Author Topic: The Airing  (Read 80289 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rs20

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2150
  • Country: au
Re: The Airing
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2015, 11:16:00 pm »
Didn't read the whole thread with a magnifying glass, but it seems some of the energy estimates mentioned are more than an order of magnitude off.

Standard CPAP mask machines start at 40 mm H2O, 4 cm, and go up to 25 cm, 250mm, at the normal limit. A pressure difference of 10 mm H2O, 1 cm, will do nothing.

Many CPAP users have sleep apnea problems due to being seriously obese, and they do need that much static pressure to open their airways.

Increase your energy estimates by a factor of 25, please.

Thanks, well spotted. A factor of 10 increase (10cm H20) is sufficient to completely debunk this concept; while whether the typical user requires 25cm is maybe pushing things too far, so I'd be tempted to just x10 for the sake of compelling debunking.
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2015, 06:25:13 pm »
5 days to go, almost $800,000 and the "creators" may have just harpooned their own campaign with the latest update!  |O   :palm: 

The update is now gone.... They DELETED IT!  :-// Apparently it had something to do with them actually needing multiple $millions to get the production started. They back-tracked on it after a hoard of negativity from backers. Here's what Airing had to say:

Quote
4 hours ago:
Last night we posed an updated development plan for Airing.  It apparently created confusion on some key aspects of the plan.  Thank you to a few of you who noted the ambiguity.  We are revising the plan to make it clearer and will repost soon.  Please stay tuned.

Here are some comments which hint at the latest update which Airing has since deleted, posted here before they disappear too:

Quote
Jeffrey Torres (16 hours ago):
I’m quite excited about this but I am concerned of how you will get the rest of the funding needed to make this a reality. According to your plans, it will take $7,500,000 to make this into production. So far, the funding has only been $800,000 with only 5 days left. Where will the remaining $6,800,000 come from? If you don’t get this funding what happens to the perks? Thank you.


A user by the name of "fishandchimps" is lambasting them repeatedly:

Quote
fishandchimps (15 hours ago):
I’m also concerned and compelled to ask why your initial pitch was for $100,000 when you knew you’d need $7-8 million to have a chance of completion ?!
The way things work here at Indiegogo every single backer will be on the hook for their ‘contribution’ after the 5 days remaining with no recourse or assistance from IGG regardless of what you do from that point on.
Seems a bit duplicitous not to mention a FAR greater risk for us all given this new information ?
Please address ASAP.

The next comment from another concerned backer:

Quote
DreamSeeker (10 hours ago):
Your recent update was very concerning and puts your integrity in question.

Your update stated, “prove out our calculations that they can blow the right amount of air at the right pressures … $500K to $1M” with $7.5M to get to production.

All I’ve read so far implied the device was proven to work and you need “help to get it off the drawing board and into [our] hands” with $100K “enough money to make Airing happen”. I would not have contributed towards $500K – $1M to prove it works.

and then...

Quote
DreamSeeker (10 hours ago):
It seems additionally questionable that you removed the recent update with no comment about the plan:
1. Prototyping the micro-blowers: prove out our calculations that they can blow the right amount of air at the right pressures. Est. cost: $500K to $1M (6-9 months).
2. Testing the device: Cost: up to $500K (2-4 months).
3. Manufacturing testing: prove that the micro-blowers can be manufactured using the roll to roll process. Est. cost: $2M to $4M in equipment and $2M in labor (up to 12 months).

Then "fishandchimps" posts another 2 comments, even more inflamed... all because Airing posted some kind of Development Plan which showed everyone their true colors and that what is really needed to bring this device to market may be more than a miracle, not just oodles of money being thrown at the problem.

Quote
fishandchimps (7 hours ago):
I asked IGG support to re-evaluate the original “pitch” proposal vs. the now redacted Update #9 with its much more detailed disclosures to see if the apparent discrepancies with this campaign are still in keeping with their “Trust and Safety” guidelines ?
Rereading the original story with a now jaundiced eye seems to indicate the whole project is built upon some very spurious and misleading details given the revelations offered in that now missing “update”.
Caveat emptor.

Then again...

