EEVblog Electronics Community Forum

Hey all.  I am new here.  I have some field experience repairing electronic devices.  But a couple of things from scratch to make life easier and what not.  So I am not a total newbie.
 
 But I am scratching my head and wondering if anyone has thoughts on this product.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/airing-the-first-hoseless-maskless-micro-cpap#/story

Airing: the first hoseless, maskless, micro-CPAP

My wife uses a CPAP and i just don't see how you can get the air-flow that a big machine produces in such a tiny package.

That device is not a CPAP (continuous positive airway pressure). Not even close. It is essentially an "internal" version of the Breathe-Right strips seen here:

https://www.breatheright.com/

Both my dad and my son had to use CPAP at some point. I am in the medical profession as well. This device, while it can probably help some people breathe better it is not CPAP and has no excuse trying to market itself as a replacement. The idea behind CPAP and the reason it works to prevent or reduce sleep apnea is because it "blows open" obstructions, usually caused by a narrow airway coupled with hypertonic musculature and excess tissue in the back of the throat.... The same tissue often causing snoring.

During inspiration, the delivery of positive pressure helps to reduce that fold from closing and "chattering" which is what causes the noise. The snore noise is usually on breathing in. If there is greater pressure, there is larger volume flow and the pressure keeps the flaps open. During expiration, it is usually not a big deal to overcome the positive pressure.

In any case, these professional CPAP machines cost a good amount of money, they are medical devices and have to be approved and must have various fail-safes and also settings that are set by a licensed professional that does a sleep study and checks on the exact type of apnea and the machine is prescribed. In fact, at least in Canada we get government insurance to help subsidize some of the cost through the hospital.

So this IndieGogo campaign may actually be dangerous in the way it is marketed. I hope they have a disclaimer like "Please check first with your doctor if this is right for you".

As far as whether the Airing actually does anything.... I'm sure it does. The Breathe-Right strips stick to your nose and there is a metal strip inside which wants to straighten so it essentially flares your nostrils. I have used them and found them to help improve breathing through the nose because I have narrow openings. If there is an obstruction on part of the nose that is surrounded by harder tissue (bone/cartilage) the tissue won't be as expandable and it won't work. But if you put it on the fleshy soft part of your nose near the nostrils it will flare it and may notice better breathing. Many of the football players and other athletes have been seen using the Breathe-Right strips.

But the Breathe-right doesn't claim to replace CPAP machines and cure sleep apnea, which is a complex multi-factorial disease that may have various causes and needs medical diagnosis and therapy. In some places you can even lose your driver's license if you are diagnosed with Sleep Apnea and do not follow the advice of the doctor, because it has been found to contribute to accidents. That forces many people (like truck drivers) to not get tested for fear of then losing their license or be forced to undergo testing and use of the CPAP which is tough to get used to.

The fact that they raised close to $500,000 boggles the mind. However, they are at least cheap. They anticipate it selling for $3 each... they want $135 for 90 Airings... or $1.50 each for founders. That is supposed to be a 90-day supply, although I imagine you can wash them or soak them in some kind of solution, or perhaps boil them and you can use the same ones or cycle through a small batch probably for much longer. If they are made of proper rubber they will probably be usable much longer, so it is not a bad price. I may buy a couple for $3 when they come out in stores but there is no way I'm going to buy 90 of them when I know you will probably be able to re-use them for some time. And they will probably help when you have a cold or some congestion and help you sleep a bit better without opening your mouth at night and getting a dry sore throat because of it.

I can see some issues with irritating the inside of your nostrils from chronic use though. If they have any Latex in them it may also cause allergy. The Breathe-right strips can only be used once usually since the adhesive that sticks to your nose loses its stickiness after you remove it. So I see the appeal for the Airing. BY THE WAY - Breathe Right pack of 30 strips costs about $18 at Wal-Mart, or about 60 cents each. For Airing they want $3 a unit and expect you to use a new one every day so you have to buy a 90-day supply for $270 ?(or $135 IndieGogo price)?

BOTTOM LINE:  While it may be helping you breathe a bit better, on occasional use, it should NOT be marketed or in any way shape or form claim any sort of association with treatment of Apnea and CPAP substitution! I see the comments and people think it is a replacement for CPAP... Oh my god wait until they start to have problems and some people lose their life or crash into others and injure other people because of this claim that it is a CPAP-less cure for Apnea.

(PS - close to half million $$$ in 2 days... with 28 days to go... to get 90 of these at a minimum order? have people lost their mind?)

Thanks for confirming what I was thinking.  A few people have suggested this thing to my wife, that's how I heard about it in the first place.  And I was thinking there is no way it could replace her machine. 

It's hard to believe that is has raised  over $500,000 and still has almost a month left on it.

The general principle seems to be: Indigogo = probably a scam; Kickstarter = possibly a scam, possibly massive over-reach by the campaign owners (unless it's about "high-end audio" in which case = always a scam). 

Well, people have donated nearly half a million beer-tokens after just 3 days, so they win either way.  Everyone sleeps with their mouth closed these days?  Who knew...   Does no one engage in critical thinking anymore?

(I realise I'm being unfair to all the good Kickstarters etc out there, but hey - when they allow the likes of this and the countless others like it and take their cut of the cash then you have to wonder...)

I wonder... the principle of the CPAP machine is to increase the pressure in the respiratory system by presenting that increased pressure to the nose and mouth. But as us electrical engineers know, all voltages (and pressures*) are relative, so you could expose the entire rest of the body to a negative pressure to achieve the same result. Of course, this would be even more uncomfortable and cumbersome than a traditional CPAP machine - a negative pressure spacesuit with a cutout around the face. But, would the legs and arms need the negative pressure? The crown of the head? The torso? Pure speculation on my part, but is it possible to expose just the neck area to a negative pressure to achieve the same result? Would this be significantly less irritating than a mask? Heck, people voluntarily use neck pillows.

Has this been considered?


* OK, there is such a thing as absolute pressure, but it's irrelevant here.

The subject of obstructive sleep apnea is complex. There are entire fields of medicine and respiratory therapy and neuroscience dedicated to it. As much as I'd love for this tiny little battery-powered nose-ventilator to work (much like Solar Roadways and Anti-gravity machines and so on)... the unfortunately REALITY is that we just DON'T KNOW. Based on what I have seen from the Airing campaign, the founders DON'T KNOW EITHER.... but they still produce a nice looking little prototype and sell the idea based on encouragement from an MIT guy (who they never the mention the name of) that said the numbers say it's possible.

Yet a few seconds later in the video he says he needs the money to develop the actual blowers and engineers to do the actual hard stuff.

There is a simple way to debunk the entire thing:

1. Are blowers even available? Or are they trying to invent what they show in the video?
2. If the blowers are available, they can easily test TODAY using even a rudimentary device how much pressure and air-flow they can produce, and the power consumed.... on a lab-bench.
3. Let's assume the lab-bench test shows it is possible.... Can they miniaturize it all to remotely appear like that nose-plug device? Can it be powered by a couple of Zinc-Oxide hearing aid batteries (which unfortunately I am also all too familiar with).
4. How much capacity is in a Zinc-Oxide hearing-aid style battery? What is the amp-hour rating and what is the maximum discharge rate capable?

For hearing aids, a Zinc-Oxide under typical usage for say 14-16 hours a day (hearing aids opened at night) the batteries typically last over 1 week.  Can you force 2 of these batteries to complete discharge in 8 hours over-night, or is there a limit on the max amperage they can handle? The whole point of Zinc-Oxide batteries is that they work differently from Lithium Ion and Alkaline, which makes them ideally suited for these types of low-consumption medical devices like hearing aids. I also have rechargeable hearing aid batteries but they do not last more than 1 day in that size.

Zinc-Oxide batteries also have a decay curve the minute you tear the oxygen seal off them, they allow oxygen in and they will expire. That's why you need to have them air-tight until ready to use. My wife made the mistake of removing the plastic seals from a couple of them and carried them in her purse for "backup" purposes, and after a few weeks realized they were no good.

