Author Topic: Triton Artificial Gills  (Read 64132 times)

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Offline wraper

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2016, 11:19:05 pm »


Discuss  :)
BS video, never moves, does not move his head so the cheeks would be visible. My guess he has a gas cylinder behind his back and a thin tube across his cheek.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 12:07:01 am by wraper »
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #76 on: April 01, 2016, 11:24:15 pm »
You can easily carry oxygen with you.

Liquid O2  1 liter bottle holds 1.1kg of oxygen.  According to the previous post you need 35mg per breath. 1 liter bottle is going to last a while.


All their money got pulled/reset - new campaign. New one states further down that it has LO2 tanks. 



Click here to see IGG update
  (link for space reasons)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 12:09:16 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #77 on: April 01, 2016, 11:39:01 pm »
Someone should tell NASA they've figured out room temperature LOX storage. This will revolutionize space flight.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #78 on: April 01, 2016, 11:46:17 pm »
Someone should tell NASA they've figured out room temperature LOX storage. This will revolutionize space flight.
Even if they could, good luck shipping small cylinders of LOX at a reasonable price given it's hazardous.

So now they say the "gills" are just heat exchangers (and possibly CO2 scrubbers or something but they dont say that).

They dont actually say, as far as I can tell, that they will be shipping containers with the LOX actually in them, just that the containers can be used once and maybe multi-use in the future.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 01:14:01 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #79 on: April 02, 2016, 02:05:02 am »
People are subscribing to this new campaign!

This idea is still nuts. Lets say they can somehow make a non-refrigerated liquid oxygen tank. If it is possible, it will be very expensive, but lets go with it. If live in the US and want to take your tiny Triton "Rebreather" on a holiday to Hawaii, you will have to leave the tanks behind. You cannot take liquid oxygen on a plane.

How are they actually going to supply these cylinders safely? Set up an international chain of distributors with shipping by boat?

Then there is still the batteries. If they are banking on the experimental technology I mentioned from 2013 (the "1000 times faster charge and 30 times smaller" battery), that doesn't sound possible. In 2013, the capacity was 1/10th the current Lithium battery capacity at best and it would be expensive. So they will probably be back to using off-the-shelf Lithium Ion batteries.

About the new video, who knows what that was. A trained diver can spend many minutes underwater particularly if there is no activity. You can make bubbles with a carbon dioxide cylinder.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 02:17:09 am by amspire »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #80 on: April 02, 2016, 03:02:34 am »
As i said ealier, supplying oxygen is not the hard part, it's ventilating the lungs which requires a fairly large volume of mostly an inert gas to both deliver the oxygen and allow removal of CO2. Without that large volume of gas, you cannot inflate the lungs and therefore cannot achieve the required surface area at the level of the alveoli needed to allow the necessry gas exchange.

These guys are peddling snake oil.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #81 on: April 02, 2016, 04:11:38 am »
As i said ealier, supplying oxygen is not the hard part, it's ventilating the lungs which requires a fairly large volume of mostly an inert gas to both deliver the oxygen and allow removal of CO2. Without that large volume of gas, you cannot inflate the lungs and therefore cannot achieve the required surface area at the level of the alveoli needed to allow the necessry gas exchange.

These guys are peddling snake oil.

In diving, oxygen partial pressure is usually considered safe at around 1.4 ppo2 or below for non extended duration dive times (http://www.diverite.com/articles/oxygen-toxicity-signs-and-symptoms/ http://www.nitrox.com/nitrox-basics-oxygen-management-part-3.html http://precisiondiving.net/blog/how-to-calculate-partial-pressure-of-oxygen/). At 15ft and 100% o2 the ppo2 is around 1.45 for seawater and less for fresh water.

LOX has an expansion ratio of 1:861 at atmospheric pressure. Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute.  210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.

I could be totally wrong because I know nothing about it, so if am please correct me if you see something wrong
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 04:52:08 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #82 on: April 02, 2016, 05:11:33 am »
Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute.  210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.
Triton are claiming in the Indiegogo answers that the liquid 02 cylinders can be used twice - specifically 2 x 45 minutes. We do not know if there is one or two cylinders used at a time.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #83 on: April 02, 2016, 05:19:39 am »
Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute.  210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.
Triton are claiming in the Indiegogo answers that the liquid 02 cylinders can be used twice - specifically 2 x 45 minutes. We do not know if there is one or two cylinders used at a time.
I calculated for non-resting. Resting tidal volume and breaths per min goes way down (like .5L and 12 bpm) so that's actually still pretty close I think...  resting for average person ~35 minutes if things are correct.  Longer for smaller person.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 05:32:17 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #84 on: April 02, 2016, 05:52:33 am »
All their money got pulled/reset - new campaign. New one states further down that it has LO2 tanks. 

