Author Topic: Triton Artificial Gills  (Read 63287 times)

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Offline sswift

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Triton Artificial Gills
« on: March 19, 2016, 08:23:24 am »
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-first-artificial-gills-re-breather#/

This would be an awesome product... if it weren't physically impossible to extract that much oxygen from the water through filtering.  That would require over 200L of water to pass through the gills per minute even if they have designed a filter that can separate oxygen from seawater.

Analysis here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/4av9xw/triton_allows_you_to_breathe_underwater_100k_in/d13so58

Still, I wonder if it might be one day possible to create a product like this using electrolysis and a large battery pack strapped to your back.  If you used a closed-circuit system like a rebreather, perhaps it could be made to work?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebreather

The problem with electrolysis, besides it likely being extremely difficult to do on seawater, is that it produces pure oxygen - which is poisonous.  But with a closed system you could recycle the CO2 to bring the concentration down to a safe level.

But that article says around 4L per minute of oxygen is required for someone exercising.  I assume you get 1L of oxygen per 1L of water?  Or is it 1/2?  Either way, seems like something that maybe you could achieve in a device that straps to your back and is the size of the rebreather in the Wikipedia article.

The question though is how much power you'd need and if present battery technology would be capable of sustaining it for any period of time.  I believe those rebreathers can last for quite a long time as I'm pretty sure I've heard of cave divers using them and staying under for a day or more, so that would be the metric to beat.

And speaking of rebreathers, I just noticed their campaign says "re-breather" in the title, but it doesn't appear to be designed to store and return any of the air you exhale and there are tons of bubbles in the photos.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 08:25:15 am by sswift »
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2016, 08:25:54 am »
It has a fishy smell.  :-X :-X :-X

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline kwass

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2016, 12:48:41 pm »
My take on this is that it's not an "artificial gill" at all but simply a battery powered atmospheric air compressor that requires you to surface every minute or so.  It will compress a few litters of air into it's storage tank and allow you to breath a few times under water before you repeat the process.

It's not a bad idea I think, but it should be honestly advertised.

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Offline m98

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2016, 03:44:10 pm »
They only talk about oxygen, so they basically don't even have any idea of diving or high pressure physiology.
 

Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2016, 07:49:24 pm »
It looks like an Airing with even more bullshit extended out the side....

AIRING:




TRITON:



Same issues though... You have to throw out physics to make either of them actually work, and they have raised oodles of money. No working prototype. Not even a hint of how it may even work, and the type of power system required. These are what I like to call in the "STAR TREK" Category of scams... That is, it will only exist in the year 2400:

« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 07:55:40 pm by edy »
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2016, 04:23:39 pm »
People in the comments asking about this article
http://www.deepseanews.com/2014/01/triton-not-dive-or-dive-not-there-is-no-triton/
..and still every 10 min a new sucker!  :palm:
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2016, 06:15:50 am »
The battery is 30 times smaller and recharges 1000 times faster than a Lithium battery  :wtf:  :bullshit:  :wtf:  :bullshit:

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Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2016, 06:44:47 am »
https://youtu.be/obqxzmmv7uM

The video is all cut up. But especially noticed the end when he's on his back at 1:40..... he stays at the bottom when he stops swimming while wearing no diving weights and not anywhere deep enough for buoyancy loss..... which means his lungs are almost empty lol

Also see the team listing.... industrial designer, "entrepreneur", marketing....... no engineer  :palm:
 

Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2016, 03:49:00 pm »
IndieGogo/Flexible Funding = They can take your money no matter whether they meet goal or not.

And they have met goal, and they have (as of this post) around $340,000... and the possible consequences or criminal liabilities are ZERO. Of course, we are all making the assumption that they are simply scamming the public. To play Devil's advocate  >:D, if they are actually deluded into thinking that with enough money thrown at the problem they could actually hire the right people to make this thing happen... they will just pay some people for a few years and squander it all away when they give up.

If backers are lucky, they will post regular updates for 1-2 years, showing "progress" and maybe some prototypes or various "scientific-looking" data or photos of lab equipment, and then eventually say they can't deliver... By then most backers would have either forgotten or succumbed to "attrition" and these con artists would be sitting on money stashed up in secret Swiss bank accounts (unless they actually tried to at least make it happen and hired engineers and bought equipment).

SO either they know it's not possible and tricking everyone and plan not to spent a cent, or they are clueless and think it can happen and waste it all on development and come up with nothing. I don't know which one to believe. I also can't believe so many people would throw $299 at this thing.