So the idea behind the Airing is that it will probably come with built-in batteries that then have a seal somewhere that needs to be peeled to expose the hole to allow oxygen into the battery.

Finally, if they can manage to do all of this in a $3 retail device (as they claim) I will be completely blown away. Heck, I'd buy boxes of them just to hack them and use for other purposes! Can you imagine having micro-blowers, a micro-chip on PCB, a couple of Zinc-Oxide batteries, plus all the rubber/plastic moulding and packaging, all for $3 a piece retail (which they claim is their target price) and allow them to still turn a profit? The IndieGogo price turns out to $1.50 a piece.

A quick search online shows 8 hearing aid batteries (Duracell) for about $15... or $2 each. That's expensive. Specialized sites will sell you 60 batteries for about $20, so that's 33 cents a piece.... Much better. But the micro-blowers (which I have yet to understand... even if they have been invented) have got to cost a fortune. The only micro-blowers I have seen are piezo-electric ones from Murata which seem to be doing a good job:

http://www.mouser.com/new/Murata/muratamicroblowers/

See spec sheet here:

http://www.mouser.com/pdfdocs/MZB1001T02_ver6.PDF

The spec-sheet for the above blower requires a sinusoidal generator of 10-20 volts. According to CPAP machine specs, they usually want 6-20 mmH20 pressure and flow rates of 20-60 L/min. Let's say 10 mm H20. That is 0.1 kPascal. According to the Murata specsheet at 10Vpp they can get a pressure of 0.1 kPa at 0.5 L/min flow. If you use 20Vpp you can't even reach 1.5 L/min at a pressure of 0.1 kPa.

Again, it really all depends on this new-fangled micro-blower tech they are showing in the video. I can't find anything about it and certainly there has to be some work involved moving that volume of air under that pressure because remember it is not only about pressure. Even if you could create the pressure in a tiny volume, the minute you breathe in you have expanded the available space multiple times and the air just diffuses and pressure completely dissipates. You need the flow and volume constantly being pumped in order to pressurize the entire throat/lung system. Not to mention the amount of energy required to carry out all that work.... Not something you can accomplish the whole night with a couple of tiny batteries.

Here's a thought... if anyone has a Quadcopter, remove your batteries and instead strap on a bunch of Zinc-Air batteries as a replacement and see how much of a difference there is. If these batteries are able to pack that much more punch in the same volume and weight, let us know how it performs in comparison.

Typical CPAP pressures are around 10 cm H2O.  Unless this device can produce that kind of pressure and maintain it through the night, it's worthless.

No need for this device. All it takes is a little suction.....

I sent this letter to Airing (who are now close to surpassing $600,000 in 4 days and have 27 days left in their campaign). We'll see what kind of response I'll get. Here is my email to them at their preferred contact address contact@fundairing.com:

Hello,

I'm interested in learning more about your micro-blower "bellows"
technology. Is a prototype already developed on the scale you are
considering? Are you just trying to determine a way to mass-produce it
cheaply? Or are you still testing out the concept of using
charged-plates in that micro-blower design to see if it can drive air?
I'm curious to know whether any actual lab prototype (no matter how
crude) has actually been produced and used to actually measure
performance.

I am intrigued by the design. I think a valve will still be required
to direct air flow in one direction. Will you have any feedback sensor
in the Airing to adjust for pressure that will change the speed of the
micro-blowers? Also, will users of the Airing still be recommended to
undergo a sleep study using the device to see if it is actually
performing as designed and helping the apnea.

I look forward to hearing from you.

By the way, if you look at their perks, so far they have promised...

$199 level: 48 x 120 Airings = 5,760
$70 level: 447 x 30 Airings = 13,410
$95 level: 293 x 45 Airings = 13,185
$135 level: 2000 x 90 Airings = 180,000
$145 level: 40 x 7 Airings = 280
$155 level: 28 x 90 Airings = 2,520
$270 level: 15 x 180 Airings = 2,700
==========================
TOTAL: 217,855 Airings in just 4 days.

By the end of this campaign, depending on the perk levels how many Airings will they be on the hook for? Remember, many of these are "coupons vouchers" which will let them exchange for the Airings. But if everyone tries to redeem their coupons all at once....

That's some massive manufacturing.

Didn't someone say KickStarter and IndieGogo were not supposed to be for building a business, but helping to carry out a focused project?  Sounds like this is just Venture-Capital raising to start R&D on a possibility of maybe getting a product down the road. The risk has to be HUGE, at least much much higher than what I believe people being crowd-sourced are being led to believe.

They say on their IndieGogo page "WHAT WILL WE DO WITH YOUR MONEY":

Airing will use your money to accelerate the execution of our development plan. We will be able to expand our technical staff and get access to the equipment and materials critical to building a working prototype of our micro-blowers, which we can then test. The more we raise, the more resources we can deploy to speed this technology into the hands of the people who need it.

Basically, the money is to develop a micro-blower which they still have no idea if it will work, so they can test it and then tell everyone that it fails to meet the goals of the project. Several millions dumped into R&D and sorry to all the funders, your money has been put to good use! "We worked hard to try and bring our dream to reality but physics didn't agree with it. Sorry but it was a valiant effort, thanks to all who supported us!" - Airing LLC (prediction)

Fascinating story.... A little more into Encite and Marsh and the case between him and the venture capitalists that funded his failed fuel-cell startup (also PDF attached):

http://law.justia.com/cases/delaware/court-of-chancery/2011/ca-2476-vcg.html

Here are the first few paragraphs:

This case involves a claim for breach of the fiduciary duty of loyalty. At the center of this dispute are the assets (mostly intellectual property) of Integrated Fuel Cell Technologies, Inc. (“IFCT” or the “Company”), a nowdefunct tech startup company founded by Stephen Marsh to develop potentially revolutionary micro fuel cell technology. This technology, if perfected, could have replaced batteries in portable electronic devices such as cell phones and laptops. Despite several rounds of financing, IFCT was never able to develop the technology into a commercially viable product, and the Company never produced a consistent stream of revenue. This was a problem, of course, for IFCT’s investors, particularly Echelon Ventures, L.P. (“Echelon”), a Boston-area venture capitalist firm that was IFCT’s principal investor and a holder of the majority of the Company’s preferred stock. Since investing in IFCT, Echelon had worked consistently to reduce Marsh’s influence at IFCT.

As IFCT approached insolvency, it became apparent to IFCT’s board that a sale of the Company’s assets was the only viable solution. The board, which consisted of two Echelon-appointed directors, Marsh, an independent director, and the CEO, conducted a bidding process to sell IFCT’s assets. The Company received several bids, but the major bids at issue in this case came from a group of investors organized by Marsh and from a group of investors organized by Echelon. Several of the investors in Marsh’s group (notably including Marsh himself) went on to form Encite LLC (“Encite”), the plaintiff in this case. Echelon’s group comprised individuals and entities that had participated in a bridge loan to finance the sale of IFCT’s assets, and most of these participants were holders of the same class of preferred stock as Echelon.

The bidding process lasted about five months, and the board eventually approved the Echelon-backed bid. Marsh believed that the rest of the board had not adequately considered, or had wrongfully rejected, the Marsh-backed bid. While the CEO was working out a consent solicitation with IFCT’s lawyers to send to the stockholders, Marsh informed the stockholders that they were about to be sent a bid approved by interested directors, and that superior bids had been ignored or cursorily negotiated. Based on a leaked draft consent solicitation and at Marsh’s direct urging, an IFCT stockholder and friend of Marsh’s filed a derivative suit. Apparently this was the last straw in the Marsh-Echelon relationship, a relationship that had been difficult since its inception. The board withdrew the Echelonbacked offer, and all of its members besides Marsh quickly resigned. Marsh, then the sole director of IFCT, instead of pursuing any outstanding offers, took the company into bankruptcy, wherein the Marsh-led group of investors (Encite) submitted the winning bid for IFCT’s assets, beating out a competing Echelon-backed bid.

Having secured the intellectual property of IFCT for himself and facing the opportunity to start over with the technology he had created, Marsh could have continued on his way, content with his victory over the venture capitalist firm that from the outset had tried to force him out of any position of power in IFCT. Instead of taking his victory to the bank and proceeding to develop his nascent fuel cell technology, Marsh decided that the best course was to continue his struggle with his former fellow board members and Echelon, and he filed this suit alleging that the Director Defendants breached their fiduciary duties to IFCT, abetted by Echelon.

In the end, if you read the entire PDF, you see an interesting story of corporate-legal shenanigans. Bottom line is Marsh may have learned his lesson and decided to go through crowd-funding to avoid all the legal hassles. If things don't go through, he is unlikely to face anywhere close to the same legal costs and challenges. He is free to do as he pleases along with some of his friends who were also part of the IFCT/Encite defunct tech start-up that he put into bankruptcy.

I wonder... the principle of the CPAP machine is to increase the pressure in the respiratory system by presenting that increased pressure to the nose and mouth. But as us electrical engineers know, all voltages (and pressures*) are relative, so you could expose the entire rest of the body to a negative pressure to achieve the same result. Of course, this would be even more uncomfortable and cumbersome than a traditional CPAP machine - a negative pressure spacesuit with a cutout around the face. But, would the legs and arms need the negative pressure? The crown of the head? The torso? Pure speculation on my part, but is it possible to expose just the neck area to a negative pressure to achieve the same result? Would this be significantly less irritating than a mask? Heck, people voluntarily use neck pillows.

Has this been considered?

* OK, there is such a thing as absolute pressure, but it's irrelevant here.

What you are describing sounds a lot like an Iron Lung, only more oppressive.

I found the Encite Corp website here... It is pretty amateurish looking:

www.encitecorp.com

There is a domain registration info here attributed to Stephen Marsh for a site called www.cpapnia.com:

http://wa-com.com/cpapnia.com

Notice it lists Stephen Marsh's email address as stephen@encitecorp.com along with the Burlington MA address also stated as headquarters of the Airing project:

Domain Name: CPAPNIA.COM
Registry Domain ID: 1857116564_DOMAIN_COM-VRSN
Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.networksolutions.com
Registrar URL: http://networksolutions.com
Updated Date: 2015-01-29T01:58:27Z
Creation Date: 2014-05-02T20:08:19Z
Registrar Registration Expiration Date: 2017-05-02T04:00:00Z
Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
Registrar IANA ID: 2
Registrar Abuse Contact Email: abuse@web.com
Registrar Abuse Contact Phone: +1.8003337680
Reseller:
Domain Status:
Registry Registrant ID:
Registrant Name: Marsh, Stephen
Registrant Organization: Encite, LLC
Registrant Street: 41 Second Avenue
Registrant City: Burlington
Registrant State/Province: MA
Registrant Postal Code: 01803
Registrant Country: US
Registrant Phone: +1.7814240971
Registrant Phone Ext:
Registrant Fax:
Registrant Fax Ext:
Registrant Email: stephen@encitecorp.com
Registry Admin ID:
Admin Name: Marsh, Stephen
Admin Organization: Encite, LLC
Admin Street: 41 Second Avenue
Admin City: Burlington
Admin State/Province: MA
Admin Postal Code: 01803
Admin Country: US
Admin Phone: +1.7814240971
Admin Phone Ext:
Admin Fax:
Admin Fax Ext:
Admin Email: stephen@encitecorp.com
Registry Tech ID:
Tech Name: Marsh, Stephen
Tech Organization: Encite, LLC
Tech Street: 41 Second Avenue
Tech City: Burlington
Tech State/Province: MA
Tech Postal Code: 01803
Tech Country: US
Tech Phone: +1.7814240971
Tech Phone Ext:
Tech Fax:
Tech Fax Ext:
Tech Email: stephen@encitecorp.com
Name Server: NS71.WORLDNIC.COM
Name Server: NS72.WORLDNIC.COM
DNSSEC: Unsigned
URL of the ICANN WHOIS Data Problem Reporting System: http://wdprs.internic.net/
>>> Last update of whois database: Sat, 07 Mar 2015 12:43:37 GMT <<<

That encitecorp.com site looks pretty bad. I don't think it was updated since 2006. I bet cpapnia.com was being considered as an alternate name to Airing. It is now a landing page under construction having links to CPAP supplies.

Quite a mystery... I truly hope they have some breakthrough as they say.

Marsh has these others registered as well (besides cpapnia and encitecorp):

airingllc.com (under construction)


l _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ w.com (according to a reverse lookup but I can't make out the name).

$668,000 in 10 days... over 6x their funding goal ("Flexible" funding which apparently means even if they didn't reach $100,000 they could keep whatever they took in). Makes you wonder, if they had taken in $70,000 would they have still had enough for all the R&D to make a go of it?

I am enjoying to watch this campaign. Thanks to the original poster for announcing it here. 21 days left... I can't wait to see what happens. This will be a fun one to watch.

dadler.... That video was hilarious! Thanks for sharing! 

The Airing also has something called FLEXIBLE FUNDING which I mentioned a couple posts ago. That should be a huge warning. 

Look at this article titled "Why ‘Flexible Funding’ Campaigns on IndieGoGo are Dangerous":

http://timidmonster.com/why-flexible-funding-campaigns-on-indiegogo-are-dangerous/

Obviously nobody seems to have caught that or knows enough to read between the lines. We already have an engineering issue, a flexible funding red-flag issue, a project creator with previously failed start-up lawsuit and dubious business practice (Encite LLC). How much more does it take for people to get the message?

... Oh that's right, they AREN'T getting the message because they never bothered to scrutinize it at all or look around the web for other opinions. They just threw money at it with blind hope... Sad especially when people suffering with this medical condition are grasping for any hope of an alternative. Seeing by some of the IndieGoGo comments, some backers are having a hard time getting refunds as well. Not sure how that works... I thought it was automatic.


These guys are doing so well sucking up people's money, that they are running out of ideas on Perks! This survey was put up by Airing in the last few days to ask for suggestions on additional perks:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/MDYZ2QL

Unbelievable! 

Another quick update:  They are at $726,782 USD with 2 weeks to go. Vastly exceeding their $100,000 flexible funding goal. People still don't get it, although a few more comments have come in finally asking the same questions we did here in our thread long ago.

I just realized that the PERKS are actually vouchers for when Airings become available. They do not promise anyone an Airing directly. Does that mean, they can technically claim they delivered to their backers (and meet IndieGogo guidelines) as long as they send them a piece of paper (voucher)? And not the actual product? Hmmm....

I wonder... the principle of the CPAP machine is to increase the pressure in the respiratory system by presenting that increased pressure to the nose and mouth. But as us electrical engineers know, all voltages (and pressures*) are relative, so you could expose the entire rest of the body to a negative pressure to achieve the same result. Of course, this would be even more uncomfortable and cumbersome than a traditional CPAP machine - a negative pressure spacesuit with a cutout around the face. But, would the legs and arms need the negative pressure? The crown of the head? The torso? Pure speculation on my part, but is it possible to expose just the neck area to a negative pressure to achieve the same result? Would this be significantly less irritating than a mask? Heck, people voluntarily use neck pillows.

Has this been considered?


* OK, there is such a thing as absolute pressure, but it's irrelevant here.

You mean like these?

Thanks to some "anonymous" backer by the name of Billie Joe Bob, this comment has appeared a couple hours ago on the Airing campaign (although I doubt it will make much difference, it is something):

Billie JoeBob
2 hours ago
My opinions: Tiny fans probably can’t generate the necessary pressure, and if they could, tiny batteries could not provide the necessary current for one night. Conventional CPAP masks do not use prongs that fit inside nostrils — they might be painful and might not hold much pressure. CPAP manufacturers constantly improve their devices, and probably would have already invented this sort of thing, if feasible. Beware — there is no prototype. I donated $5 so I could make a public comment.

And just when you thought the media was done with it, here is a CBS local TV news story from a few days ago:

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/07/02/burlington-company-hopes-airing-device-will-revolutionize-sleep-apnea-treatment/

To be clear, I do think this is a scam, but I'm struggling to convincingly technically debunk it (or at least, debunk it as comprehensively as Solar Roadways).

CPAP pressure = 10mm H2O = 13.5 millibar 10cm H2O = 9.8 millibar
Resting breathing rate = 7.5 L per minute
Sleep time = 8 hours
Energy density of an Li-ion battery = Up to 620 W·h/L

a*b*c/d = 2.17 1.58 cubic centimeter battery to power the device for a night.

Now, reasons why this estimate will be conservative: inefficiency in motors, friction, inefficiency of pump mechanism, etc. Can we put hard numbers of any of these factors? I can't off the top of my head, I don't know HVAC.  Reasons why the estimate might be liberal could be if they manage to achieve energy regeneration on exhalation, which seems extremely ambitions but not impossible.

The entire campaign is emphasizing that people are buying the devices, when really the emphasis is that you are donating to research on building and testing micro-blower technology which doesn't exist at all.

Even if there has been a breakthrough in micro-blowers, surely the creator Stephen Marsh (who already has an interesting history, see earlier posts in this thread) could have made even the most crude prototype.

The best micro-blowers today are fan or piezo based and do create pressures but move a tiny volume of air. This Airing campaign is a huge money sinkhole for Marsh to either do nothing and run with the money, or spend it over the next few years (with a nice salary of course) on a "moonshot" project whose real risk of producing nothing is very conveniently being buried by the campaign and all who report it. Backers all seem to think the device exists or is close to existing and is proven and that in 2 years they will be getting a voucher in the mail to pick up their free Airings.

Now as a purely passive device like Breathe-right strip, the Airing could probably hold your nose open. But my concern is that it is being sold as a CPAP replacement and has taken advantage of a desperate population looking to grasp on to anything, by a guy who has a shoddy business history which has amounted to a previous bankruptcy with nothing to show for it.

Any HVAC thermodynamics engineer should be able to calculate the energy required to sustain thus kind of pressure with volumes of air worth breathing for 8 hours. We have 2 years... I will read up on my old books and try to post something here, as a personal challenge and to learn something.

I hope this is real, my dad and my son both had experience with CPAP, I may be next. We both had the clunky big machines. But Airing sounds too good to be true, it probably is

Mikerj - yes, I was wondering that - but I don't know enough about CPAP theory to know if that is a problem, and assumed that if that is a flaw it is so blindingly obvious that it would have zero'ed the development before it began.

This is the reason it is pointless to argue with backers:

Pete Williams
17 hours ago
Thanks for your “opinions” Billie JoeBob. Now take your fake name and $5 and go back to working for whatever giant CPAP company you work for. We don’t need industry moles trying kill off this great invention that will hopefully rescue us from those brutal masks and tubes you’ve got us tied to. I’m sure you would love to do to Airing what Big Auto did to the electric car, but there are clearly thousands of us willing to bet a few bucks on something better.

Thanks to some "anonymous" backer by the name of Billie Joe Bob, this comment has appeared a couple hours ago on the Airing campaign (although I doubt it will make much difference, it is something):

Quote

Billie JoeBob
2 hours ago
My opinions: Tiny fans probably can’t generate the necessary pressure, and if they could, tiny batteries could not provide the necessary current for one night. Conventional CPAP masks do not use prongs that fit inside nostrils — they might be painful and might not hold much pressure. CPAP manufacturers constantly improve their devices, and probably would have already invented this sort of thing, if feasible. Beware — there is no prototype. I donated $5 so I could make a public comment.

And just when you thought the media was done with it, here is a CBS local TV news story from a few days ago:

http://boston.cbslocal.com/2015/07/02/burlington-company-hopes-airing-device-will-revolutionize-sleep-apnea-treatment/

I can't believe that calculation is correct. As a battery can be 620 Watt hours per litres, that is  0.62 Whrs per cubic centimetres, so a 2.17 cm^3 battery can supply around 1.35 Watt hours, and that has to last for the entire night - so the most the blowers could use is around 150mW.

That is only enough to run a small 35mm / 600mW fan that is on my desk for 2 hours.... and that fan only has enough pressure to just lift 10 post-it notes, Even if their fan is 100% efficient it must be feeble.

I know a bit about CPAP, as I put my son on it for a couple of years when he was younger...
just as interesting is the problem of humidification - it would be truly unpleasant to have dry air forced up your nose all night.

7.5 litres per minute * 13.5 millibar = 0.16875 watts delivered pneumatic power.

As I called out in my original post, my calculation assumes 100% efficient fans/pumps and motors; the fan on your desk may be only 1% efficient (in terms of pressure drop sustained * flow rate) given that it's just wafting around this ethereal stuff we call air, and because the air can just flow back between the blades, preventing the fan from ever developing much pressure. Thing is, e.g., vane pumps might be more efficient because the air can't just leak back between the blades; which is why I'm basically asking for hard numbers of the inefficiencies of various fan/pump technologies. Obviously miniaturizing a fan probably makes it even less efficient, which is why this project is so very dubious, but I still think if we're so sure it's bogus, we should be able to back that up with hard numbers? (Even though the 2cc battery pretty much blows it out of the water by itself).

Once again, the media doesn't surprise me.... From a couple days ago Dailymail UK:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3151419/Could-nose-ring-help-beat-snoring-Matchbox-sized-device-pumps-air-nose-continuously-night.html


And I quote the article, which seems to state this as "fact" even though nothing has actually been developed yet and is all speculative:

The new device, called Airing, consists of a 2 in-long, chunky plastic nose ring that weighs less than an ounce. It has two protruding buds, made from a soft, pliable, silicon rubber material, which fit into the nostrils.

The buds contain hundreds of mini pumps, which take air from the atmosphere and deliver it into the nostrils under a slight pressure, which keeps the airways open.

It's powered by inbuilt batteries, which provide sufficient energy for the device to work for eight hours. Made from recyclable, cheap materials, it is designed for single use and costs around £2 (there are multiple sizes in order to accommodate different nostril shapes).

Research suggests that the device can produce the same air pressure as traditional CPAP machines.

Hello Dailymail? Where did it say anywhere on that KickStarter page that the device has had *any* research? The whole point of the KS campaign is to fund the research!

Didn't read the whole thread with a magnifying glass, but it seems some of the energy estimates mentioned are more than an order of magnitude off.

Standard CPAP mask machines start at 40 mm H₂O, 4 cm, and go up to 25 cm, 250mm, at the normal limit. A pressure difference of 10 mm H₂O, 1 cm, will do nothing.

Many CPAP users have sleep apnea problems due to being seriously obese, and they do need that much static pressure to open their airways.

Increase your energy estimates by a factor of 25, please.

Good observation. I think we've mixed up "mm" and "cm" a few times along the way. But it is "cm" of water, at least 10x factor difference from any previous calculation that may have assumed "mm". And if the equations had any squares involved it would be 100x off.

Didn't read the whole thread with a magnifying glass, but it seems some of the energy estimates mentioned are more than an order of magnitude off.

Standard CPAP mask machines start at 40 mm H₂O, 4 cm, and go up to 25 cm, 250mm, at the normal limit. A pressure difference of 10 mm H₂O, 1 cm, will do nothing.

Many CPAP users have sleep apnea problems due to being seriously obese, and they do need that much static pressure to open their airways.

Increase your energy estimates by a factor of 25, please.

Thanks, well spotted. A factor of 10 increase (10cm H20) is sufficient to completely debunk this concept; while whether the typical user requires 25cm is maybe pushing things too far, so I'd be tempted to just x10 for the sake of compelling debunking.

Maybe it is a valid research project.

1. Find a valid 'need' for a medical product,

2. Propose an attractive but unworkable solution on a crowd-funding site.

3. Close it the funding down just before it is accepted

4. Write paper on "how crowdfunding sites encourage snake-oil products for desperate sufferers of medical issues".

5. Publish / profit?

Or maybe it is cheap market research?

Don't worry, Airing have cleared everything up:

Answer regarding Airing device and treatment pressure: Can Airing produce as much air pressure as a typical CPAP machine?

The pressure generated by the typical CPAP machine ranges from 1 to 20 centimeters of water (cmH20), known as the treatment number. A doctor or sleep technician tests the patient to determine the appropriate treatment number. The Airing device has been designed to generate the full range of treatment pressures up to and in excess of a treatment number of 20.

Ironically, this just digs them into a deeper hole! Now they're effectively promising 20cm of H2O, which one can trivially prove is impossible for a whole night in such a small package!

Note that everything below is focussed on figuring out the energy budget, which doesn't look like such a compelling way of debunking this, although it might become one if we can nail down some efficiency figures. But edy's points about one way valves and so on (that are a bit beyond me tbh) and mikerj's point that the air will just escape through the mouth (unless the snoring happens north of the mouth?) still hold.

Quote from: ElectroIrradiator on July 10, 2015, 04:50:46 pm

Increase your energy estimates by a factor of 25, please.

Thanks, well spotted. A factor of 10 increase (10cm H20) is sufficient to completely debunk this concept; while whether the typical user requires 25cm is maybe pushing things too far, so I'd be tempted to just x10 for the sake of compelling debunking.

Actually, not so fast. I just realised that mm H2O was just a mistype; 10cm H2O is 9.8 millibar, right? So my earlier calculation was actually liberal -- assuming 100% efficiencies everywhere gives a battery volume of 1.6cc (google calc link). 3.2cc for the promised 20cm H2O case. So it's not as if these blowers need to be an impossible 1000% efficient to work, 100% is enough. So debunking this purely on theoretical energy required is no good, you have to presuppose a certain degree of inefficiency in the blowers to debunk it. Now of course, microblowers are going to be horrendously inefficient; I don't think this project will work, but can we put a figure on those inefficiencies?

I think we can calculate work needed to move that volume of air (regardless of pressure) since that is a critical parameter. Then the actual pressure the blower can produce when it is obstructed is going to be based on the design of the blower construction, how "leaky" it is when faced with a blockage.... we will then have to show it can sustain 6-20mm Aq. But the first part is simply moving a volume of air assuming 100% perfect mechanical driving force to sustain breathing.

This isn't trivial; there's no simple lower bound on how much energy it takes to move a volume of air a certain distance (in the same way that a frictionless car will move forever with in a slight push, or the planets orbiting the sun endlessly*). However, getting that car (or volume of air) to move a certain distance, at a certain speed, while overcoming a certain amount of friction does give a certain amount of energy required, but that's much more involved to complicate with so many variables. But in an electronic analogy, these things correspond to inductance and resistance; and I think air is light enough that the simple pressure*flow calculation will dominate (or, put another way, the pressure term there will be dominated by the simple static pressure, not resistance in the airways or the inertia of the air).

* Disclaimer: there will be an end.

If IndieGogo doesn't stop this campaign, well they are no better than the scammers. People should sue IndieGogo for not abiding by their own rules. Wait. Do they have any rules? Do they ever enforce them? and did Airing violate them? That's what some backers are trying to prove.

I'm afraid crowdfunding, and Indiegogo in particular has peaked.  If it was a stock, I would short it.  It's scams like these that I think are responsible.  I'll bet in a few more years crowdfunding will no longer exist - at least in its current form.

I think crowd-funding will continue. Just not enough people affected to stop the influx of more players. Perhaps laws will be formed to at least increase accountability and reduce abuse of the system.

@Kean: Thanks so much for posting that deleted update (how did you find it? was there a cache somewhere or did a backer copy it while it was still up?).


Now I understand why so many people are upset. They deleted the update 2 days ago, but have not posted their promised "clarification" and there are 63 hours to go. As well, money is still coming in as they are at around $807,095 now. Those funds appear to be the bare minimum to simply fund construction of a micro-blower prototype and see if it will actually blow enough air at the pressures they want. How did they come up with a $3/Airing figure? They do not even know if they can manufacture it.

They are WAY WAY WAY over-promising something that nobody seems to have any clue about actually working, and after $1,000,000 spent they will likely find it can't be done. Much like that young lady who did that Ultra-Sonic charging (uBeam: http://ubeam.com/ ). Didn't they also get $750k in funding and have nothing? Wait, I think they took in $10 million in venture capitalist funding.

Conclusion: They have no idea what they are doing and if what they are proposing even works, but have no problem using a crowd-funding site (and poorly regulated one) like IndieGoGo to prey on desperation from medical patients who suffer from this horrible condition.

User "fishandchimps" continues his rampage and will likely do so until the end of the campaign in about 43 hours. Meanwhile, Airing is silent and despite the rampage have increased to $812,148:

fishandchimps
11 minutes ago
I sent an email to GE Global Reseach’s legal dept. asking them to at least have a look see here ?
Ideally before your campaign ends.
No response from IGG. Again not a big surprise, they get their cut even before you get yours. It’s a lot of money.
I hope my healthy skepticism is misplaced but…..?
A few simple answers would send me packing.

fishandchimps
1 hour ago
It also appears the patented GE technology involved is dependent on AC current so some sort of power converter is required to run it from a DC source ?
This may have some bearing on why repeated questions and requests about rechargeable units instead of disposable “Airings” seemingly won’t be addressed here ?
It’s kinda moot though since it appears even GE hasn’t gotten to the nano levels of the proposed mechanisms assigned to these 2017 “Airing” units ?
Any comments for clarity ?
I’ll wait.

fishandchimps
3 hours ago
No answers – No surprise. Other than when you’re up-selling or holding contests to increase your sales your communication skills are sorely wanting.
Very typical of scam campaigns though usually not before final closing.
If I Google “dual jet piezo cooling fans” I find it is a recently developed GE proprietary product only available thru licensing from them ?
This brings about many other questions relative to this project.
I’m interested if anyone else is at all curious about any of this ?

@Kean: Thanks so much for posting that deleted update (how did you find it? was there a cache somewhere or did a backer copy it while it was still up?).

I got it from a (deleted) email from IGG.
If you're logged in to IGG, you can "follow" any project and you'll receive announcements via email, even if you don't back the project, and even after the funding finishes.
Somewhat easier (& cheaper) than the KS $1 backer trick.  But you still cant post comments (they'd probably get deleted anyway...)

Now at $843,171.... 34 hours left to go. Who in their right mind is still backing this campaign?  Will they beat $860k? $880k? At this rate they may even hit the $900k mark. Meanwhile, backers are starting to post their anger with no word from Airing.... Like you couldn't see this coming a mile away.

Imagine they DIDN'T post their 9th update (which was deleted)? Would anyone have bothered to comment? Airing nearing the finish line... But stumbled on a stupid update they should't have posted, finally getting some well-deserved heat from backers, but it's too late. They coast through winning the vast majority of money.

Celia has this to say:

Celia
9 minutes ago
each and every update pushes me to a higher level of disgust and disbelief.

how can a campaign over 800 percent “over” funded be asking for a strong finish?

This is just not right.

No answers to legitimate questions from people who REALLY need this, just more funding “options” and request for funds.

i personally just put in enough to be a supporter for future options. I feel quite badly for anyone who really truly would need this seemingly vaporware object.

And then another by this user (he probably meant "You Are not Alone..."):

ihope4
1 hour ago
You are not along “fish and chimps”. I am not happy with the last retracted proposal and today they are upping the anti. Looks like we’re out in the cold with cumbersome masks until GE or someone else makes a new product.

According to the IndieGogo fee page, they charge 4% for campaigns that reach their goal and another 3-5% for credit card processing. So IndieGogo could stand to make $32,000 on this, and the credit card companies another $24,000 - $40,000.

Watching the past 24 hours of this campaign is hilarious.... 

User "fishandchimps" is back at it, after having been possible "BLOCKED" he is now under a new account:

foamarium
17 minutes ago
Here’s a very telling tidbit of interest for all.
I had to “donate” another $1 with a friend’s account because my Fish and Chimps comments have been completely blocked from posting further on this !!!!!
Big red letters “An unknown error has occurred”
Never happened before.
What a hoot ! I must be hitting some nerves ?
Please people….at least look a bit deeper here yourselves.
The more I look this the less convinced I am and the “creator’s” mounting abuses don’t bode well for the future.


foamarium
41 minutes ago
I need something like this to be true but the more I look into things the more it’s shaping up to be a pie in the sky !
I’m astounded people can be so casual about handing over close to $1M based on a few paragraphs, a video and a few pics of an empty shell attached to someone’s nose ?!
Reread this pitch and at least do a minimum due diligence. It’s nuts !
I reduced my “pledge” to the $1 it merits and can wait the extra few months if things turn out to be true.
Ask questions !

Quote from: edy on July 14, 2015, 05:38:07 pm

Thanks. I logged in to Indiegogo and looking for a "favorites" button or "follow" but can't seem to figure out how to follow a campaign.    Must be something obvious I'm overlooking. Any help would be appeciated! Thanks!

In the web page, look for the heart shaped icon on the left of the title video (sometimes I've seen it below the video).  The icon hould say Follow under it.  Similarly on mobile apps there is a heart shaped button on each campaign page (verified in iPhone app).

Thanks. I've looked and looked but can't find a Heart. See attached screenshot. That's on my phone browser, and also in Google Chrome. Maybe I need to download the actual app? And I'm logged in on the website and still no heart icon. I'll check out the app.

No surprise, a few of the posts from "fishandchimps" and "foamarium" have been deleted from the campaign page. I wish I had copied all of them here before they were removed, like I did the other ones above!

Apparently, they said they received a message from Indiegogo that that the comments were abusive in nature and therefore was not allowed to post from the "fishandchimps" account. So they used "foamarium" to post and explain what happened, and that was deleted as well.

So I tried to send the following message to user "foamarium" through Indiegogo:

I have been following your posts and completely agree with you. Now I noticed many of your comments have been removed. I've been logging this campaign and the deletion of comments and wanted to hear more of your story to post in a blog/forum. If you can share what happened, I'd like to know. Thanks!

And Indiegogo returned an error message as follows:

You can only send messages to people that you're connected to through a campaign.

So there is really no way to contact other backers if you are not "in" on the same campaign.

This has all been very enlightening. Being new to crowd-funding I have now learned many valuable lessons. Unless you are constantly viewing comments and logging them, you cannot trust any interaction on that site. It rates at -1 out of 10 in my books.

If Airing had addressed the comments (many of which were tame initially) from their backers with the same diligence and promptness as asking for additional money, none of this would happen. The questions were valid and quite polite initially. What happens when you have over $800,000 in backing, post a shockingly different timeline for an update and retract it, and then ignore your backers asking you legitimate questions is you get people angry. Deleting them all and ignoring things in the last few days of the campaign while Indiegogo and Airing censor things is not a good model for a community-built system and they will pay for it one way or another. Karma is a bitch!

Indiegogo's "Trust & Safety" position is a complete JOKE.

I tried to send fishandchimps a message via IGG because we both backed another failed IGG campaign (BE Maker), but I couldn't do it either and got the same error.  I'm guessing only backers and campaign creators can contact each other - yet another way to keep the masses in-line!

You are right, to PM a IGG user both have to back the same campaign. And I found a big campaign with only one comment from the creator, maybe he can block the comments section or he has a script that deletes new comments. See https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/skully-ar-1-the-world-s-smartest-motorcycle-helmet/x/10280792#/comments
The hole IGG platform is designed to maximize the income, after a campaign is funded it switches to "ever funding" now called "InDemand". The page looks like a web shop and I found many shitty news sites reporting about the newest invention and how cool it is ending the story with you can buy it on IGG. Yes BUY. Looking on the usernames and profiles on some scampaigns that are InDemand and you see 90-95% of the late (InDemand) backers are Asians. If it goes wrong and the comments rage start you see how poor the English of these backers is. They read the news in Chinese or Korean and go to IGG understand no word nor try to translate the comments and click on the big pink button.
And you can even boost your scam, just back yourself at the beginning with 20k and you will get the attention of the news writer, they PM you and asking for money (some $100) to write a cool story. Ah and I forgot, as a creator on IGG you can use whatsoever identity and location, nobody will ask you for a passport, Ritot and others did it.

No venture capitalist who does any due diligence will give this man any money. Hence his reason for turning to crowd-funding.

It doesn't seem to make any difference, VC's appear to want to throw money at even the most obviously ridiculous and impractical schemes going.  You only need to look at the uBeam funding for proof of this.

edy: Google "Indiegogo InDemand". Essentially, the campaign never ends.

Campaign scam never ends!

It really is only a matter of time until IGG get their arses sued off for not performing due diligence on those allowed to fundraise on this platform.

I probably need a tin foil hat, but has anyone checked whether IGG and the people that run these scampaigns have any connection?

I'm all for free economy but as far as crowd-funding goes, to preserve the health of the system and make sure criminal elements don't run wild (which can be used as a slippery-slope to other illegal activities) I believe some sort of REGULATION will be needed.

Perhaps it will mirror some of the same regulations as with securities and investment. Some kind of risk assessment, or the need for explicit disclosure. Maybe INSURANCE to be purchased (good luck with that one... we will have insurance fraud) or a shared liability with the common carrier "crowd-funding site", or a combination of all of these.

Unfortunately, without some regulatory involvement, there will be more and more victims for years to come. It will ruin trust of this funding mechanism and spread doubt to other sites (Kickstarter and so on).

All you need to do is LEAK A STORY to CNN or some other news outlet that ISIS Terrorists are using IndieGogo to crowd-fund scams to fund terrorist activities and you will see them getting so much heat from the government in 5 seconds that it will turn the entire industry on it's head. Watch that one unravel!

Wow! My 3-year old son has hearing aids and I have done a lot of research to know what goes into one. That NanoPlug is so obviously impossible and impractical yet with such a deviously designed sales pitch and renderings that you know from the start it is a scam. Since when is it ok to have something lodged so far into the middle ear and user-inserted? And a nano-battery? Once again Star Trek fantasy. But a lot of people would honestly believe it.

As far as NEO neurophone goes, I am not so much bothered by it because it isn't really treating a medical condition and is more like those gem-stone crystal copper bracelet magnet pressure point "power of suggestion" devices. As long as he delivered the product to his backers, no matter how useless it may be, he has fulfilled his obligation. Any effect claimed would be placebo effect. To buy those "enhancement" devices you already have to believe in that type of stuff, so it will tend to work on you.

This also undermines the health professional community. Patients have to be able to trust their doctors and scientific research. When these scams start targeting medical issues and prey on a vulnerable group of people, it is a whole other level. That is another reason for some regulation.

By the way, Airing is up to $924,000... They raised another $25,000 in 1 day? After the campaign "closed" due to InDemand... or " InDeScam" more like it.

We need to start a CHANGE.ORG campaign.... I'm surprised there is no public rally against Indiegogo to change their policies regarding MEDICAL-CLAIM crowd-funding campaigns. It should be in their policies, that would at least stop the most despicable of scams. If they are not to completely remove it, there should at least be more rigorous proof before one gets approved to be crowd-funded.

i'm eager to see their quarterly report out in oct.
let's see if there's a functional prototype for demo then~

Well, they now have 2 years to spend the money before they report failure. FDA approval makes a nice cover for the scam. They estimate 9 months, but that seems wildly optimistic.  I predict many reports of delays in "testing" and "approval" before they break the bad news.

Got an update today :

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2015/9/21/airing-update-92115

They printed up vouchers to buy their products at discounted prices... if and when they will ever exist.

The interesting thing about these vouchers is that is ALL they are committed to deliver to deliver as a perk in the IGG campaign.

Exactly! They promised vouchers to provide Airings... with the assumption made by backers that one day Airings will be available so that the vouchers are good for something. Either way, from a legal perspective I don't think it even makes a difference. This "loophole" is not needed, due to the unfortunate fact that *even* campaigns that PROMISE YOU A PRODUCT don't have any issues skirting the law and running off with all the money. The voucher thing may have been a calculated "legal" move, or maybe just a way to appease backers with something to keep them happy that they have something in their hand while this entire sham continues to unfold.

There is at least a backer or two posting in the COMMENTS section which I will post here in case it gets deleted:

david.kovanen 16 days ago
Does anybody think it’s odd that we’ve heard nothing from Airring in more than eight weeks? I mean, ever since the money was released to Airing we have heard nothing at all. That strikes me is a bit odd in a few ways. Sometimes when we so much want something to be true we ignore the little red warning flags…

david.kovanen 16 days ago
Stephen A. Marsh founded a Company to develop micro fuel cell technology that, if perfected, would have replaced batteries in cell phones and laptops. The Company failed to develop the technology or generate a consistent stream of revenue. It subsequently decided to terminate all employees…and cease operations.

Marsh appears to have an established record of being a good promoter and has some legacy of failed start-ups. Google Stephen A. Marsh for interesting/worrisome reading. I’m worried.

david.kovanen 10 days ago
They don’t seem to be working on certification or anything else for that matter, as far as I can determine. FDA certification for this type of device typically is just a very few months. there is a fast track that CPAP manufacturers consistently get approval for.

My concern is that this project may just be a big scam. There seems to be very little happening…apparently no business licenses or full time staff or any prototypes of the micro blowers. The founder’s track record is not encouraging.

david.kovanen 10 days ago
Indegogo claims they have not done any vetting or due diligence, and they now refuse to provide a phone number or even a mailing address for Airing. A million dollars seems to have just gone into thin air with little accounting.

Nobody—not even me—can say with certainty that there is a problem here. But there is a lot that just doesn’t add up. My opinion is that we should be somewhat worried.

Should a company that took $1-Million fro. 10,000 people remain anonymous?

Update: Audio-only interview with Stephen Marsh:

http://www.massdevice.com/airing-the-story-behind-one-of-medtechs-most-successful-crowdfunding-campaignsdevicetalks-podcast/

And the short link:

http://bit.ly/1LN3v66

I heard snippets only, seems like only talking about how he got the idea, how successful the campaign and funding was... Nothing about any of the actual engineering or "hard questions". But if somebody has the time to listen and wants to summarize it (or knows how to feed it through a speech-to-text translator), please post a summary.

From his audio interview, near the beginning he says he developed the Airing as a consequence of trying to come up with better airflow for his Fuel Cell Power Chip....which was being developed when he was under the V.C. funding umbrella of now-defunct technology startup Integrated Fuel Cell Technologies, Inc. and Encite LLC. He also says he has a non-compliant brother (doesn't wear CPAP machine although he has Sleep Apnea).

So what happened with the Power Chip? I see his patents, just Google "Stephen Marsh Power Chip or Fuel Cell" and you'll notice a bunch of patents.... But are they good for anything? Is this like the Roohparvar Brothers patents which are just paperwork and really don't amount to much except lawsuit armament for future patent trolling? Any practical application? If anything actually came to fruition from his Fuel Cell company, wouldn't the company still exist and not have gone bankrupt and ended up in court (http://www.potteranderson.com/delawarecase-185.html)?

He talks a bunch about how he is an inventor and putting together "disparate" technologies. You have to wonder, how do "inventors" and "engineers" differ? One has to obey the laws of physics?    The other just has to come up with something and then hire the engineers to somehow make it work?

His "Aha!" moment may have been the answer to the question "How Do I Keep Sucking In Money Now That My Fuel Cell Company is Bankrupt". He invented a microblower system that has no working prototype at all, is just a concept with no characterization on the power utilization, efficiency or actual performance.... and as far as I can see there is no patent either (http://patents.justia.com/inventor/stephen-a-marsh). It is pure vapour at this point, yet he made A HUGE LEAP FORWARD and already created an APPLICATION for this non-existent micropump that it may not even be good for at all.

So the process he seems to be conveying in the interview is that...  he "got good feedback, was encouraged by all the people showed this" (who have no friggin' clue as to what is going on)... So he "decided to march ahead and launch the Airing" on IndieGogo. He was happy to accept this "donation" from users who would have the most stake in this thing working and also the most disadvantaged by current solutions. Hmm... did the backers really understand the "risk" and did they treat it as a "donation" or were they thinking they are actually buying Airings?

In the interview he is talking about how he came up with the design, and answering questions about how it is working (air flow, battery supply, pressures) like he somehow knows it with absolute certainty. That's complete B.S. because there is no actual prototype of the working hardware yet. He only created the rubber outside moulding design that fits on the nose, but with empty internals. He mentions the micropumps are electrostatic types. I am glad that he has such a clear concept of how it is supposed to be performing without having any idea how much power is required, and whether a tiny battery can do this work, and many other features.

By the way, the best way to listen to the speech is to throw something like this in the background:

http://tunein.com/radio/Limbik-Frequencies-s2225/

... While listening to the interview on Sound-cloud. It makes a good mix and keeps the 45 minute interview from boring you to death. At least the background instrumental ambient psychadelic goa trance music matches the state of delusion surrounding the entire campaign's promises.

He also talks about the funding... somewhere from 28 minutes onwards. Traditional funding (i.e. from major companies) comes with a lot of "baggage" or "Strings attached".    Yeah, it's called accountability Mr. Stephen Marsh..... He said he'd rather get the money from crowd-funding because it is directly from the people who are going to use it. He wanted people to support him on a "proof of concept" level and that there is "a lot more risk".

At around 35 minutes he talks more about "proof of concept" and being "half way through the market" and "FDA" and "pilot studies". Marsh says definitively NO, they are not there yet. He says he still needs to build an example or prototype, to characterize it and understand how much air is blowing and what pressure and determine that it actually works with airflow and pressure. He then says at that point the prototype can be put into the "appearance model" which is the rendered images you see on the website, that you stick in your nose, to see if it works. He says they have built the physical prototypes (the rubber things you stick in your nose) to show that it is comfortable to stick in your nose and wear at night are done. However, he says the micropumps have not been made and that he has to make sure it can actually fit in to the physical rubber model and does what it is supposed to.

I can guarantee you that most backers of the campaign probably thought they were way further along and that it was pretty much proven and just needed more engineering refinement and core manufacturing capital to set up production. I highly doubt they would have obtained over $1,000,000+ of "donations" if people knew it was all based on fluff of an idea that has not been proven at all and which is relying on pie-in-the-sky risks.

At about 40 minutes the interviewer asks about the ADDITIONAL monies that needed to be raised over and above the IndieGogo funds, since Marsh even admitted to needing close to $8,000,000 to build it. So Marsh reminds people about InDemand on IGG and to encourage more funding. He denies having raised other private money, except from friends and family. I guess he doesn't want to deal with the nuisance of accountability from a V.C. firm with all their lawyers and stuff.

I give him credit in the last 5 minutes for at least addressing the seriousness of Sleep Apnea. He says that until he makes this Airing product that people use whatever existing CPAP solutions exist, however uncomfortable they are. He says bringing the device to market from concept is a "Difficult, long and expensive process". He says Resmed (makers of CPAP machines) complain that awareness of Sleep Apnea is one of their biggest problems, and many people don't get diagnosed who have it. The Airing does raise awareness, that may be the only benefit of this entire campaign.

I hate being a pessimist here. It would be great if it worked. My beef with this campaign on IGG is that there was a deception from the inception of the campaign to give the appearance that it was a done deal EDIT:  it was more certain to be realized. Perhaps I didn't read between the lines well enough, but it sure sounded like the tech behind Airing was well ahead in development. If they had emphasized how rudimentary their work was, and how much more money they would need to actually meet their "perks" (which are just pieces of paper actually... nice loophole by the way), and really people understood how much of a leap they will need to take... I really don't think it would have received anywhere close to $1,000,000.

Let's keep Stephen A. Marsh accountable and continue to follow this very long journey and where things take us.

Latest update!

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2015/10/9/airing-progress-update-10915

Here is my analysis (text in red bold is my commentary):

Hi Airing Supporters,

As a company born of the crowd (you), we place enormous value in communicating our progress to everyone who has contributed to the development of the Airing prototype. (we want to make sure you don't start a mob attack on us so we are stringing you along for as long as we can).  Airing is a lean and mean team (there is really nobody working for us, we just wanted to steal your money) and we are determined to keep you updated on our progress while we execute our primary mission of meeting or exceeding our timeline to get this device into your hands.

We are delving into uncharted territory here and couldn’t be more excited. As far as we know, we are the first to develop a breakthrough technology from such an early stage with this large of a supportive community behind it. (we are the biggest ever scam of this type in IndieGogo history)     As you know, the technology in Airing has never been assembled in this way before. (because it is impossible)  The form factor of Airing–from the nosebuds to the micro-blowers–has never existed before. (because they are  not possible to do with today's technology and your relatively small $1 million in funding)    The price-point we’re targeting would have been laughable even a few months ago. (and it is still laughable)    Therefore, the ultimate existence of Airing may very well be seismically disruptive to the sleep apnea treatment industry. (it will be, because nobody believes it is possible and if you actually manage to pull it off it will truly be a miracle of biblical seismic proportions)

Given this anticipated disruption, it will not always be in Airing's or your best interest for us to publicly announce many of the trade secrets or specifics of our development. (we wish to not update you as much because you annoy us with silly questions like what we are doing with your money) As excited as we may be to share which engineers we work with, materials we incorporate, or equipment we consider utilizing at certain stages, doing so could breach contracts, impede our progress, and significantly delay Airing's release to the public. (and it would also show everyone that we are simply clueless as to what we are doing and actually have nothing to show)     That’s something we cannot risk.  (we want to make sure we have lots of time to hide the money away before anyone starts pressing us with too many questions as to how progress is going)

But you don’t need to worry. (we have your money safely in our off-shore bank accounts)   We intend to find the right balance between protecting our technology and sharing important progress with you. (we will keep using these excuses not to share too much information with you)  Today, we want to give you a few updates on the early stages of Airing's proof of concept prototype, straight from the keyboard of Airing inventor, Stephen Marsh:

 

As a direct result of Airing’s crowdfunding campaign, we have been introduced to a number of significant companies (we have the possibility of getting venture capitalist funding) and have engaged in several very promising technical discussions  (experts told us we are completely out of our mind) . These conversations have led us to an alternative approach to prototyping that should accelerate the proof of concept process. (alternative because the original microblower design is impossible)

We are now under contract with several specialty engineering firms, all of which are busy helping us facilitate prototyping the proof of concept micro-blower devices. (we are paying them a good buck to try to solve the impossible task we gave them)   We have also identified a set of materials and processes that will allow faster prototyping of the proof of concept micro-blower devices.  (we identified how to prototype a proof of concept of an actual device that still we have no idea will perform anywhere close to what is needed for this application)

We are evaluating the possibilities of several major equipment purchases that could give us more control of our schedule and timing. (that new Lambourghini in my driveway will help me get to my appointments on schedule and in good time).

We are eagerly expecting important results from some of our material processing experiments that will help us select which of the parallel paths we have designed is most appropriate to pursue.

We are continuing to work on many of the various aspects of the prototype in parallel (including micro-blower construction, nosebud and case design improvement, and sustainability options) to reach the testing phase as efficiently as possible.

Of course, the creation of a technology this new does not happen overnight. (or in 2 years when we promised delivery to our backers)    But we are making significant progress and remain on schedule. We will continue to keep you posted in the coming months.

Stay tuned for more. (but don't hold your breath because remember, we don't want to give you important details since our competition might steal it)  

 

Got an update today :

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2015/9/21/airing-update-92115

They printed up vouchers to buy their products at discounted prices... if and when they will ever exist.

Too expensive for them, the sent e-mails with a link to the voucher so you can print it by yourself. I assume you can print as many as you like, worthless anyway. 

A stripper?...

Self-help and advice books for inspiring Indiegogo campaigns?

New update today....

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2016/3/14/airing-progress-update

After almost a year and over $1,000,000, they have made one of these....

Their original "story" was:

Quote

we need your help to get it out of the lab and into your hands

Which implies they had already done this proof of concept work in the lab, and just needed funding to finalise a design and work towards mass production.
So it was just a concept design with no serious technical or scientific research behind it.  i.e. more IGG vaporware!

Yes this was one of the main critiques from the initial crowd-funding campaign, that they had absolutely no working prototype and just some cockamamie ideas that fed on the desperation of people with a horrible medical condition. Yet they were providing supporters with vouchers for a product that they haven't even proved is at all possible. That's why they went to IGG and not Kickstarter.

According to Airing, they fulfilled the campaign... They delivered vouchers to people. Correct? So technically their obligation is complete. People bought "vouchers" for free Airings, if and when they exist. See how clever Stephen Marsh and his group of experts is? Meanwhile they have $1,000,000+ to mess around with for a number of years to keep themselves busy and maybe invent something actually useful. Let's hope they don't keep stringing everyone along year after year, well past their original delivery deadline and hope for backer atrophy and apathy to shed people off their backs.

For the sake of these sufferers who spent their hard-earned cash on a promise of a miracle device, let's hope Stephen Marsh actually truly believes he is on to something and not a pathological liar who has even convinced himself it can be done and is self-deluded. Then again, all entrepreneurs and visionaries must have a certain element of this psychological attribute to persevere in the face of overwhelming odds... but if you are using other people's money to do it, you had better be more responsible.

The box contained a camera. Maybe they could lend their (spare) camera to Dr. Bob...


Jay_Diddy_B

For a data point, my CPAP is set for 10 inches H2O pressure, which is about 2.5 kilopascals if some random unit converter I found on the internet is to be trusted. I don't know if that's typical, high, or low. The pressure setting isn't arbitrary. It was determined in a sleep study to be the pressure necessary to be medically effective in pressurizing my fat head.

Thanks for the correction. You're probably right. I'm at work so I can't easily confirm the setting right now.

For a data point, my CPAP is set for 10 inches H2O pressure, which is about 2.5 kilopascals if some random unit converter I found on the internet is to be trusted. I don't know if that's typical, high, or low. The pressure setting isn't arbitrary. It was determined in a sleep study to be the pressure necessary to be medically effective in pressurizing my fat head.

Mines at 10cm too, and let's not forget the energy needed for the monitor system to ensure constant pressure during exhalation and inhalation.

I think I will stick with the light weight mask I use now, I don't fancy a couple of tubes with barbs hanging onto the inside of my nostrils all night 

Last year (I read the whole damn thread) someone mentioned about air blowing out your mouth, sleeping with your mouth closed is easy with practice even speaking with air blowing into your nose is a simple process once you have a few goes 

I see nothing but a dog and pony show to please backers. Why are the guys in the lab wearing disposable medical scrubs? No substantial evidence that anything is working. Even the Skarp laser razor, while horribly inefficient and fragile, did at least show hair being cut. Airing doesn't even show a micro blower (working or otherwise).

They have over $1 million and have been working on it for 8-9 months presumably. Patents should be pending. They can't show the world anything?

I don't understand why he has connected a 3KV electrophoresis supply to the apparatus under the microscope. Some kind of micromachine that runs on such a high voltage is not very likely.

That does look an awful lot like the EPS 3500 XL of which I did a teardown a few years ago.

You might almost think he borrowed someone else's bio lab and just hooked up likely looking bits of equipment to some random components he brought in...

Here is an image of the setup:



Yes... it does look like that electrophoresis supply:



And here's what I think was in that giant wooden crate from a message postings back:



Looks an aweful lot like this:  http://www.pva.net/products/Benchtop-Coating-Dispensing-System_116.htm

What the heck is that board?