Quote
fishandchimps (3 hours ago):
Given that only 5 of your current 8128 backers expressed even marginal concerns over the hitherto unpublished details provided in that now redacted ‘update’, it appears you needn’t worry too much about offering us any strong due diligence !
I’m guessing the general lack of suspicion mostly reflects our overall desperation for an effective and comfortable CPAP substitute ?
Is there any supporting evidence whatsoever that this venture is more than just a pipe dream theory at this juncture ?

Another backer then chimes in with his thoughts on the campaign.....

Quote
Matthew Chan (2 hours ago):
Re-reading the campaign, they did say the crowdfunding was meant to raise funds for prototyping and the original timeline posted does seems to jive with a hyperoptimistic reading of now-redacted detailed timeline. With that said, it’s deceitful to withhold the information regarding the need for millions of dollars of additional funding to actually get the product manufactured. There is no way this product will get to production without venture capital, contrary to what the campaign text says.

Matthew Chan (2 hours ago):
I still would have contributed even if they had been honest about the cost. I.e. The message should have been something like “We need $10 million to take this from concept to reality, and we want to crowdfund $100k to help us obtain the resources to build some proof-of-concept prototypes which we will then use to seek venture capital or acquisition by big pharma.”

Back to the latest 2 comments as of the time of this posting... user "fishandchimps" is on a rampage and won't back down!  :box:

Quote
fishandchimps (1 hour ago):
I’d be interested in any sort of broad explanation of how you propose “Airing” would work to deliver even 1/2 liter of air at 20cm H2O in the 4-5 or so seconds every single breath takes ?
The housing looks to have a total volume of about 15 – 20cc.
Is it your position that you’ll be able to generate ~ 40 times that volume, at pressure, in those few seconds ?
Please educate us.

fishandchimps (1 hour ago):
I NEED this thing to work BUT rehashing well known details offered in your initial story regarding what conventional CPAP’s can actually do is in no way an indication of anything ‘Airing’ has been demonstrated to be capable of ?!
This entire venture sounded too good to be true…
Is there anything at all you can cite that we can look to for some sort of independent verification of your claims ?
R U aware that the Mass. AG’s office has been at the forefront of crowd sourcing investigations ?


Would be nice to see the original UPDATE that spawned this mess. But Airing LLC deserves it and finally some backers are starting to fight back for some real answers. Let's hope this entire thing crashes in the next 5 days. However, chances are IndieGoGo wants their cut of the $800,000 and will be given some lame excuse by Airing to let them ride on forward, and all these people will lose their money over the next few years as this entire thing blows up in smoke.

Since MOST backers don't seem to have any second thoughts of giving Airing LLC their money, I am sure they will still walk away with a nice chunk of cash. The only way to get this campaign deleted is for IndieGoGo to step in at this point and reverse all money from backers. Otherwise, the only recourse is for as many backers to be notified or follow-up and express some doubt to ask for a refund before the campaign closes in 5 days.... Highly unlikely.

Glad to see some critical thinking and questioning finally going public on this ludicrous campaign... with only 5 days to go! If they had only kept their mouth shut... :-DD
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 06:37:12 pm by edy »
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline hamster_nz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2029
  • Country: nz
Re: The Airing
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2015, 07:37:48 pm »
Maybe it is a valid research project.

1. Find a valid 'need' for a medical product,

2. Propose an attractive but unworkable solution on a crowd-funding site.

3. Close it the funding down just before it is accepted

4. Write paper on "how crowdfunding sites encourage snake-oil products for desperate sufferers of medical issues".

5. Publish / profit?

Or maybe it is cheap market research?
Gaze not into the abyss, lest you become recognized as an abyss domain expert, and they expect you keep gazing into the damn thing.
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2015, 10:38:50 pm »
Maybe it is a valid research project.

1. Find a valid 'need' for a medical product,
2. Propose an attractive but unworkable solution on a crowd-funding site.
3. Close it the funding down just before it is accepted
4. Write paper on "how crowdfunding sites encourage snake-oil products for desperate sufferers of medical issues".
5. Publish / profit?

Or maybe it is cheap market research?

Another research I see here is how IndieGoGo can scam $800,000 from people and all the media seems to do is regurgitate the same press kit around the world without anyone actually making any comment about it. Sad state of affairs.