Who needs a job anymore? Just come up with Star Trek gadget or Back To The Future gadget and kickstart it. A little bit of Photoshop and 3D Rendering skills is all you need, churn it through the bullshit-o-matic 5000, and that's a sure-fire ticket to a big lump cash sum. I picked the wrong profession...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 04:15:50 pm by edy »
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Offline station240

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2016, 09:05:41 pm »
I think it's just two tiny bottles of oxygen hidden inside the 'arms' of the device.
Anyone who's seen a handheld butane torch/soldering iron, will know the size of bottle I mean.

Also they claim to put high energy density batteries in this thing. I don't want to think about what could happen should water get into the charging socket/electronics.
This goes way beyond IP66 rating.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2016, 10:16:42 pm »
I think it's just two tiny bottles of oxygen hidden inside the 'arms' of the device.
Anyone who's seen a handheld butane torch/soldering iron, will know the size of bottle I mean.

Also they claim to put high energy density batteries in this thing. I don't want to think about what could happen should water get into the charging socket/electronics.
This goes way beyond IP66 rating.

I think it's much more simple than that.

Someone that age, height, and fitness probably has a vital capacity somewhere around 5-6 liters or more. He's just exhaling.

Which is why near the end of the cut at 1:40 he sinks, rather than floats at the beginning. Also the fact the video is cut multiple times.

Also the fact that the claims they are making would possibly put them up for consideration for multiple Nobel prizes.
 

Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2016, 01:20:58 am »
Someone that age, height, and fitness probably has a vital capacity somewhere around 5-6 liters or more. He's just exhaling.

Which is why near the end of the cut at 1:40 he sinks, rather than floats at the beginning. Also the fact the video is cut multiple times.

Also the fact that the claims they are making would possibly put them up for consideration for multiple Nobel prizes.

It's fake, and they know it. I predict IGG will let this sham run it's course and then at the moment the project creator(s) try to cash in on their jackpot they will get a rude awakening. Maybe IGG wants to just see how far stupidity will go. They can just not charge anyone's credit card. Nothing lost, nothing gained.
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Offline Mr.B

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2016, 01:32:46 am »
Quote
Gillyweed is a magical plant native to the Mediterranean Sea. When it is eaten by a witch or wizard, one grows gills and webbing between the fingers and toes, allowing them to process oxygen from water and navigate underwater more easily. There is some debate among Herbologists as to the duration of the effects of Gillyweed in fresh water versus salt water, but the effects of Gillyweed in fresh water seem to last about an hour.

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Gillyweed

Triton Artificial Gills are just another fairy tale.
I cannot understand why there are so many gullible people on this planet.
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Offline lwatts666

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2016, 06:08:17 am »
NASA estimates human oxygen consumption at 840g/day, about 0.6g/minute. Oxygen solubility in water at 20C is about 9mg/l (less for salt water, less as water warms). Assuming that the water is fully saturated with oxygen, and ALL that oxygen can be extracted, then the device must pass at least 67 liters per minute of water through the 'filter'.

With a water jet like that coming out of the device, its no wonder the video talked about biting down on the mouthpiece... :-DD
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2016, 11:14:00 am »
Someone that age, height, and fitness probably has a vital capacity somewhere around 5-6 liters or more. He's just exhaling.

Which is why near the end of the cut at 1:40 he sinks, rather than floats at the beginning. Also the fact the video is cut multiple times.

Also the fact that the claims they are making would possibly put them up for consideration for multiple Nobel prizes.

It's fake, and they know it. I predict IGG will let this sham run it's course and then at the moment the project creator(s) try to cash in on their jackpot they will get a rude awakening. Maybe IGG wants to just see how far stupidity will go. They can just not charge anyone's credit card. Nothing lost, nothing gained.

IGG will never ever stop it, all they want is 5% of the pledged money. On top of it they "invented" flexible funding (you get the money even if you not reach your goal) and InDemand (Campaign stays open as long as you want). Many people wrote IGG about Ritot, they did absolutely nothing. Ah wait... IGG let them beta test InDemand as the first campaign! This company is  :bullshit:
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2016, 11:56:29 am »
They also say the maximum depth is 15 feet. The explanation for this is in the comments, normally you would think pressure. Not at all, they say the oxygen level drops as deeper you go and that's why the limit is 15 feet.
This is true and false, the oxygen level drops between 200-800m.
http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Re-St/Sea-Water-Gases-in.html
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Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2016, 05:18:02 pm »
I predict IGG will let this sham run it's course and then at the moment the project creator(s) try to cash in on their jackpot they will get a rude awakening. Maybe IGG wants to just see how far stupidity will go. They can just not charge anyone's credit card. Nothing lost, nothing gained.