Click here to see IGG update
  (link for space reasons)

 :-DD
All of the new campaign still implies it gets the oxygen from the water.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #85 on: April 02, 2016, 05:55:55 am »
LOX has an expansion ratio of 1:861 at atmospheric pressure. Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute.  210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.

I know nothing about LOX, but if what you are saying is that 0.25 l of LOX can expand to 210 l of 100% O2 gas at 1atm, that still does not help. In what chamber does that expansion occur? Also, 100% O2 is not a viable gas for respiration (except in highly specialized situations with tight control of pressures and close monitoring).
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 06:05:10 am by mtdoc »
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #86 on: April 02, 2016, 05:57:16 am »
All their money got pulled/reset - new campaign. New one states further down that it has LO2 tanks. 

Click here to see IGG update
  (link for space reasons)

 :-DD
All of the new campaign still implies it gets the oxygen from the water.

Yeah so weird. The Lo2 part is buried in the middle of all the bs that caused the campaign to reset in the first place.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #87 on: April 02, 2016, 06:03:45 am »
LOX has an expansion ratio of 1:861 at atmospheric pressure. Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute.  210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.

I know nothing about LOX, but if what you are saying is that 0.25 l of LOX can expand to 210 l of 100% O2 gas at 1atm, that still does not help. In what chamber does that expansion occur? Also, 100% O2 is not a viable gas for respiration.

Their new campaign says the membrane is used as a heat exchange for the lo2 (phase change). Im guessing the pump or whatever is for metering, but have no idea. It's possible to use an orifice if you have the heat exchange rate  approximately correct.

The sites I was reading, if i'm understating them correctly, say you can breath 100% o2 at sea level (1.0 ppo2) for 12-16 hours before people start having problems with the toxic effects. Apparently diving standard is 1.4 ppo2 for regular usage and 1.6 for special or emergency usage. The allowable time decreases.

http://www.diverite.com/articles/oxygen-toxicity-signs-and-symptoms/ http://www.nitrox.com/nitrox-basics-oxygen-management-part-3.html http://precisiondiving.net/blog/how-to-calculate-partial-pressure-of-oxygen/
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 06:22:24 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #88 on: April 02, 2016, 06:26:35 am »

Their new campaign says the membrane is used as a heat exchange for the lo2 (phase change). Im guessing the pump or whatever is for metering, but have no idea. It's possible to use an orifice if you have the heat exchange rate  approximately correct.
The volume required is not going to be a constant. It will vary between individuals and depending in activity.

Quote
The sites I was reading, if i'm understating them correctly, say you can breath 100% o2 at sea level (1.0 ppo2) for 12-16 hours before toxic effects start. Apparently diving standard is 1.4 ppo2 for regular usage and 1.6 for special or emergency usage. The allowable time decreases.
It's true that under very specialized circunstances you can get away with breathing 100% O2 for short periods but it requires pretty tightly controlled parameters for pressure, etc to avoid toxicity. (I added that caveat to my post above). Higher pressures as needed to inflate the lungs underwater = more toxicity. I'm no expert on dive medicine but  I believe Navy Seal rebreathers use high O2 concentrations. I'm sure if it was possible to use such a James Bond like miniature device as this they would be doing that..

Even if they could solve the technical issues of using LOX at normal temperatures and then using it to provide the correct on demand volume of gas required for ventilation ( very unlikely IMO), do they really think they're going to get away selling a device that lets someone mess around breathing 100% O2 underwater?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 06:30:58 am by mtdoc »
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #89 on: April 02, 2016, 06:50:45 am »
Their new campaign says the membrane is used as a heat exchange for the lo2 (phase change). Im guessing the pump or whatever is for metering, but have no idea. It's possible to use an orifice if you have the heat exchange rate  approximately correct.

The volume required is not going to be a constant. It will vary between individuals and depending in activity.

True, if they have no metering the dive time would go way down and they would have a problem. However, they've said there s a pump in the device, I think it's for metering but don't know. Also their "demo" videos gives the impression of metering.

Quote
The sites I was reading, if i'm understating them correctly, say you can breath 100% o2 at sea level (1.0 ppo2) for 12-16 hours before toxic effects start. Apparently diving standard is 1.4 ppo2 for regular usage and 1.6 for special or emergency usage. The allowable time decreases.
It's true that under very specialized circunstances you can get away with breathing 100% O2 for short periods but it requires pretty tightly controlled parameters for pressure, etc to avoid toxicity. (I added that caveat to my post above). Higher pressures as needed to inflate the lungs underwater = more toxicity. I'm no expert on dive medicine but  I believe Navy Seal rebreathers use high O2 concentrations. I'm sure if it was possible to use such a James Bond like miniature device as this the would be doing that..
I accounted for the change of partial pressure (for 15 feet depth) in the calculations using the diving guidelines. It came out to 1.45 ppo2, which is still the allowable range.