All I know is, the campaign comments page is finally getting exciting to watch!   :-+   

Whatever ends up happening, it will be very entertaining to read as things have really heated up. Where was everybody for the past month? Why did they finally come out of the woodworks with only 5 days to go? Only explanation was that UPDATE on funding that Airing put out where they put their foot in their mouth and pissed off a bunch of backers! Let's keep watching this one...

 :box:

Quote
Nick Martin
4 hours ago
$7.5Mil needed to complete the Project? Requesting $100k seems like a splash in a very deep pool! The new timeframe given means the estimated delivery date is way off what was initially promised. This seems like a ‘scam’ from the start. I use the term ‘scam’ with some trepidation as I think it’s more misleading than any thing else.

If it turns out that the new timing projections given & the new costing ($7.5MILLION!) predictions are true I think that Creators are ‘sick’ – it’s worrying that the Update has disappeared? – only time will tell…


Quote
fishandchimps
3 hours ago
Your video is duplicitous at best. You show nothing but an empty housing.
Admittedly I’m not the sharpest awl in the tool box. For all the world I was convinced you were demonstrating a working prototype not a vacant vessel with little but hope for functioning ‘innards’.
The patients depicted wearing the “device” as well as the narrative serve little but to add to the deception.
Kickstarter guidelines now forbid depictions of non working prototypes.
Indiegogo…not so much.
Shame on you both.


Quote
tpolasek
2 hours ago
I too thought that the micro blowers had been proven in cooling computer chips. They are the key to the product. I give the benefit of the doubt to the team that they are serious, capable and committed. These are just missteps in crowd funding.

Two questions for the Airing.
1. How confident are you that the blowers will work? What work has been done? CAD design? Computer simulation? Working prototype?
2. How confident are you that the needed additional funding can be raised?
Thank you!


You'd think Airing would be on top of this fast and issue a "clarified" update but nothing... Are they going to their lawyers to try and figure out how to best word things? I would assume they would just issue a statement already to tone these comments down before more people start catching on.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 10:48:10 pm by edy »
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline rs20

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2150
  • Country: au
Re: The Airing
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2015, 11:47:10 pm »
Don't worry, Airing have cleared everything up:

Quote from: Airing
Answer regarding Airing device and treatment pressure: Can Airing produce as much air pressure as a typical CPAP machine?

The pressure generated by the typical CPAP machine ranges from 1 to 20 centimeters of water (cmH20), known as the treatment number. A doctor or sleep technician tests the patient to determine the appropriate treatment number. The Airing device has been designed to generate the full range of treatment pressures up to and in excess of a treatment number of 20.

Ironically, this just digs them into a deeper hole! Now they're effectively promising 20cm of H2O, which one can trivially prove is impossible for a whole night in such a small package!
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2015, 12:07:30 am »
If IndieGogo doesn't stop this campaign, well they are no better than the scammers. People should sue IndieGogo for not abiding by their own rules. Wait. Do they have any rules? Do they ever enforce them? and did Airing violate them? That's what some backers are trying to prove.
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline rs20

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2150
  • Country: au
Re: The Airing
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2015, 12:59:56 am »
Note that everything below is focussed on figuring out the energy budget, which doesn't look like such a compelling way of debunking this, although it might become one if we can nail down some efficiency figures. But edy's points about one way valves and so on (that are a bit beyond me tbh) and mikerj's point that the air will just escape through the mouth (unless the snoring happens north of the mouth?) still hold.

Increase your energy estimates by a factor of 25, please.

Thanks, well spotted. A factor of 10 increase (10cm H20) is sufficient to completely debunk this concept; while whether the typical user requires 25cm is maybe pushing things too far, so I'd be tempted to just x10 for the sake of compelling debunking.

Actually, not so fast. I just realised that mm H2O was just a mistype; 10cm H2O is 9.8 millibar, right? So my earlier calculation was actually liberal -- assuming 100% efficiencies everywhere gives a battery volume of 1.6cc (google calc link). 3.2cc for the promised 20cm H2O case. So it's not as if these blowers need to be an impossible 1000% efficient to work, 100% is enough. So debunking this purely on theoretical energy required is no good, you have to presuppose a certain degree of inefficiency in the blowers to debunk it. Now of course, microblowers are going to be horrendously inefficient; I don't think this project will work, but can we put a figure on those inefficiencies?