Nope.  It will absolutely run to completion, IGG will take their cut, and all of the supporters will be screwed.  It's happened plenty of times before, and it will continue to happen as long as people continue to think with their imaginations instead of reason.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2016, 05:24:42 pm »
Nope.  It will absolutely run to completion, IGG will take their cut, and all of the supporters will be screwed.  It's happened plenty of times before, and it will continue to happen as long as people continue to think with their imaginations instead of reason.
+1. IGG of course wouldn't spit on their cut.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2016, 11:14:09 pm »
Just look at the people behind it:


An industrial design graduate with not much a experience:
https://kr.linkedin.com/in/jeabyun

A "Swedish entrepreneur"

and the obligatory "marketing genius"

Yeah, this has winner written all over it...
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2016, 11:20:53 pm »
Gotta love the team. Wooooooow, it's absolutely perfect.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2016, 11:21:11 pm »
And this project is old it seems, from 2014:
http://www.deepseanews.com/2014/01/triton-not-dive-or-dive-not-there-is-no-triton/

Technical detail from that link:
Quote
OK, I hate gearing up for a dive as much as anyone, but unfortunately there’s a bit of physics and physiology that means the Triton concept just ain’t gonna happen.  On Earth at least.  Naboo, maybe… Let me break it down for you.

The average human breathes about 500mls of air per breath as their standard tidal volume
Of that 500 mls, 21% is oxygen going in, and 16% is oxygen coming out, meaning that we strip about 5% of the volume of every breath as pure oxygen, or about 25mls (0.025 liters)
Using Avagadro’s Law (1 mole of any gas occupies 22.4 liters) we see:
V1/n1 = V2/n2 –> 22.4L/1mol = 0.025L/Xmol –> X = 0.00111mol.  Each breath consumes 0.00111 moles of oxygen gas
From the molar weight of di-molecular oxygen gas (16g x 2 = 32g/mol), we can calculate that each breath is:
32g * 0.00111mol = 0.03552g of oxygen, or 35.52 milligrams (mg)
Now, well-oxygenated surface ocean waters (on Earth of course, I have no idea about Naboo) contain about 6mg/L of oxygen.
So, to supply one breath’s worth of oxygen, the Triton would need to filter 35.52mg/6mgL = 5.92L of water.  Let’s call it 6L for convenience.  And it would need to do so with 100% extraction efficiency, which is not realistic under any diffusion or adsorption scenario, but let’s give Mr Yeon the benefit of the doubt.
The average person breathes around 15 times per minute at rest.  Lets assume we’re diving in a restful fashion, and not chasing Gungans into the underwaterways to escape Colo Clawfish
Therefore, to supply you with oxygen at normal resting breathing rates, the Triton would need to filter 15 x 6L = 90L per minute, or about 24 gallons.  For scale, 25 gallons a minute is about as much as a 1/4 horsepower sump pump pushes out, depending on static head. Without any kind of pump in the Triton to move water through the device, it relies on swimming (and presumably breathe suction?) to create the flow of water.  There’s too many variables in that, but let’s just say you’d certainly have to swim so fast to supply the needs of 15bpm that you wouldn’t be breathing 15bpm anymore.
All of this assumes the device is only stripping oxygen from the water, but if you think about it, that wouldn’t work very well.  You’ll get your 25mls of pure oxygen, but nothing else.  The human mouth holds over 75mls alone (don’t ask how I know this, let’s just say that I learned at college), with at least that much again in the trachea (it was a rough night), so you’re 6 breaths in just to get the gas to your bronchi, let alone the alveoli where the magic happens.
 

