150727677)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: will9twl on August 04, 2015, 06:14:35 am
i'm eager to see their quarterly report out in oct.
let's see if there's a functional prototype for demo then~ :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on August 09, 2015, 11:46:26 am
The only update they posted is that they reached a million and that they are printing paper vouchers. What about the product research and development?

Here is their time line:

(http://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1434053277/wvalzlevwndqlrcuxvco.png)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Richard Crowley on August 09, 2015, 03:33:35 pm
Well, they now have 2 years to spend the money before they report failure. FDA approval makes a nice cover for the scam. They estimate 9 months, but that seems wildly optimistic.  I predict many reports of delays in "testing" and "approval" before they break the bad news.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on September 08, 2015, 04:07:46 pm
I have added http://www.fundairing.com/ (http://www.fundairing.com/)  to the website page-change tracking site known as https://www.changedetection.com/ (https://www.changedetection.com/). Here is the change log which will be updated weekly:

https://www.changedetection.com/log/fundairing/index_log.html (https://www.changedetection.com/log/fundairing/index_log.html)

If anything happens on the main page, I should receive an email. I didn't want to track IndieGogo because it is always changing with comments and such.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on September 23, 2015, 08:31:22 pm
Got an update today :

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2015/9/21/airing-update-92115 (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2015/9/21/airing-update-92115)

They printed up vouchers to buy their products at discounted prices... if and when they will ever exist.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on September 29, 2015, 02:15:22 pm
Hi,

The interesting thing about these vouchers is that is ALL they are committed to deliver to deliver as a perk in the IGG campaign.

The vouchers are only usable if all these other conditions are met:

1) They have to become available

2) They have FDA approval

3) You have a prescription for the device from a doctor.

4) The device meets any local regulations.


They have so many outs, but they have delivered on their promise, of giving you a worthless voucher.

Their projected retail price of $3.00 is totally unrealistic for a medical device.

Jay_Diddy_B




Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on September 29, 2015, 05:10:41 pm
The interesting thing about these vouchers is that is ALL they are committed to deliver to deliver as a perk in the IGG campaign.

Exactly! They promised vouchers to provide Airings... with the assumption made by backers that one day Airings will be available so that the vouchers are good for something. Either way, from a legal perspective I don't think it even makes a difference. This "loophole" is not needed, due to the unfortunate fact that *even* campaigns that PROMISE YOU A PRODUCT don't have any issues skirting the law and running off with all the money. The voucher thing may have been a calculated "legal" move, or maybe just a way to appease backers with something to keep them happy that they have something in their hand while this entire sham continues to unfold.

There is at least a backer or two posting in the COMMENTS section which I will post here in case it gets deleted:

Quote
david.kovanen 16 days ago
Does anybody think it’s odd that we’ve heard nothing from Airring in more than eight weeks? I mean, ever since the money was released to Airing we have heard nothing at all. That strikes me is a bit odd in a few ways. Sometimes when we so much want something to be true we ignore the little red warning flags…

Quote
david.kovanen 16 days ago
Stephen A. Marsh founded a Company to develop micro fuel cell technology that, if perfected, would have replaced batteries in cell phones and laptops. The Company failed to develop the technology or generate a consistent stream of revenue. It subsequently decided to terminate all employees…and cease operations.

Marsh appears to have an established record of being a good promoter and has some legacy of failed start-ups. Google Stephen A. Marsh for interesting/worrisome reading. I’m worried.

Quote
david.kovanen 10 days ago
They don’t seem to be working on certification or anything else for that matter, as far as I can determine. FDA certification for this type of device typically is just a very few months. there is a fast track that CPAP manufacturers consistently get approval for.

My concern is that this project may just be a big scam. There seems to be very little happening…apparently no business licenses or full time staff or any prototypes of the micro blowers. The founder’s track record is not encouraging.

Quote
david.kovanen 10 days ago
Indegogo claims they have not done any vetting or due diligence, and they now refuse to provide a phone number or even a mailing address for Airing. A million dollars seems to have just gone into thin air with little accounting.

Nobody—not even me—can say with certainty that there is a problem here. But there is a lot that just doesn’t add up. My opinion is that we should be somewhat worried.

Should a company that took $1-Million fro. 10,000 people remain anonymous?

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on September 29, 2015, 05:18:03 pm
If you look at their recent update, it looks to me like they are trying to position themselves perhaps to look good to V.C. funding and gather up the other $7-8 million of support needed to start up the R&D labs for this thing:

Quote
That visible enthusiasm has generated calls from several potential partners (many of which sought us out) that could accelerate our development timeline.

It's looking a lot like Batteriser but only in reverse.... whereas Batteriser gets V.C. funding and then uses IGG for promotion, Airing LLC starts with IGG with a prototype rendering and over-promising a "Star Trek" device with absolutely no working prototype, gains a lot of support from desperate people looking for a solution to their awful CPAP devices... and now looking for V.C. support for the 3-5 years worth of R&D which will keep Marsh and his team of executive busy.

More corporate-speak that really tells us nothing:

Quote
We have been actively screening a wide range of manufacturing and services suppliers that can provide equipment and expertise to complement our in-house resources. Finding the right blend of outside expertise with our own expanding staff will be a critical element in our development program and remains a dynamic process.

And some more garbage:

Quote
We have formed a Technical Advisory Board to give us access to select experts in the field who can share their expertise and contacts to further complement our efforts. We plan to formally announce our first board member in the very near future and are thrilled that he has agreed to join our team. We think you’ll be as impressed as we are.


What ever happened to that "micro-blower" patent Marsh was all excited about that was shown in the computer renders? When are they going to make a single protoype? No doubt the board member they announce will be somebody from a V.C. firm that is going to pitch in another few million... Otherwise, why would they bring anyone to the board unless they are investors?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on October 01, 2015, 11:22:20 pm
Update: Audio-only interview with Stephen Marsh:

http://www.massdevice.com/airing-the-story-behind-one-of-medtechs-most-successful-crowdfunding-campaignsdevicetalks-podcast/ (http://www.massdevice.com/airing-the-story-behind-one-of-medtechs-most-successful-crowdfunding-campaignsdevicetalks-podcast/)

And the short link:

http://bit.ly/1LN3v66  (http://bit.ly/1LN3v66)

I heard snippets only, seems like only talking about how he got the idea, how successful the campaign and funding was... Nothing about any of the actual engineering or "hard questions". But if somebody has the time to listen and wants to summarize it (or knows how to feed it through a speech-to-text translator), please post a summary.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on October 02, 2015, 01:37:31 am
Hi group,

Listen to the recording from 28.00 onwards. He talks about the IGG money being a donation at 28.30.

Jay_Diddy_B
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on October 02, 2015, 04:21:57 am
From his audio interview, near the beginning he says he developed the Airing as a consequence of trying to come up with better airflow for his Fuel Cell Power Chip....which was being developed when he was under the V.C. funding umbrella of now-defunct technology startup Integrated Fuel Cell Technologies, Inc. and Encite LLC. He also says he has a non-compliant brother (doesn't wear CPAP machine although he has Sleep Apnea).

So what happened with the Power Chip? I see his patents, just Google "Stephen Marsh Power Chip or Fuel Cell" and you'll notice a bunch of patents.... But are they good for anything? Is this like the Roohparvar Brothers patents which are just paperwork and really don't amount to much except lawsuit armament for future patent trolling? Any practical application? If anything actually came to fruition from his Fuel Cell company, wouldn't the company still exist and not have gone bankrupt and ended up in court (http://www.potteranderson.com/delawarecase-185.html (http://www.potteranderson.com/delawarecase-185.html))?

He talks a bunch about how he is an inventor and putting together "disparate" technologies. You have to wonder, how do "inventors" and "engineers" differ? One has to obey the laws of physics?  :-DD  The other just has to come up with something and then hire the engineers to somehow make it work?

His "Aha!" moment may have been the answer to the question "How Do I Keep Sucking In Money Now That My Fuel Cell Company is Bankrupt". He invented a microblower system that has no working prototype at all, is just a concept with no characterization on the power utilization, efficiency or actual performance.... and as far as I can see there is no patent either (http://patents.justia.com/inventor/stephen-a-marsh (http://patents.justia.com/inventor/stephen-a-marsh)). It is pure vapour at this point, yet he made A HUGE LEAP FORWARD and already created an APPLICATION for this non-existent micropump that it may not even be good for at all.

So the process he seems to be conveying in the interview is that...  he "got good feedback, was encouraged by all the people showed this" (who have no friggin' clue as to what is going on)... So he "decided to march ahead and launch the Airing" on IndieGogo. He was happy to accept this "donation" from users who would have the most stake in this thing working and also the most disadvantaged by current solutions. Hmm... did the backers really understand the "risk" and did they treat it as a "donation" or were they thinking they are actually buying Airings?

In the interview he is talking about how he came up with the design, and answering questions about how it is working (air flow, battery supply, pressures) like he somehow knows it with absolute certainty. That's complete B.S. because there is no actual prototype of the working hardware yet. He only created the rubber outside moulding design that fits on the nose, but with empty internals. He mentions the micropumps are electrostatic types. I am glad that he has such a clear concept of how it is supposed to be performing without having any idea how much power is required, and whether a tiny battery can do this work, and many other features.

By the way, the best way to listen to the speech is to throw something like this in the background:

http://tunein.com/radio/Limbik-Frequencies-s2225/ (http://tunein.com/radio/Limbik-Frequencies-s2225/)

... While listening to the interview on Sound-cloud. It makes a good mix and keeps the 45 minute interview from boring you to death. At least the background instrumental ambient psychadelic goa trance music matches the state of delusion surrounding the entire campaign's promises.

He also talks about the funding... somewhere from 28 minutes onwards. Traditional funding (i.e. from major companies) comes with a lot of "baggage" or "Strings attached".  :wtf:  Yeah, it's called accountability Mr. Stephen Marsh..... He said he'd rather get the money from crowd-funding because it is directly from the people who are going to use it. He wanted people to support him on a "proof of concept" level and that there is "a lot more risk".

At around 35 minutes he talks more about "proof of concept" and being "half way through the market" and "FDA" and "pilot studies". Marsh says definitively NO, they are not there yet. He says he still needs to build an example or prototype, to characterize it and understand how much air is blowing and what pressure and determine that it actually works with airflow and pressure. He then says at that point the prototype can be put into the "appearance model" which is the rendered images you see on the website, that you stick in your nose, to see if it works. He says they have built the physical prototypes (the rubber things you stick in your nose) to show that it is comfortable to stick in your nose and wear at night are done. However, he says the micropumps have not been made and that he has to make sure it can actually fit in to the physical rubber model and does what it is supposed to.

I can guarantee you that most backers of the campaign probably thought they were way further along and that it was pretty much proven and just needed more engineering refinement and core manufacturing capital to set up production. I highly doubt they would have obtained over $1,000,000+ of "donations" if people knew it was all based on fluff of an idea that has not been proven at all and which is relying on pie-in-the-sky risks.

At about 40 minutes the interviewer asks about the ADDITIONAL monies that needed to be raised over and above the IndieGogo funds, since Marsh even admitted to needing close to $8,000,000 to build it. So Marsh reminds people about InDemand on IGG and to encourage more funding. He denies having raised other private money, except from friends and family. I guess he doesn't want to deal with the nuisance of accountability from a V.C. firm with all their lawyers and stuff.

I give him credit in the last 5 minutes for at least addressing the seriousness of Sleep Apnea. He says that until he makes this Airing product that people use whatever existing CPAP solutions exist, however uncomfortable they are. He says bringing the device to market from concept is a "Difficult, long and expensive process". He says Resmed (makers of CPAP machines) complain that awareness of Sleep Apnea is one of their biggest problems, and many people don't get diagnosed who have it. The Airing does raise awareness, that may be the only benefit of this entire campaign.

I hate being a pessimist here. It would be great if it worked. My beef with this campaign on IGG is that there was a deception from the inception of the campaign to give the appearance that it was a done deal EDIT:  it was more certain to be realized. Perhaps I didn't read between the lines well enough, but it sure sounded like the tech behind Airing was well ahead in development. If they had emphasized how rudimentary their work was, and how much more money they would need to actually meet their "perks" (which are just pieces of paper actually... nice loophole by the way), and really people understood how much of a leap they will need to take... I really don't think it would have received anywhere close to $1,000,000.

Let's keep Stephen A. Marsh accountable and continue to follow this very long journey and where things take us.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: helius on October 02, 2015, 04:35:18 am
Quote
If anything actually came to fruition from his Fuel Cell company, wouldn't the company still exist and not have gone bankrupt and ended up in court?
Not necessarily. Sometimes innovative companies have bad management, sometimes they are killed by shareholder disputes, and sometimes they are simply too early for the market to be ready. Entrepreneurship is hard.

Your point about accountability is a good one. When you seek V.C. funding, you immediately start to dilute the ownership of the company. And most funding arrangements have stoploss provisions that make the penalties for screwing up very severe. With "crowd-funding", you can approach a vastly larger pool of suckerssupporters, who don't need any qualifications as competent investors. They get no equity, and no say whatsoever in how the company is run or how the money is spent. What are the penalties for screwing up? Dunno, LOL. Start another campaign!
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on October 09, 2015, 09:07:56 pm
Latest update!

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2015/10/9/airing-progress-update-10915 (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2015/10/9/airing-progress-update-10915)

Here is my analysis (text in red bold is my commentary):

Quote
Hi Airing Supporters,

As a company born of the crowd (you), we place enormous value in communicating our progress to everyone who has contributed to the development of the Airing prototype. (we want to make sure you don't start a mob attack on us so we are stringing you along for as long as we can).  Airing is a lean and mean team (there is really nobody working for us, we just wanted to steal your money) and we are determined to keep you updated on our progress while we execute our primary mission of meeting or exceeding our timeline to get this device into your hands.

We are delving into uncharted territory here and couldn’t be more excited. As far as we know, we are the first to develop a breakthrough technology from such an early stage with this large of a supportive community behind it. (we are the biggest ever scam of this type in IndieGogo history)     As you know, the technology in Airing has never been assembled in this way before. (because it is impossible)  The form factor of Airing–from the nosebuds to the micro-blowers–has never existed before. (because they are  not possible to do with today's technology and your relatively small $1 million in funding)    The price-point we’re targeting would have been laughable even a few months ago. (and it is still laughable)    Therefore, the ultimate existence of Airing may very well be seismically disruptive to the sleep apnea treatment industry. (it will be, because nobody believes it is possible and if you actually manage to pull it off it will truly be a miracle of biblical seismic proportions)

Given this anticipated disruption, it will not always be in Airing's or your best interest for us to publicly announce many of the trade secrets or specifics of our development. (we wish to not update you as much because you annoy us with silly questions like what we are doing with your money) As excited as we may be to share which engineers we work with, materials we incorporate, or equipment we consider utilizing at certain stages, doing so could breach contracts, impede our progress, and significantly delay Airing's release to the public. (and it would also show everyone that we are simply clueless as to what we are doing and actually have nothing to show)     That’s something we cannot risk.  (we want to make sure we have lots of time to hide the money away before anyone starts pressing us with too many questions as to how progress is going)

But you don’t need to worry. (we have your money safely in our off-shore bank accounts)   We intend to find the right balance between protecting our technology and sharing important progress with you. (we will keep using these excuses not to share too much information with you)  Today, we want to give you a few updates on the early stages of Airing's proof of concept prototype, straight from the keyboard of Airing inventor, Stephen Marsh:

 

As a direct result of Airing’s crowdfunding campaign, we have been introduced to a number of significant companies (we have the possibility of getting venture capitalist funding) and have engaged in several very promising technical discussions  (experts told us we are completely out of our mind) . These conversations have led us to an alternative approach to prototyping that should accelerate the proof of concept process. (alternative because the original microblower design is impossible)

We are now under contract with several specialty engineering firms, all of which are busy helping us facilitate prototyping the proof of concept micro-blower devices. (we are paying them a good buck to try to solve the impossible task we gave them)   We have also identified a set of materials and processes that will allow faster prototyping of the proof of concept micro-blower devices.  (we identified how to prototype a proof of concept of an actual device that still we have no idea will perform anywhere close to what is needed for this application)

We are evaluating the possibilities of several major equipment purchases that could give us more control of our schedule and timing. (that new Lambourghini in my driveway will help me get to my appointments on schedule and in good time). :-DD

We are eagerly expecting important results from some of our material processing experiments that will help us select which of the parallel paths we have designed is most appropriate to pursue.

We are continuing to work on many of the various aspects of the prototype in parallel (including micro-blower construction, nosebud and case design improvement, and sustainability options) to reach the testing phase as efficiently as possible.

Of course, the creation of a technology this new does not happen overnight. (or in 2 years when we promised delivery to our backers)    But we are making significant progress and remain on schedule. We will continue to keep you posted in the coming months.

Stay tuned for more. (but don't hold your breath because remember, we don't want to give you important details since our competition might steal it)  


 :palm:
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: bigdawg on October 09, 2015, 09:19:36 pm
Latest update!

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2015/10/9/airing-progress-update-10915 (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2015/10/9/airing-progress-update-10915)

Here is my analysis (text in red bold is my commentary):

Quote
Hi Airing Supporters,

As a company born of the crowd (you), we place enormous value in communicating our progress to everyone who has contributed to the development of the Airing prototype. (we want to make sure you don't start a mob attack on us so we are stringing you along for as long as we can).  Airing is a lean and mean team (there is really nobody working for us, we just wanted to steal your money) and we are determined to keep you updated on our progress while we execute our primary mission of meeting or exceeding our timeline to get this device into your hands.

We are delving into uncharted territory here and couldn’t be more excited. As far as we know, we are the first to develop a breakthrough technology from such an early stage with this large of a supportive community behind it. (we are the biggest ever scam of this type in IndieGogo history)     As you know, the technology in Airing has never been assembled in this way before. (because it is impossible)  The form factor of Airing–from the nosebuds to the micro-blowers–has never existed before. (because they are  not possible to do with today's technology and your relatively small $1 million in funding)    The price-point we’re targeting would have been laughable even a few months ago. (and it is still laughable)    Therefore, the ultimate existence of Airing may very well be seismically disruptive to the sleep apnea treatment industry. (it will be, because nobody believes it is possible and if you actually manage to pull it off it will truly be a miracle of biblical seismic proportions)

Given this anticipated disruption, it will not always be in Airing's or your best interest for us to publicly announce many of the trade secrets or specifics of our development. (we wish to not update you as much because you annoy us with silly questions like what we are doing with your money) As excited as we may be to share which engineers we work with, materials we incorporate, or equipment we consider utilizing at certain stages, doing so could breach contracts, impede our progress, and significantly delay Airing's release to the public. (and it would also show everyone that we are simply clueless as to what we are doing and actually have nothing to show)     That’s something we cannot risk.  (we want to make sure we have lots of time to hide the money away before anyone starts pressing us with too many questions as to how progress is going)

But you don’t need to worry. (we have your money safely in our off-shore bank accounts)   We intend to find the right balance between protecting our technology and sharing important progress with you. (we will keep using these excuses not to share too much information with you)  Today, we want to give you a few updates on the early stages of Airing's proof of concept prototype, straight from the keyboard of Airing inventor, Stephen Marsh:

 

As a direct result of Airing’s crowdfunding campaign, we have been introduced to a number of significant companies (we have the possibility of getting venture capitalist funding) and have engaged in several very promising technical discussions  (experts told us we are completely out of our mind) . These conversations have led us to an alternative approach to prototyping that should accelerate the proof of concept process. (alternative because the original microblower design is impossible)

We are now under contract with several specialty engineering firms, all of which are busy helping us facilitate prototyping the proof of concept micro-blower devices. (we are paying them a good buck to try to solve the impossible task we gave them)   We have also identified a set of materials and processes that will allow faster prototyping of the proof of concept micro-blower devices.  (we identified how to prototype a proof of concept of an actual device that still we have no idea will perform anywhere close to what is needed for this application)

We are evaluating the possibilities of several major equipment purchases that could give us more control of our schedule and timing. (that new Lambourghini in my driveway will help me get to my appointments on schedule and in good time). :-DD

We are eagerly expecting important results from some of our material processing experiments that will help us select which of the parallel paths we have designed is most appropriate to pursue.