I think we can calculate work needed to move that volume of air (regardless of pressure) since that is a critical parameter. Then the actual pressure the blower can produce when it is obstructed is going to be based on the design of the blower construction, how "leaky" it is when faced with a blockage.... we will then have to show it can sustain 6-20mm Aq. But the first part is simply moving a volume of air assuming 100% perfect mechanical driving force to sustain breathing.

This isn't trivial; there's no simple lower bound on how much energy it takes to move a volume of air a certain distance (in the same way that a frictionless car will move forever with in a slight push, or the planets orbiting the sun endlessly*). However, getting that car (or volume of air) to move a certain distance, at a certain speed, while overcoming a certain amount of friction does give a certain amount of energy required, but that's much more involved to complicate with so many variables. But in an electronic analogy, these things correspond to inductance and resistance; and I think air is light enough that the simple pressure*flow calculation will dominate (or, put another way, the pressure term there will be dominated by the simple static pressure, not resistance in the airways or the inertia of the air).

* Disclaimer: there will be an end.

 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2015, 01:55:40 am »
I would like to see an energy estimate too. Let's assume a device (air pump) that is 100% efficient and no back-flow leakage. We are trying to push air at a certain rate (the amount needed by inhalation to fill a lung in a certain amount of time) while at the same time able to create enough pressure in a smaller volume (nasopharynx) during obstructive stage to lift up the tissue flap.

To simplify this, we can imagine a piston compressing a cylindrical volume of air. There is a "flap" about a fifth of the way in which requires that pressure in the first part of the cylinder (nasopharynx) be raised by 10-20 cm H2O before the flap opens and allows the air to blow into the second part of the chamber (lung).

So during the first part you are increasing pressure but no air is actually moving. Compression only. Then flap opens and pressure either remains the same or may drop a bit (assuming flap of tissue has some initial stickiness, takes more pressure to open it than to maintain it once open). I intuitively feel like some integration of the area under this pressure curve gives us something useful.

Anyways, all along the other condition of this chart graph of pressure is that through this cycle enough air has actually moved into the lung to be a normal sized breath. There has to be a way to calculate the amount of work required to pressurize the initial volume of air (nasopharynx part of cylinder) and then once flap opens, the work needed to keep pumping air at a sufficient rate to maintain the pressure in the first part of the cylinder while some leaks through the flap and fills the second part of the cylinder.

To complicate matters, the second part also can suck in air (so imagine a piston on the other side of the cylinder drawing air in or expanding the second part). Since the lung muscles pull open the rib cage and effectively increase the volume, like a syringe drawing up or sucking in air as well. Lungs do much of the work. The Airing is mostly an "assist" but it has to blow enough not to just pressure initially but sustain enough flow pressure to maintain patency of the tissue flap during the remainder of the inhalation. And the air pumps and nasal prongs have to be sufficiently sealed to allow pressurization with loss from leakage or pump/blower inefficiency to do it, and sustain it.

It is precisely because it may be a difficult system to calculate that it hasn't been debunked. But put a few HVAC and thermodynamics people on it and I'm sure we'll have answers quickly.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 02:01:57 am by edy »
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3579
  • Country: us
Re: The Airing
« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2015, 02:05:02 am »
If IndieGogo doesn't stop this campaign, well they are no better than the scammers. People should sue IndieGogo for not abiding by their own rules. Wait. Do they have any rules? Do they ever enforce them? and did Airing violate them? That's what some backers are trying to prove.

I'm afraid crowdfunding, and Indiegogo in particular has peaked.  If it was a stock, I would short it.  It's scams like these that I think are responsible.  I'll bet in a few more years crowdfunding will no longer exist - at least in its current form.
 

Offline rs20

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2150
  • Country: au
Re: The Airing
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2015, 03:36:18 am »
I'm afraid crowdfunding, and Indiegogo in particular has peaked.  If it was a stock, I would short it.  It's scams like these that I think are responsible.  I'll bet in a few more years crowdfunding will no longer exist - at least in its current form.

Does the same go for the mass media that so blindly advertised the scam? I wonder if the reporters involved are actually incentivized at all to fact-check. I mean, evidently they're not; but they're largely to blame if we assume that the general public is overly gullible.