Offline cavac

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2016, 12:18:34 am »
With a water jet like that coming out of the device, its no wonder the video talked about biting down on the mouthpiece... :-DD

You shouldn't have said that. Now they're gonna market the thing as a dual use device: Air supply AND the worlds first underwater jet ski.  :palm:
"I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus doing something incredibly stupid... then i went ahead anyway." (Crowe, MST2K)
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2016, 02:26:54 am »
The battery is 30 times smaller and recharges 1000 times faster than a Lithium battery  :wtf:  :bullshit:  :wtf:  :bullshit:

Directly from Jeabyun Yeon BE page:
"The micro compressor operates through micro battery. The micro battery is a next-generation technology with a size 30 times smaller than current battery that can quickly charge 1,000 times faster."
https://www.behance.net/gallery/13434535/TRITON

So it looks like according to him, for this thing to work battery density has to increase by more than an order of magnitude, and the charge rates by two orders of magnitude... Nobel prize?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 02:32:00 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 


Offline mtdoc

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2016, 03:02:48 am »
And this project is old it seems, from 2014:
http://www.deepseanews.com/2014/01/triton-not-dive-or-dive-not-there-is-no-triton/

Technical detail from that link:
Quote
OK, I hate gearing up for a dive as much as anyone, but unfortunately there’s a bit of physics and physiology that means the Triton concept just ain’t gonna happen.  On Earth at least.  Naboo, maybe… Let me break it down for you.

The average human breathes about 500mls of air per breath as their standard tidal volume
Of that 500 mls, 21% is oxygen going in, and 16% is oxygen coming out, meaning that we strip about 5% of the volume of every breath as pure oxygen, or about 25mls (0.025 liters)
Using Avagadro’s Law (1 mole of any gas occupies 22.4 liters) we see:
V1/n1 = V2/n2 –> 22.4L/1mol = 0.025L/Xmol –> X = 0.00111mol.  Each breath consumes 0.00111 moles of oxygen gas
From the molar weight of di-molecular oxygen gas (16g x 2 = 32g/mol), we can calculate that each breath is:
32g * 0.00111mol = 0.03552g of oxygen, or 35.52 milligrams (mg)
Now, well-oxygenated surface ocean waters (on Earth of course, I have no idea about Naboo) contain about 6mg/L of oxygen.
So, to supply one breath’s worth of oxygen, the Triton would need to filter 35.52mg/6mgL = 5.92L of water.  Let’s call it 6L for convenience.  And it would need to do so with 100% extraction efficiency, which is not realistic under any diffusion or adsorption scenario, but let’s give Mr Yeon the benefit of the doubt.
The average person breathes around 15 times per minute at rest.  Lets assume we’re diving in a restful fashion, and not chasing Gungans into the underwaterways to escape Colo Clawfish
Therefore, to supply you with oxygen at normal resting breathing rates, the Triton would need to filter 15 x 6L = 90L per minute, or about 24 gallons.  For scale, 25 gallons a minute is about as much as a 1/4 horsepower sump pump pushes out, depending on static head. Without any kind of pump in the Triton to move water through the device, it relies on swimming (and presumably breathe suction?) to create the flow of water.  There’s too many variables in that, but let’s just say you’d certainly have to swim so fast to supply the needs of 15bpm that you wouldn’t be breathing 15bpm anymore.
All of this assumes the device is only stripping oxygen from the water, but if you think about it, that wouldn’t work very well.  You’ll get your 25mls of pure oxygen, but nothing else.  The human mouth holds over 75mls alone (don’t ask how I know this, let’s just say that I learned at college), with at least that much again in the trachea (it was a rough night), so you’re 6 breaths in just to get the gas to your bronchi, let alone the alveoli where the magic happens.


That's a good start on why this won't work. There are several other reasons. For example: Human ventilation requires a relatively large volume of gas moving both in and out of the lungs.  Tidal volume at rest is 500ml as he says - and it will be a  larger volume with physical exertion - and the respiratory rate goes up with exertion. It's the minute ventilation (volume/breath x  breaths/minute) that matters.  Even if you could get a device to produce 35 mg of O2 per breath as he calculates - delivering that much O2 alone to the lungs will not be sufficient to sustain life.  The O2 needs to be part of a larger volume of gas to inflate the lungs and create the pressure differential at the alveoli to allow diffusion of the the O2 into the capillaries.  AND - you need to have a volume of gas in the lungs with a partial pressure of CO2 low enough to allow diffusion of CO2 out of the blood into the lung to be exhaled with respiration.

Then there's the whole issue of the pressure required to inflate the lungs when deep underwater. There's a reason divers breath compressed air. Try taking a garden hose and sinking to the bottom of the deep end of a swimming pool - then using the hose to breath air from the surface.  It ain't gonna work very well..

Bottom line - it's not just about the oxygen. As one of my med school profs was fond of saying: "Air must go in and out, blood must go 'round and 'round"

« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 03:11:12 am by mtdoc »
 


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