We are continuing to work on many of the various aspects of the prototype in parallel (including micro-blower construction, nosebud and case design improvement, and sustainability options) to reach the testing phase as efficiently as possible.

Of course, the creation of a technology this new does not happen overnight. (or in 2 years when we promised delivery to our backers)    But we are making significant progress and remain on schedule. We will continue to keep you posted in the coming months.

Stay tuned for more. (but don't hold your breath because remember, we don't want to give you important details since our competition might steal it)  


 :palm:

 :-DD :-DD :-DD great analysis edy!
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kalidor on December 05, 2015, 09:01:37 am
Got an update today :

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2015/9/21/airing-update-92115 (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2015/9/21/airing-update-92115)

They printed up vouchers to buy their products at discounted prices... if and when they will ever exist.

Too expensive for them, the sent e-mails with a link to the voucher so you can print it by yourself. I assume you can print as many as you like, worthless anyway.  :-DD :-DD :-DD
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on January 31, 2016, 05:33:52 am
Recent update:

The big boys over at Airing spent a bunch of money on some gear in a wooden crate:

(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1453762319/zxzlcstioqiubyqjqrry.jpg)

What do you think is in the box?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Muxr on January 31, 2016, 05:37:38 am
A stripper?...
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on January 31, 2016, 04:57:21 pm
Hi,

Air.


What else would you need to test the Airing?

Jay_Diddy_B
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: tom66 on February 01, 2016, 12:25:20 am
Self-help and advice books for inspiring Indiegogo campaigns?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mtdoc on February 01, 2016, 12:33:01 am
A Horse head?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on March 15, 2016, 01:32:22 am
New update today....

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2016/3/14/airing-progress-update (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2016/3/14/airing-progress-update)

After almost a year and over $1,000,000, they have made one of these....

(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5529f0c3e4b01f43e14adb5b/t/56e72dec859fd0dffb310fe7/1457991165252/AiringtestfixtureDUT?format=1000w)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kean on March 15, 2016, 01:46:14 am
From the latest progress update:
Quote
Soon, we will be able to answer the important question: “Can these tiny micro-blowers successfully blow air?”
Quote
If the micro-blowers pump a net amount of air, and if an increase in pressure is measured at the output, then we know we have built working blowers and will have proven our basic micro-blower concept.

Their original "story" was:
Quote
we need your help to get it out of the lab and into your hands
Which implies they had already done this proof of concept work in the lab, and just needed funding to finalise a design and work towards mass production.
So it was just a concept design with no serious technical or scientific research behind it.  i.e. more IGG vaporware!
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on March 15, 2016, 03:50:28 am
Their original "story" was:
Quote
we need your help to get it out of the lab and into your hands
Which implies they had already done this proof of concept work in the lab, and just needed funding to finalise a design and work towards mass production.
So it was just a concept design with no serious technical or scientific research behind it.  i.e. more IGG vaporware!

Yes this was one of the main critiques from the initial crowd-funding campaign, that they had absolutely no working prototype and just some cockamamie ideas that fed on the desperation of people with a horrible medical condition. Yet they were providing supporters with vouchers for a product that they haven't even proved is at all possible. That's why they went to IGG and not Kickstarter.

According to Airing, they fulfilled the campaign... They delivered vouchers to people. Correct? So technically their obligation is complete. People bought "vouchers" for free Airings, if and when they exist. See how clever Stephen Marsh and his group of experts is? Meanwhile they have $1,000,000+ to mess around with for a number of years to keep themselves busy and maybe invent something actually useful. Let's hope they don't keep stringing everyone along year after year, well past their original delivery deadline and hope for backer atrophy and apathy to shed people off their backs.

For the sake of these sufferers who spent their hard-earned cash on a promise of a miracle device, let's hope Stephen Marsh actually truly believes he is on to something and not a pathological liar who has even convinced himself it can be done and is self-deluded. Then again, all entrepreneurs and visionaries must have a certain element of this psychological attribute to persevere in the face of overwhelming odds... but if you are using other people's money to do it, you had better be more responsible.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: EEVblog on March 15, 2016, 04:10:40 am
Recent update:
The big boys over at Airing spent a bunch of money on some gear in a wooden crate:
What do you think is in the box?

A cymbal clapping monkey?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on March 15, 2016, 09:12:13 am
The box contained a camera. Maybe they could lend their (spare) camera to Dr. Bob...


Jay_Diddy_B
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Rerouter on March 15, 2016, 10:52:46 am
Ok you guys actually peaked my curiousity,

Poking around it appears the nasal cavity volumes are roughly 9cm^3 on average between men and women,
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22648589 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22648589)

The nostril to the lung passageway can be approximated to a 9mm ID diameter tube and approximately 17cm long, to give adequate airflow for a large male (length based off my own nose to ear length)
Based off the google book "Nurse's 5-minute Clinical Consult: Procedures" This comes to a volume of 43mL to me,

For the lungs, with a person fully at rest needs about 7.5L per minute to stay alive, with an average tidal volume of 500mL. Timing my own deep breathing rate, its about 4 seconds per inhale, however i am big and the minimum would put my tidal amount closer to 1L, so a flowrate of 15L per minute on the fan,

Now that is where i run out of approximations i can make, but hopefully that can give someone some ideas on what is possible with those numbers, Pressurize a 43mL volume to 1KPa 8 times a minute and have a flow rate exceeding 15L/ Minute when unobstructed, (keeping such a high flow rate would exceed the rate i breath in, and thus keep a net positive pressure in my head)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: NF6X on March 15, 2016, 04:11:33 pm
For a data point, my CPAP is set for 10 inches H2O pressure, which is about 2.5 kilopascals if some random unit converter I found on the internet is to be trusted. I don't know if that's typical, high, or low. The pressure setting isn't arbitrary. It was determined in a sleep study to be the pressure necessary to be medically effective in pressurizing my fat head.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mtdoc on March 15, 2016, 06:06:22 pm
For a data point, my CPAP is set for 10 inches H2O pressure, which is about 2.5 kilopascals if some random unit converter I found on the internet is to be trusted. I don't know if that's typical, high, or low. The pressure setting isn't arbitrary. It was determined in a sleep study to be the pressure necessary to be medically effective in pressurizing my fat head.

I suspect you mean 10 cm not inches.   10-15 cm is typical. I'd say 10 cm is the most common number I see.

You are absolutely right that titration to the correct value requires a sleep study.

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: NF6X on March 15, 2016, 06:15:20 pm
Thanks for the correction. You're probably right. I'm at work so I can't easily confirm the setting right now.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on March 16, 2016, 03:39:13 am
I'm pretty sure there is a reason why a CPAP machine has to be the size it is, given it is so hated to have a mask strapped on to your face all night and have this noise. The companies who make them would have loved to make them smaller if it was possible, and there are many ways to make them smaller even using existing blower-fan technology. Reasons I can think of why it is difficult to miniaturize:

1. the pressure needs to be sufficient to open the obstruction
2. the air must be humidified
3. the appliance has to be attached to your head or it will slip out due to it's own pressure
4. it must allow for exhalation without falling off
5. there must be sufficient power to run it all night

Just as a "proof of concept" what Airing LLC should have done from the start is simply take one of their blue rubbery nose-pieces (which they have made) and rig in a couple of small tubes hooked up to a conventional blower and see what kind of power and flow is required.

Instead, they have dreamt up this "micro-blower" nano-technology which has never been created before and they have absolutely no way to know if it even works.

My guess is, Stephen Marsh, the "inventor" of this stuff (someone who has also had a number of issues on previous Venture Capitalist technological startups which ended up in court cases... just read the earlier posts in this thread) wanted to get enough money to test out his nano-tech micro-blower concept and created a "killer-application" for it in order to get enough interest to get funded. If he had said he wanted to invent micro-blowers to cool your PC chip, nobody would have bothered giving him any money. But CPAP was a noble and worthy cause, and so he latched on to that idea and sold everyone on the idea.

Let us suppose for a minute that he manages to get these micro-blowers to actually work. They may not be useful for CPAP but may come in handy for other applications. He may spin those off to another company, sell off the intellectual property or license it out. Who knows. But it is a HUGE LEAP OF FAITH for these $1,000,000+ backing community to take on the word of a couple of people who think it should technically work.

Why does Stephen Marsh and the Airing especially bother me? It hits close to home... My father uses a CPAP and my son actually needed to wear a CPAP for a few months when he was an infant (it was not a good feeling to put one of these machines on your baby every night and try to have him sleep comfortably).

I'm a medically trained professional and small business owner who had to borrow a huge amount of money to start up my office. I didn't crowd-fund the funds, I put it all on my back. Every business is a risk but I am personally accountable and because of that had to work hard and through many sleepless nights to ensure I didn't lose the shirt off my back.

Now you have Stephen Marsh and his group of experts, all fairly well-to-do professionals who could have obtained the money through loans and feel some accountability. Instead, they used crowd-funding for a number of different reasons to shield themselves in case things go sour. The idea sounded far-fetched from the beginning and it still is nowhere closer to being proven to work today than it was when they obtained their crowd-funding at 896% over-funded on July 16, 2015 (about 8 months ago).

We've already seen an update where Stephen Marsh admits it will take another $7,000,000 or so to actually make the prototypes. Where he gets these numbers I have no idea, but to imagine then their original target was $100,000? They managed to get $896,000 in their campaign time and then continued "InDemand" funding and now up over $1.2 million.... and Stephen Marsh admits he can't get the project finished without another $7,000,000.....  :wtf:

I would be the first one to applaud Marsh and his team if they can pull this off. I'll keep watching...  :popcorn:

But we see so many other similar campaigns and you can't help but think this is in the same class as Skarp, uBeam, Batteriser... same scientific shenanigans and lack of functioning prototypes, hyperbole-filled rhetoric and raised huge amounts of money with nothing to show for it.

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Dave Atom on March 16, 2016, 03:45:53 pm
For a data point, my CPAP is set for 10 inches H2O pressure, which is about 2.5 kilopascals if some random unit converter I found on the internet is to be trusted. I don't know if that's typical, high, or low. The pressure setting isn't arbitrary. It was determined in a sleep study to be the pressure necessary to be medically effective in pressurizing my fat head.

Mines at 10cm too, and let's not forget the energy needed for the monitor system to ensure constant pressure during exhalation and inhalation.

I think I will stick with the light weight mask I use now, I don't fancy a couple of tubes with barbs hanging onto the inside of my nostrils all night  ^-^

Last year (I read the whole damn thread) someone mentioned about air blowing out your mouth, sleeping with your mouth closed is easy with practice :) even speaking with air blowing into your nose is a simple process once you have a few goes  :=\
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Khendrask on April 11, 2016, 02:14:56 pm
New April update on the 1,000,000 + Airing scampaign.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/updates (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/updates)

I can't be positive, but it certainly looks like the "MicroBlower" is a chewing gum wrapper, and the drive circuitry seems a tad large for a noseplug wearable...
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on April 17, 2016, 11:21:48 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf0YPMWcdT0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf0YPMWcdT0)

I see nothing but a dog and pony show to please backers. Why are the guys in the lab wearing disposable medical scrubs? No substantial evidence that anything is working. Even the Skarp laser razor, while horribly inefficient and fragile, did at least show hair being cut. Airing doesn't even show a micro blower (working or otherwise).

They have over $1 million and have been working on it for 8-9 months presumably. Patents should be pending. They can't show the world anything?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: helius on April 20, 2016, 07:52:08 pm
I don't understand why he has connected a 3KV electrophoresis supply to the apparatus under the microscope. Some kind of micromachine that runs on such a high voltage is not very likely.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rolycat on April 20, 2016, 08:05:53 pm
I don't understand why he has connected a 3KV electrophoresis supply to the apparatus under the microscope. Some kind of micromachine that runs on such a high voltage is not very likely.

That does look an awful lot like the EPS 3500 XL (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/3-5kv-power-supply-teardown/) of which I did a teardown a few years ago.

You might almost think he borrowed someone else's bio lab and just hooked up likely looking bits of equipment to some random components he brought in...
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kean on April 21, 2016, 02:38:13 am
You might almost think he borrowed someone else's bio lab and just hooked up likely looking bits of equipment to some random components he brought in...

That's exactly what I thought when I watched it!
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on April 21, 2016, 02:55:47 am
Here is an image of the setup:

(http://i67.tinypic.com/23hvz9t.jpg)

Yes... it does look like that electrophoresis supply:

(http://www.diversified-equipment.com/Pics/35643.jpg)

And here's what I think was in that giant wooden crate from a message postings back:

(http://i63.tinypic.com/wsk00n.jpg)

Looks an aweful lot like this:  http://www.pva.net/products/Benchtop-Coating-Dispensing-System_116.htm (http://www.pva.net/products/Benchtop-Coating-Dispensing-System_116.htm)

(http://www.smtnet.com/media/images/PVA350-dispenser.jpg)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kean on April 21, 2016, 03:47:55 am
And here's what I think was in that giant wooden crate from a message postings back:
...
Looks an aweful lot like this:  http://www.pva.net/products/Benchtop-Coating-Dispensing-System_116.htm (http://www.pva.net/products/Benchtop-Coating-Dispensing-System_116.htm)

Good work!
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: EEVblog on April 21, 2016, 05:33:20 am
What the heck is that board?  :-//
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-airing/?action=dlattach;attach=218713;image)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: EEVblog on April 21, 2016, 06:09:11 am
I don't understand why he has connected a 3KV electrophoresis supply to the apparatus under the microscope. Some kind of micromachine that runs on such a high voltage is not very likely.

I don't get that either
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kean on April 21, 2016, 06:32:40 am
Looks like a half H-bridge driver - possibly high-voltage drive based on the electrophoresis supply and transistor packages.

Also seems to have a IC powered from battery (for HV isolation?) - possibly an adjustable frequency oscillator for the driver?
Title: The Airing
Post by: RadioAct on April 21, 2016, 07:55:17 am
That is some high voltage fun you are going to insert up your nostrils. :s
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on April 21, 2016, 11:16:57 am
And here's what I think was in that giant wooden crate from a message postings back:
...
Looks an aweful lot like this:  http://www.pva.net/products/Benchtop-Coating-Dispensing-System_116.htm (http://www.pva.net/products/Benchtop-Coating-Dispensing-System_116.htm)

Good work!

Actually, that machine can be seen behind the crate. So crate must have had something else.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kean on April 21, 2016, 12:25:08 pm
Actually, that machine can be seen behind the crate. So crate must have had something else.

Indeed, but still good sleuthing work on finding that machine.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on April 21, 2016, 12:55:20 pm
I don't understand why he has connected a 3KV electrophoresis supply to the apparatus under the microscope. Some kind of micromachine that runs on such a high voltage is not very likely.

I don't get that either
Micropumps are often piezo-electric. The Murata ones use about 0.2W at 15V and can do 0.5 L/minute at 1kPa pressure (mid range sleep apnea pressure). Now probably at least 6 L/minute is needed, and that would mean 2W. A tiny lithium battery would be lucky to last an hour.

It could be that they are using a high voltage piezo, or even electrostatic forces to get more efficiency. Electrostatic would mean using in the kVolts region. The mystery wooden box is likely to be a press so they can make custom micropump foil shapes in the lab.

If efficiency savings are not enough, they may be only switching the Airling on when the breathing pattern is interrupted. I have no idea of the number here, but if it was common to have 200 breathing interruptions a night and they had to provide positive pressure for 30 seconds each time, that would be 100 minutes of operation a night.

Better efficiency for a breathing machine - I like that. The current machines are probably very inefficient, and that is a problem for travel, battery backup weight, etc. A machine that only needed 20W a night could be made pretty small and portable. Even if moisture is needed, adding unheated water is often enough to stop dry throats and you probably only need a 20mL a night if it is unheated and high efficiency.

The Airling doesn't add any moisture, so that is another reason to think it must only switch on when there is a breathing event. A constant pressure apnae machine with no moisture can get very uncomfortable. 

The idea that you use a new Airing every night sounds bonkers. And they recycle them. So you will be getting cleaned units that lots of other people have already used.

It is possible the numbers for the Airling may just add up, but it still seems an extremely tough target to reach. The number seem very marginal at best, but it is not necessarily the same level of scientific dodgyness the uBeam, Batteriser and the Triton. If they can get the pump and the HV drive electronics right, it would be a very simple device that could be made cheaply.

Richard
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mtdoc on April 21, 2016, 05:55:14 pm

The Airling doesn't add any moisture, so that is another reason to think it must only switch on when there is a breathing event. A constant pressure apnae machine with no moisture can get very uncomfortable. 

Pumping non-humidified air through the nose is a non starter - it will quickly lead to cracked, bleeding nasal mucosa.  This is just one more reason why I believe the Airing is just a scam and nothing else.

BTW - it's not possible to treat obstructive sleep apnea (OSA) with a device that just switches on with a "breathing event".  The very nature of OSA is that you need a constant positive pressure to keep the airway open at all times in order to effectively treat it. 

IMO, the Airing, just like the Triton, is a con - with just enough techno babble and pseudo techno videos to lure in the unsuspecting - either to attract new "backers" or to string current suckers backers along so they continue to believe they will eventually get something for their money.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on April 21, 2016, 06:16:51 pm
The number seem very marginal at best, but it is not necessarily the same level of scientific dodgyness the uBeam, Batteriser and the Triton. If they can get the pump and the HV drive electronics right, it would be a very simple device that could be made cheaply.
Richard

They may actually develop something useful (perhaps a cooler for microchips or other applications)... but I am weary of their "shot in the dark" marginal-use approach for the Airing sleep-apnea device. When they decided to make this device, it was on the same level as other "Star Trek" campaigns....  a big leap of faith as to whether they could develop a better microblower, a better battery pack, a better everything, all of which was orders of magnitude better than what exists today.