You do raise a good point; I'm absolutely fascinated to see how crowdfunding's reputation develops over the next few years as Solar Roadways and Airing slowly fade from the scene. Will the general public form a healthy sense of caveat emptor and think about taking these claims with a grain of salt (hell, maybe even try googling for a bit), or will they just do a 180 and switch to completely distrusting all crowdfunding sites? Or maybe the average person won't even notice, and still be fresh for the great indiegogo scam of 2020? It's interesting to note that "only" 50,000 people funded Solar Roadways, "only" 8,000 people have funded Airing. That's a tiny fraction of even the US's population that's actually invested in the outcome; it's probably a tiny fraction of the people that saw the "isn't crowdfunding amazing" headlines. 

I'm not sure what my point is here, other than "there's lots more gullible fish in the sea"...
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2015, 04:08:39 am »
I think crowd-funding will continue. Just not enough people affected to stop the influx of more players. Perhaps laws will be formed to at least increase accountability and reduce abuse of the system.
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 895
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: The Airing
« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2015, 10:47:28 am »
For the record, here is the full text from the deleted update

Quote
Expanded Airing Development Plan and Goals
Given your tremendous response and your wonderful, and often moving, notes of support, we thought you would appreciate more details about our development plan and how you can help.
Your participation at any level can benefit tens of millions of people affected by sleep apnea.
Plan overview:
The development program will require a range of expertise, including electrical, mechanical, software engineering and materials science. Necessary materials and services include 3D printing, CAD software, custom film, metallization and polymer processing.
Four stages of development:
1. Prototyping the micro-blowers: prove out our calculations that they can blow the right amount of air at the right pressures. Estimated cost: $500,000 to $1,000,000 (6-9 months).
2. Testing the device: requires integrating the micro-blowers into the Airing package for sleep tests and measurement of efficacy. Cost: up to $500,000 (2-4 months).
3. Manufacturing testing: prove that the micro-blowers can be manufactured using the roll to roll process. This will require the design of a complete manufacturing process flow. At this time we will also explore viable recycling options. This phase will require the purchase, assembly and testing of a bench scale prototype line to produce the micro-blower component of the Airing device. Estimated cost: $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 in equipment and $2,000,000 in labor (up to 12 months).
4. Scaling: mass manufacturing based on the results of the previous phases.
Some stages could proceed in parallel. Clinical trials and FDA clearance could occur while gearing up manufacturing. The greater the support, the faster and more effectively we can implement the development program.
Stretch goals and corresponding progress:
$1,000,000:  Substantially complete Stage 1 and begin parallel work on Stage 2.
$1,500,000:  Substantially complete Stages 1 and 2 and begin work on Stage 3.
$2,000,000: Extend work deeper into Stage 3.
These estimates of time and cost are based on input from experienced individuals and institutions from the relevant fields.
As is common in crowdfunding, we are trying to raise as much as we can towards our mission. Support from contributors like you also reinforces the viability of Airing to future large investors.
And that’s what this crowdfunding campaign is all about: to help make Airing happen.
Please help us by contributing what you can and by spreading the word to those you know who care about sleep apnea.
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2015, 04:34:22 pm »
@Kean: Thanks so much for posting that deleted update (how did you find it? was there a cache somewhere or did a backer copy it while it was still up?).


Now I understand why so many people are upset. They deleted the update 2 days ago, but have not posted their promised "clarification" and there are 63 hours to go. As well, money is still coming in as they are at around $807,095 now. Those funds appear to be the bare minimum to simply fund construction of a micro-blower prototype and see if it will actually blow enough air at the pressures they want. How did they come up with a $3/Airing figure? They do not even know if they can manufacture it.

They are WAY WAY WAY over-promising something that nobody seems to have any clue about actually working, and after $1,000,000 spent they will likely find it can't be done. Much like that young lady who did that Ultra-Sonic charging (uBeam: http://ubeam.com/ ). Didn't they also get $750k in funding and have nothing? Wait, I think they took in $10 million in venture capitalist funding.