The military units are much larger because they have mechanisms to maintain the allowable partial pressure across varying dive depths and probably other gas mixing stuff to prevent decompression problems. Their closed loop, so they have to scrub the co2 as well.


Even if they could solve the technical issues of using LOX at normal temperatures and then using it to provide the correct on demand volume of gas required for ventilation ( very unlikely IMO),
I dont have confidence in them at all. There are other LOX scuba equipment on the market and history (soviet), so it's not impossible to do..... but it's these guys no.

do they really think they're going to get away selling a device that lets someone mess around breathing 100% O2 underwater?

Ive been thinking about this as well.  The liabilities are huge.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 07:12:06 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #90 on: April 02, 2016, 07:09:22 am »
do they really think they're going to get away selling a device that lets someone mess around breathing 100% O2 underwater?

Ive been thinking about this as well.  The liabilities are huge.
They have to be able to sell it first, and I do not know how they are going to even distribute it.

They cannot mail liquid O2.

Perhaps everyone has to go to Sweden to collect it in person? Or it could be the Triton they say they will deliver will not include any O2.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 07:13:01 am by amspire »
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #91 on: April 02, 2016, 07:28:16 am »
They have to be able to sell it first, and I do not know how they are going to even distribute it.
They cannot mail liquid O2.
Perhaps everyone has to go to Sweden to collect it in person? Or it could be the Triton they say they will deliver will not include any O2.

As far as I can tell, they dont actually say that they will be shipping containers with the LOX actually in them, just that the containers can be used once and maybe multi-use in the future.... ::)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #92 on: April 02, 2016, 09:54:23 am »
You gotta wonder whether it ever used liquid oxygen to begin with, or whether it did try the ridiculous concept of getting it from the water (as their campaign still implies) and once they got called out, they got the last minute idea to use it not thinking through the obvious ridiculousness with the shipping restrictions.
Either way  :palm:
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #93 on: April 02, 2016, 04:26:09 pm »
You gotta wonder whether it ever used liquid oxygen to begin with, or whether it did try the ridiculous concept of getting it from the water (as their campaign still implies) and once they got called out, they got the last minute idea to use it not thinking through the obvious ridiculousness with the shipping restrictions.
Either way  :palm:

Or since they got called out on their first lie, they came up with a new lie just to keep the ball rolling for a while....
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #94 on: April 02, 2016, 05:08:55 pm »
You gotta wonder whether it ever used liquid oxygen to begin with, or whether it did try the ridiculous concept of getting it from the water (as their campaign still implies) and once they got called out, they got the last minute idea to use it not thinking through the obvious ridiculousness with the shipping restrictions.
Either way  :palm:

Or since they got called out on their first lie, they came up with a new lie just to keep the ball rolling for a while....

This is my vote
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #95 on: April 02, 2016, 05:24:22 pm »
You gotta wonder whether it ever used liquid oxygen to begin with, or whether it did try the ridiculous concept of getting it from the water (as their campaign still implies) and once they got called out, they got the last minute idea to use it not thinking through the obvious ridiculousness with the shipping restrictions.
Either way  :palm:

Or since they got called out on their first lie, they came up with a new lie just to keep the ball rolling for a while....

This is my vote

What crazy is they got caught with a near $1 million lie the first time around.... And yet Indiegogo still allows them on the platform.... even with basically the same promo garbage.
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #96 on: April 02, 2016, 05:25:32 pm »
Their new campaign says the membrane is used as a heat exchange for the lo2 (phase change). Im guessing the pump or whatever is for metering, but have no idea. It's possible to use an orifice if you have the heat exchange rate  approximately correct.

The volume required is not going to be a constant. It will vary between individuals and depending in activity.

True, if they have no metering the dive time would go way down and they would have a problem. However, they've said there s a pump in the device, I think it's for metering but don't know. Also their "demo" videos gives the impression of metering.

Quote
The sites I was reading, if i'm understating them correctly, say you can breath 100% o2 at sea level (1.0 ppo2) for 12-16 hours before toxic effects start. Apparently diving standard is 1.4 ppo2 for regular usage and 1.6 for special or emergency usage. The allowable time decreases.
It's true that under very specialized circunstances you can get away with breathing 100% O2 for short periods but it requires pretty tightly controlled parameters for pressure, etc to avoid toxicity. (I added that caveat to my post above). Higher pressures as needed to inflate the lungs underwater = more toxicity. I'm no expert on dive medicine but  I believe Navy Seal rebreathers use high O2 concentrations. I'm sure if it was possible to use such a James Bond like miniature device as this the would be doing that..
I accounted for the change of partial pressure (for 15 feet depth) in the calculations using the diving guidelines. It came out to 1.45 ppo2, which is still the allowable range.