Not to mention, Marsh himself admitted on the short-comings of their crowd-sourced funding, saying they needed at least 2-3x more money to bring this product to backers (another $7-8 million or more... see previous posts in this thread).

My gut feeling is telling me that this is all a scheme to bring in venture-capitalist rounds of funding down the road... once something more tangible gets made, he can get support or grab a few more patents and sell it off.

He crowd-sourced to get the initial funds to start development, promising a product that would take 2-3x more money to actually deliver to backers (which he has already admitted), with absolutely no prototype of the core unit that is supposed to make it all work.

I highly doubt he would have had the same support if his campaign was "Donate now to start lab development on some new mechanism for a type of micro blower that could possibly be used for sleep apnea devices". No... his campaign was promising to deliver Airings, at very cheap cost, by the thousands, disposable, battery powered, no wires or tubes attached, prescription approved. That's a huge stretch from trying to figure out if some "conceptual" type of micro-blower (electrostatic piezo or whatever) is even able to function and with what efficiency.

I commend Marsh for doing this type of research... don't get me wrong. It's awesome, but I'm not so sure the crowd-funding was the best way to do it. I know crowd-funding has risks and people are supposed to know they are not buying anything, but you try explaining that to the people who funded Airing when they are left wondering what, if anything they are going to get a few years down the road (except a voucher for Airings when they ever become available).

Marsh should have done what he did initially when he was involved in his other failed ventures... with Integrated Fuel Cell Technologies, Inc, Echelon Ventures, L.P., and Encite, LLC. He should have pitched this "Airing"idea to venture capitalists and set up timelines to get to certain milestones and deliver. Having a legal framework, obligations and responsibilities, real risk on Marsh.... and all parties involved that understand the risk and are invested in the project and also stand to gain tremendous payback. 

Perhaps he lost credibility in raising venture capital, and decided to go to crowd-funding as an easy way to raise money with no real responsibility, and with investing parties that are unlikely to sue and also unable to really truly comprehend the real risk of what they are doing, and no legally binding contract.

For those of you not familiar, read this: http://www.potteranderson.com/delawarecase-185.html (http://www.potteranderson.com/delawarecase-185.html)

Crowd-funding is way way easier, and that is the reason why so many people get taken advantage of and why people who have shoddy or dubious histories can get away with it.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on April 21, 2016, 08:23:04 pm

The Airling doesn't add any moisture, so that is another reason to think it must only switch on when there is a breathing event. A constant pressure apnae machine with no moisture can get very uncomfortable. 

Pumping non-humidified air through the nose is a non starter - it will quickly lead to cracked, bleeding nasal mucosa.

I don't think that is always true. There are people who need constant pressure. There are people who don't. Existing machines are at the end of a long hose so they cannot respond as quickly as a device plugged into the nose. I bet there is a large number of people who can benefit by something that provides pressure at the start of a breath to clear the obstruction, and then they can manage the rest of the breath.

If it is not blowing dry air continuously into the nose, it will be no more drying then normal breathing. If you live in a cold climate abd have a heated bedroom, then you have dry air from the start and I bet there are many people who suffer without a breathing machine.

There are a huge number of people who try to use a CPAP machine and give up. I remember speaking to one of the top sleep disorder doctors in Sydney and he said "I couldn't use one of these machines myself". More solutions are desperately needed. Something like this that assists could be a godsend.

The technical problem is that have to design a pump/valve system that doesn't exist yet. They will have to try hundreds or thousand of foil membrane patterns in the hope they can crack it. This could take months, or years, or they might never crack it at all. Since they don't have a pump yet, they don't actually know the size of the device yet.

Is this worth developing? - yes probably. Is crowdfunding the right way to develop this? Not really.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: NF6X on April 21, 2016, 08:41:33 pm
I have no idea of the number here, but if it was common to have 200 breathing interruptions a night

I can only offer my own data sample: 100 breathing interruptions per hour. And the added humidity is important. If I try to use the unit without refilling the water tank, I'll regret it by morning.

The point of the constant pressure provided by a CPAP is to prevent the breathing interruptions in the first place, not to respond to them after they have already happened.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mtdoc on April 21, 2016, 09:24:15 pm

The Airling doesn't add any moisture, so that is another reason to think it must only switch on when there is a breathing event. A constant pressure apnae machine with no moisture can get very uncomfortable. 

Pumping non-humidified air through the nose is a non starter - it will quickly lead to cracked, bleeding nasal mucosa.

I don't think that is always true. There are people who need constant positive pressure. There are people who don't.

If they have OSA they need CPAP as in Continuous Positive Airway Pressure. You need pressure maintained to keep the airway open -  - to prevent the obstruction from occurring in the first place. 

Perhaps you're thinking of BiPAP, which is another form of respiratory support with 2 levels of pressure (Bilevel Positive Airway Presssure) but it still maintains a positive pressure even during the exhale. Generally BiPAP pressure levels are higher than CPAP pressures it is usually not used for OSA. BiPap is used in the hospital all the time for people in acute respiratory failure.

If someone doesn't need constant pressure - they don't have OSA - or it is so mild they don't need anything.

The whole marketing of the Airing is that it is supposed to replace CPAP machines!

Even if you could find a way to treat OSA with only positive pressure delivered at the exact moment needed before the patient began initiating inspiration - how would the device know when that was?  What sort of sensor would it use? What would be the latency be between the event trigger and achieving the necessary positive pressure?  Does the airing propose such a thing?

This is not a trivial problem - and if something like this was possible - and I'm sure the medical device manufacturers have researched this - it would likely already exist and the product would not be something the size of the airing.

Quote
If it is not blowing dry air continuously into the nose, it will be no more drying then normal breathing.

Incorrect. Both the air pressure and the volume of air per unit time passing over the nasal mucosa is important.   Only in the most extreme humid environments would the fictitious Airing microblower not dry out the nasal mucosa intolerably.

See NF6X's comments below.  Even with the humidifier used with normal CPAP - some have problems with drying out of the nasal mucosa.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kalidor on April 22, 2016, 10:06:15 am
I don't understand why he has connected a 3KV electrophoresis supply to the apparatus under the microscope. Some kind of micromachine that runs on such a high voltage is not very likely.

I don't get that either

Lets ask them in the comments, they should do some work for my $1.  >:D
btw it's 3.5KV/100W -> http://www.sci-support.com/items/Pharmacia-Amersham-EPS-3500-Electrophoresis-Power-Supply-1409.htm (http://www.sci-support.com/items/Pharmacia-Amersham-EPS-3500-Electrophoresis-Power-Supply-1409.htm)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: snoopy on April 22, 2016, 11:01:09 am
Hey all.  I am new here.  I have some field experience repairing electronic devices.  But a couple of things from scratch to make life easier and what not.  So I am not a total newbie.
 
 But I am scratching my head and wondering if anyone has thoughts on this product.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story)

Airing: the first hoseless, maskless, micro-CPAP

My wife uses a CPAP and i just don't see how you can get the air-flow that a big machine produces in such a tiny package.

It's a total con and can't possibly work !!

It reminds me of the time I tried to blow up an air mattress with a small tire compressor. After two hours it was only half inflated but with a 12 volt vacuum cleaner with air fan blower it did it in a couple of minutes !!

Not only that if it could generate the air pressure required how does it stay in the noise without blowing off ?

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mikerj on April 22, 2016, 11:46:26 am
Not only that if it could generate the air pressure required how does it stay in the noise without blowing off ?

Comes with a tube of superglue.  You also have to glue your lips together to stop the air escaping straight out of your mouth.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on June 13, 2016, 03:57:52 pm
Here's an update from Airing (see attached PDF). They are saying their micro-blowers are moving air. Ok, still a long long long way to go...  :popcorn:   Meanwhile, they did not give up another opportunity to promote another perk to raise more money, so the On Demand funding continues. Good job Stephen Marsh!  :-+  Looking forward to seeing what a number of microblowers all running in parallel can accomplish.

[EDIT: Updated PDF file]
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 15, 2016, 01:00:55 pm
I see some users are finally waking up to the scam and getting cold feet. Well, no refunds for you! See comment screenshot and reply posted by Airing. People should have read the terms of use.

NOTE: From all their updates, I still see nothing, not even proof of a functioning working prototype. Last thing I saw was they built a test-bed to put their prototype in, but I have yet to see any video or close-up photos of the actual microblower being tested, or even any hint that it moves air (at any rate at all). Still no idea of the pressures and flow rate this thing does, not even an approximate order-of-magnitude hint.

18 more months for this debacle to reveal itself for what it truly is....

Here's their refund policy in their FAQ, another part of this scam campaign that the contributor ignored:

Quote
To request a refund, please contact the Customer Happiness team, and they will process your request within one business day. Refunds will be issued based on the payment method used to make the contribution, and may take three to five business days to appear on your statement.

Please be advised that contributions to Airing are not refundable beyond the policy stated above (within 10 days of contribution). After this period, Indiegogo takes out their fees, the remaining funds are transferred to us (without your credit card/payment information), and we begin putting those funds to good use.  By making a contribution to this campaign, you acknowledge that you understand that you are contributing to fund the development of the Airing micro-CPAP device and not making a direct purchase. We appreciate your support, and we are hard at work developing the Airing prototype.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on July 16, 2016, 01:29:11 am
18 more months for this debacle to reveal itself for what it truly is....
No need for 18 months. It is a very slick but obvious scam. CPAP requires several orders of magnitude more energy than any known battery that could possibly fit that form factor device mock-up. The powersupply for contemporary CPAP machines is similar in size and capacity to a laptop powersupply of 10 years ago. Could be 50 to 100 Watts for 8 hours.

There is no way the pressure required to hold the airways open could be overcome without a strap to hold the mask in place.
As I understand it, it does not need the same power as a CPAP because it does not work the way as a conventional CPAP. The pump only switches on when there is a CPAP event, and so the power consumed is dependant on how many CPAP events an individual person has and how long the Airling has to boost the pressure for each event. The airflow is less then a conventional CPAP since the conventional CPAP supply a lot of air that goes straight out of the mask vents. The CPAP machine is also still pumping when you are breathing out and the Airling concept does not do that. That is probably a 50% power saving.

This does make it sound like at best, it is a device a doctor could prescribe to particular sufferers that needed a mild CPAP assistance. I would think a chronic sufferer would probably need constant pressure and the Airling concept cannot do that all night.

The problems about the lack of a humidifier have been discussed before - it is probably only usable if you live in a location with a regular high humidity. When the air is dry, you would want to revert to a conventional CPAP with a humidifier.

The fact they made the product from the start something small enough to fit to the nose without a strap does make it an all-or-nothing risky product. They will only find if they can make a useable product when they do the research which is in this case funded by the crowdsourcing campaign. It seems they got the money before:


Add to that the idea that you can obtain and use it without a doctor prescribing the device makes it even worse.

If you put money into the Airling campaign, you are investing in the development of the product along with a voucher that gives you a few months worth of Airling devices IF it becomes available. As long as you get the voucher and they use your money to pay for development - whether successful or not - Ailing have met their obligations. You have got exactly what you asked for.

If they are actually doing research into the Airling concept, I probably wouldn't call it a scam but it is a business that has a very high chance of failure.

You can always frame the voucher and hang it on the wall.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mtdoc on July 16, 2016, 05:28:02 am
18 more months for this debacle to reveal itself for what it truly is....
No need for 18 months. It is a very slick but obvious scam. CPAP requires several orders of magnitude more energy than any known battery that could possibly fit that form factor device mock-up. The powersupply for contemporary CPAP machines is similar in size and capacity to a laptop powersupply of 10 years ago. Could be 50 to 100 Watts for 8 hours.

There is no way the pressure required to hold the airways open could be overcome without a strap to hold the mask in place.
As I understand it, it does not need the same power as a CPAP because it does not work the way as a conventional CPAP. The pump only switches on when there is a CPAP event, and so the power consumed is dependant on how many CPAP events an individual person has and how long the Airling has to boost the pressure for each event. The airflow is less then a conventional CPAP since the conventional CPAP supply a lot of air that goes straight out of the mask vents. The CPAP machine is also still pumping when you are breathing out and the Airling concept does not do that. That is probably a 50% power saving.

There seems to be a misunderstanding here of how CPAP works. CPAP stands for Continuous Positive Airway Pressure. There is good reason for the continuous part - it's  not just an accident or poor engineering.  What you describe would not be CPAP and it would not be effective for obstructive sleep apnea.

This was all discussed previously.

Quote
The problems about the lack of a humidifier have been discussed before - it is probably only usable if you live in a location with a regular high humidity. When the air is dry, you would want to revert to a conventional CPAP with a humidifier.

Yes, discussed earlier and debunked. Humidity would need to be close to 100 % - maybe in a rainforest...

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on July 16, 2016, 05:52:14 am
Yes, discussed earlier and debunked. Humidity would need to be close to 100 % - maybe in a rainforest...
Well then I will have to debunk the debunkers. I have a CPAP and I was able to use it throughout summer with no humidifier without the slightest problem as long as the air is not heated. I have no airconditioning or heating in the bedroom so the air is at the normal outside humidity. If the bedroom was heated, I would need a humidifier.

When winter came, I did have to go back to the humidifier as I was waking up with a very dry nose and mouth. I live at about 1100 meters elevation and the humidity is typically 40% to 60%. It is almost never 100%.

The concept that a humidifier is always needed - particularly in the case of a device that is only running part time is just total nonsense. I am sure there are some people who do find that they always need a humidifier but there are also plenty of people who do not always need a humidifier.

If it is possible to make an Airling device and it could last the night, it would have a real use. You would have to have a normal CPAP as well for when you cannot use the Airling.

And I do understand that CPAP does mean constant pressure and the Airling is not. Fair enough. CPAP machines are only constant pressure because it is a very simple and very reliable way to achieve a result. It is not because a constant pressure is the only way to achieve the result.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mtdoc on July 16, 2016, 06:55:08 am
Yes, discussed earlier and debunked. Humidity would need to be close to 100 % - maybe in a rainforest...
Well then I will have to debunk the debunkers. I have a CPAP and I was able to use it throughout summer with no humidifier without the slightest problem as long as the air is not heated. I have no airconditioning or heating in the bedroom so the air is at the normal outside humidity. If the bedroom was heated, I would need a humidifier.

When winter came, I did have to go back to the humidifier as I was waking up with a very dry nose and mouth. I live at about 1100 meters elevation and the humidity is typically 40% to 60%. It is almost never 100%.

Well you're unusual then. Anytime I've seen it used without a humidifier for anything other than short periods - a few days -it is not tolerated at all - their nasal mucosa starts getting too dry. . That's in the pacific northwest USA - not a dry climate. But fair enough -I suppose I was being overly dramatic with the 100% figure. But it defies the reality of the physiology of nasal mucosa  that you can run air over it at a significantly lower humidity (and high pressure) without drying it out. I think if you had a "microblower" trying to ramp up pressure quickly with every inspiration it would only be worse.

Quote
. Fair enough. CPAP machines are only constant pressure because it is a very simple and very reliable way to achieve a result. It is not because a constant pressure is the only way to achieve the result.
It is not because it is simple - it is because that is what is needed. If you "wait until a CPAP event" by which I suppose you mean wait until the start of an apnea event -  to initiiate positive pressure -  it's already too late. Even if you open the airway very quickly  (doubtful) - it's too late. Sleep architecture will have already been disrupted.  That is just the reality of treating OSA - you simply must keep the airway open and prevent the obstruction BEFORE the brainstem initiates an inspiration and keep it open through exhalation. That can only be done with surgery that changes the anatomy or positive pressure present before the initiation of inspiration and continued through exhalation. The positive pressure can be lower during exhalation (as it is with Bipap) but can't be zero. And even Bipap - doesn't generally adequately treat OSA.

The Airing has marketed itself as a miniature alternative to CPAP. If they think they have invented a way to effectively treat OSA without using CPAP then perhaps they should first demonstrate that with a full sized and traditionally powered device. Only then should they try to miniaturize it with mythical "microblowers' and magic batteries. 

Based on what I've seen so far, the Airing is barely better than the Triton scam.


Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: trophosphere on July 16, 2016, 07:26:03 am
And I do understand that CPAP does mean constant pressure and the Airling is not. Fair enough. CPAP machines are only constant pressure because it is a very simple and very reliable way to achieve a result. It is not because a constant pressure is the only way to achieve the result.

One of the reasons for continuous positive airway pressure in the instance of obstructive sleep apnea is to prevent the obstruction from occurring in the first place as obstruction can occur both in the inspiratory and expiratory phases of the respiratory cycle. Example of obstruction during the expiratory phase is retropalatal narrowing - Starling Resistor.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on July 16, 2016, 08:21:58 am
Well you're unusual then. Anytime I've seen it used without a humidifier for anything other than short periods - a few days -it is not tolerated at all - their nasal mucosa starts getting too dry. . That's in the pacific northwest USA - not a dry climate. But fair enough -I suppose I was being overly dramatic with the 100% figure. But it defies the reality of the physiology of nasal mucosa  that you can run air over it at a significantly lower humidity (and high pressure) without drying it out. I think if you had a "microblower" trying to ramp up pressure quickly with every inspiration it would only be worse.

The "high pressure" is usually 20cmH2O maximum when atmospheric pressure is about 1000cmH2O - so we are talking about a 0.3% to 2% pressure increase above atmospheric pressure. It is a slight positive pressure.

Also the air flow is the same as normal breathing - you are breathing normally with a slight positive pressure, but you breath just the same as you would without the CPAP. The moisture content is unchanged - it is the same as the outside air as long as the CPAP is not heating the air.

Now if you sometimes open your mouth while you are asleep, then you get air flowing straight from the nose to the mouth and unless the air is very humid, you do get your nasal mucosa drying out pretty severly. I seem to be able to keep my mouth closed while I am sleeping. Some people have to tape their mouth shut to do  this. This is one of the main reasons that so many people cannot cope with CPAP. After 30 months only 50% of CPAP patients are still using CPAP and that 50% are only averaging 3.6 hours of CPAP a night

Many would regards those numbers as a massive failure and yet this is the solution the doctors keep calling the "gold standard" solution for sleep apnoea.

Quote
...

Based on what I've seen so far, the Airing is barely better than the Triton scam.
Triton said they had a working prototype and yet there was never a sign of a working prototype. They made claims like the wordwide LOX distribution network that were impossible. It was a physically impossible product and there was no sign of any development work at all.

Airling say they have an idea and are asking for money to develop the idea. They did not have any working prototype. The idea theoretically is possible, but being theoretically possible and being practically possible are two different things. They seem to have employed engineers and there has been some work. They are entitled to pay themselves and the staff wages so they will profit even if they are unsuccessful.

Airling were not even offering a discount in their campaign. They claim that the Airling will cost 60c after insurance reimbursement when it gets to market in the US. On the campaign they were offering vouchers for Airlings at $1.50 each! If you subscribed the campaign, you get the Airling at 2.5 times the price you would pay if you didn't invest.   :palm:

The only reasons for a person with even a slightly working brain would invest is because they decide to trust in the developers even though they may fail and they are prepared to lose their the money on the chance they may help get the device to market.

The Triton campaigns seemed to be all lies. When have the Airling developers lied?

I think we both agree that the chances of anyone being able to use their vouchers for the Airling is extremely remote. As you point out, the technical problems are huge if not unsurmountable, and then they have to convince the doctors and regulators that the device is safe. People will probably get exactly what they invested in, even if it is not what they were hoping to get. They invested in research into an idea. Research into new ideas is always extremely risky and usually looses money.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: NF6X on July 16, 2016, 08:42:53 am
As you point out, the technical problems are huge if not unsurmountable, and then they have to convince the doctors and regulators that the device is safe.

In the medical field, it's not enough to convince the doctors and regulators that a device is safe. It must be demonstrated to be safe and effective.

As mtdoc points out, medical ethics strongly suggest that a scheme which involves "[a] pump [which] only switches on when there is a CPAP event [sic]" should be demonstrated to be a medically effective remedy for obstructive sleep apnea before they beg for money to develop the product. The medical research needs to come first; the engineering of a particularly tiny implementation can come later, and representing a nonexistent implementation of an unproven treatment as effective is unethical.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on July 16, 2016, 08:53:35 am
And I do understand that CPAP does mean constant pressure and the Airling is not. Fair enough. CPAP machines are only constant pressure because it is a very simple and very reliable way to achieve a result. It is not because a constant pressure is the only way to achieve the result.

One of the reasons for continuous positive airway pressure in the instance of obstructive sleep apnea is to prevent the obstruction from occurring in the first place as obstruction can occur both in the inspiratory and expiratory phases of the respiratory cycle. Example of obstruction during the expiratory phase is retropalatal narrowing - Starling Resistor.
Yes. There are lots of different apnoea conditions and this is why currently you have to get tested in a sleep study before being offered a sleep apnoea solution.

A device like the Airling would still need a fortune spent in research after they have a working device to formalise exactly when it can and cannot be used. All the Indiegogo campaign money can achieve at best is to develop the device to a point at which a rich medical company is prepared to put in the massive investment to do the needed clinical trials and research.

As I mentioned in my last post, the current apnoea solutions overall would rate as a failure - they don't work for most people. If the Airling was able to just provide a 20% improvement for some of the people who cannot use the current machines, it would still be a worthwhile device. 20% is much better then nothing, and nothing is what over half the current diagnosed apnoea sufferers are getting in the long term.

I do not know the number of the diagnosed apnoea sufferers who are getting a 100% solution from the current CPAP machines but is may be something like 5%. It is pretty bad.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on July 16, 2016, 09:02:03 am
The medical research needs to come first; the engineering of a particularly tiny implementation can come later, and representing a nonexistent implementation of an unproven treatment as effective is unethical.
A lot of truth in that. Airling may argue that they need to make the device first before research can be done using their device, but they did not make the point that even if they successfully make the device using the campaign money, it does not mean it will actually be possible to sell it to anyone.

Even if they are ultimately successful - by that stage, the product will probably be owned by another bigger company and the product will have different name, a different cost and will have nothing to do with the useless vouchers you have kept for the last 10 years.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on July 16, 2016, 11:56:31 pm
Hi group,

I missed this earlier.

In this picture:

(http://i67.tinypic.com/23hvz9t.jpg)

Taken from the update video. You can see the high voltage supply that has already been identified.
I think that the power devices are made by IXYS. Here is an example of one of the parts:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-airing/?action=dlattach;attach=240829;image)

The HP box is an HP8111A pulse generator. So it looks like this is a half-bridge h.v. driver.

They need high voltage to get the forces needed to move air with the micro blower. The same reason electrostatic speakers need high voltage.

I haven't a clue as to how you would build a miniature, efficient high voltage supply and the high voltage driver running of a coin cell.

I don't think I would want a 2-3 kV power supply stuck up my nose.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-airing/?action=dlattach;attach=240831;image)

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B


Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on July 17, 2016, 12:44:29 am
I don't think I would want a 2-3 kV power supply stuck up my nose.
Now that is a problem! A totally safe 3000V ozone-free generator in your nose that costs $3 to retail and that will keep working in spite of high humidity, condensation. etc . Has to cost less then $1 to manufacture and that price has to include the electronics, the pump, the battery, medical liability insurance, medical grade silicon rubber. This thing would still have power in the battery when you throw it out each day. They will probably have to have a recycle scheme built into the price as well.

How many dB of audio noise or ultrasonic noise does it generate?

I was thinking it may have a 1% chance of success, but now that seems overly optimistic.


Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kean on July 17, 2016, 09:59:36 am
I think that the power devices are made by IXYS. Here is an example of one of the parts:
...
The HP box is an HP8111A pulse generator. So it looks like this is a half-bridge h.v. driver.

:-+ Yep, that was my also conclusion here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-airing/msg923590/?topicseen#msg923590 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-airing/msg923590/?topicseen#msg923590)

Quote
I don't think I would want a 2-3 kV power supply stuck up my nose.
:-DD
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 17, 2016, 12:20:24 pm
I have been suspicious of Stephen Marsh's motivations since reading about his previously troubled venture capital backed project and legal fallout and lawsuits (Echelon, etc.).

What I believe is going on here is Marsh wanted to continue doing research, could not get any V.C. investor due to his sketchy previous history, and came up with this idea for crowd funding his lab instead.

I don't know what progress he will make on this micro blower. I am predicting that we will never see an Airing but we may see some kind of new electrostatic nanotechnology device that may perhaps have some applications somewhere which Marsh will patent and perhaps sell off. Even a functioning micro blower with specs required for Airing is a long long shot... but some small piezoelectric electrostatic or whatever device that *may* find some use in any industrial application... who knows.

Either way, backers get nothing. I am sure all of these OSA sufferers knew this going in [sarcasm].


EDIT:

After following this thing for the past year, and reading my past posts, I have had some realizations:

1. I cannot know Stephen Marsh's TRUE intentions. He may genuinely believe in his idea and be doing everything possible to make it happen. So it is wrong of me to jump to the conclusion that he is a scammer. He may be just misguided by his "experts" that want to work with him to make this thing work. He is not a nanotech engineer as far as I know. Also, there is a kind of "self-delusion" that some inventors have that can sometimes be a good quality... keep working until a breakthrough occurs, or pathological... like keep working in futility and not knowing when to quit, and losing everything in the process.

2. Crowd-funders are ultimately responsible for whether they give their money or not to campaigns. They need to understand the risks and it seems clearly spelled out. The more I have seen the crowd-funding space, the more I am starting to think that the stupidity of backers is ultimately to blame for this market. Marsh never promised Airings, he promised vouchers and research to get started on Airing development. He never promised they'd even make it to market (FDA approval, etc). He also didn't say he had anything working, it is clear he had a pencil-on-a-napkin drawing he dreamed up of "micro-blowers" and the rest was a HUGE LEAP OF FAITH that backers took.

Based on these revelations, I am less critical of Stephen Marsh now than I was originally. He may be a dreamer and inventor, deluded and perhaps misguided in his understanding of physics, but he is doing what he believes may lead to something. On the other hand, maybe he is just scamming money. The point is, I DO NOT KNOW and therefore I CAN'T JUDGE his character or motivations.

However, crowd-funding has "enabled" these dreamers and inventors, and scammers. It's like giving a drug to a drug addict. Who is to blame? The drug addict? Or people who give him money or drugs to enable the behavior?


Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 22, 2016, 05:58:13 pm
AIRING UPDATE! They're MOVING AIR!

Just received this update:

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2016/7/21/airing-prototype-update-a-major-milestone-crossed (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2016/7/21/airing-prototype-update-a-major-milestone-crossed)

(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5529f0c3e4b01f43e14adb5b/t/5791249c59cc68f0de72f475/1469129889671/?format=500w)

(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5529f0c3e4b01f43e14adb5b/t/57912466d2b8573d02021387/1469129845431/?format=500w)


There's still a long way to go, like characterizing what exactly is happening here. I'd like to know what exactly we are looking at in their demonstration. Any ideas?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on July 23, 2016, 03:13:12 am
Hi,
The video shows a top down view of the membrane. I think you are looking at the membrane going in and out of focus. In the update, provided by Airing, they are saying this is being triggered manually, so that you can see the movement, in normal use the membrane will be moving so fast that it will be a blur.

I am assuming that are valves (not shown) at the input and output ports of the micro blower.

Here is a picture from fundairing.com:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/the-airing/?action=dlattach;attach=242708;image)

This shows the device will be an array of these micro blowers.

Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kilrah on July 23, 2016, 08:53:53 am
A sort of pump that is obviously missing a pair of one-way valves.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 24, 2016, 09:40:19 pm
This GIF animation doesn't give any idea of scale either in space or time. We still have no idea of the size and geometrical design, unless it is following the rendering (which I highly doubt can be manufactured as shown). If there are plates being electrostatically charged, they need to have electrodes independently to each plate and the movement must be smooth and even with insulating coatings or space limiter to keep the charges from jumping plates. Their "bellows" rendering is mechanically not guaranteed to move evenly up and down, and the sliding movement has too much freedom.

Whatever they made, it looks more like a disc shape perhaps with 2 thin flexible plates separated by a thin air gap, and when they charge the plates they squeeze together in the middle. If there is a small hole somewhere it will let air move in and out of the thin gap between plates.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kalidor on September 27, 2016, 07:57:57 pm
It's now on ebay for $2.99
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Stop-Grinding-Relieve-Snoring-Night-Nose-breathing-apparatus-Air-purifier-/371590479579?var=&hash=item568484bedb:m:m6V6XwSnQluSiOCzhbAyF7Q (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Stop-Grinding-Relieve-Snoring-Night-Nose-breathing-apparatus-Air-purifier-/371590479579?var=&hash=item568484bedb:m:m6V6XwSnQluSiOCzhbAyF7Q)

Someone got scammed  :-DD
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rob77 on September 27, 2016, 09:08:51 pm
that device on ebay seems to be an air filter only, but the design is extremely similar to airing :)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on September 29, 2016, 03:57:59 am
Wow!  :o

Yeah those eBay devices look a lot like the Airing. Now what came first? Did Airing actually design it, or did they steal it from another company? Or did presumably a Chinese manufacturer copy the design to produce their own knock-off? Or was this a case of Airing talking to a Chinese fabricator and getting their design ripped out from under them?

One thing is for sure... the non-powered Airing or "Stop Stuffy Nose Breathing Snoring Apparatus"-thingy is like an internal version of the Breathe Right strips (https://www.breatheright.com/ (https://www.breatheright.com/)). When I've had a cold and congested nose, I've tried the Breathe-Right and it definitely helps improve the nasal passage opening. You can achieve the same effect by sticking 2 tubes into the end of your nostrils that are larger than your nostrils... which will expand them. You can even temporarily test it out by using your fingers to spread apart your nostrils.

So either method... externally (by sticking to your skin and trying to expand your nasal tissue) or internally (by forcing a larger diameter tube into your nares) will give you a noticeable improvement in the air flow.

What Airing has to do now is basically keep working on their "research" for a few years and when backers start complaining too highly they can ship them these things, pennies on the dollar, to shut them up. Then they can use this line....

"Sorry we couldn't get our microblowers to work, or FDA wouldn't clear our device for use. But as a consolation offer we will send you these Airing Stop Puffy Nose Breathing Snoring Appliances...".

Take a look at the pricing.... $50 for 15 Airings. Well, what's $2.99 (eBay item) x 15 = $45. Or $70 for 30 Airings... The prices per unit are awfully close to the anticipated price of $3 per Airing retail, and the eBay item is $2.99. Yup. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Cost to manufacture these is pennies and they can continue to market and sell these devices without any FDA approval and while they do help improve breathing for people with allergies/colds/congestion, it is FAR FAR AWAY as a SLEEP APNEA DEVICE.

So we've basically come back around FULL CIRCLE!  :-DD   Look back in this thread, I think we already mentioned that the original design and concept appeared to make sense as a type of Breathe-Right, except for the fact that they added on this garbage about microblowers and batteries and tried to claim it is a sleep apnea device. Meanwhile, they might have had a successful and fulfilled campaign already if all they did was sell you this Breathe-Right alternative.

 :palm:

I don't know.... They look pretty close in design:

(http://static1.squarespace.com/static/5529f0c3e4b01f43e14adb5b/t/5546cb33e4b0e11ffa8f0f35/1430750328280/)

LOOK! Someone selling those snoring appliances is using this photo on their site but with the "Airing" photoshopped away, and using the same graphics as the Airing (lady sleeping):

(https://images.vitamall.com/VM1002543676/TFS-2016-New-Snore-Go-Away-stuffy-nose-breathing-apparatus-air-purifier-anti-snore-solution-navy-01.jpg)

(http://thumbs.picclick.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/PtYAAOSw-KFXc28i/$_12.JPG)

(http://thumbs2.picclick.com/d/l400/pict/112116885729_/health-nose-breathing-apparatus-suitable-for-Stopping-Grinding.jpg)

LOOK! This image for an ad for "snore nose top snoring apnea guard" even uses Airing's lady sleeping photo on their packaging, and obviously shipping the knock-off design items.

(http://thumbs4.picclick.com/d/l400/pict/331957289323_/1PCS-NEW-Snore-Nose-Stop-Snoring-Apnea-Guard.jpg)

Based on some of the images I've been able to Google using image search for "stop snoring breathing apparatus", it definitely looks like someone is COPYING Airing and even using their photos from their website, and also looks like they scratched out the Airing name on some of them. You can see where the Airing model has a kind of metallic mesh on the top, while the simpler breathing apparatus has just a plastic/rubbery shell. In the "fake" advertisements for the simpler breathing apparatus it looks like they are using the Airing photos and just Photoshopping out the Airing name, but obviously the device they will ship you will NOT look like the Airing but their copy-cat design version (likely made of 2 pieces of plastic... a colored outer piece with the holes, and the white/transparent softer piece that fits into the nose).

 :palm:

Me thinks that some clever business-person in China saw the success of the Airing campaign and decided to just make a simpler nasal-nare-dilating appliance to help breathing.... Which works and is definitely worth the price.The design patents obviously not being an issue, not enforceable in China, and seeing through all this B.S. of microblowers/sleep apnea/battery, the Chinese company took it upon themselves to just get it made and shipped out. There are many other similar in-the-nose devices, just not ones that look like the Airing. So when they saw the design they figured lets just copy it and use it for our breathing helper and that's it.  :-+
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Khendrask on September 30, 2016, 11:49:52 am
that device on ebay seems to be an air filter only, but the design is extremely similar to airing :)

It isn't just extremely similar, it is identical... Right down to the picture of the hand holding one.  Marsh just stole that for his IGG campaign.

And ALL of the photos on the Airing page are stock photos, with the 'Device' edited in.  The woman, the man and woman sleeping, every last one of them is a stock photo, which is available online.

Here is his "Man and Woman Sleeping" one, direct from Shutterstock, (but without the magic device):
http://www.123rf.com/photo_3458939_couple-lying-in-bed-together-sleeping.html (http://www.123rf.com/photo_3458939_couple-lying-in-bed-together-sleeping.html)

Marsh is a typical IGG scammer, and laughing his butt to the bank thanks to the "InDemand" status of the campaign.  Technically, he is even delivering the goods... Allowing the contributors to print out "Vouchers" for when the 'Product' actually comes out... I hope the vouchers are soft so the contributors can use them in the bathroom.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Bud on October 05, 2016, 02:46:50 am
It's now on ebay for $2.99
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Stop-Grinding-Relieve-Snoring-Night-Nose-breathing-apparatus-Air-purifier-/371590479579?var=&hash=item568484bedb:m:m6V6XwSnQluSiOCzhbAyF7Q (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Stop-Grinding-Relieve-Snoring-Night-Nose-breathing-apparatus-Air-purifier-/371590479579?var=&hash=item568484bedb:m:m6V6XwSnQluSiOCzhbAyF7Q)

How does it stop grinding?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 05, 2016, 11:48:24 pm
High voltage diaphram you say? Well if we were to hack it by installing a bluetooth module inside to add external control to the transistors...

*WWWWWWUUUUUUUUB WUB-WUB WUB WUB-WUB*

"AAAAAAHHHH! :scared: My nose is full of dubstep!" >:D
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: timb on October 05, 2016, 11:50:22 pm
High voltage diaphram you say? Well if we were to hack it by installing a bluetooth module inside to add external control to the transistors...

*WWWWWWUUUUUUUUB WUB-WUB WUB WUB-WUB*

"AAAAAAHHHH! :scared: My nose is full of dubstep!" >:D

A high voltage diaphragm... So, does it just electrocute the sperm, or what?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 06, 2016, 01:57:34 am
A high voltage diaphragm... So, does it just electrocute the sperm, or what?

We aren't quite sure, but it looks like two metal sheets that get pushed and pulled by changing their electrostatic polarity. This is supposed to pump air (or so they claim).
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kalidor on October 19, 2016, 07:59:49 pm
Of course this is a scam they also "managing" the comments section, my comments are all gone.
At least they are so honest and say "no refund after 10 days".
What really pisses me off is that IGG allows them to use the InDemand feature, every day ~5 new backers.  :rant:
 
Here a video about Airing made by a CPAP expert:

https://youtu.be/oXo_7nT9qCU
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on December 01, 2016, 01:44:15 am
No surprises here, they have announced already a 1 year delay: http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2016/11/28/a-significant-step-forward (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2016/11/28/a-significant-step-forward)

Quick somebody save the page before further editing.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Cyberdragon on December 06, 2016, 05:51:33 am
I don't understand why he has connected a 3KV electrophoresis supply to the apparatus under the microscope. Some kind of micromachine that runs on such a high voltage is not very likely.

I don't get that either

Maybe it's actually an ozone generator...

Oh, you're choking from a breathing disorder? Well here's some ozone to make you feel better...
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: EEVblog on December 06, 2016, 07:36:33 am
No surprises here, they have announced already a 1 year delay: http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2016/11/28/a-significant-step-forward (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2016/11/28/a-significant-step-forward)
Quick somebody save the page before further editing.

(http://i.imgur.com/qhxvdt2.png)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on December 22, 2016, 11:09:06 pm
This topic has been dozing for a few years but I thought I'd chime in, the Airing looked interesting so I backed it on IGG a few years back.

I've been getting regular updates lately so it'll be interesting to see if they actually deliver.

If I get mine I'll send a few to Dave for tear down and analysis. :)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on December 22, 2016, 11:18:34 pm
This topic has been dozing for a few years but I thought I'd chime in, the Airing looked interesting so I backed it on IGG a few years back.

I've been getting regular updates lately so it'll be interesting to see if they actually deliver.

If I get mine I'll send a few to Dave for tear down and analysis. :)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on December 22, 2016, 11:52:54 pm
This topic has been dozing for a few years but I thought I'd chime in, the Airing looked interesting so I backed it on IGG a few years back.

I've been getting regular updates lately so it'll be interesting to see if they actually deliver.

If I get mine I'll send a few to Dave for tear down and analysis. :)
If you hear or get anything, we would be really interested, but this seems to be another project that is spending money like it doesn't matter, but without any statements at all to describe how they can achieve any useful results.

The concept of a 1-3kV electrostatic or piezoelectric pump in your nose and to have it work with all the humidity in your exhalations seems crazy. Also the battery capacity is not enough for continual pressure through the night, so it suggests that it is only useful for people who only need occasional help.

If they do actually make a pump, then it is likely they are trying a strategy that hasn't been used before - such as trying to just send a quick burst of pressure at the start of the breath to unblock the air passage and then relying on the air flow to keep the passage open. As well as this probably being noisy and uncomfortable, it will probably need several years of very expensive medical research to identify which conditions can be managed with the Airling, and then the device will need to be supplied under medical prescription.

The concept that they will be freely shipping in 2018 to anyone who wants to try it seems a bit ridiculous and dangerous. When you gave them the money, they didn't actually promise you anything - just a partial discount on the first years supply of Airlings if they ever ended up with a product. Otherwise, your money is letting them buy expensive equipment and play with it. They could at least detail what results they have achieved so far - if there are any results.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on December 23, 2016, 12:44:05 am
I think you've been misinformed, the IGG definitely had multiple pre order options, I spent about $90 Aud so I had a good supply to play with.

My perk is: Silver Founder + 30 Airings
Title: The Airing
Post by: djos on December 23, 2016, 02:12:07 am
Btw I'm sceptical just like most others here but I'm going to reserve judgment until I see the product or the company quietly vanish with my money.

Latest update from yesterday:

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161223/7e048c6a66b7e4b8809c8abb3d12824d.jpg)

And from 30th November 2016:

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161223/c59246f51542727950ceac71ddb2e518.jpg)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on December 23, 2016, 02:30:16 am
The Airling doesn't add any moisture, so that is another reason to think it must only switch on when there is a breathing event. A constant pressure apnae machine with no moisture can get very uncomfortable. 

Richard

The nasal passage is self moisturizing, that's why you are supposed to breath thru your nose under normal circumstances.

So in theory it doesn't matter that the Airing doesn't moisturize because it's not ramming air down the non-moisturizing throat like traditional cpap machines.

I think there are some very good ideas in the Airing design - if they can actually engineer it and make it useful is another story entirely.

Cheers Derek.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on December 23, 2016, 02:51:24 am
I think you've been misinformed, the IGG definitely had multiple pre order options, I spent about $90 Aud so I had a good supply to play with.

My perk is: Silver Founder + 30 Airings
From memory, what they offered was vouchers for 30 Airlings and so if they ever did release a product and they were marketing it rather then a bigger company, then you could get 30 Airlings for free. What you actually paid the money for was to fund the development of their product. That is where 100% of your money was committed to go.

A year needs 365 Airlings so for the first year, you are getting a 8.2% discount for the first year with the voucher offer. If a medical prescription is required, then you will need to get that first before you are even allowed to use any voucher.

By offering vouchers instead of Airlings, they only have to supply the vouchers and they have met the commitment. They do not have to deliver anything. If they did miraculously succeed in making a working pump that could deliver sufficient air last a night, then they would probably try and sell the idea to one of the industry multinational giants who could afford the $1 billion+ medical research costs and then sell it under their own brand names.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on December 23, 2016, 02:56:34 am
I think you've been misinformed, the IGG definitely had multiple pre order options, I spent about $90 Aud so I had a good supply to play with.

My perk is: Silver Founder + 30 Airings
From memory, what they offered was vouchers for 30 Airlings and so if they ever did release a product and they were marketing it rather then a bigger company, then you could get 30 Airlings for free. What you actually paid the money for was to fund the development of their product. That is where 100% of your money was committed to go.

A year needs 365 Airlings so for the first year, you are getting a 8.2% discount for the first year with the voucher offer. If a medical prescription is required, then you will need to get that first before you are even allowed to use any voucher.

By offering vouchers instead of Airlings, they only have to supply the vouchers and they have met the commitment. They do not have to deliver anything. If they did miraculously succeed in making a working pump that could deliver sufficient air last a night, then they would probably try and sell the idea to one of the industry multinational giants who could afford the $1 billion+ medical research costs and then sell it under their own brand names.

Ahh yes, that jogs the memory and you are correct. I do believe that the vouchers don't need to be used with a purchase of other airing units tho.

Regarding a prescription, iirc that only applies in the USA and shouldn't be an issue for units being shipped internationally.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on December 23, 2016, 03:15:43 am
Btw I'm sceptical just like most others here but I'm going to reserve judgment until I see the product or the company quietly vanish with my money.

Latest update from yesterday:

(http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161223/7e048c6a66b7e4b8809c8abb3d12824d.jpg)

I read this a few times and it did not actually say they developed the sensor chip that they showed. Sensor dies like this are available off the shelf

https://en.tdk.eu/inf/57/ds/c32_gauge.pdf (https://en.tdk.eu/inf/57/ds/c32_gauge.pdf)

and all they could actually be saying is they built a prototype sensor using one of these chips and it works! They say it uses MEMS technology like their pump that they haven't built yet, but they do not actually say they developed the MEMS technology for the sensor.

If that is all they are saying, then we could have told them that for free.

You might be just about to correct me - didn't they say
Quote
Therefore, we are using what we learn during the prototyping of the micro-blowers to fabricate our design of the micro-pressure sensor.

Yes they did, but you see to make a useful sensor with the chip I mentioned above, you have to mount it in an assembly to cause a pressure differential. The chip by itself is useless. So the fabrication they mentioned can be mounting the sensor die on a sheet with a hole in it just under the center of the chip. Once the chip is mounted so the two sides are separated, it becomes a differential pressure sensor.

I am not trying to be cynical here - I am just trying to read and make sense of the actual words that Airling have chosen to use. If they said that they had designed a silicon chip with an onboard MEMS sensor and had it manufactured at a IC foundry, I would have read a different meaning.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on December 23, 2016, 03:20:51 am
I completely agree with you, if it was their sensor they'd have prefixed their statement e.g. "We have prototyped". It's possible they took their requirements to a company that specialises in these types of small SMT sensors and had it built to their requirements.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kean on December 23, 2016, 04:32:21 am
Regarding a prescription, iirc that only applies in the USA and shouldn't be an issue for units being shipped internationally.

Good luck with that.  Assuming they ever have a product to ship, they've only stated that they "intend to make it available internationally" and "Subject to FDA clearance and doctor’s prescription in the US and local regulation abroad."

That doesn't mean they'll be shipping anything to you, but rather that they hope to have a various distributors who would apply for local approval - presumably through TGA in Australia.  You would still need to go through whatever local requirements are required (sleep study / prescription) to "purchase" the end product with your vouchers, and possibly go through a battle of getting those vouchers recognised.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on December 23, 2016, 04:35:05 am
Regarding a prescription, iirc that only applies in the USA and shouldn't be an issue for units being shipped internationally.

Good luck with that.  Assuming they ever have a product to ship, they've only stated that they "intend to make it available internationally" and "Subject to FDA clearance and doctor’s prescription in the US and local regulation abroad."

That doesn't mean they'll be shipping anything to you, but rather that they hope to have a various distributors who would apply for local approval - presumably through TGA in Australia.  You would still need to go through whatever local requirements are required (sleep study / prescription) to "purchase" the end product with your vouchers, and possibly go through a battle of getting those vouchers recognised.

That's all possible, I'm happy to see what eventuates, I don't need it for medical reasons, just curiosity. :)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on December 23, 2016, 04:58:59 am
Ahh yes, that jogs the memory and you are correct. I do believe that the vouchers don't need to be used with a purchase of other airing units tho.
The thing is they didn't offer actual Airings. They could have but they didn't.

They offered vouchers, that will allow you to get some free units if they ever manufacture a product. None of the money to cover this comes from your payment. They are saying that if they are making millions of these a year, they can afford to give away several thousand Airlings. Your "free" devices will be funded from future profits.

But lets get serious. If a fundraising campaign comes along and says "We have no experience at building micropumps, but support us and we will make a pump as good as the best pump on the market. We are not going to explain in any detail how we will do this - just trust us".

What odds would you give them - One in 10? One in a hundred? You are talking about people with no experience competing with big corporations with many years of actual manufacturing experience in micropumps.

Airling are saying "Without any experience, we will build a pump an order of magnitude better then any micropump on the market"

What odds now? One in a thousand? One in a miliion?

But that is only the start of the problem. They then have to achieve a true CPAP-replacement functionality using almost no power and it has to last the whole night. Where is the research? Every sleep disorder patient is slightly different. If you took a million sleep disorder patients, how many have conditions that the Airling could manage? One? Ten? A Hundred? No-one knows as Airling have not defined what their devices will actually do. The only thing we know for sure is that with a tiny battery, it cannot be pumping all night.

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on December 23, 2016, 05:02:51 am
All valid points my friend, the money I plunked down I can afford to lose on a curiosity punt.

I'm usually an optimist and happy to give ppl enough type to hang themselves.

I don't normally back these sort of things, but this one piqued my curiosity. :)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on March 03, 2017, 07:05:44 pm
Latest update from Airing, dated March 2nd, 2017:

Quote
Parts and Pieces Everywhere!

Now that we have had access to the laser micromachining system we told you about in December, we have a stream of micro-blower parts and pieces flowing into our lab! Our benches are teeming with them. IT FEELS GREAT!!

(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1488493180/oqidlkb26ob3mjqf02nj.jpg)

Our progress has started to accelerate, just like we knew it would, and our engineers and scientist are busier than ever.  We are working on more test fixtures to handle the testing of this increase in fabricated material. Stay tuned and look for more updates soon.

Again, we want you to know how much we appreciate your support. THANKS!!
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: snoopy on March 04, 2017, 12:58:45 am
The Airling doesn't add any moisture, so that is another reason to think it must only switch on when there is a breathing event. A constant pressure apnae machine with no moisture can get very uncomfortable. 

Richard

The nasal passage is self moisturizing, that's why you are supposed to breath thru your nose under normal circumstances.

So in theory it doesn't matter that the Airing doesn't moisturize because it's not ramming air down the non-moisturizing throat like traditional cpap machines.

I think there are some very good ideas in the Airing design - if they can actually engineer it and make it useful is another story entirely.

Cheers Derek.

Hate to rain on your parade but this thing was doomed from the start and you are just paying for these dudes indulgence in a fantasy product. CPAP relies on air volume rate which this thing can't possibly deliver. For example have you ever tried to blow up an air bed with one of those small electric compressor tire pumps ? I tried to do it once and after an hour it was barely inflated. Then got the el-cheapo 12V vacuum cleaner which also doubles as a blower and it did it in minutes !! Are then any examples of a prototype which actually produces a measured volume of air ? ie how many liters per minute etc ?

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on March 04, 2017, 01:21:32 am

Hate to rain on your parade but this thing was doomed from the start and you are just paying for these dudes indulgence in a fantasy product. CPAP relies on air volume rate which this thing can't possibly deliver. For example have you ever tried to blow up an air bed with one of those small electric compressor tire pumps ? I tried to do it once and after an hour it was barely inflated. Then got the el-cheapo 12V vacuum cleaner which also doubles as a blower and it did it in minutes !! Are then any examples of a prototype which actually produces a measured volume of air ? ie how many liters per minute etc ?

Im sceptical too but I'm also curious to see if they manage to produce a working product. They probably wont, but I had the spare money at the time and could afford to throw it away on a curiosity.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 05, 2017, 01:56:12 am
Some more updates from this crazy campaign. Amazingly they are still going at it:

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/6/26/the-airing-micro-cpap-device-major-components (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/6/26/the-airing-micro-cpap-device-major-components)

And here they are talking about their blowers... I kid you not they title it STAND BACK IT'S ABOUT TO BLOW!

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/6/19/stand-back-its-about-to-blow (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/6/19/stand-back-its-about-to-blow)

It has been 2 years and 1.8 million $ in this project... I wonder how much they've burned through already. I would love to get $1.8 million to set up a lab with no oversight to work on some project with no time limit except the speed at which I use the funds, and basically no liability if I turn up with nothing. That's a dream job! ... except that these micro blowers have a chance of snowball in hell of actually working well enough to treat sleep apnea. Airing will fold and Marsh will sell patents or actual micro blowers for some other applications. Thank you gullible IndieGogo backers for funding my startup and getting nothing in return while I stuff my portfolio!

So here is a photo posted on their FACEBOOK page dated October 13, 2016... roughly 1.5 years into the Airing project. Guess what the poster behind Marsh is about? It is showing his Power Cell and Power Chip Architecture that he patented when he was working at Encite LLC: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/8518594.html (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/8518594.html)

(https://scontent.fybz2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/14691396_1595386754098477_1999956181379500951_o.jpg?oh=0f18b4da6c03b25c730aef57b2354f3c&oe=59D804EB)

So why is this event and a fuzzy poster behind him being shown?

According to the Boston Patent Law Association website, the "Invented Here!" event (http://www.bpla.org/?page=52 (http://www.bpla.org/?page=52)) gives a list of all previous honorees:

https://bpla.site-ym.com/resource/resmgr/InventedHere/BPLA_Invented_Here_List_of_.xlsx (https://bpla.site-ym.com/resource/resmgr/InventedHere/BPLA_Invented_Here_List_of_.xlsx)

In 2012 (honoree #12),  Marsh shows up with 2 others on the Encite LLC team for patent 8172912  (http://"https://www.google.com/patents/US8172912")on "Self-Regulating Gas Generator and Method". Then in the 2014 tab he is listed again (honoree #4) with the same group, same company, same patent number! In 2016 we see Marsh's patent 8,518,594  (http://"https://www.google.com/patents/US8518594")on "Power Cell and Power Chip Architecture" also under Encite, LLC (filed March 2, 2007). Good on Marsh for being an awesome inventor... But what does this have to do with Airing? Does it prove that Marsh has a history of innovating and inventing stuff that gets to market and makes successful returns to investors? NOPE. The whole story here: http://www.potteranderson.com/delawarecase-185.html (http://www.potteranderson.com/delawarecase-185.html)

So far I see Marsh as a successful entrepreneur skilled at obtaining investment capital and pursuing his dreams of fabricating his inventions but which don't seem to pan out to commercially viable products. The fuel cells, the self-regulating gas generator, the micro-blowers. Could this be the same Stephen A. Marsh that brought us this: https://www.google.com/patents/US4875358 (https://www.google.com/patents/US4875358)

(https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/pages/US4875358-1.png)

... It's a bit tough putting it on after you've inflated and tested it, no?

All joking aside, I wish Airing success I just hope the campaign has been honest about their intent from the beginning....Not a make-work project to push out a bunch more patents and company shell-games to drum up capital from venture capitalists (and now poor unsuspecting IndieGoGo users).
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: snoopy on July 05, 2017, 08:56:58 am
Who are the suckers that put money into this crazy idea ? Say goodbye to your money :(

Like P.T.Barnum said "There is a sucker born every minute".
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on July 05, 2017, 09:39:57 am
Who are the suckers that put money into this crazy idea ? Say goodbye to your money :(

Like P.T.Barnum said "There is a sucker born every minute".

Lol, I did but only out of engineering curiosity and it was less than $100 or one fun night out on the turps.  8)

PS, they have more chance of delivering a working product than uBeam imo.  :-DD
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: snoopy on July 05, 2017, 10:49:32 am
Who are the suckers that put money into this crazy idea ? Say goodbye to your money :(

Like P.T.Barnum said "There is a sucker born every minute".

Lol, I did but only out of engineering curiosity and it was less than $100 or one fun night out on the turps.  8)

PS, they have more chance of delivering a working product than uBeam imo.  :-DD

The hot air coming out of their mouths would be stronger than what this thing can do :D LOL
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on July 05, 2017, 11:08:31 am
The hot air coming out of their mouths would be stronger than what this thing can do :D LOL

True, the BS is strong with them ... that said I dont think what they are trying to do is impossible, just difficult (and pointless).
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on July 05, 2017, 12:53:43 pm
My criticism throughout this thread is directed more to the funding method and preying on the medically-vulnerable than of the Airing development itself.

I have nothing against what Marsh and his team is doing. We need these kinds of tech innovators and startups and visionaries like Marsh to lead the cause. As crazy as their idea sounds, and even if they don't ever produce a functioning Airing, they may produce some tech along the way which is useful. If venture capitalists and investors with too much money want to throw their cash at Marsh and see what sticks, I am all for that! But in the case of investors, they are in a legally-binding framework with checks and balances, repercussions and liabilities if things go sour. And when things go well, the investors stand to profit from it.

On the other hand.... My biggest criticism is NOT about Airing or Marsh. It is about their use of a crowd-funding platform to target a medically-vulnerable population that is desperate enough for a different therapy that you may claim they are not able to make a rational decision. Now, you can say that people are free to give their money to anything and that is it. But here we have Marsh circumventing the usual VC/bank/investor style of fund-raising and having no legal obligations to anyone, and even if he is successful, pocketing all of the benefits from whatever patents are produced and sold to competitors or patent troll firms. He can spend money however he chooses, and take as long as he wants.

Again, Marsh is brilliant by going the crowd-funding route and he may have had no choice because of his legal tangle with Encite LLC and previous corps. The media marketing campaign, independent press/bloggers that only want to increase page views and ad clicks, and IndieGoGo site itself will fluff up an idea beyond any realistic expectations and the public masses fall prey to it. Yes you can say "a sucker is born every minute" and "a fool and his money are soon parted"... People need to do their research before clicking to fund a campaign. But with more and more of these crowd-funding ventures ending up in the toilet, is this a healthy way to promote the platform? Is this a healthy way to compensate crowd-funders? I think eventually people will wise-up to this, and sadly it will affect all of the honest crowd-funding projects out there negatively which is why I want to see better controls so it doesn't spoil it for the rest of us.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: mtdoc on July 05, 2017, 06:04:59 pm
True, the BS is strong with them ... that said I dont think what they are trying to do is impossible, just difficult (and pointless).

Actually, I'm afraid that doing what they propose, no matter how good the microblower or how good the battery, is impossible. The reasons why were discussed earlier in this thread. But it may be that they just don't understand the mechanics and physiology of obstructive sleep apnea well enough to realize that.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on July 05, 2017, 08:34:11 pm
True, the BS is strong with them ... that said I dont think what they are trying to do is impossible, just difficult (and pointless).

Actually, I'm afraid that doing what they propose, no matter how good the microblower or how good the battery, is impossible. The reasons why were discussed earlier in this thread. But it may be that they just don't understand the mechanics and physiology of obstructive sleep apnea well enough to realize that.

You may well be correct, I backed the campaign for the same reason others here backed batteriser, curiosity.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: m98 on July 05, 2017, 10:55:59 pm
They want to use zinc air hearing-aid batteries as the energy source: http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/6/26/the-airing-micro-cpap-device-major-components (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/6/26/the-airing-micro-cpap-device-major-components)
 :-DD
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: snoopy on July 06, 2017, 10:30:30 am
They want to use zinc air hearing-aid batteries as the energy source: http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/6/26/the-airing-micro-cpap-device-major-components (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/6/26/the-airing-micro-cpap-device-major-components)
 :-DD

This is next level bullshit if I ever saw it !! They are confusing static pressure with dynamic pressure. Sure they can achieve the right static pressure with a pressure sensor and servo feedback loop to blow up the air passage but as soon as the air starts moving in and out as the person breaths can they maintain this pressure ? With this toy I very much doubt it !! Somehow their understanding of the problem is lacking somewhat.

Quote
Pressure Sensor- As we have described in our previous blog, Airing’s micro-CPAP device wouldn’t work without a micro pressure sensor. The micro pressure sensor has two very important functions. First, it is an integral part of the feedback loop that ensures that the micro-blowers are delivering the pressure needed to maintain the treatment level prescribed by your physician. Second, the pressure sensor collects data about your use of the device, which can be used to prove the compliance for insurance reimbursement purposes.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Mukrakiish on July 06, 2017, 09:39:31 pm
Speaking as someone who has done warranty repair on every major brand of CPAP on the market, Eddy has the technical end of things well covered. I’ve repaired/tested/calibrated thousands of CPAP’s and there is not a single piece of this thing that makes sense or can produce the needed pressure required. There is SO much more involved than a tiny little feedback loop sensor and “micro turbines” in this little toy. If anyone was able to create something worthwhile, at this size, one of the “big boys” (Respironics, Resmed, etc) would have long figured it out. Each generation they produce is usually more compact and depending on the manufacturer, better reliability or more bells and whistles. Considering Respironics in particular has Phillips backing them, it’s not lack of money or engineering. If it was possible, it would have already been done. The CPAP industry is cut-throat in who gets the biggest market share.

There’s going to be a lot of unhappy sleepless people to follow this train-wreck.  :palm:
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on July 07, 2017, 03:54:43 am
There is SO much more involved than a tiny little feedback loop sensor and “micro turbines” in this little toy. If anyone was able to create something worthwhile, at this size, one of the “big boys” (Respironics, Resmed, etc) would have long figured it out.
Not necessarily. Airling are talking about a pump composed of thousands of electrostatic micropumps. Also Airling are talking about a device that has to only work for about 8 hours and then it is discarded, and that can be sold in qualities of hundreds per patient per year. I doubt that the traditional companies have ever investigated the concepts. Normal CPAP machines are designed to run almost silently for 8 hours+ a night for many years with a very high reliability. The "big boys" also love the market in which they can sell a mask ( a few bits of injected molded plastic with a bit of silicone rubber) for one or two hundred dollars. They probably have a 1000% markup on the CPAP pumps prices. They have an extremely profitable business model and I doubt they want to disrupt it.

I just suspect this is like uBeam in that they are developing technology that can be useful, but not in the promoted usage. The difference with Airling is that the fund-raising didn't promise much - it was basically raising money to pay for research. As long as they use the money to do research, they have met their promise. The perks offered to contributors amounted to almost nothing - a voucher which would save a small portion of the first years bill, if the product even got to market.

Airling are saying the micropump would pump thousands of times a second. That sounds like an audio frequency. So the thing will be whistling very loudly all night, unless they have multiple phased drivers. It all sounds useless for a device that is means to be manufactured at about $1 a device. However if they can develop a very cheap micropump array, it may have a big market in other areas.

I doubt it will be a "train-wreck" simply because I don't believe the Airling branded CPAP device will ever get near to market. In the completely miraculous situation where they did succeed with a plausible cheap concept that actually worked, I am certain they would sell the design to a medical giant as getting it approved for market would cost a fortune. Airling are probably under no obligation to ensure a buyer passed on the perks to the contributors.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: snoopy on July 08, 2017, 01:16:34 pm
There is SO much more involved than a tiny little feedback loop sensor and “micro turbines” in this little toy. If anyone was able to create something worthwhile, at this size, one of the “big boys” (Respironics, Resmed, etc) would have long figured it out.
Not necessarily. Airling are talking about a pump composed of thousands of electrostatic micropumps. Also Airling are talking about a device that has to only work for about 8 hours and then it is discarded, and that can be sold in qualities of hundreds per patient per year. I doubt that the traditional companies have ever investigated the concepts. Normal CPAP machines are designed to run almost silently for 8 hours+ a night for many years with a very high reliability. The "big boys" also love the market in which they can sell a mask ( a few bits of injected molded plastic with a bit of silicone rubber) for one or two hundred dollars. They probably have a 1000% markup on the CPAP pumps prices. They have an extremely profitable business model and I doubt they want to disrupt it.

I just suspect this is like uBeam in that they are developing technology that can be useful, but not in the promoted usage. The difference with Airling is that the fund-raising didn't promise much - it was basically raising money to pay for research. As long as they use the money to do research, they have met their promise. The perks offered to contributors amounted to almost nothing - a voucher which would save a small portion of the first years bill, if the product even got to market.

Airling are saying the micropump would pump thousands of times a second. That sounds like an audio frequency. So the thing will be whistling very loudly all night, unless they have multiple phased drivers. It all sounds useless for a device that is means to be manufactured at about $1 a device. However if they can develop a very cheap micropump array, it may have a big market in other areas.

I doubt it will be a "train-wreck" simply because I don't believe the Airling branded CPAP device will ever get near to market. In the completely miraculous situation where they did succeed with a plausible cheap concept that actually worked, I am certain they would sell the design to a medical giant as getting it approved for market would cost a fortune. Airling are probably under no obligation to ensure a buyer passed on the perks to the contributors.

That sounds like the description of a scam where someone takes money under false pretenses.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on July 09, 2017, 12:09:05 am
That sounds like the description of a scam where someone takes money under false pretenses.
It seems to be a modern trend. Be realistic and it is very hard to raise money. Promise something perfect and flawless and you are showered in money. So never let the engineers talk to the public.

It is sad because when a real engineer is running a business, you often get the best long term results.

Sydney in Australia is still benefiting today from the great engineering work of James Bradfield between 1915 and 1933. Can't think of very much brilliant engineering work here in the last 30 years.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Richard Crowley on July 09, 2017, 07:14:34 am
Sydney in Australia is still benefiting today from the great engineering work of James Bradfield between 1915 and 1933. Can't think of very much brilliant engineering work here in the last 30 years.

From my perspective in audio and video engineering here in the USA, I can say that two Aussie companies have made quite a name for themselves in the international market.  Røde which makes microphones (and associated accessories), and BlackMagic Design which makes a wide variety of very popular digital video gear.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: amspire on July 09, 2017, 07:39:13 am
Sydney in Australia is still benefiting today from the great engineering work of James Bradfield between 1915 and 1933. Can't think of very much brilliant engineering work here in the last 30 years.

From my perspective in audio and video engineering here in the USA, I can say that two Aussie companies have made quite a name for themselves in the international market.  Røde which makes microphones (and associated accessories), and BlackMagic Design which makes a wide variety of very popular digital video gear.
I was really referring to public infrastructure engineering in Sydney.

There has been a few significant long term technological developments from Australia. The CSIRO (the Australian government research organisation) did a pretty good job solving one of the biggest problems in development of WiFi. Then the CSIRO was crippled by the government. Probably couldn't happen today.

There were also things like the invention of the airplane and the rotary engine used to power all the early powered planes. Must have been a great help to the Wright Brothers a decade later.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on October 27, 2017, 01:43:18 am
UPDATE!

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/10/26/technical-update (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/10/26/technical-update)

At the end of the above page they say....

Quote
Since we outlined the challenge we are facing, I think it’s important to take stock of what we have accomplished:

  • Low cost integrated micro pressure sensor: prototyped and working
  • Nose buds that stay in place under high pressure: prototyped and working
  • Ergonomic outer plastic housing: prototyped and working
  • Micro-blower pump bodies: prototyped and working
  • Micro-blower valves operating thousands of times per second: prototyped and under test

They forgot to mention...
   :-DD

"REVISED" Timeline (ok):

(https://c1.iggcdn.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/fl_progressive:semi,q_auto,f_auto,c_limit,w_695/v1509031579/ikfy0hztyoiugnh7njm7.png)

So far so good.... things should start getting interesting next year as some deadlines approach. This "update" is sure to be the first of many more entries designed to keep backers off the scammers back and classic delay tactic. War of attrition except that one side has almost $2 million while the other has nothing but some paper vouchers for vapor-ware.
[/list]
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: snoopy on October 29, 2017, 12:13:36 am
Don't hold your breath on ever seeing this working ;)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Richard Crowley on October 29, 2017, 01:21:23 am
It seems unlikely that anyone in this forum actually expects to see anything remotely resembling this to be demonstrated as working.  We are incredulous at the chutzpah of the con-men and the gullibility of the victims.

Even if they can, by some miracle, get the micro-blowers working, there is no way they can embed enough power internally to operate them for 8 hours against that pneumatic load.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on October 29, 2017, 01:42:57 am
It seems unlikely that anyone in this forum actually expects to see anything remotely resembling this to be demonstrated as working.  We are incredulous at the chutzpah of the con-men and the gullibility of the victims.

Even if they can, by some miracle, get the micro-blowers working, there is no way they can embed enough power internally to operate them for 8 hours against that pneumatic load.

Personally I think the concept is plausible and Im curious to see if they ever deliver a working product - they probably wont, but at least their concept doesn't ignore known physics like the uBeam whackos.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Richard Crowley on October 29, 2017, 02:00:56 am
...at least their concept doesn't ignore known physics like the uBeam whackos.
They ignore physics every bit as much as the uBeam whackos.
Even if they get those micro-blowers working, they are off by at least 2 or 3 orders of magnide for what a CPAP device is required to do.  Both in terms of volume as well as pressure.  It is hard to imagine how these presumably smart people can be so wildly off the mark.  Exactly the same willful ignorance of basic physics as the uBeam gang of clowns.   :palm:

And what if they CAN get the micro-blowers working at sufficient pressure and volume, how much power will it take to operate them?  Do you see any provision for battery power sufficient to do that for 8 hours?  I don't.  Did I miss something here?

I AM willing to believe that IF they will get the micro-blowers working, they will likely find a few real-world applications where small size is valuable, but high volume and high pressure are not required, and where there is no limit on power.  But a self-contained, internally-powered, nose-mounted CPAP machine?  Not in our lifetimes.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on October 29, 2017, 03:45:52 am
...at least their concept doesn't ignore known physics like the uBeam whackos.
They ignore physics every bit as much as the uBeam whackos.
Even if they get those micro-blowers working, they are off by at least 2 or 3 orders of magnide for what a CPAP device is required to do.  Both in terms of volume as well as pressure.  It is hard to imagine how these presumably smart people can be so wildly off the mark.  Exactly the same willful ignorance of basic physics as the uBeam gang of clowns.   :palm:

And what if they CAN get the micro-blowers working at sufficient pressure and volume, how much power will it take to operate them?  Do you see any provision for battery power sufficient to do that for 8 hours?  I don't.  Did I miss something here?

I AM willing to believe that IF they will get the micro-blowers working, they will likely find a few real-world applications where small size is valuable, but high volume and high pressure are not required, and where there is no limit on power.  But a self-contained, internally-powered, nose-mounted CPAP machine?  Not in our lifetimes.

Yeah I agree there are major issues they need to solve - as you point out the battery issue seems to be the biggest one and for sure the blower strength issue is the other. They might surprise us and the blowers work great ... for an hour using a couple of button lithium cells.  :palm:

Anyway, I'm happy to watch them and see what they produce ... or dont.  :-+
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on October 29, 2017, 08:04:37 pm
Anyway, I'm happy to watch them and see what they produce ... or dont.  :-+

Me too... But as predicted from the start, this is one of those classic schemes where the people who orchestrated this startup (Stephen Marsh and his team) carefully crafted this campaign to provide exactly what they promised (vouchers) in exchange for investment capital for working on the technology R&D and the public made a leap of faith which was their own downfall... but obviously helped along by a healthy dose of misleading optimism on the actual potential of a final product being delivered. Marsh played this beautifully and the public was fleeced in style.

A look into the history of these guys shows a number of other failed ventures and when you start having issues with the bank and investment capitalists, crowdfunding becomes a nice way to get free money without any risks or obligations to pay anything back!
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: EEVblog on October 29, 2017, 08:40:24 pm
Me too... But as predicted from the start, this is one of those classic schemes where the people who orchestrated this startup (Stephen Marsh and his team) carefully crafted this campaign to provide exactly what they promised (vouchers) in exchange for investment capital for working on the technology R&D and the public made a leap of faith which was their own downfall... but obviously helped along by a healthy dose of misleading optimism on the actual potential of a final product being delivered. Marsh played this beautifully and the public was fleeced in style.
A look into the history of these guys shows a number of other failed ventures and when you start having issues with the bank and investment capitalists, crowdfunding becomes a nice way to get free money without any risks or obligations to pay anything back!

It's a great lifestyle. Just keep getting gullible people to fund your ventures until you find one that you crack it rich on. Each Kickstarter can last for several years of full time funding, and no legal onus on you to actually deliver anything.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Cyberdragon on October 29, 2017, 08:52:59 pm
I suspect they will produce something that makes tiny puffs of air and that's it. Realizing they have no chance in hell of getting certified, they will either lie and and say they got it or make up some BS excuse and pseudo-sad announcement as to why it didn't make it. Then they will turn right around and try to sell it illegally from China as a quack medical device.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on October 29, 2017, 10:46:52 pm
There is something more fishy going on me thinks...

For one, there are a plethora of "Airing" style nose pieces now being marketed on eBay. Are the Chinese simply jumping on the bandwagon seeing how many people are gullible and with the market "tested" in a way, taking advantage of the opportunity to fill a certain niche? Type in "Airing" and you will find them everywhere... some look alike, some don't look anything like the Airing, but all offer a nasal dilator functionality which I suspect would still be helpful (like the BreatheRight). They also claim some dubious patent # 201530543377.7 which shows no patent on Google, just brings up more of these devices under a variety of names.

Also, if you take apart some existing masks, like the ResMed Nasal Pillow, you will find an Airing style nose-piece inside. One has to wonder even if the design/shape of their nasal insert piece was really something new or just stolen from existing masks. Also someone explain to me this SleepRite(tm) product:

https://www.sleepritesnoring.org/collections/lux-mobile-accessories (https://www.sleepritesnoring.org/collections/lux-mobile-accessories)
https://www.sleepritesnoring.org/collections/lux-mobile-accessories/products/sleep-1 (https://www.sleepritesnoring.org/collections/lux-mobile-accessories/products/sleep-1)

Notice also the different renderings of the nasal inserts... either "ribbed or finned" or "smooth" as in the following:

SMOOTH:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CD7ZcOaWMAAXZS9.jpg)

VERSUS

RIBBED/FINNED:
(http://www.niftyreads.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/yfpkiepeaerkbqag0xnk.jpg)

And the resemblance of the former to this (Swift FX Nasal Pillow Replacement) (albeit without the "wings" which attach to a head strap):

(https://www.respshop.com/images/resmed-swift-fx-nasal-pillow-61522.jpg)
https://www.respshop.com/pillows-nasal-pillow-cpap-mask/swift-fx-replacement-p-151.html (https://www.respshop.com/pillows-nasal-pillow-cpap-mask/swift-fx-replacement-p-151.html)

Obviously the human nose has a certain variation in shape but most of us will have a similar nose. I wonder how well these things will even fit given that when you get EARBUD headphones or the BlueTooth earpieces these days they give you a few different rubber options for different sized ear canals so you get a tight fit. Wouldn't you expect noses to have different shapes for the nostril openings, the spacing and the size of the openings? How would anyone expect a one-size-fits-all approach to work? Yet another obvious red flag.

Still, when the campaign ends and users are knocking down Stephen Marsh's door demanding they deliver, I wonder if they will fulfill the orders by sending people some of these cheap eBay nosepieces and tell them that's as far as they got with their prototyping, or deliver anything at all.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on November 05, 2017, 01:19:39 am
Wow!  :palm:

Email from Airing today:

Quote

Reminder - An amazing opportunity to invest at an early stage!

 
Developing the world's first hoseless, maskless, cordless micro-CPAP device to treat sleep apnea.
 
Hello Airing Enthusiast,
 
We recognize that you may have a very busy schedule. We are sending you this email to remind you about the equity crowdfunding campaign that we launched on Tuesday.
 
Glad you asked! So far, it's been great. We have already raised 60% of our minimum goal in less than 48hrs.
 
What will we do with this money?
 
In order  to maintain our momentum and provide additional financing flexibility, we have decided to raise $1 million on Wefunder. We are in discussions with several potential strategic partners who have expressed interest in providing financing once we have a working proof of concept prototype of our micro-blowers. The money we raise will be used for the following purposes: 
Produce a working prototype of the micro-blower technology.
Demonstrate the micro-blowers blowing the required amount of air.
Combine the various components into a testable prototype and conduct preliminary testing and validation of the efficacy of the device (using external battery and electronics).
To pursue intellectual property protection of all facets of the technology.
Develop reference designs for battery and electronics to be used in the device. 
Maintain and promote the Airing brand.
 
We hope this opportunity interests you. We have answered many more questions on Wefunder. Check it out.
 
Please note that as with any startup, an investment in Airing involves significant risks, which are described in the related documents on Wefunder. But if we are successful in our effort to bring this important technology to millions of sleep apnea sufferers, it could be a source of both pride and profit.
 
Best,
 
Stephen Marsh
President and Inventor of Airing
 
 

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on November 05, 2017, 01:30:20 am
And here it is:

 https://wefunder.com/airing (https://wefunder.com/airing)

I have no more faith in this than conventional crowdfunding but if these "investors" at least have more legal standing it would be a slightly better way to get involved. At least if the company gets sold or scraps are left to sell off after bankruptcy they would get dibs.

Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Mr. Scram on November 05, 2017, 01:37:37 am
Wait, they raised 2 million and now want another million?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Richard Crowley on November 05, 2017, 04:57:14 am
Wait, they raised 2 million and now want another million?
It takes an infinite amount of money to make something impossible work.
The financial equivalent of division by zero.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on November 05, 2017, 09:16:28 pm
A few years ago we already got wind of the kind of money needed and how this entire thing developed. It was all in an audio interview which is boring as heck to listen to but insightful. Perhaps someone should find or make a transcript of it. It is still here in case you want to hear it... Maybe someone can also download it in case it disappears from the web.


https://soundcloud.com/devicetalks/the-story-behind-airing-one-of-medtechs-most-successful-crowd-funding-campaign (https://soundcloud.com/devicetalks/the-story-behind-airing-one-of-medtechs-most-successful-crowd-funding-campaign)


And I quote from an earlier posting from this thread (regarding the above interview):

Quote
From his audio interview, near the beginning he says he developed the Airing as a consequence of trying to come up with better airflow for his Fuel Cell Power Chip....which was being developed when he was under the V.C. funding umbrella of now-defunct technology startup Integrated Fuel Cell Technologies, Inc. and Encite LLC. He also says he has a non-compliant brother (doesn't wear CPAP machine although he has Sleep Apnea).


And with respect to the amount of money needed...

Quote
At about 40 minutes the interviewer asks about the ADDITIONAL monies that needed to be raised over and above the IndieGogo funds, since Marsh even admitted to needing close to $8,000,000 to build it. So Marsh reminds people about InDemand on IGG and to encourage more funding. He denies having raised other private money, except from friends and family. I guess he doesn't want to deal with the nuisance of accountability from a V.C. firm with all their lawyers and stuff.


I also remember somewhere earlier in this now 9 page thread that Marsh apparently needed close to $13,000,000 or so to get the company going, and it was disclosed somewhere on the main campaign website at some time. Not sure whether it was before, during or well after the campaign closed. But he and everyone else around him knew very well that the IndieGoGo campaign was *NOT* going to be enough to raise the capital they needed, even if by some miracle things were actually working on schedule.

Ultimately, if Marsh does manage to succeed in building ANYTHING it may be some niche market electrostatic-based pump or airflow device and maybe some small solid-state pressure sensor. I very much doubt anything powerful enough to be used for Sleep Apnea could be developed but let's see what they come up with.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rs20 on November 06, 2017, 12:04:49 am
Ultimately, if Marsh does manage to succeed in building ANYTHING it may be some niche market electrostatic-based pump or airflow device and maybe some small solid-state pressure sensor. I very much doubt anything powerful enough to be used for Sleep Apnea could be developed but let's see what they come up with.

Just imagine if he did manage to produce a small pump that was useful for hobbyist purposes, even if it's too weak to treat sleep apnea (or under the 200% total system efficiency required for it to treat sleep apnea using the batteries they said they would use). It'd be a pretty annoying moral problem if you wanted to buy one of those for a project; knowing that they were funded by the desperate pleas of sleep apnea sufferers.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on November 06, 2017, 03:11:13 am
It'd be a pretty annoying moral problem if you wanted to buy one of those for a project; knowing that they were funded by the desperate pleas of sleep apnea sufferers.

Not a problem I'll have, I helped fund it precisely because I wanted to play with the result (assuming there is one).  8)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: snoopy on November 13, 2017, 12:13:57 am
...at least their concept doesn't ignore known physics like the uBeam whackos.
They ignore physics every bit as much as the uBeam whackos.
Even if they get those micro-blowers working, they are off by at least 2 or 3 orders of magnide for what a CPAP device is required to do.  Both in terms of volume as well as pressure.  It is hard to imagine how these presumably smart people can be so wildly off the mark.  Exactly the same willful ignorance of basic physics as the uBeam gang of clowns.   :palm:

And what if they CAN get the micro-blowers working at sufficient pressure and volume, how much power will it take to operate them?  Do you see any provision for battery power sufficient to do that for 8 hours?  I don't.  Did I miss something here?

I AM willing to believe that IF they will get the micro-blowers working, they will likely find a few real-world applications where small size is valuable, but high volume and high pressure are not required, and where there is no limit on power.  But a self-contained, internally-powered, nose-mounted CPAP machine?  Not in our lifetimes.

The airing could generate the pressure needed but not the volume of air. As soon as you inhale the pressure will drop dramatically. It's akin to blowing up an air mattress with a small tire compressor which I did once. Spent hours and only half inflated. Then got out the vacuum cleaner with blower and did it in a matter of minutes ! It's just basic physics which should have nailed this project on the head right from the start !

The Airing is a case of Next Level Bullshit at its best and like PT Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute ;)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on November 13, 2017, 02:29:47 am
The airing could generate the pressure needed but not the volume of air. As soon as you inhale the pressure will drop dramatically.

Good observation. Yes it may be that they could get a static pressure generated against a small closed air chamber up to a fairly high level. However, the larger the volume of air being compressed the less pressure there will be in the system because the overall ratio of the small pump volume to the much larger reservoir they are trying to apply the pressure to will be very low. Add to that the amount of air that needs to be moved in a short period of time and you have much less effect.

Mind you, the problem is not the lung capacity... it's obstruction usually from flaccid palatal and tongue tissues which "fall back" on the airway and get in the way. You only need to pressurize the nasal/oral/pharyngeal spaces just enough to lift away the obstructing tissues, but like you said earlier the minute the flap opens and the person can breathe in, the pressure is GONE... Escaped down into the much larger lung volume. So you have to continuously pressurize (aka the C in CPAP) the nasal-oral-pharyngeal spaces so that they are higher pressure than surrounding atmospheric (outside the body) and lung pressures, to always make sure any obstructive tissues are unable to close on themselves.

Airing may come up with some interesting technologies along the way, but I think the marketing ploy to making a CPAP was and still is mainly a rouse to garner public crowd-funding. Rather than trying to get money for making micro-pumps to help with fuel cells (which was actually how they started in an earlier venture), they figured out that if they "re-package" the problem as some medical breakthrough device they could still work on their micro-pumps but pretend to be solving some practical every-day problem for Sleep Apnea suffers, unfortunately preying on the hopes and dreams of folks who may be easier to take advantage of in their medical state.

I don't blame Airing... They are simply taking advantage of a platform that we as a society have much too easily empowered and for which people are far too easily ensnared to give away their money. As this industry matures and more and more people are burned we will hopefully see more backlash, more regulation and possibly legal situations which ensure real criminals are actually punished, and people understand better the REAL risks involved.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: tggzzz on November 13, 2017, 08:29:22 am
I don't blame Airing... They are simply taking advantage of a platform that we as a society have much too easily empowered and for which people are far too easily ensnared to give away their money.

The same could be said for tax avoiders, religious zealots, political zealots and many other people/companies.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on November 17, 2017, 01:27:28 pm
They are at it again with a new post explaining to folks why they went the crowd-funding route, and also mentioning (just in case anyone missed it) that it is not true anyways because they are also having investor funding. Here's their latest blog posting... and also included in the attached as PDF just in case the blog is modified or deleted. I'm not sure what the point to all of this is, except to give the illusion of something happening when the technology itself has had little to no progress and to appease growing dissent from their backers:

Quote
Why Crowdfunding? 
NOVEMBER 16, 2017

We often get questions about why we chose to raise money to develop Airing on a crowdfunding platform, and particularly why Indiegogo. People have suggested that we go on Shark Tank. Others wonder why we didn’t use venture capitalists or banks.

Crowdfunding gives Airing direct access to the very people who want to see this concept become a product. Unlike more traditional funding sources, the “crowd” reacts very quickly and passionately. Many people recognize that while a contribution to a campaign is a big risk, it’s one they are willing to make because when the product becomes a reality it will really be beneficial to them. Their contribution is a sort of bet—huge upside potential but not so much money that they could not afford to lose it.

Another benefit of crowdfunding is market validation of a product concept. With over 20,000 contributors, we can check that box. Our donors come from over 120 countries—literally from every corner of the globe!

And the publicity we have gotten on through this campaign has attracted the attention of many world-class companies—suppliers, manufacturers, regulatory experts, and distributors. We are well supported in our work to bring Airing to market.

Why Indiegogo?

When we were considering a rewards-based crowdfunding campaign we did our research. Several companies were offering crowdfunding platforms but Indiegogo and Kickstarter were the clear leaders in this emerging segment. They had the name recognition, the most followers, and generally the best reputation all around. We eliminated Kickstarter because at that time, they did not allow companies that were raising funds for medical devices to use their platform whereas Indiegogo did not have that restriction. (Since Airing’s launch on Indiegogo, Kickstarter has removed this restriction.)

Another reason we chose Indiegogo is because they reached out to us very early on. They thoroughly vetted us before we were permitted to launch, and conducted another review of our campaign and progress in the second year of our campaign. Indiegogo has offered us great support. The team that they put together to support us is professional, very helpful, readily accessible, and quick to respond. It’s been a great platform for us.

Click here to learn more about our Indiegogo.com campaign: Indiegogo.com

Why Wefunder?

When we launched our crowdfunding campaign on Indiegogo rewards-based crowdfunding was the only option available. In the past year, however, this has changed. New provisions, known as Regulation Crowdfunding (Title III) have been adopted to allow smaller investors to buy shares in private companies on the same basis that had previously been limited to accredited high net worth investors.

In response to this development, new platforms have emerged that provide small investors the opportunity to buy shares in startup ventures alongside the more traditional larger players. Since many people have asked about the possibility of making an equity investment in Airing we decided to explore this option. The most successful, and most experienced, of these platforms, is Wefunder.com. After extensive discussions with the Wefunder team, we concluded this would be a good way for us to complement other sources of financing for the continuing development of our breakthrough micro-CPAP device.

Please take a look at our Wefunder.com campaign.



You can read between the lines above and interpret it very differently. Why IndieGogo and not Kickstarter? Because they had no working prototype and I believe KS requires that. Maybe the medical devices thing could also be true. Also because IndieGogo has lower stringency and allows for funding even if target is not met, and InDemand options. We all know IGG has lower standards than KS, and companies that were booted off KS (Skarp Laser Razor for example) moved to IGG because of that. As far as WeFunder, they needed more money and so this platform gives a way to obtain smaller chunks of money from "investors"... Small enough that they can be kept sufficiently "arms-length" distance away that that they have no power as shareholders to actually get too much involvement in the corporate workings of the company.  Also, when Airing finally folds and/or is sold off in chunks, the company is more shielded from legal action from these types of "investors" (as opposed to larger interest more hands-on type capital investors). Nevertheless, "regulation crowd-funding" seems to offer at least some protection for "investors". I am not sure of all the legal and financial details, perhaps someone who has more knowledge can chime in here.... but here is a link to the regulatory compliance page of the SEC that discusses the maximum amounts and periods that are allowed for such "investors" to raise and it may also discuss what happens when a bankruptcy is issued or a share buyback or other stuff happens:

https://www.sec.gov/info/smallbus/secg/rccomplianceguide-051316.htm (https://www.sec.gov/info/smallbus/secg/rccomplianceguide-051316.htm)

Title: Re: The Airing - Getting Refund
Post by: 315 on November 18, 2017, 08:33:30 pm
Hello,

I supported the Aring on Indiegogo some time ago (a year or so).
Now I think that wasn't a good idea.

So I tried to get a refund from Airing directly, as Indiegogo says after they transferred the momey to Airing, they are not responsible.
I got this answer:

Quote
Dear *,

Thank you for your message. Refunds to your credit card can only be processed by Indiegogo. We cannot process a refund to your credit card because we have no access to that information. It is protected by Indiegogo, as it should be.  We adhere to Indiegogo's Refund policy.

Please be advised that contributions to Airing are not refundable beyond the policy stated (within 10 days of contribution). After this period, Indiegogo takes out their fees, the remaining funds are transferred to us (without your credit card/payment information), and we begin putting those funds to good use.  By making a contribution to this campaign, you acknowledge that you understand that you are contributing to fund the development of the Airing micro-CPAP device and not making a direct purchase. We appreciate your support, and we are hard at work developing the Airing prototype.

Sincerely,

The Airing Team

Any chance to get my nearly 100$ back?  |O
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kean on November 19, 2017, 02:55:34 am
Zero chance
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Cyberdragon on November 19, 2017, 05:52:57 pm
I speak scamguage.

TRANSLATION:

Dear sucker,

We are not sorry that we cannot return your money because we are explioting every loophole to scam people. It's too late anyway as we've already taken the money and squandered it on boats and hoes while pretending to develop some quack medical device. You decided to dump money on us without thinking, so it's totally your fault. We are very pleased that we were so easily able to dupe you, you sorry sucker.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Jay_Diddy_B on November 19, 2017, 11:05:16 pm
315 and the group,

This scampaign revolved around these perks (and similar perks):

Gold + 45 Airings

You will receive: • A voucher that can be exchanged for a 45 day supply of Airings (when they become available).* That’s a 30% discount off the anticipated price of $3 each. • Quarterly e-reports on engineering and regulatory progress *Subject to FDA clearance and doctor’s prescription in the US and local regulation abroad

These are the key statements are:

A voucher  - You were promised nothing more, nothing less that a voucher. You may already have received your voucher.


when they become available
 They may never become available. In which case the voucher received above, has no use.


Quarterly e-reports on engineering and regulatory progress 
You should get updates, they may be meaningless, but once a quarter, ever three months, you should get a report.


Subject to FDA clearance  The Food and Drug Administration regulates medical devices in the USA. If the FDA does approve the airing it will not become available and you have a worthless voucher.


doctor’s prescription
You need a prescription, from your doctor to buy the medical device. If you don't get a prescription, then you have a worthless voucher.

local regulation abroad
If you are not in the USA, because this is a medical device, similar rules may apply in your location.


That’s a 30% discount off the anticipated price of $3 each
It is most unlikely that you could have a medical device selling retail for $3.00 (About 2 Euro).

Since you were only promised a voucher, and the voucher has already been delivered you have no chance of getting a refund.
In subscribing to the campaign, you were giving money to support an R&D project with little to no chance of success. (That is the polite version)

 

In my opinion, this campaign should never have been allowed.


Regards,

Jay_Diddy_B
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Delta on November 20, 2017, 12:01:35 am
A fool and his money are easily separated.

No one purchases anything from IGG, they merely dontate money to a scheme.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on December 21, 2017, 02:51:57 am
This campaign update #54 came in last week but I forgot to post it. Here it is:

Quote
New Campaign Update!
The Airing: the first hoseless, maskless, micro-CPAP team just posted.

posted by Airing Inc.

Dec 13, 2017 • 12:57PM PST

Thank you!!
Dear Airing Supporters,

We are writing to let you know that we have decided to suspend our Indiegogo campaign at this time. Since many people have asked about the possibility of making an equity investment in Airing we decided to explore this option. After much consideration and discussion, we decided to offer equity through Wefunder.com, which is the most successful, and most experienced, of these platforms.  Since launching our successful equity crowdfunding campaign on Wefunder several weeks ago, we have learned that it is confusing and problematic to have two crowdfunding campaigns happening at the same time. Therefore we are suspending our Indiegogo campaign for now.

We would like to express our deep appreciation to you for being on this incredible journey with us. When we launched our Indiegogo campaign we were hopeful that we would raise enough money to develop the proof of concept prototype of the Airing micro-CPAP device.  And because of the support of over 21,000 backers we have made great progress towards that goal. We could not have come this far without you.

Right now we are focused on getting the other valve in the micro-blower to work properly. We are getting closer to overcoming this challenge with each iteration and are confident that we will get it working properly soon.

We know that you still may have many questions and we are happy to answer them. You can email us contact@fundairing.com anytime and we will get back to as quickly as possible.

Sincerely,

Stephen Marsh


Ok, so they closed the IndieGogo campaign... meaning no more "in demand" ... after raising $1,946,686 USD total funds on that site (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap-sleep-technology (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap-sleep-technology)). Currently the WeFunder site stands at $536,834 funds raised (https://wefunder.com/airing (https://wefunder.com/airing)). What does this mean exactly? Did their lawyers tell them that they can't do that? Did IndieGogo get upset? Dud WeFunder tell them to cut it out, or were they worried they were "diluting" their chances of meeting some target on WeFunder by still having IndieGogo going? Or did their investors make a complaint? Who knows... Still no word on what stage their device is at, no demonstration, they are WAY behind schedule in any case.... By now they originally promised a working prototype and early 2018 to be going through FDA testing.  :-DD
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: snoopy on December 27, 2017, 12:00:29 am
This was never going to work and is a classic case of PT.Barnums "sucker born every minute" !

This is a case of where you pays your money and never ever get what you pays for. Some prick has probably bought a house out of this. It has happened before too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqRA6BjtBk&t=1s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQqRA6BjtBk&t=1s)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on March 06, 2018, 06:31:56 am
It is worth noting that Airing is still under the Encite LLC parent company, or so it says on their WeFunder page. Just a little history of Stephen Marsh and his company, read this:

http://mandalitigationcommentary.blogspot.ca/2008/09/can-founder-director-and-30-stockholder.html (http://mandalitigationcommentary.blogspot.ca/2008/09/can-founder-director-and-30-stockholder.html)

In the above linked article, it basically mentions how Marsh was 30% owner of IFCT, and the company had a group of investors in it named Echelon Ventures. IFCT burned through cash and developed absolutely nothing, so in a cunning and strategic move, Marsh declared bankrupcy for IFCT and before Echelon could make a move to cash out or purchase assets, Marsh formed a new company Encite LLC to purchase what was left of IFCT for pennies on the dollar... Thereby reacquiring everything under a new company name and shielding himself from Echelon's claims. In any case, the lawsuit above was unable to establish Marsh and IFCT were the same and that he acted with full control over the entire process, but that the board was also involved in rejecting Echelon's bid, so Marsh and Encite LLC got away unpunished.... only to repeat the process now again with Airing.

On their WeFunder page it says:

KEY FACTS

We've established a very strong brand – 8 million visitors to fundairing.com; 136,000 followers on Facebook; over 55 million views of unsolicited web videos about Airing.

Over $4M has been raised to date – $1.9 million on Indiegogo from over 20,000 contributors since June 2015, making Airing one of the top grossing medical device campaigns across all crowdfunding platforms, and $2.15 million raised from investors.

Functioning prototypes of various components, some of which are moving at operational speed, have already been built. A key component has yet to be demonstrated – micro-blowers blowing air.

Multiple patent applications filed by Airing’s parent, Encite LLC, for technologies licensed to Airing for use in the device, with more being filed.
Strategic relationship with a major international manufacturer that provides key equipment for testing and demonstrating feasibility of the technologies used in the device.


So Encite LLC is actually parent company of Airing. And other than just filling a bunch of patents, they have yet to turn a profit from any product. They are a kind of patent trolling firm in that they make patent after patent and never seem to turn it into a practical application, but may eventually be able to sue others if they come close to infringement and perhaps cash in then on it.

Interesting also to note the following:

http://www.burlington.org/Legal_Notice1NorthAve.pdf (http://www.burlington.org/Legal_Notice1NorthAve.pdf)

And I quote....

Quote
NOTICE OF PUBLIC HEARING
PLANNING BOARD
TOWN OF BURLINGTON
The Planning Board hereby gives notice that it will hold a Public Hearing on Thursday, July 16, 2015 starting at or
after 7:00 p.m. in the Main Hearing Room of the Burlington Town Hall, 29 Center Street, Burlington, MA, to
consider the application of Encite LLC for approval of a Special Permit pursuant to Section 1.5.2 “Laboratories
engaged in research, experimental, and testing activities” of the Northwest Park PDD to allow a research and
development laboratory to relocate from Second Avenue and operate on property located at 1 North Avenue
in the Planned Development (PD) and Water Resource (WR) Districts, Burlington, MA, as shown on Assessor's
Map 39 as Parcel 8.
Documentation in support of this proposal is available for public inspection in the Planning Board office, Town Hall
Annex, Burlington, MA, during normal office hours, Monday through Friday and on the Planning Board’s website at
www.burlington.org/community_development/projects.php (http://www.burlington.org/community_development/projects.php).
BURLINGTON PLANNING BOARD
Barbara L’Heureux, Chairman

So this is probably the lab where they are working on the Airing.

There is also an article here:

http://burlington.wickedlocal.com/article/20150724/news/150727677 (http://burlington.wickedlocal.com/article/20150724/news/150727677)

Quote
Two small technology companies gained approval for special permits from the Planning Board July 16.

One is a relocation within Northwest Park and the other, based in Woburn, is branching out to Burlington to locate a biotechnology lab.

“We have some very interesting big companies in Burlington, Microsoft, Nuance, and so forth, but we also have some very interesting small companies,” Planning Board member Paul Raymond said.

Encite, LLC, is planning to move from its current offices at 41 Second Ave. to 1 North Ave. Although the special permit for “laboratories engaged in research, experimental and testing activities,” was previously approved, the upcoming move to a new location necessitates the use to be approved again.

Steve Logan, senior vice president of Nordblom Company, which owns Northwest Park, represented Encite at the meeting. Logan explained that Encite is a small company with fewer than 10 employees that started out doing research on fuel cells. It had a government contract to produce miniaturized fuel cells, and during that time discovered a method for making tiny fans that, when linked together in a series, form a contraption that attaches to the nose for sleep apnea patients.

Though still at the experimental stage, the discovery could potentially replace the large masks that patients typically to control their breathing during sleep, a machine commonly known as a continuous positive airway pressure device (CPAP).

The new product is called “Airing” and through an online funding campaign, close to $1 million has been raised for this device to continue through the design process, including FDA approval. Encite, LLC is owned by Stephen Marsh. According to the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office, Marsh holds several patents for technology devices.

The other company, Abpro Corporation, is located in Woburn and plans to open a satellite location at 15 A St. in Burlington. The company employs a total of 25 employees.

Ian Chan, CEO and president at Abpro, who represented the company at the public hearing with research scientist Sean Murphy, explained the company is focused on antibody research using natural molecules that fight disease.


“We have a novel platform that can create antibodies much faster,” said Chan. “This can be applied to oncology, which is our current focus.”

Abpro was approved for a special permit to engage in biotechnology activities, bio-safety levels 1 and 2, and the generation or storage of hazardous waste limited to the volumes classified as a very small quantity generator (VSQG) as defined by Burlington zoning bylaws, which require a positive recommendation from the Board of Health.

Planning Board member Carol Perna asked what defines a “small quantity” of hazardous waste. Chan said that based on his meeting with Board of Health staff, his understanding is it is defined as up to 27 gallons per month, but that Abpro would produce up to four liters (about one gallon) per year.

Any updates from Airing lately? NOPE.

Here's the latest update on IndieGoGo from 3 months ago:


Quote
posted by Airing Inc.
Dec 14, 2017 • 1:09PM
3 months ago
We are not going anywhere!!
Dear Airing Contributors,
We want to offer some clarity concerning our last update. At this time we have stopped taking contributions on Indiegogo. To be clear, nothing has changed regarding your vouchers and we are still moving ahead, full steam, to develop Airing’s micro-CPAP device to get this important product out to everyone as soon as possible.
For the time being, we have shifted our focus to selling equity to raise the capital needed to see this mission through to a successful completion. It is important that you, our loyal supporters, understand that we will continue to fulfill our obligations to you under our Indiegogo crowdfunding campaign.
 
We want to reiterate these important points:
 

While we have stopped taking new contributions on Indiegogo,  that does not affect the existing contributors.
Vouchers are still valid and can be redeemed when Airing becomes available.
We will continue to provide regular updates on Indiegogo, our website, and social media. And you can email us anytime.
We have received hundreds of emails, so please be patient and we will try to reply to everyone.
If you still haven't received your voucher, email us at contact@fundairing.com.
We are working as hard as we can to bring Airing to the market as soon as possible.
 

Keep faith in Airing and the mission we are on.
 
Sincerely,
 
Stephen Marsh

Yes.... They said it....

WE ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE!!!!

That's right, not going anywhere with the progress in development of this vapourware. Now that they've bilked the crowdfunders, they can go after venture capitalists too... just like they did with Echelon a few years earlier. Here's a prediction... When they run out of money and things start to grind to a halt, Marsh will make a new company and buy up all the assets of Encite LLC after it declares bankrupcy for pennies on the dollar, and continue on as a new corporate entity, shielded from any legal recourse. History repeating itself?
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on March 06, 2018, 06:48:38 am
One more interesting article... Fascinating read:

https://www.leagle.com/decision/indeco20111129126 (https://www.leagle.com/decision/indeco20111129126)

This article, while still discussing the legal case, is the most easily understandable to non-lawyers that I have seen.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: helius on March 06, 2018, 08:25:20 pm
Declaring bankruptcy does not give you a license to be "shielded from any legal recourse". When you enter bankruptcy, your assets come under control of the court and the court must sign off on any sale or transfer, with the goal of maximizing the cash to repay creditors. After creditors are paid, any remaining cash is distributed to shareholders: this means that common shareholders usually do not recover any money in bankruptcy, but that is by design. Since a startup's founders are typically the largest shareholders, bankruptcy is as great a loss for them as for anyone else.
When venture capitalists invest in a company, they usually impose onerous conditions (in what is known as a Term Sheet) including preferred stock classes, liquidation preferences, and what is known as a "ratchet". These provisions protect the VC capital in case the business falters and is either sold at a discount or liquidated. It sounds like the investor group in this case was not very professional and did not know how to protect their capital, and really do not qualify as venture capitalists.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Cyberdragon on March 06, 2018, 10:51:40 pm
Declaring bankruptcy does not give you a license to be "shielded from any legal recourse". When you enter bankruptcy, your assets come under control of the court and the court must sign off on any sale or transfer, with the goal of maximizing the cash to repay creditors. After creditors are paid, any remaining cash is distributed to shareholders: this means that common shareholders usually do not recover any money in bankruptcy, but that is by design. Since a startup's founders are typically the largest shareholders, bankruptcy is as great a loss for them as for anyone else.
When venture capitalists invest in a company, they usually impose onerous conditions (in what is known as a Term Sheet) including preferred stock classes, liquidation preferences, and what is known as a "ratchet". These provisions protect the VC capital in case the business falters and is either sold at a discount or liquidated. It sounds like the investor group in this case was not very professional and did not know how to protect their capital, and really do not qualify as venture capitalists.

So...they deserved it then. Stupid suckers separated from their money once again. >:D
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on September 13, 2018, 03:43:48 am
Latest technical update sounds like a bunch of smoke and mirrors to keep backers continuing to wait with baited breath...

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2018/7/11/technical-update-7112018 (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2018/7/11/technical-update-7112018)

How long will this go on? They will keep paying themselves a salary and keep busy in a lab screwing around until all the money dries up... And they have a lot of money to burn.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: dunkemhigh on September 14, 2018, 06:22:23 am
Even if this was physically possible to make, they won't be able to make a reliable one. In an idle moment I checked their blog and found this:

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/10/26/technical-update (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/10/26/technical-update)

Quote
Engineering is an iterative process and with each iteration you get closer to the goal.

That's strange. I thought engineering was about doing the number and working out the limits firts. No wonder they think they can make an impossible product. Their approach leads to:

Quote
The problem, simply stated, is that it was “sticking”. In order to fix that, we had to thin it out, and lo and behold, now it doesn’t stick! That’s the good news. Now the issue is it’s too thin to be airtight so we need to find the precise thickness that will allow the valve to move freely while remaining airtight when in the closed position. We’ll get it!

If (and that's a big if) they get one to work it will be just that one. They'll need to fart around with every one individually since they'll have no idea why that one works and the others don't. If anything said they haven't a clue on how to make this, I think this paragraph shouts it out.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: rs20 on September 14, 2018, 07:15:06 am
I also like this bit:

Quote
Since we outlined the challenge we are facing, I think it’s important to take stock of what we have accomplished:
  • Low cost integrated micro pressure sensor: prototyped and working
  • Nose buds that stay in place under high pressure: prototyped and working
  • Ergonomic outer plastic housing: prototyped and working
  • Micro-blower pump bodies: prototyped and working
  • Micro-blower valves operating thousands of times per second: prototyped and under test

Great, so all the bits that real engineers said was easy and possible from the start: "working". The one part that engineers said was never going to be possible to power from a sensible battery: "under test". Of course, power consumption hasn't been mentioned yet.

But of course, it looks so promising to a gullible person.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: dunkemhigh on September 14, 2018, 07:25:46 am
Just a brief thought brought on by wondering why they need separate inlet and exhaust... I wonder if it's possible to harvest energy from the outflow, much like regenerative braking is used for battery charging in electric cars. AFAIK, full lungs would provide some pressure, and breathing out against resistance is a lot less panic inducing than breathing in against same.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on November 30, 2018, 04:36:55 am
Latest update:

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2018/10/24/technical-update-october-2018-542lw (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2018/10/24/technical-update-october-2018-542lw)

Pot calling the kettle black:

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/3/23/counterfeit-airing (http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/3/23/counterfeit-airing)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on November 30, 2018, 05:16:29 am
I still think that they are much more likely to succeed than say uBean ... to me at least I think they are showing signs of legitimately working towards their stated goal .... even if they dont pull it off they at least seem to be quite serious in their development of the micro-blowers.


Time will tell I guess....  :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Richard Crowley on November 30, 2018, 05:25:52 am
I still think that they are much more likely to succeed than say uBean ... to me at least I think they are showing signs of legitimately working towards their stated goal .... even if they dont pull it off they at least seem to be quite serious in their development of the micro-blowers.
No.  The chances of either of them delivering their flagship product asymptotically approach zero.

Even if the Airing people DO get their "micro-blowers" to work (which seems extremely doubtful to me, at least for the original purpose of CPAP which requires operation against considerable back-pressure),  have they ever even mentioned the question of power?  There is no known power technology (including Ubeam   >:D) that is even remotely capable of powering their fantasy gadget.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: djos on November 30, 2018, 05:39:52 am
I still think that they are much more likely to succeed than say uBean ... to me at least I think they are showing signs of legitimately working towards their stated goal .... even if they dont pull it off they at least seem to be quite serious in their development of the micro-blowers.
No.  The chances of either of them delivering their flagship product asymptotically approach zero.

Even if the Airing people DO get their "micro-blowers" to work (which seems extremely doubtful to me, at least for the original purpose of CPAP which requires operation against considerable back-pressure),  have they ever even mentioned the question of power?  There is no known power technology (including Ubeam   >:D) that is even remotely capable of powering their fantasy gadget.

I agree with you, I was only refferring to creating funtional micro-blowers - the problems of power supply and air pressure are highly unlikely to be solved in their published formfactor.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: dunkemhigh on November 30, 2018, 05:45:27 am
Quote
asymptotically approach zero

Are you sure you meant to use that word?

Quote
noun a straight line that continually approaches a given curve but does not meet it at any finite distance.

asymptotic /ˌasɪm(p)ˈtɒtɪk/  adjective,

asymptotically /asɪm(p)ˈtɒtɪk(ə)li/ adverb

So what you're saying is that the product approaches but doesn't get to zero. I rather think you meant the opposite - it will definitely hit zero :)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Richard Crowley on November 30, 2018, 06:08:37 am
No,  I think they (both Airing and Ubeam) will drag it out until the organizations simply collapse under their own ignorance without ever admitting defeat. They will blame US for our "defeatist attitude".
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: dunkemhigh on November 30, 2018, 06:12:47 am
Mmmm. OK :)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Cyberdragon on December 01, 2018, 02:45:10 am
I still think that they are much more likely to succeed than say uBean ... to me at least I think they are showing signs of legitimately working towards their stated goal .... even if they dont pull it off they at least seem to be quite serious in their development of the micro-blowers.
No.  The chances of either of them delivering their flagship product asymptotically approach zero.

Even if the Airing people DO get their "micro-blowers" to work (which seems extremely doubtful to me, at least for the original purpose of CPAP which requires operation against considerable back-pressure),  have they ever even mentioned the question of power?  There is no known power technology (including Ubeam   >:D) that is even remotely capable of powering their fantasy gadget.

I agree with you, I was only refferring to creating funtional micro-blowers - the problems of power supply and air pressure are highly unlikely to be solved in their published formfactor.

But you too can wear a miniaturized nuclear reactor on your face once they develop it! >:D
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on January 03, 2019, 07:49:50 pm
Interesting site that lists crowd-funding and SEC filings of companies, may I present to you data on Airing:

https://crowdfilings.com/airing-inc-0001661081 (https://crowdfilings.com/airing-inc-0001661081)

I have copied some of the text below:

Quote
Airing Inc.
Airing Inc. logo via Clearbit
Profile
According to their SEC filings, Airing Inc. is a Corporation organized in DE on 12-17-2015. They report having 0 employee(s), and revenue in their most-recent fiscal year of $0.00 and $0.00 the prior year.

Location
1 North Avenue

Burlington, MA 01803

Equity Crowdfunding Campaigns
Reg CF Offering from Airing Inc. (Previous)
Campaign Details
According to their SEC filings, Airing Inc. previously ran a Regulation Crowdfunding campaign to raise $350,000.00 (up to a maximum of $1,000,000.00) in Preferred Stock via Wefunder before a deadline of 11-02-2018.

As compensation for managing the offering, Wefunder reported being compensated as follows:

4.0% of the offering amount upon a successful fundraise, and be entitled to reimbursement for out-of-pocket third party expenses it pays or incurs on behalf of the Issuer in connection with the offering.

In addition to any direct compensation, Airing Inc. reported that Wefunder would also receive the following financial interest in the offering:

Securities equal to 2.0% of the securities sold will be issued to the intermediary upon a successful fundraise.

More information about this issuer may also be available via Crowditz.com, including information about weekly and aggregate investor commitments.

Financial Information
The following information is taken directly from SEC filings.

Income Statement Items
Most Recent Fiscal Year   Prior Fiscal Year
Revenue   $0.00   $0.00
Cost of Goods Sold   $0.00   $0.00
Taxes Paid   $224.00   $-2,000.00
Net Income   $-1,589,852.00   $-58,685.00
Balance Sheet Items
Most Recent Fiscal Year   Prior Fiscal Year
Total Assets   $0.00   $0.00
Cash and Cash Equivalents   $615,855.00   $654,063.00
Accounts Receivable   $0.00   $0.00
Short-term Debt   $1,547,004.00   $1,095,745.00
Long-term Debt   $443,875.00   $101,081.00
Complete Reg CF filings list for Airing Inc.
[2017-10-31T12:54:41+00:00] Airing Inc. filed an amended Form C (Form C/A) regarding their offering to raise a target of $350,000.00 via Wefunder. The nature of the amendment was described as follows:

Form C was cut off in the initial filing, it has been replaced with the full version.

File number: 020-23714

New Filing Form C

[2017-10-31T12:29:10+00:00] Airing Inc. filed a Form C to raise a target amount of $350,000.00 (up to a maximum of $1,000,000.00) of Preferred Stock via Wefunder.

File number: 020-23714

Notice that while their revenues are obviously $0, their cash holdings, and the short-term and long-term debts are HUGE! Here is the page on the SEC filings which I guess are required once they start doing any sort of legal equity crowd-funding and as a condition of WeFunder to make sure. Also, I can't find it on WeFunder at all, so did they get rejected?

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1661081/000167025417000301/documents_list.htm (https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1661081/000167025417000301/documents_list.htm)

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1661081/000167025417000301/0001670254-17-000301-index.htm (https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1661081/000167025417000301/0001670254-17-000301-index.htm)

Here is the WeFunder page saying they raised $2 million+ dollars from 0+ investors. ?????

https://wefunder.com/airing (https://wefunder.com/airing)

NOTICE ALSO ON THE WEFUNDER PAGE.... STEPHEN MARSH IS GONE!!!!! He is not listed ANYWHERE!

Also have a look here, it shows some interesting stuff about amount sold, amount left to be sold (could this be a transfer of the company to other people, and asking for 506(c) exemption status):

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1661081/000166108118000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml (https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1661081/000166108118000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xml)

They also propose payment of $435,000 USD to the principals/executives in part 3 of the form...

Here is rule 506(c):

https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answers-rule506htm.html (https://www.sec.gov/fast-answers/answers-rule506htm.html)

And then this page gives conflicting information about the state of the WeFunder campaign:

https://www.crowditz.com/2017/11/airing-on-wefunder/ (https://www.crowditz.com/2017/11/airing-on-wefunder/)

I'll leave it to someone else in the forum reading this post to try and explain what is going on, as it is above my understanding of the equity crowd-funding investor rules and regulations. Bottom line is that things are now in the open and a bit more transparent with SEC involved, although it doesn't seem any closer to developing what they promised to do originally (a CPAP device). What they do appear to be doing, which is Marsh's mode of operandi, is run a research lab and see what comes out of it and patent the results to try and sell to other companies or pull some other corporate shenanigans (as his history has shown with his previous money-losing ventures... see first few pages of this thread... money-losing for investors, while he pocketed the money).

Hey at least it is fairly obvious what is going on, although the entire premise of collecting money was misleading in the original IndieGogo campaign, it seemed all along like it was all a moon-shot and that people where not buying product at all, but buying VOUCHERS *in case it every gets sold*. People couldn't look past their eagerness to read the fine print and dig a bit deeper to doubt it.... as opposed to our other much BIGGER example with our friend Theranos and Elizabeth Holmes who will probably end up behind bars and pay a huge fine.... time will tell:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/health/theranos-elizabeth-holmes-fraud.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/health/theranos-elizabeth-holmes-fraud.html)
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: edy on April 02, 2019, 01:39:59 pm
It's now April... nothing new from Airing since a facebook post announcing "Justin" joined the team back November 2018. Looks like they are quietly going into the night... with all your money. $$$  :-DD   If anyone can find absolutely anything new on their status, please post it. I can't even load their IndieGogo page anymore. Didn't they have periodic news updates/releases? It's been 4 months of silence.
Title: Re: The Airing
Post by: Kean on April 02, 2019, 02:14:12 pm
If anyone can find absolutely anything new on their status, please post it. I can't even load their IndieGogo page anymore. Didn't they have periodic news updates/releases? It's been 4 months of silence.

I can acccess the IGG campaign page.  Not a backer, but I am logged in.
There are no new updates, but a couple of replies from Airing including...

From 21 days ago
Quote
Thank you for your support, Jeffery. We will be posting an update soon. Please stay tuned! A lot of your questions are answered in the technical update. For eg., micro-pressure sensor will be used in the Airing device which will help with the auto-titration. For humidification, please refer to our FAQs page here: http://www.fundairing.com/faqs (http://www.fundairing.com/faqs) Enjoy and please feel free to email us if you have any further questions.
and
Quote
Hello Franco, we are sorry you feel scammed but we are working as quickly as we can and we are making a great progress. You will receive your Airing devices as soon as Airing becomes available. We appreciate your support and your patience!

From 24 hours ago
Quote
Hello there, we are working as quickly as we can and we are making a steady progress. Stay tuned and please don't lose hope, we haven't.

Someone also linked to this post on Medium from November which I don't think has been mentioned here before
https://medium.com/@joshdance/airing-micro-cpap-appears-to-be-a-scam-e7605a0f93f (https://medium.com/@joshdance/airing-micro-cpap-appears-to-be-a-scam-e7605a0f93f)