Conclusion: They have no idea what they are doing and if what they are proposing even works, but have no problem using a crowd-funding site (and poorly regulated one) like IndieGoGo to prey on desperation from medical patients who suffer from this horrible condition.
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2015, 07:53:14 pm »
Backer "fishandchimps" is continuing to post comments but he's the only one. Seems the rest don't check the campaign page once they contribute. New backers wouldn't necessarily know what transpired unless they dig deeper into the older comments:

Quote
fishandchimps
3 hours ago
Would I be correct in assuming that the promised “update” to your recently retracted ‘updated business plan’ won’t be forthcoming till AFTER this campaign closes and any chance for backers to amend their pledges or ask for refunds based on any new information you provide expires…in 63 hours ?

I hate to be ‘that guy’ but it appears I’m the only person concerned with doing even the bare minimal due diligence before abandoning the $800,000 + raised here, to blind faith.
Thanks

Somebody should email this user the deleted campaign update so it can be posted in the comment area, where it may not be as easy to remove.

ADDED:

Quote
As is common in crowdfunding, we are trying to raise as much as we can towards our mission. Support from contributors like you also reinforces the viability of Airing to future large investors.

So the idea is to prove that there is a demand for this product. Stephen Marsh then goes to "Large Venture Capitalist Investor X" and shows them how many people are looking to buy this thing, helping to prove a demand and so he can raise another few million from the corporate investors. This is sounding so much like uBeam, it's like they took a page out of that book to create Airing. Except uBeam, as far as I know, did not crowd-fund anything. They just went straight to investors and raised over $10 million.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2015, 11:34:25 pm by edy »
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #64 on: July 14, 2015, 12:57:02 pm »
User "fishandchimps" continues his rampage and will likely do so until the end of the campaign in about 43 hours. Meanwhile, Airing is silent and despite the rampage have increased to $812,148:

Quote
fishandchimps
11 minutes ago
I sent an email to GE Global Reseach’s legal dept. asking them to at least have a look see here ?
Ideally before your campaign ends.
No response from IGG. Again not a big surprise, they get their cut even before you get yours. It’s a lot of money.
I hope my healthy skepticism is misplaced but…..?
A few simple answers would send me packing.

fishandchimps
1 hour ago
It also appears the patented GE technology involved is dependent on AC current so some sort of power converter is required to run it from a DC source ?
This may have some bearing on why repeated questions and requests about rechargeable units instead of disposable “Airings” seemingly won’t be addressed here ?
It’s kinda moot though since it appears even GE hasn’t gotten to the nano levels of the proposed mechanisms assigned to these 2017 “Airing” units ?
Any comments for clarity ?
I’ll wait.

fishandchimps
3 hours ago
No answers – No surprise. Other than when you’re up-selling or holding contests to increase your sales your communication skills are sorely wanting.
Very typical of scam campaigns though usually not before final closing.
If I Google “dual jet piezo cooling fans” I find it is a recently developed GE proprietary product only available thru licensing from them ?
This brings about many other questions relative to this project.
I’m interested if anyone else is at all curious about any of this ?
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #65 on: July 14, 2015, 04:35:12 pm »
Very Odd....  ???  Here's Airing's 10th Update (after promising to clarify their screwed up 9th update that upset many people):

Quote
A Strong Finish
With the encouragement and support of the people like you who so personally want to see the Airing device succeed, we are achieving the funding necessary for the development of the micro-blower prototype.  If we can stretch to reach the $1 to $1.5 million level, we could really accelerate the development of the Airing.  Help us, and yourselves, by creating a strong finish to the campaign.


Ok.... So by some miracle, in the last few hours they managed to jump from $812,148 to $830,335! There is a mad rush near the end of this campaign. 38 hours left and Airing is trying to suck up as much money as possible, and they are succeeding, despite constant posts by "fishandchimps" and others who are trying to warn people.   :box:

All I can say is....  :wtf:


YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 895
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: The Airing
« Reply #66 on: July 14, 2015, 04:50:47 pm »
@Kean: Thanks so much for posting that deleted update (how did you find it? was there a cache somewhere or did a backer copy it while it was still up?).
I got it from a (deleted) email from IGG.
If you're logged in to IGG, you can "follow" any project and you'll receive announcements via email, even if you don't back the project, and even after the funding finishes.
Somewhat easier (& cheaper) than the KS $1 backer trick.  But you still cant post comments (they'd probably get deleted anyway...)
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #67 on: July 14, 2015, 05:38:07 pm »
@Kean: Thanks so much for posting that deleted update (how did you find it? was there a cache somewhere or did a backer copy it while it was still up?).
I got it from a (deleted) email from IGG.
If you're logged in to IGG, you can "follow" any project and you'll receive announcements via email, even if you don't back the project, and even after the funding finishes.
Somewhat easier (& cheaper) than the KS $1 backer trick.  But you still cant post comments (they'd probably get deleted anyway...)