The military units are much larger because they have mechanisms to maintain the allowable partial pressure across varying dive depths and probably other gas mixing stuff to prevent decompression problems. Their closed loop, so they have to scrub the co2 as well.


Even if they could solve the technical issues of using LOX at normal temperatures and then using it to provide the correct on demand volume of gas required for ventilation ( very unlikely IMO),
I dont have confidence in them at all. There are other LOX scuba equipment on the market and history (soviet), so it's not impossible to do..... but it's these guys no.

do they really think they're going to get away selling a device that lets someone mess around breathing 100% O2 underwater?

Ive been thinking about this as well.  The liabilities are huge.

It might be possible to build a device using LOX, but that device wouldn't use shippable prefilled cylinders. You would have to fill on site, from a proper cryogenic storage system. Liquid oxygen is incredibly dangerous, and not easily available to your average consumer. The easiest way to get it is to accidentally condense it when working with LN2, which can lead to spontaneous fires/explosions.

There was a team working on an amateur-built LOX-rubber hybrid rocket motor. They had issues initially with the LOX spontaneously combusting when contacting residual organics in their fill system, though they clued up and got oxygen-safe parts pretty quickly.

This isn't the sort of thing you're going to haul down to your local gas station to fill like you would a propane tank.

I wonder if its possible they are using some other liquid, and depending on a chemical reaction to produce O2. Chemical oxygen generators are pretty old tech, and they get very hot, possibly requiring a heat exchanger. If you remember the big ValueJet crash in 1996, that was caused by an accidental initiation of an improperly stored oxygen generator, which started a fire (and then fed it with oxygen). Maybe the whole heat exchanger thing is more BS, to explain away why it gets hot without revealing how it works.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 05:36:24 pm by Nerull »
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #97 on: April 02, 2016, 07:04:30 pm »
It might be possible to build a device using LOX, but that device wouldn't use shippable prefilled cylinders. You would have to fill on site, from a proper cryogenic storage system. Liquid oxygen is incredibly dangerous, and not easily available to your average consumer. The easiest way to get it is to accidentally condense it when working with LN2, which can lead to spontaneous fires/explosions.

There was a team working on an amateur-built LOX-rubber hybrid rocket motor. They had issues initially with the LOX spontaneously combusting when contacting residual organics in their fill system, though they clued up and got oxygen-safe parts pretty quickly.

This isn't the sort of thing you're going to haul down to your local gas station to fill like you would a propane tank.
lox is definitely dangerous....it's 100% oxidizer and continuously vents....
I wonder if its possible they are using some other liquid, and depending on a chemical reaction to produce O2. Chemical oxygen generators are pretty old tech, and they get very hot, possibly requiring a heat exchanger. If you remember the big ValueJet crash in 1996, that was caused by an accidental initiation of an improperly stored oxygen generator, which started a fire (and then fed it with oxygen). Maybe the whole heat exchanger thing is more BS, to explain away why it gets hot without revealing how it works.

This is actually totally possible. In there campaign video they say "a connector that has a special compound on the inside, that blends the oxygen with the compound by chemical way".  That does sound like some sort of chem generator, catalyst, reactor. (I previously thought it had something do with their "gill" concept as catalysts or something to the membrane contactor, co2 scrubber etc). They say 'liquid oxygen' in there campaign (no quotes), but in there update feed they say "liquid oxygen"  (with the quotes). So if it's not really true liquid oxygen, what else could it be?

One possibility is liquid nitrous oxide. That is shippable and storable at room temp. Has an expansion ratio of over 600. Can be separated into 66% N2 and 33% O2 via a catalyst (which is pretty close to ideal). Membrane could handle liquid to gas conversion.......Problem is.... it's patented http://www.google.ch/patents/US20020056451
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 07:41:52 pm by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline timb

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #98 on: April 02, 2016, 11:10:43 pm »
Yeah but, how much breathable air can you really get out of small canister like that? Consider those small canisters of NiOx used in whip cream dispensers. *They'll give you two, maybe three complete lung inhales per canister. Now, I know this is liquid NiOx we're talking about, but I can't imagine it being that much more efficient.

*I mean, so I've been told...I would never do Whipits...Drugs are bad, stay in school kids.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline MadTux

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #99 on: April 03, 2016, 12:23:48 am »
You could use chemical oxygen generators, like catalytic decomposition of hydrogen peroxide or sodium peroxide:
2 H2O2 =MnO2=> 2H2O + O2

Or use pyrotechnic oxygen candles, like those used on ISS. Best oxygen/weight ratio apart from LOX, they are mostly lithium perchlorate mixed with a little fuel, so that it burns hot enough to decompose the lithium perchlorate into lithium chloride and oxygen :
2 LiClO4 =heat=> 2LiCl + 4O2

But all this is very expensive, dangerous and a potential fire hazard. So just as inpractical for common use as the LOX variant.
 


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