Thanks. I logged in to Indiegogo and looking for a "favorites" button or "follow" but can't seem to figure out how to follow a campaign.  |O  Must be something obvious I'm overlooking. Any help would be appeciated! Thanks!
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #68 on: July 14, 2015, 08:58:15 pm »
Now at $843,171.... 34 hours left to go. Who in their right mind is still backing this campaign?  :palm: Will they beat $860k? $880k? At this rate they may even hit the $900k mark. Meanwhile, backers are starting to post their anger with no word from Airing.... Like you couldn't see this coming a mile away.

Imagine they DIDN'T post their 9th update (which was deleted)? Would anyone have bothered to comment? Airing nearing the finish line... But stumbled on a stupid update they should't have posted, finally getting some well-deserved heat from backers, but it's too late. They coast through winning the vast majority of money.

Celia has this to say:

Quote
Celia
9 minutes ago
each and every update pushes me to a higher level of disgust and disbelief.

how can a campaign over 800 percent “over” funded be asking for a strong finish?

This is just not right.

No answers to legitimate questions from people who REALLY need this, just more funding “options” and request for funds.

i personally just put in enough to be a supporter for future options. I feel quite badly for anyone who really truly would need this seemingly vaporware object.

And then another by this user (he probably meant "You Are not Alone..."):

Quote
ihope4
1 hour ago
You are not along “fish and chimps”. I am not happy with the last retracted proposal and today they are upping the anti. Looks like we’re out in the cold with cumbersome masks until GE or someone else makes a new product.


According to the IndieGogo fee page, they charge 4% for campaigns that reach their goal and another 3-5% for credit card processing. So IndieGogo could stand to make $32,000 on this, and the credit card companies another $24,000 - $40,000.

Watching the past 24 hours of this campaign is hilarious....  :-DD

User "fishandchimps" is back at it, after having been possible "BLOCKED" he is now under a new account:

Quote
foamarium
17 minutes ago
Here’s a very telling tidbit of interest for all.
I had to “donate” another $1 with a friend’s account because my Fish and Chimps comments have been completely blocked from posting further on this !!!!!
Big red letters “An unknown error has occurred”
Never happened before.
What a hoot ! I must be hitting some nerves ?
Please people….at least look a bit deeper here yourselves.
The more I look this the less convinced I am and the “creator’s” mounting abuses don’t bode well for the future.


foamarium
41 minutes ago
I need something like this to be true but the more I look into things the more it’s shaping up to be a pie in the sky !
I’m astounded people can be so casual about handing over close to $1M based on a few paragraphs, a video and a few pics of an empty shell attached to someone’s nose ?!
Reread this pitch and at least do a minimum due diligence. It’s nuts !
I reduced my “pledge” to the $1 it merits and can wait the extra few months if things turn out to be true.
Ask questions !
« Last Edit: July 14, 2015, 11:57:36 pm by edy »
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 895
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: The Airing
« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2015, 01:49:13 am »
Thanks. I logged in to Indiegogo and looking for a "favorites" button or "follow" but can't seem to figure out how to follow a campaign.  |O  Must be something obvious I'm overlooking. Any help would be appeciated! Thanks!
In the web page, look for the heart shaped icon on the left of the title video (sometimes I've seen it below the video).  The icon hould say Follow under it.  Similarly on mobile apps there is a heart shaped button on each campaign page (verified in iPhone app).
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2015, 02:34:09 am »
Thanks. I logged in to Indiegogo and looking for a "favorites" button or "follow" but can't seem to figure out how to follow a campaign.  |O  Must be something obvious I'm overlooking. Any help would be appeciated! Thanks!
In the web page, look for the heart shaped icon on the left of the title video (sometimes I've seen it below the video).  The icon hould say Follow under it.  Similarly on mobile apps there is a heart shaped button on each campaign page (verified in iPhone app).

Thanks. I've looked and looked but can't find a Heart. See attached screenshot. That's on my phone browser, and also in Google Chrome. Maybe I need to download the actual app? And I'm logged in on the website and still no heart icon. I'll check out the app.
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2015, 02:46:16 am »
That's funny, on my iPhone it shows the heart in the Safari browser! I wonder if it has to do with mobile browser mode (mobile or desktop) or the actual phone brand.

Yup its browser... I set my phone back to mobile mode and shows heart now. Go figure! What an oddity... Guess they don't want desktop users to heart things.
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1937
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: The Airing
« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2015, 12:40:49 pm »
No surprise, a few of the posts from "fishandchimps" and "foamarium" have been deleted from the campaign page. I wish I had copied all of them here before they were removed, like I did the other ones above!

Apparently, they said they received a message from Indiegogo that that the comments were abusive in nature and therefore was not allowed to post from the "fishandchimps" account. So they used "foamarium" to post and explain what happened, and that was deleted as well.

So I tried to send the following message to user "foamarium" through Indiegogo:

Quote
I have been following your posts and completely agree with you. Now I noticed many of your comments have been removed. I've been logging this campaign and the deletion of comments and wanted to hear more of your story to post in a blog/forum. If you can share what happened, I'd like to know. Thanks!

And Indiegogo returned an error message as follows:

Quote
You can only send messages to people that you're connected to through a campaign.

So there is really no way to contact other backers if you are not "in" on the same campaign.

This has all been very enlightening. Being new to crowd-funding I have now learned many valuable lessons. Unless you are constantly viewing comments and logging them, you cannot trust any interaction on that site. It rates at -1 out of 10 in my books.

If Airing had addressed the comments (many of which were tame initially) from their backers with the same diligence and promptness as asking for additional money, none of this would happen. The questions were valid and quite polite initially. What happens when you have over $800,000 in backing, post a shockingly different timeline for an update and retract it, and then ignore your backers asking you legitimate questions is you get people angry. Deleting them all and ignoring things in the last few days of the campaign while Indiegogo and Airing censor things is not a good model for a community-built system and they will pay for it one way or another. Karma is a bitch!

Indiegogo's "Trust & Safety" position is a complete JOKE.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2015, 12:57:10 pm by edy »
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline Kean

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 895
  • Country: au
  • Embedded systems & IT consultant
    • Kean Electronics
Re: The Airing
« Reply #73 on: July 15, 2015, 02:11:03 pm »
I tried to send fishandchimps a message via IGG because we both backed another failed IGG campaign (BE Maker), but I couldn't do it either and got the same error.  I'm guessing only backers and campaign creators can contact each other - yet another way to keep the masses in-line!
 

Offline Kalidor

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 113
  • Country: ch
Re: The Airing
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2015, 03:30:47 pm »
I tried to send fishandchimps a message via IGG because we both backed another failed IGG campaign (BE Maker), but I couldn't do it either and got the same error.  I'm guessing only backers and campaign creators can contact each other - yet another way to keep the masses in-line!

You are right, to PM a IGG user both have to back the same campaign. And I found a big campaign with only one comment from the creator, maybe he can block the comments section or he has a script that deletes new comments. See https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/skully-ar-1-the-world-s-smartest-motorcycle-helmet/x/10280792#/comments
The hole IGG platform is designed to maximize the income, after a campaign is funded it switches to "ever funding" now called "InDemand". The page looks like a web shop and I found many shitty news sites reporting about the newest invention and how cool it is ending the story with you can buy it on IGG. Yes BUY. Looking on the usernames and profiles on some scampaigns that are InDemand and you see 90-95% of the late (InDemand) backers are Asians. If it goes wrong and the comments rage start you see how poor the English of these backers is. They read the news in Chinese or Korean and go to IGG understand no word nor try to translate the comments and click on the big pink button.
And you can even boost your scam, just back yourself at the beginning with 20k and you will get the attention of the news writer, they PM you and asking for money (some $100) to write a cool story. Ah and I forgot, as a creator on IGG you can use whatsoever identity and location, nobody will ask you for a passport, Ritot and others did it.
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf