Author Topic: Triton Artificial Gills  (Read 64122 times)

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Offline sswift

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Triton Artificial Gills
« on: March 19, 2016, 08:23:24 am »
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-first-artificial-gills-re-breather#/

This would be an awesome product... if it weren't physically impossible to extract that much oxygen from the water through filtering.  That would require over 200L of water to pass through the gills per minute even if they have designed a filter that can separate oxygen from seawater.

Analysis here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/4av9xw/triton_allows_you_to_breathe_underwater_100k_in/d13so58

Still, I wonder if it might be one day possible to create a product like this using electrolysis and a large battery pack strapped to your back.  If you used a closed-circuit system like a rebreather, perhaps it could be made to work?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebreather

The problem with electrolysis, besides it likely being extremely difficult to do on seawater, is that it produces pure oxygen - which is poisonous.  But with a closed system you could recycle the CO2 to bring the concentration down to a safe level.

But that article says around 4L per minute of oxygen is required for someone exercising.  I assume you get 1L of oxygen per 1L of water?  Or is it 1/2?  Either way, seems like something that maybe you could achieve in a device that straps to your back and is the size of the rebreather in the Wikipedia article.

The question though is how much power you'd need and if present battery technology would be capable of sustaining it for any period of time.  I believe those rebreathers can last for quite a long time as I'm pretty sure I've heard of cave divers using them and staying under for a day or more, so that would be the metric to beat.

And speaking of rebreathers, I just noticed their campaign says "re-breather" in the title, but it doesn't appear to be designed to store and return any of the air you exhale and there are tons of bubbles in the photos.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 08:25:15 am by sswift »
 

Offline firewalker

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2016, 08:25:54 am »
It has a fishy smell.  :-X :-X :-X

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Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline kwass

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2016, 12:48:41 pm »
My take on this is that it's not an "artificial gill" at all but simply a battery powered atmospheric air compressor that requires you to surface every minute or so.  It will compress a few litters of air into it's storage tank and allow you to breath a few times under water before you repeat the process.

It's not a bad idea I think, but it should be honestly advertised.

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Offline m98

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2016, 03:44:10 pm »
They only talk about oxygen, so they basically don't even have any idea of diving or high pressure physiology.
 

Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2016, 07:49:24 pm »
It looks like an Airing with even more bullshit extended out the side....

AIRING:




TRITON:



Same issues though... You have to throw out physics to make either of them actually work, and they have raised oodles of money. No working prototype. Not even a hint of how it may even work, and the type of power system required. These are what I like to call in the "STAR TREK" Category of scams... That is, it will only exist in the year 2400:

« Last Edit: March 19, 2016, 07:55:40 pm by edy »
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2016, 04:23:39 pm »
People in the comments asking about this article
http://www.deepseanews.com/2014/01/triton-not-dive-or-dive-not-there-is-no-triton/
..and still every 10 min a new sucker!  :palm:
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2016, 06:15:50 am »
The battery is 30 times smaller and recharges 1000 times faster than a Lithium battery  :wtf:  :bullshit:  :wtf:  :bullshit:

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Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2016, 06:44:47 am »
https://youtu.be/obqxzmmv7uM

The video is all cut up. But especially noticed the end when he's on his back at 1:40..... he stays at the bottom when he stops swimming while wearing no diving weights and not anywhere deep enough for buoyancy loss..... which means his lungs are almost empty lol

Also see the team listing.... industrial designer, "entrepreneur", marketing....... no engineer  :palm:
 

Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2016, 03:49:00 pm »
IndieGogo/Flexible Funding = They can take your money no matter whether they meet goal or not.

And they have met goal, and they have (as of this post) around $340,000... and the possible consequences or criminal liabilities are ZERO. Of course, we are all making the assumption that they are simply scamming the public. To play Devil's advocate  >:D, if they are actually deluded into thinking that with enough money thrown at the problem they could actually hire the right people to make this thing happen... they will just pay some people for a few years and squander it all away when they give up.

If backers are lucky, they will post regular updates for 1-2 years, showing "progress" and maybe some prototypes or various "scientific-looking" data or photos of lab equipment, and then eventually say they can't deliver... By then most backers would have either forgotten or succumbed to "attrition" and these con artists would be sitting on money stashed up in secret Swiss bank accounts (unless they actually tried to at least make it happen and hired engineers and bought equipment).

SO either they know it's not possible and tricking everyone and plan not to spent a cent, or they are clueless and think it can happen and waste it all on development and come up with nothing. I don't know which one to believe. I also can't believe so many people would throw $299 at this thing.

Who needs a job anymore? Just come up with Star Trek gadget or Back To The Future gadget and kickstart it. A little bit of Photoshop and 3D Rendering skills is all you need, churn it through the bullshit-o-matic 5000, and that's a sure-fire ticket to a big lump cash sum. I picked the wrong profession...
« Last Edit: March 21, 2016, 04:15:50 pm by edy »
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Online station240

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2016, 09:05:41 pm »
I think it's just two tiny bottles of oxygen hidden inside the 'arms' of the device.
Anyone who's seen a handheld butane torch/soldering iron, will know the size of bottle I mean.

Also they claim to put high energy density batteries in this thing. I don't want to think about what could happen should water get into the charging socket/electronics.
This goes way beyond IP66 rating.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2016, 10:16:42 pm »
I think it's just two tiny bottles of oxygen hidden inside the 'arms' of the device.
Anyone who's seen a handheld butane torch/soldering iron, will know the size of bottle I mean.

Also they claim to put high energy density batteries in this thing. I don't want to think about what could happen should water get into the charging socket/electronics.
This goes way beyond IP66 rating.

I think it's much more simple than that.

Someone that age, height, and fitness probably has a vital capacity somewhere around 5-6 liters or more. He's just exhaling.

Which is why near the end of the cut at 1:40 he sinks, rather than floats at the beginning. Also the fact the video is cut multiple times.

Also the fact that the claims they are making would possibly put them up for consideration for multiple Nobel prizes.
 

Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2016, 01:20:58 am »
Someone that age, height, and fitness probably has a vital capacity somewhere around 5-6 liters or more. He's just exhaling.

Which is why near the end of the cut at 1:40 he sinks, rather than floats at the beginning. Also the fact the video is cut multiple times.

Also the fact that the claims they are making would possibly put them up for consideration for multiple Nobel prizes.

It's fake, and they know it. I predict IGG will let this sham run it's course and then at the moment the project creator(s) try to cash in on their jackpot they will get a rude awakening. Maybe IGG wants to just see how far stupidity will go. They can just not charge anyone's credit card. Nothing lost, nothing gained.
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Offline Mr.B

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2016, 01:32:46 am »
Quote
Gillyweed is a magical plant native to the Mediterranean Sea. When it is eaten by a witch or wizard, one grows gills and webbing between the fingers and toes, allowing them to process oxygen from water and navigate underwater more easily. There is some debate among Herbologists as to the duration of the effects of Gillyweed in fresh water versus salt water, but the effects of Gillyweed in fresh water seem to last about an hour.

http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Gillyweed

Triton Artificial Gills are just another fairy tale.
I cannot understand why there are so many gullible people on this planet.
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Offline lwatts666

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2016, 06:08:17 am »
NASA estimates human oxygen consumption at 840g/day, about 0.6g/minute. Oxygen solubility in water at 20C is about 9mg/l (less for salt water, less as water warms). Assuming that the water is fully saturated with oxygen, and ALL that oxygen can be extracted, then the device must pass at least 67 liters per minute of water through the 'filter'.

With a water jet like that coming out of the device, its no wonder the video talked about biting down on the mouthpiece... :-DD
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2016, 11:14:00 am »
Someone that age, height, and fitness probably has a vital capacity somewhere around 5-6 liters or more. He's just exhaling.

Which is why near the end of the cut at 1:40 he sinks, rather than floats at the beginning. Also the fact the video is cut multiple times.

Also the fact that the claims they are making would possibly put them up for consideration for multiple Nobel prizes.

It's fake, and they know it. I predict IGG will let this sham run it's course and then at the moment the project creator(s) try to cash in on their jackpot they will get a rude awakening. Maybe IGG wants to just see how far stupidity will go. They can just not charge anyone's credit card. Nothing lost, nothing gained.

IGG will never ever stop it, all they want is 5% of the pledged money. On top of it they "invented" flexible funding (you get the money even if you not reach your goal) and InDemand (Campaign stays open as long as you want). Many people wrote IGG about Ritot, they did absolutely nothing. Ah wait... IGG let them beta test InDemand as the first campaign! This company is  :bullshit:
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2016, 11:56:29 am »
They also say the maximum depth is 15 feet. The explanation for this is in the comments, normally you would think pressure. Not at all, they say the oxygen level drops as deeper you go and that's why the limit is 15 feet.
This is true and false, the oxygen level drops between 200-800m.
http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Re-St/Sea-Water-Gases-in.html
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Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2016, 05:18:02 pm »
I predict IGG will let this sham run it's course and then at the moment the project creator(s) try to cash in on their jackpot they will get a rude awakening. Maybe IGG wants to just see how far stupidity will go. They can just not charge anyone's credit card. Nothing lost, nothing gained.

Nope.  It will absolutely run to completion, IGG will take their cut, and all of the supporters will be screwed.  It's happened plenty of times before, and it will continue to happen as long as people continue to think with their imaginations instead of reason.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2016, 05:24:42 pm »
Nope.  It will absolutely run to completion, IGG will take their cut, and all of the supporters will be screwed.  It's happened plenty of times before, and it will continue to happen as long as people continue to think with their imaginations instead of reason.
+1. IGG of course wouldn't spit on their cut.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2016, 11:14:09 pm »
Just look at the people behind it:


An industrial design graduate with not much a experience:
https://kr.linkedin.com/in/jeabyun

A "Swedish entrepreneur"

and the obligatory "marketing genius"

Yeah, this has winner written all over it...
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2016, 11:20:53 pm »
Gotta love the team. Wooooooow, it's absolutely perfect.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2016, 11:21:11 pm »
And this project is old it seems, from 2014:
http://www.deepseanews.com/2014/01/triton-not-dive-or-dive-not-there-is-no-triton/

Technical detail from that link:
Quote
OK, I hate gearing up for a dive as much as anyone, but unfortunately there’s a bit of physics and physiology that means the Triton concept just ain’t gonna happen.  On Earth at least.  Naboo, maybe… Let me break it down for you.

The average human breathes about 500mls of air per breath as their standard tidal volume
Of that 500 mls, 21% is oxygen going in, and 16% is oxygen coming out, meaning that we strip about 5% of the volume of every breath as pure oxygen, or about 25mls (0.025 liters)
Using Avagadro’s Law (1 mole of any gas occupies 22.4 liters) we see:
V1/n1 = V2/n2 –> 22.4L/1mol = 0.025L/Xmol –> X = 0.00111mol.  Each breath consumes 0.00111 moles of oxygen gas
From the molar weight of di-molecular oxygen gas (16g x 2 = 32g/mol), we can calculate that each breath is:
32g * 0.00111mol = 0.03552g of oxygen, or 35.52 milligrams (mg)
Now, well-oxygenated surface ocean waters (on Earth of course, I have no idea about Naboo) contain about 6mg/L of oxygen.
So, to supply one breath’s worth of oxygen, the Triton would need to filter 35.52mg/6mgL = 5.92L of water.  Let’s call it 6L for convenience.  And it would need to do so with 100% extraction efficiency, which is not realistic under any diffusion or adsorption scenario, but let’s give Mr Yeon the benefit of the doubt.
The average person breathes around 15 times per minute at rest.  Lets assume we’re diving in a restful fashion, and not chasing Gungans into the underwaterways to escape Colo Clawfish
Therefore, to supply you with oxygen at normal resting breathing rates, the Triton would need to filter 15 x 6L = 90L per minute, or about 24 gallons.  For scale, 25 gallons a minute is about as much as a 1/4 horsepower sump pump pushes out, depending on static head. Without any kind of pump in the Triton to move water through the device, it relies on swimming (and presumably breathe suction?) to create the flow of water.  There’s too many variables in that, but let’s just say you’d certainly have to swim so fast to supply the needs of 15bpm that you wouldn’t be breathing 15bpm anymore.
All of this assumes the device is only stripping oxygen from the water, but if you think about it, that wouldn’t work very well.  You’ll get your 25mls of pure oxygen, but nothing else.  The human mouth holds over 75mls alone (don’t ask how I know this, let’s just say that I learned at college), with at least that much again in the trachea (it was a rough night), so you’re 6 breaths in just to get the gas to your bronchi, let alone the alveoli where the magic happens.
 

Offline cavac

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2016, 12:18:34 am »
With a water jet like that coming out of the device, its no wonder the video talked about biting down on the mouthpiece... :-DD

You shouldn't have said that. Now they're gonna market the thing as a dual use device: Air supply AND the worlds first underwater jet ski.  :palm:
"I calculated the odds of this succeeding versus doing something incredibly stupid... then i went ahead anyway." (Crowe, MST2K)
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2016, 02:26:54 am »
The battery is 30 times smaller and recharges 1000 times faster than a Lithium battery  :wtf:  :bullshit:  :wtf:  :bullshit:

Directly from Jeabyun Yeon BE page:
"The micro compressor operates through micro battery. The micro battery is a next-generation technology with a size 30 times smaller than current battery that can quickly charge 1,000 times faster."
https://www.behance.net/gallery/13434535/TRITON

So it looks like according to him, for this thing to work battery density has to increase by more than an order of magnitude, and the charge rates by two orders of magnitude... Nobel prize?
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 02:32:00 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 


Offline mtdoc

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2016, 03:02:48 am »
And this project is old it seems, from 2014:
http://www.deepseanews.com/2014/01/triton-not-dive-or-dive-not-there-is-no-triton/

Technical detail from that link:
Quote
OK, I hate gearing up for a dive as much as anyone, but unfortunately there’s a bit of physics and physiology that means the Triton concept just ain’t gonna happen.  On Earth at least.  Naboo, maybe… Let me break it down for you.

The average human breathes about 500mls of air per breath as their standard tidal volume
Of that 500 mls, 21% is oxygen going in, and 16% is oxygen coming out, meaning that we strip about 5% of the volume of every breath as pure oxygen, or about 25mls (0.025 liters)
Using Avagadro’s Law (1 mole of any gas occupies 22.4 liters) we see:
V1/n1 = V2/n2 –> 22.4L/1mol = 0.025L/Xmol –> X = 0.00111mol.  Each breath consumes 0.00111 moles of oxygen gas
From the molar weight of di-molecular oxygen gas (16g x 2 = 32g/mol), we can calculate that each breath is:
32g * 0.00111mol = 0.03552g of oxygen, or 35.52 milligrams (mg)
Now, well-oxygenated surface ocean waters (on Earth of course, I have no idea about Naboo) contain about 6mg/L of oxygen.
So, to supply one breath’s worth of oxygen, the Triton would need to filter 35.52mg/6mgL = 5.92L of water.  Let’s call it 6L for convenience.  And it would need to do so with 100% extraction efficiency, which is not realistic under any diffusion or adsorption scenario, but let’s give Mr Yeon the benefit of the doubt.
The average person breathes around 15 times per minute at rest.  Lets assume we’re diving in a restful fashion, and not chasing Gungans into the underwaterways to escape Colo Clawfish
Therefore, to supply you with oxygen at normal resting breathing rates, the Triton would need to filter 15 x 6L = 90L per minute, or about 24 gallons.  For scale, 25 gallons a minute is about as much as a 1/4 horsepower sump pump pushes out, depending on static head. Without any kind of pump in the Triton to move water through the device, it relies on swimming (and presumably breathe suction?) to create the flow of water.  There’s too many variables in that, but let’s just say you’d certainly have to swim so fast to supply the needs of 15bpm that you wouldn’t be breathing 15bpm anymore.
All of this assumes the device is only stripping oxygen from the water, but if you think about it, that wouldn’t work very well.  You’ll get your 25mls of pure oxygen, but nothing else.  The human mouth holds over 75mls alone (don’t ask how I know this, let’s just say that I learned at college), with at least that much again in the trachea (it was a rough night), so you’re 6 breaths in just to get the gas to your bronchi, let alone the alveoli where the magic happens.


That's a good start on why this won't work. There are several other reasons. For example: Human ventilation requires a relatively large volume of gas moving both in and out of the lungs.  Tidal volume at rest is 500ml as he says - and it will be a  larger volume with physical exertion - and the respiratory rate goes up with exertion. It's the minute ventilation (volume/breath x  breaths/minute) that matters.  Even if you could get a device to produce 35 mg of O2 per breath as he calculates - delivering that much O2 alone to the lungs will not be sufficient to sustain life.  The O2 needs to be part of a larger volume of gas to inflate the lungs and create the pressure differential at the alveoli to allow diffusion of the the O2 into the capillaries.  AND - you need to have a volume of gas in the lungs with a partial pressure of CO2 low enough to allow diffusion of CO2 out of the blood into the lung to be exhaled with respiration.

Then there's the whole issue of the pressure required to inflate the lungs when deep underwater. There's a reason divers breath compressed air. Try taking a garden hose and sinking to the bottom of the deep end of a swimming pool - then using the hose to breath air from the surface.  It ain't gonna work very well..

Bottom line - it's not just about the oxygen. As one of my med school profs was fond of saying: "Air must go in and out, blood must go 'round and 'round"

« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 03:11:12 am by mtdoc »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2016, 03:29:13 am »
They responded to my tweet:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sofotb

Quote
"Yes I have a very easy explanation for that, first of all that article is from Jan 2014 that more then 2 years ago, and second the technology withTriton is not the same, because we have not yet released the full technology data of Triton due to our patents, and what the article is saying is a theory we had when we first just had designed Triton, we have achieved a lot since then :) thank you for sharing and supporting Triton."

He seems to be under some misapprehension about how patents work. Once you file the patent you are protected, you are then free to publish anything you want.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 03:33:42 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2016, 03:31:54 am »
That's a good start on why this won't work. There are several other reasons. For example: Human ventilation requires a relatively large volume of gas moving both in and out of the lungs.  Tidal volume at rest is 500ml as he says - and it will be a  larger volume with physical exertion - and the respiratory rate goes up with exertion. It's the minute ventilation (volume/breath x  breaths/minute) that matters.  Even if you could get a device to produce 35 mg of O2 per breath as he calculates - delivering that much O2 alone to the lungs will not be sufficient to sustain life.  The O2 needs to be part of a larger volume of gas to inflate the lungs and create the pressure differential at the alveoli to allow diffusion of the the O2 into the capillaries.  AND - you need to have a volume of gas in the lungs with a partial pressure of CO2 low enough to allow diffusion of CO2 out of the blood into the lung to be exhaled with respiration.

Always great to have expert technical input from our resident medical doctor!  :-+
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2016, 03:37:45 am »
They responded to my tweet:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sofotb

Well, looks like I got trolled nicely by a fake twitter account! :-DD



« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 03:42:26 am by EEVblog »
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2016, 03:53:16 am »
LOL 
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2016, 04:07:49 am »
They only talk about oxygen, so they basically don't even have any idea of diving or high pressure physiology.

I think it is only intended to be used at low pressure, say, 100ft or 200ft max.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2016, 04:29:16 am »
They only talk about oxygen, so they basically don't even have any idea of diving or high pressure physiology.

I think it is only intended to be used at low pressure, say, 100ft or 200ft max.

The pressure at 100 ft underwater is pretty high from a physiology standpoint.  As I mentioned above - even if you had a device that could produce the sufficient gas mixture (this never will) - it would need to be produced at a high enough pressure to inflate the lungs.  A person cannot reliably produce adequate negative inspiratory force (suction) at 10 feet under water to ventilate the lungs with gas at 1 atmosphere pressure.  Forget about 100 feet.

Maybe the Triton is planning to incorporate supercharged versions of the Airing's magic microblowers.. - oh  yeah  then again those can't even produce the 10 cm H2O pressure needed to treat sleep apnea..::)
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2016, 04:42:05 am »
The pressure at 100 ft underwater is pretty high from a physiology standpoint.

Well, you are a doctor, I'm not, at least not the medical one.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2016, 04:51:09 am »
They have the problem completely wrong

You can easily carry oxygen with you.

Liquid O2  1 liter bottle holds 1.1kg of oxygen.  According to the previous post you need 35mg per breath. 1 liter bottle is going to last a while.

So the problem is you actually need more volume to breath, both as a carrier to fill your lungs with o2, and as a medium to get rid of co2 from your body.

So their purposed system would be way more useful if it could primarily extract a large volume of nitrogen from the water, rather than oxygen (or maybe some o2)......I think there is less nitrogen in water than oxygen though  :)

What could also be useful is if they reversed the membrane function to remove C02, and reuse the carrier while adding some O2. This would be a new type of re-breather.

Or a combination of the two above or whatever.

Point is they probably "solved" the wrong problem even in fantasy land.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 05:22:15 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2016, 05:24:40 am »
They have the problem completely wrong

You can easily carry oxygen with you.

Liquid O2  1 liter bottle holds 1.1kg of oxygen.  According to the previous post you need 35mg per breath. 1 liter bottle is going to last a while.

So the problem is you actually need more volume to breath, both as a carrier to fill your lungs with o2, and as a medium to get rid of co2 from your body.

So their purposed system would be way more useful if it could primarily extract nitrogen from the water, rather than oxygen (or combination)......I think there is less nitrogen in water than oxygen though  :)

What could also be useful is if they reversed the membrane function to remove C02, and reuse the carrier while adding some O2. This would be a new type of re-breather.

Or a combination of the two above or whatever.

Point is they probably "solved" the wrong problem even in fantasy land.

That's interesting. Being said, O2 has critical temperature way lower than room temperature, so if you put LO2 in a vessel, it will go supercritical as temperature rises.
At room temperature and a useful density, despite I do not have any data, I believe the pressure or supercritical O2 is quite high, at least way higher than 25MPa, otherwise people will not put oxygen air in cylinders, they will put supercritical oxygen instead, just like CO2 (at >31.1C).
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2016, 05:36:36 am »
Liquid oxygen must be stored cryogenically, O2 cylinders contain gaseous oxygen. LO2 tanks are vacuum insulated and need constant pressure venting to prevent rupture. Its not a practical way to store small amounts of breathing O2.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2016, 06:01:02 am »
Liquid oxygen must be stored cryogenically, O2 cylinders contain gaseous oxygen. LO2 tanks are vacuum insulated and need constant pressure venting to prevent rupture. Its not a practical way to store small amounts of breathing O2.

Liquid 02 was used in soviet rebreather units for 6+ hour dives.  The low temp was used to also condense the co2 out of the breathing loop.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2016, 06:14:29 am »
They have the problem completely wrong

You can easily carry oxygen with you.

Liquid O2  1 liter bottle holds 1.1kg of oxygen.  According to the previous post you need 35mg per breath. 1 liter bottle is going to last a while.

So the problem is you actually need more volume to breath, both as a carrier to fill your lungs with o2, and as a medium to get rid of co2 from your body.

So their purposed system would be way more useful if it could primarily extract nitrogen from the water, rather than oxygen (or combination)......I think there is less nitrogen in water than oxygen though  :)

What could also be useful is if they reversed the membrane function to remove C02, and reuse the carrier while adding some O2. This would be a new type of re-breather.

Or a combination of the two above or whatever.

Point is they probably "solved" the wrong problem even in fantasy land.

That's interesting. Being said, O2 has critical temperature way lower than room temperature, so if you put LO2 in a vessel, it will go supercritical as temperature rises.
At room temperature and a useful density, despite I do not have any data, I believe the pressure or supercritical O2 is quite high, at least way higher than 25MPa, otherwise people will not put oxygen air in cylinders, they will put supercritical oxygen instead, just like CO2 (at >31.1C).

I didn't mean to suggest for long term storage, just for diving.  Typical small dewars can hold for a few days upto a week.

The main point was that they need way more volume of gas to fill the lungs and get rid of co2 (likely the harder problems), instead it seems they focused only on a small amount of oxygen
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 06:42:36 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2016, 06:41:07 am »
I wonder if this has the potential to also extract other things, such as chlorine gas, bromine, or others from pool water?
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2016, 07:33:41 am »
They blocked me on Youtube, I knew this is possible, but what's new for me is that IGG has now also such a function. If I try to write a comment the response is "An unknown error has occurred."
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Offline PeterL

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2016, 10:41:00 am »
Swimming around in salty water with a modified Lithium Ion battery in your mouth.

What could possibly go wrong...
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2016, 11:01:34 am »
Forget the pure implausibility of producing enough breathable oxygen for a moment via whatever magical compressors the art-concept design might have...
They describe a "Microporous membrane" to actually extract the gases from water.  That means that the "Micropourous membrane" must remain open to O2 molecules, yet block everything else.  How long do you think it would take for that nonsense to clog up in anything but pure, distilled water?

Oh, I see, they place a "Water Filter" around the membrane... again, a filter that will will allow only water and O2 to pass, but not get clogged from, oh, say, plankton?

Someone needs to make a new website "IndieNoGo.org" to vet these absurd ideas, since IGG et al block and remove any negative comments.
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2016, 01:33:43 pm »
One issue with squeezing oxygen through a filter to extract it from water is going to be that O2 molecules are larger than water molecules. You're going to need something fancier than micropores - a hydrophobic membrane, perhaps. http://www.techbriefs.com/component/content/article/1068

Assuming you could perfectly extract dissolved oxygen from seawater, you would need to process 51 gallons of water per minute to supply one diver with oxygen. This is about 25 times the flow rate of an average kitchen faucet. You could, presumably, also use this device for jet propulsion.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2016, 02:19:56 pm »
 
One issue with squeezing oxygen through a filter to extract it from water is going to be that O2 molecules are larger than water molecules. You're going to need something fancier than micropores - a hydrophobic membrane, perhaps. http://www.techbriefs.com/component/content/article/1068

Assuming you could perfectly extract dissolved oxygen from seawater, you would need to process 51 gallons of water per minute to supply one diver with oxygen. This is about 25 times the flow rate of an average kitchen faucet. You could, presumably, also use this device for jet propulsion.

They are likely using a contactor. Used for degassing fluids and stuff.
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2016, 03:01:22 pm »
Many of these campaigns seem to have one thing in common... A new "Super Efficient, Super Capacity Battery", typically at least 30x better then anything else out there to date.

If it were me, and I did have that, that would be my product; not a gizmo to use it in.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2016, 03:25:57 pm »
Many of these campaigns seem to have one thing in common... A new "Super Efficient, Super Capacity Battery", typically at least 30x better then anything else out there to date.

If it were me, and I did have that, that would be my product; not a gizmo to use it in.

Yes totally. But as a note, I don't think they have actually said they were going to develop the battery.  Everything (I think) says next-gen battery........  ::)
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2016, 10:35:06 pm »
 This super battery is the next project for Bob and Probes.....


 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2016, 12:49:44 pm »
Quote
because we have not yet released the full technology data of Triton due to our patents
They probably have added a tube so the battery can safely operate  ;D
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2016, 01:48:43 pm »
Someone needs to make a new website "IndieNoGo.org" to vet these absurd ideas, since IGG et al block and remove any negative comments.

This would not help, remember Ritot, many people wrote in the comments why it is not feasible, they gave up deleting the comments after they recognized that negative comments don't stop the money flow. The comment section was and still is full of such "negative" comments and during InDemand they still got $1000/day.
Btw, Triton refunded my $1 (I didn't asked for it) and deleted all of my comments always almost immediately, same for the Youtube comments, they monitor all comments 7x24h.
The best thing is that you have to logoff to see if a comment is deleted, as long as your logged in you will always see your comments and that's true for IGG and YT.

IMO IGG is responsible because the do nothing, even after the got multiple times informed about a scampaign. They will do absolutely nothing because they just want the $$$.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2016, 01:53:33 pm by Kalidor »
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2016, 03:44:13 pm »
Some begin to speculate if this device does electrolysis, here my two cents to this.

They say it runs for 45min you need about 25g of O2 for 45min.
To produce 1kg O2 with electrolysis you need 17.73 MJ. For 25g you need 443.3 kJ which is 123.1 Wh.
The best rechargeable lithium batteries have a energy density of 0.87 MJ/kg.
This results in a battery that weights 510g without any casing.
In addition to that electrolysis would also produce chlorine gas at the anode (where the O2 is) if you are diving in sea/saline water.
Not to say that you need a re-breather and a CO2 filter.

This is a 120Wh Lithium battery ($200, 780g)
http://www.amazon.com/8000mAh-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Battery-Camera/dp/B00J7LQS2W
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Offline zapta

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #49 on: March 28, 2016, 04:28:00 pm »
Directly from Jeabyun Yeon BE page:
"The micro compressor operates through micro battery. The micro battery is a next-generation technology with a size 30 times smaller than current battery that can quickly charge 1,000 times faster."
https://www.behance.net/gallery/13434535/TRITON

Why battery? They could license technology from uBeam and power it using an ultrasound beam from base stations on the shore.
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Offline Bud

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2016, 04:45:55 pm »
Better yet, they could harvest ultrasonic energy already in the ocean, i.e. Emitted by dolphins and submarines.
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Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2016, 05:05:38 pm »
Some begin to speculate if this device does electrolysis, here my two cents to this.

They say it runs for 45min you need about 25g of O2 for 45min.
To produce 1kg O2 with electrolysis you need 17.73 MJ. For 25g you need 443.3 kJ which is 123.1 Wh.
The best rechargeable lithium batteries have a energy density of 0.87 MJ/kg.
This results in a battery that weights 510g without any casing.
In addition to that electrolysis would also produce chlorine gas at the anode (where the O2 is) if you are diving in sea/saline water.
Not to say that you need a re-breather and a CO2 filter.

This is a 120Wh Lithium battery ($200, 780g)
http://www.amazon.com/8000mAh-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Battery-Camera/dp/B00J7LQS2W

Not electrolysis, 99.9% certain it's a membrane contactor.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2016, 05:38:40 pm »
They say it runs for 45min you need about 25g of O2 for 45min.
Only 25g ? How much litres is that under lets say 20 bar of pressure?
They could make them with O2 cartridges if it is that little you need.  :-//
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2016, 03:07:55 am »
They say it runs for 45min you need about 25g of O2 for 45min.
Only 25g ? How much litres is that under lets say 20 bar of pressure?
They could make them with O2 cartridges if it is that little you need.  :-//

Couple of things...

1) The debunking site linked before says we breathe in 21% oxygen and breathe out 16%, and all the calculations are based on that (it works out to 35.5mg of oxygen per breath).  But I wonder if we only breathed in gas with 35.5mg of oxygen, would we be able to use all that 35.5mg?  I am guessing our lungs aren't 100% efficient so if we only had 35.5mg available per breath, I think we'd perhaps suffocate.  I know humans can survive in thinner oxygen environments but I wonder what the limit is before there's not enough O2 to sustain consciousness? 

2) You could probably get 25g of oxygen into those little canisters pretty easily, except for the fact that pure O2 will kill us, so there would need to be 95% of "something else" to go along with that 25 grams of O2 making it a lot more by volume and weight than just the needed oxygen.
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Offline Rerouter

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2016, 04:15:25 am »
I think this is about as close as you could realistically get, with a battery possibly topping up the tank with a pump and reusing the C02 scrubber at the surface. note that size is a 10 minute emergency kit,

More or less they could adopt a similar approach if they had a power source capable of extracting lets say 50mL of oxygen per breath max, but i can not see them pulling it off without a breathing bag,

http://oceanrebreathers.com/micro_rebreather.asp
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2016, 04:54:22 pm »
They say it runs for 45min you need about 25g of O2 for 45min.
Only 25g ? How much litres is that under lets say 20 bar of pressure?
They could make them with O2 cartridges if it is that little you need.  :-//

The density of O2 is 1.429 g/L
25g = 17.5L
Oxygen can  be bought in cylinders with a pressure of 200bar. So you need a 87.5ml cylinder for 25g
It's not only possible it exists, called a re-breather. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebreather
Triton can never be a re-breather, where do you want to store the exhaled air?
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2016, 05:09:20 pm »
They say it runs for 45min you need about 25g of O2 for 45min.
Only 25g ? How much litres is that under lets say 20 bar of pressure?
They could make them with O2 cartridges if it is that little you need.  :-//

Couple of things...

1) The debunking site linked before says we breathe in 21% oxygen and breathe out 16%, and all the calculations are based on that (it works out to 35.5mg of oxygen per breath).  But I wonder if we only breathed in gas with 35.5mg of oxygen, would we be able to use all that 35.5mg?  I am guessing our lungs aren't 100% efficient so if we only had 35.5mg available per breath, I think we'd perhaps suffocate.  I know humans can survive in thinner oxygen environments but I wonder what the limit is before there's not enough O2 to sustain consciousness? 

2) You could probably get 25g of oxygen into those little canisters pretty easily, except for the fact that pure O2 will kill us, so there would need to be 95% of "something else" to go along with that 25 grams of O2 making it a lot more by volume and weight than just the needed oxygen.

Yes it must be a re-breather, that's what the title implies "Triton, World's First Artificial Gills Re-breather", the calculation is based on scuba diver lecture, 1-2L oxygen per day. Nasa came up with 800ml but that's maybe because they calculated it with sleeping time and for Zero G.
But it's not possible that a device that small can be a re-breather, where should it store the exhaled air?

Not only pure O2 can kill us, you have to get rid of the CO2.
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Offline yjb851220

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2016, 09:38:30 pm »
On the indiegogo site it says: April 2014 - We made our first prototype, April 2015 - Complete functional prototype, then, on the Behance site Jeabyun Yeon says: September 2015 - There is currently a prototype . Concept Design.

"Concept Design"
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2016, 11:38:23 pm »
On the indiegogo site it says: April 2014 - We made our first prototype, April 2015 - Complete functional prototype, then, on the Behance site Jeabyun Yeon says: September 2015 - There is currently a prototype . Concept Design.

"Concept Design"
I don't have any problem with that  - if they had a believable design. The first prototype proves the principles but may not be usable. The second prototype is fully functional, meets all the claimed specs but it ugly and non-mass manufacturable. The third prototype is the actual prototype of the final product as it will be manufactured including the fancy plastic mouldings.

The thing about this is if they actually do have a second "Complete functional prototype", they would be able to specify exactly what the device will do. If it has changed from the original proposal, they should be letting all the contributors know about the changes.

But if they have a battery that is 30 times smaller then current batteries and charges 1000 times faster - they don't need to mess around with a rebreather. A company like Apple would hand over billions dollars today to lock in the rights to that technology. They could pay back every contributor tenfold and hardly notice.

If it turns out they made a few typing mistakes - such as their battery is actually a lithium ion battery, and it is the same size as current batteries and charges exactly as fast as current batteries - they should be letting contributors know.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #59 on: March 30, 2016, 12:00:00 am »
I don't know if it has been mentioned, but I think I have found the "30 times smaller" battery.

It is a research project at the University of Illinois to fabricate Lithium Ion batteries in a new way:

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/153614-new-lithium-ion-battery-design-thats-2000-times-more-powerful-recharges-1000-times-faster

They were predicting it could have the same power density as Lithium Ion batteries but can be discharged faster. Here is a quote from the press release in 2013:

Quote
With so much power, the batteries could enable sensors or radio signals that broadcast 30 times farther, or devices 30 times smaller. The batteries are rechargeable and can charge 1,000 times faster than competing technologies - imagine juicing up a credit-card-thin phone in less than a second. In addition to consumer electronics, medical devices, lasers, sensors and other applications could see leaps forward in technology with such power sources available.

Looking at the graphs, it actually appears that the button-sized test batteries made by the University before this press release have an energy density of at least an order of magnitude lower then current Lithium technology.

So other then the fast recharge, all you are getting is a micro battery that you can flatten in a minute. It does not give any extra power to stay under water longer. And using experimental technology in an application where your life depends on it?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 12:51:59 am by amspire »
 

Offline yjb851220

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2016, 12:09:40 am »
On the indiegogo site it says: April 2014 - We made our first prototype, April 2015 - Complete functional prototype, then, on the Behance site Jeabyun Yeon says: September 2015 - There is currently a prototype . Concept Design.

"Concept Design"
I don't have any problem with that  - if they had a believable design. The first prototype proves the principles but may not be usable. The second prototype is fully functional, meets all the claimed specs but it ugly and non-mass manufacturable. The third prototype is the actual prototype of the final product as it will be manufactured including the fancy plastic mouldings.

The thing about this is if they actually do have a second "Complete functional prototype", they would be able to specify exactly what the device will do. If it has changed from the original proposal, they should be letting all the contributors know about the changes.

But if they have a battery that is 30 times smaller then current batteries and charges 1000 times faster - they don't need to mess around with a rebreather. A company like Apple would hand over billions dollars today to lock in the rights to that technology. They could pay back every contributor tenfold and hardly notice.

If it turns out they made a few typing mistakes - such as their battery is actually a lithium ion battery, and it is the same size as current batteries and charges exactly as fast as current batteries - they should be letting contributors know.

They have not made a "Complete functional prototype". It's just a lie and everyone is catching onto it. From the indiegogo webpage:

What's next?
We have created a working prototype, the next step is:

Finalize the engineering
Oversee production
Create and finalize the Triton case
Follow up our patents
Conduct final tests before we start manufacturing
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2016, 12:41:06 am »

They have not made a "Complete functional prototype". It's just a lie and everyone is catching onto it. From the indiegogo webpage:
...
Follow up our patents
...
They are very keen on these patents. If they can get a bunch of patents funded by Triton contributors, then they can sit on them, even if they never make anything. I am sure that the contributors thought their money was going towards the manufacturing of a tested product, and not to lawyers for some world-wide patents.

I hate the fact that you can patent an "idea" even though you have no ability at all to make the idea work.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 12:48:22 am by amspire »
 

Offline altaic

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2016, 09:12:28 am »
If there is electrolysis involved, I'm not so sure that this project is total bullshit.

Electrolysis takes ~12kJ of energy to produce 1 liter of hydrogen in the ideal case, which means 0.5 liter of oxygen is also produced. The tidal volume (one normal breath) of an average adult is 0.5 liters, but air is only 20% oxygen, so only 0.1 liter of oxygen is necessary. Hydrogen is not poisonous, so up the ratio of oxygen to 0.33%, or 0.16 liters oxygen and 0.33 liters of hydrogen, for an overall ideal amount of energy being 4kJ per breath, which is ~1 Wh per breath. Just don't light a cigarette after taking a breath from the thing.

Adults have a resting breathing rate of 12-18 breaths per minute, or 720-1080 breaths per hour, which equates to 720W to 1080W average. Divide that by 2, since there are two generators on this device and you get an average power draw of 360W to 540W. They say "enjoy up to 45 minutes of snorkeling", which means the energy stored has to be 270Wh to 405Wh. There are li-ion batteries that claim 350Wh/kg, so that'd be 1.7lbs per generator for the best case 270Wh figure, so 3.4lbs total. Kinda hefty, but not orders of magnitude off.

Now, lets make the figures a bit more realistic:

1) The electrolysis won't be 100% efficient. A catalyst and electrolyte can get pretty decent efficiency, say 60%; no idea what catalyst they'd use, but it's immersed in saltwater, so the electrolyte's already there. Being pretty generous, that'd bring the battery to 450Wh which would weigh ~2.8lbs, or ~5.6lbs for both generators. Still not too far out there, and weight doesn't really matter under water; just slap some foam on it to compensate the lack of buoyancy.

2) People generally don't swim with a resting respiratory rate and tidal volume, though it varies vastly from person to person. From SCUBA, I've seen some people suck air like it's going out of style. For marketing, I'd imagine they had (or are planning on having) somebody meditating in a pool to get an ultra low respiratory rate for "up to 45 minutes".  *Shrug* that's typical marketing for you.

3) I'd be very interested as far as their catalyst(s) go, since I'm not fond of breathing chlorine gas or hydrochloric acid.

So, for typical use, I'd say it could do the business for 5 or 10 minutes, which isn't a bad outlook for a first gen device. And, it's marketed as a snorkeling accessory so it's not really life threatening when it runs out of juice (likely you would notice it slowing down generation and just surface). But anyway, that's all based on napkin calculations from general info on wikipedia (water electrolysis, hydrogen production, lung capacity, respiratory rate, power-to-weight ratio). Also, I've been awake for way too long, so I may have made some sort of critical error in said calculations. Good night.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 09:20:41 am by altaic »
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2016, 09:22:59 am »
If there is electrolysis involved, I'm not so sure that this project is total bullshit.

Electrolysis takes ~12kJ of energy to produce 1 liter of hydrogen in the ideal case, which means 0.5 liter of oxygen is also produced. The tidal volume (one normal breath) of an average adult is 0.5 liters, but air is only 20% oxygen, so only 0.1 liter of oxygen is necessary. Hydrogen is not poisonous, so up the ratio of oxygen to 0.33%, or 0.16 liters oxygen and 0.33 liters of hydrogen, for an overall ideal amount of energy being 4kJ per breath, which is ~1 Wh per breath. Just don't light a cigarette after taking a breath from the thing.

Adults have a resting breathing rate of 12-18 breaths per minute, or 720-1080 breaths per hour, which equates to 720W to 1080W average. Divide that by 2, since there are two generators on this device and you get an average power draw of 360W to 540W. They say "enjoy up to 45 minutes of snorkeling", which means the energy stored has to be 270Wh to 405Wh. There are li-ion batteries that claim 350Wh/kg, so that'd be 1.7lbs per generator for the best case 270Wh figure, so 3.4lbs total. Kinda hefty, but not orders of magnitude off.

Now, lets make the figures a bit more realistic:

1) The electrolysis won't be 100% efficient. A catalyst and electrolyte can get pretty decent efficiency, say 60%; no idea what catalyst they'd use, but it's immersed in saltwater, so the electrolyte's already there. Being pretty generous, that'd bring the battery to 450Wh which would weigh ~2.8lbs, or ~5.6lbs for both generators. Still not too far out there, and weight doesn't really matter under water; just slap some foam on it to compensate the lack of buoyancy.

2) People generally don't swim with a resting respiratory rate and tidal volume, though it varies vastly from person to person. From SCUBA, I've seen some people suck air like it's going out of style. For marketing, I'd imagine they had (or are planning on having) somebody meditating in a pool to get an ultra low respiratory rate for "up to 45 minutes".  *Shrug* that's typical marketing for you.

3) I'd be very interested as far as their catalyst(s) go, since I'm not fond of breathing chlorine gas or hydrochloric acid.

So, for typical use, I'd say it could do the business for 5 or 10 minutes, which isn't a bad outlook for a first gen device. And, it's marketed as a snorkeling accessory so it's not really life threatening when it runs out of juice (likely you would notice it slowing down generation and just surface). But anyway, that's all based on napkin calculations from general info on wikipedia (water electrolysis, hydrogen production, lung capacity, respiratory rate, power-to-weight ratio). Also, I've been awake for way too long, so I may have made some sort of critical error in said calculations. Good night.

Not electrolysis, 99.9% certain it's a membrane contactor.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2016, 09:59:52 am »
There are li-ion batteries that claim 350Wh/kg, so that'd be 1.7lbs per generator for the best case 270Wh figure, so 3.4lbs total. Kinda hefty, but not orders of magnitude off.
But they'd still be an order of magnitude (actually more like 2) larger than the space they allocate for it in their "thing"...
 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2016, 11:11:56 am »
Hmm, I thought i would take the extreme, what would it take to build the smallest possible closed circuit re-breather, (closed allow for lower stored air volume than open)

An oddity of this is, the average person could survive for a day off a 60L scuba tank at the surface while idle, (11000L / 200 bar = 55L), but such a tank would be too heavy for the average person to move, so thats our baseline, so for that we have 21% as oxygen, or 2310L of oxygen, 8580L of nitrogen 3.3L of Carbon Dioxide, and 117L of argon and other gases, for at surface at rest, for an entire day, with only 660L of that oxygen actually being used,

So what do we know, for a closed circuit re-breather, you need primarily oxygen, some nitrogen, and a tiny reserve of carbon dioxide that doesn't go through the filter to keep your brain happy, and can ignore those other gases and make up the difference with nitrogen,
 
We breath in 0.5 Liters of, Breath out 0.5 Liters, Then The lime soda scrubber absorbs 0.03L of carbon dioxide increasing its mass, but not reducing the pressure in the loop, so your left with 16% oxygen and 84% nitrogen, (Pressure Remains the same, but the carbon dioxide being effectively scrubbed gains you an extra % of oxygen as the volume has reduced by 30mL)

 so to add back in 5% of oxygen (25mL) assuming we don't have a way to isolate nitrogen, would require venting 5.24mL of Oxygen and 20mL of nitrogen,  to equalize pressure, in otherwords we only get an effective use from 79% of the oxygen we tank with the simplest option possible, note this is purely focused on a rigid air volume design like what they have drawn, with a breathing bag it works a little differently, not to mention with each breath you run out of nitrogen and breathing volume as the filter fills up, assuming the bare minimum, you get 16 breaths before its kaput,

Now if we take a breathing bag style with expanding volumes, and some overhead (breath out and breath in volume with filter between, lets say 2L per bag) you have a similar breath out, the filter captures the carbon maintains the same volume, you would be at something like 19.5% oxygen on the other side of the filter, it adds in a fresh 30mL, the pressure in the loop increases by approximately 750 Pascals, (0.75Kpa) and likely expands to compensate to some degree, As such you maintain your fixed volume of nitrogen, and have many breaths before the pressure release valve on the breathing bags gets triggered, then you back-fill the lost portion of nitrogen to make up the difference on the next breath cycle,  This leaves us with roughly a 150mL oxygen bottle, and from looking around generally the same size for Nitrogen or "Dilutant" bottle for 1 Hour on the surface,

Lets assume we plonk someone down for a 1 hour dive time at 10 meters, a normal recreational dive,  where they would normally use a 12L tank of air at 200 Bar, So using our resting baseline that means that they use up 2400L of air in an hour, now if they spend most of there time at that 10m mark, that means the work rate is ((2400 / 2) / 11000 * 24) = 2.61 Hours per hour, or a breathing rate of 78.3mL of oxygen per breath at the surface, this more or less gives us a guideline to how big our tanks need to be,

So lets take that 150mL bottle, * 2 for the depth of 10m, then * 2.61 for the work rate, we end up with a 0.8L tank pair, or 230g of oxygen and 200g of Nitrogen, Compared to 3.1Kg of air for the 12L tank dive, sadly the tanks them self out of water still weight 1.7Kg each (3.4 + 0.43 = 3.83Kg), vs the single 13Kg (13 + 3.1 = 16.1Kg) air tank, much lighter but not something you would stick on your face until you where already underwater. This is all assuming a 200 Bar pressure.

The filter to hold the soda lime seems to come more or less around the 5Kg mark which seems to cover 4 dives, again i would assume this is for safety margin, bringing the re-breather at this low end up to 8.8Kg, then the expansion bags, should be light, and the electronics and solenoids, lets bargin 700grams for that, so 9.5Kg is about the smallest i could see such a thing being done for with a normal recreational dive in mind, too heavy to stick on a face, but quite possible to build into a backpack,

At least that is the best approach i can come up with without waving a magic wand,

There is a darker way to approach this, you can replace the nitrogen with hydrogen, as its less likely to cause nitrogen sickness at depth, which would allow electrolysis to recharge, (providing you can scrub the other nasties) but its still 3670 Watt hours to electrolyse 1L of water assuming everything goes perfectly, and to do that 1 hour dive, you need 320L electrolysed for every hour at that depth, which is way more than any battery a person could physically lift could produce, (a normal car battery only gives you about 1200 Watt Hours),

much easier to run atmosphere through a dust and air filter then carbon dioxide scrubber to recharge at the surface, you could then use a normal nitrogen membrane to seperate off the nitrogen from the oxygen, and bobs your uncle for quick and dirty (and possibly unsafe) now this part just for the air compressing would only take 120 Watt hours to pump both tanks to pressure, plus what other loads the filters and nitrogen membrane add, but more than reasonable on a sizable lithium, Set up your recharge tanks on the beach, leave it to recharge over the hour your re-breather dive takes, and do back to back dives until your filter needs replacing (probably 2-3 dives)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 11:15:20 am by Rerouter »
 

Offline altaic

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2016, 05:04:36 pm »
Not electrolysis, 99.9% certain it's a membrane contactor.

But what kind of membrane? One could make a membrane, catalyzer, and battery all in one structure. Think metal-air cell batteries, but instead of producing electricity, it produces oxygen and hydrogen. Might even be able to recatalyze some of the hydrogen with the oxygen already dissolved in the water.
 

Offline altaic

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2016, 05:15:11 pm »
There are li-ion batteries that claim 350Wh/kg, so that'd be 1.7lbs per generator for the best case 270Wh figure, so 3.4lbs total. Kinda hefty, but not orders of magnitude off.
But they'd still be an order of magnitude (actually more like 2) larger than the space they allocate for it in their "thing"...

Yeah, it'd need to be bigger, but not so sure about 2 orders of magnitude; the battery I was referring to from wikipedia is 320Wh/l [1]. Hmm, I noticed they have a vibrator in the mouthpiece. Maybe they're energy harvesting the user's breathing?

[1] http://sionpower.com/pdf/articles/LIS%20Spec%20Sheet%2010-3-08.pdf
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 05:18:12 pm by altaic »
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2016, 05:22:41 pm »
Not electrolysis, 99.9% certain it's a membrane contactor.

But what kind of membrane? One could make a membrane, catalyzer, and battery all in one structure. Think metal-air cell batteries, but instead of producing electricity, it produces oxygen and hydrogen. Might even be able to recatalyze some of the hydrogen with the oxygen already dissolved in the water.

Porous hollow fiber contactor
 

Offline altaic

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2016, 05:25:09 pm »
Porous hollow fiber contactor

Eh, yeah, just looked at their pretty diagrams and it looks like they're really saying it's two membrane modules and a tiny lithium ion battery, which reeks of BS. OTOH, perhaps they're trying to protect their IP by misrepresenting their secret sauce.
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2016, 04:57:55 pm »
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 


Offline Corporate666

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2016, 09:58:21 pm »
I'm not sure if it's just a problem with the Indiegogo website, but the link to the project is no longer working.  It seems to be gone.

Also, when I do a search from the pain page of IGG for Triton, Gills or such, nothing shows up.

Temporary glitch?  Did IGG pull it?  The Triton shysters claimed a new video was coming today - wonder what happened.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2016, 10:53:11 pm »
To me it looks like it got pulled for a review or something..... but dunno
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2016, 11:04:17 pm »


Discuss  :)

Edit - basically scam from the original IGG description campaign... see next page
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 11:53:04 pm by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2016, 11:19:05 pm »


Discuss  :)
BS video, never moves, does not move his head so the cheeks would be visible. My guess he has a gas cylinder behind his back and a thin tube across his cheek.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 12:07:01 am by wraper »
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #76 on: April 01, 2016, 11:24:15 pm »
You can easily carry oxygen with you.

Liquid O2  1 liter bottle holds 1.1kg of oxygen.  According to the previous post you need 35mg per breath. 1 liter bottle is going to last a while.


All their money got pulled/reset - new campaign. New one states further down that it has LO2 tanks. 



Click here to see IGG update
  (link for space reasons)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 12:09:16 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #77 on: April 01, 2016, 11:39:01 pm »
Someone should tell NASA they've figured out room temperature LOX storage. This will revolutionize space flight.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #78 on: April 01, 2016, 11:46:17 pm »
Someone should tell NASA they've figured out room temperature LOX storage. This will revolutionize space flight.
Even if they could, good luck shipping small cylinders of LOX at a reasonable price given it's hazardous.

So now they say the "gills" are just heat exchangers (and possibly CO2 scrubbers or something but they dont say that).

They dont actually say, as far as I can tell, that they will be shipping containers with the LOX actually in them, just that the containers can be used once and maybe multi-use in the future.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 01:14:01 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #79 on: April 02, 2016, 02:05:02 am »
People are subscribing to this new campaign!

This idea is still nuts. Lets say they can somehow make a non-refrigerated liquid oxygen tank. If it is possible, it will be very expensive, but lets go with it. If live in the US and want to take your tiny Triton "Rebreather" on a holiday to Hawaii, you will have to leave the tanks behind. You cannot take liquid oxygen on a plane.

How are they actually going to supply these cylinders safely? Set up an international chain of distributors with shipping by boat?

Then there is still the batteries. If they are banking on the experimental technology I mentioned from 2013 (the "1000 times faster charge and 30 times smaller" battery), that doesn't sound possible. In 2013, the capacity was 1/10th the current Lithium battery capacity at best and it would be expensive. So they will probably be back to using off-the-shelf Lithium Ion batteries.

About the new video, who knows what that was. A trained diver can spend many minutes underwater particularly if there is no activity. You can make bubbles with a carbon dioxide cylinder.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 02:17:09 am by amspire »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #80 on: April 02, 2016, 03:02:34 am »
As i said ealier, supplying oxygen is not the hard part, it's ventilating the lungs which requires a fairly large volume of mostly an inert gas to both deliver the oxygen and allow removal of CO2. Without that large volume of gas, you cannot inflate the lungs and therefore cannot achieve the required surface area at the level of the alveoli needed to allow the necessry gas exchange.

These guys are peddling snake oil.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #81 on: April 02, 2016, 04:11:38 am »
As i said ealier, supplying oxygen is not the hard part, it's ventilating the lungs which requires a fairly large volume of mostly an inert gas to both deliver the oxygen and allow removal of CO2. Without that large volume of gas, you cannot inflate the lungs and therefore cannot achieve the required surface area at the level of the alveoli needed to allow the necessry gas exchange.

These guys are peddling snake oil.

In diving, oxygen partial pressure is usually considered safe at around 1.4 ppo2 or below for non extended duration dive times (http://www.diverite.com/articles/oxygen-toxicity-signs-and-symptoms/ http://www.nitrox.com/nitrox-basics-oxygen-management-part-3.html http://precisiondiving.net/blog/how-to-calculate-partial-pressure-of-oxygen/). At 15ft and 100% o2 the ppo2 is around 1.45 for seawater and less for fresh water.

LOX has an expansion ratio of 1:861 at atmospheric pressure. Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute.  210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.

I could be totally wrong because I know nothing about it, so if am please correct me if you see something wrong
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 04:52:08 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #82 on: April 02, 2016, 05:11:33 am »
Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute.  210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.
Triton are claiming in the Indiegogo answers that the liquid 02 cylinders can be used twice - specifically 2 x 45 minutes. We do not know if there is one or two cylinders used at a time.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #83 on: April 02, 2016, 05:19:39 am »
Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute.  210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.
Triton are claiming in the Indiegogo answers that the liquid 02 cylinders can be used twice - specifically 2 x 45 minutes. We do not know if there is one or two cylinders used at a time.
I calculated for non-resting. Resting tidal volume and breaths per min goes way down (like .5L and 12 bpm) so that's actually still pretty close I think...  resting for average person ~35 minutes if things are correct.  Longer for smaller person.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 05:32:17 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #84 on: April 02, 2016, 05:52:33 am »
All their money got pulled/reset - new campaign. New one states further down that it has LO2 tanks. 

Click here to see IGG update
  (link for space reasons)

 :-DD
All of the new campaign still implies it gets the oxygen from the water.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #85 on: April 02, 2016, 05:55:55 am »
LOX has an expansion ratio of 1:861 at atmospheric pressure. Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute.  210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.

I know nothing about LOX, but if what you are saying is that 0.25 l of LOX can expand to 210 l of 100% O2 gas at 1atm, that still does not help. In what chamber does that expansion occur? Also, 100% O2 is not a viable gas for respiration (except in highly specialized situations with tight control of pressures and close monitoring).
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 06:05:10 am by mtdoc »
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #86 on: April 02, 2016, 05:57:16 am »
All their money got pulled/reset - new campaign. New one states further down that it has LO2 tanks. 

Click here to see IGG update
  (link for space reasons)

 :-DD
All of the new campaign still implies it gets the oxygen from the water.

Yeah so weird. The Lo2 part is buried in the middle of all the bs that caused the campaign to reset in the first place.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #87 on: April 02, 2016, 06:03:45 am »
LOX has an expansion ratio of 1:861 at atmospheric pressure. Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute.  210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.

I know nothing about LOX, but if what you are saying is that 0.25 l of LOX can expand to 210 l of 100% O2 gas at 1atm, that still does not help. In what chamber does that expansion occur? Also, 100% O2 is not a viable gas for respiration.

Their new campaign says the membrane is used as a heat exchange for the lo2 (phase change). Im guessing the pump or whatever is for metering, but have no idea. It's possible to use an orifice if you have the heat exchange rate  approximately correct.

The sites I was reading, if i'm understating them correctly, say you can breath 100% o2 at sea level (1.0 ppo2) for 12-16 hours before people start having problems with the toxic effects. Apparently diving standard is 1.4 ppo2 for regular usage and 1.6 for special or emergency usage. The allowable time decreases.

http://www.diverite.com/articles/oxygen-toxicity-signs-and-symptoms/ http://www.nitrox.com/nitrox-basics-oxygen-management-part-3.html http://precisiondiving.net/blog/how-to-calculate-partial-pressure-of-oxygen/
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 06:22:24 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #88 on: April 02, 2016, 06:26:35 am »

Their new campaign says the membrane is used as a heat exchange for the lo2 (phase change). Im guessing the pump or whatever is for metering, but have no idea. It's possible to use an orifice if you have the heat exchange rate  approximately correct.
The volume required is not going to be a constant. It will vary between individuals and depending in activity.

Quote
The sites I was reading, if i'm understating them correctly, say you can breath 100% o2 at sea level (1.0 ppo2) for 12-16 hours before toxic effects start. Apparently diving standard is 1.4 ppo2 for regular usage and 1.6 for special or emergency usage. The allowable time decreases.
It's true that under very specialized circunstances you can get away with breathing 100% O2 for short periods but it requires pretty tightly controlled parameters for pressure, etc to avoid toxicity. (I added that caveat to my post above). Higher pressures as needed to inflate the lungs underwater = more toxicity. I'm no expert on dive medicine but  I believe Navy Seal rebreathers use high O2 concentrations. I'm sure if it was possible to use such a James Bond like miniature device as this they would be doing that..

Even if they could solve the technical issues of using LOX at normal temperatures and then using it to provide the correct on demand volume of gas required for ventilation ( very unlikely IMO), do they really think they're going to get away selling a device that lets someone mess around breathing 100% O2 underwater?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 06:30:58 am by mtdoc »
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #89 on: April 02, 2016, 06:50:45 am »
Their new campaign says the membrane is used as a heat exchange for the lo2 (phase change). Im guessing the pump or whatever is for metering, but have no idea. It's possible to use an orifice if you have the heat exchange rate  approximately correct.

The volume required is not going to be a constant. It will vary between individuals and depending in activity.

True, if they have no metering the dive time would go way down and they would have a problem. However, they've said there s a pump in the device, I think it's for metering but don't know. Also their "demo" videos gives the impression of metering.

Quote
The sites I was reading, if i'm understating them correctly, say you can breath 100% o2 at sea level (1.0 ppo2) for 12-16 hours before toxic effects start. Apparently diving standard is 1.4 ppo2 for regular usage and 1.6 for special or emergency usage. The allowable time decreases.
It's true that under very specialized circunstances you can get away with breathing 100% O2 for short periods but it requires pretty tightly controlled parameters for pressure, etc to avoid toxicity. (I added that caveat to my post above). Higher pressures as needed to inflate the lungs underwater = more toxicity. I'm no expert on dive medicine but  I believe Navy Seal rebreathers use high O2 concentrations. I'm sure if it was possible to use such a James Bond like miniature device as this the would be doing that..
I accounted for the change of partial pressure (for 15 feet depth) in the calculations using the diving guidelines. It came out to 1.45 ppo2, which is still the allowable range.

The military units are much larger because they have mechanisms to maintain the allowable partial pressure across varying dive depths and probably other gas mixing stuff to prevent decompression problems. Their closed loop, so they have to scrub the co2 as well.


Even if they could solve the technical issues of using LOX at normal temperatures and then using it to provide the correct on demand volume of gas required for ventilation ( very unlikely IMO),
I dont have confidence in them at all. There are other LOX scuba equipment on the market and history (soviet), so it's not impossible to do..... but it's these guys no.

do they really think they're going to get away selling a device that lets someone mess around breathing 100% O2 underwater?

Ive been thinking about this as well.  The liabilities are huge.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 07:12:06 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #90 on: April 02, 2016, 07:09:22 am »
do they really think they're going to get away selling a device that lets someone mess around breathing 100% O2 underwater?

Ive been thinking about this as well.  The liabilities are huge.
They have to be able to sell it first, and I do not know how they are going to even distribute it.

They cannot mail liquid O2.

Perhaps everyone has to go to Sweden to collect it in person? Or it could be the Triton they say they will deliver will not include any O2.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 07:13:01 am by amspire »
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #91 on: April 02, 2016, 07:28:16 am »
They have to be able to sell it first, and I do not know how they are going to even distribute it.
They cannot mail liquid O2.
Perhaps everyone has to go to Sweden to collect it in person? Or it could be the Triton they say they will deliver will not include any O2.

As far as I can tell, they dont actually say that they will be shipping containers with the LOX actually in them, just that the containers can be used once and maybe multi-use in the future.... ::)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #92 on: April 02, 2016, 09:54:23 am »
You gotta wonder whether it ever used liquid oxygen to begin with, or whether it did try the ridiculous concept of getting it from the water (as their campaign still implies) and once they got called out, they got the last minute idea to use it not thinking through the obvious ridiculousness with the shipping restrictions.
Either way  :palm:
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #93 on: April 02, 2016, 04:26:09 pm »
You gotta wonder whether it ever used liquid oxygen to begin with, or whether it did try the ridiculous concept of getting it from the water (as their campaign still implies) and once they got called out, they got the last minute idea to use it not thinking through the obvious ridiculousness with the shipping restrictions.
Either way  :palm:

Or since they got called out on their first lie, they came up with a new lie just to keep the ball rolling for a while....
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #94 on: April 02, 2016, 05:08:55 pm »
You gotta wonder whether it ever used liquid oxygen to begin with, or whether it did try the ridiculous concept of getting it from the water (as their campaign still implies) and once they got called out, they got the last minute idea to use it not thinking through the obvious ridiculousness with the shipping restrictions.
Either way  :palm:

Or since they got called out on their first lie, they came up with a new lie just to keep the ball rolling for a while....

This is my vote
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #95 on: April 02, 2016, 05:24:22 pm »
You gotta wonder whether it ever used liquid oxygen to begin with, or whether it did try the ridiculous concept of getting it from the water (as their campaign still implies) and once they got called out, they got the last minute idea to use it not thinking through the obvious ridiculousness with the shipping restrictions.
Either way  :palm:

Or since they got called out on their first lie, they came up with a new lie just to keep the ball rolling for a while....

This is my vote

What crazy is they got caught with a near $1 million lie the first time around.... And yet Indiegogo still allows them on the platform.... even with basically the same promo garbage.
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #96 on: April 02, 2016, 05:25:32 pm »
Their new campaign says the membrane is used as a heat exchange for the lo2 (phase change). Im guessing the pump or whatever is for metering, but have no idea. It's possible to use an orifice if you have the heat exchange rate  approximately correct.

The volume required is not going to be a constant. It will vary between individuals and depending in activity.

True, if they have no metering the dive time would go way down and they would have a problem. However, they've said there s a pump in the device, I think it's for metering but don't know. Also their "demo" videos gives the impression of metering.

Quote
The sites I was reading, if i'm understating them correctly, say you can breath 100% o2 at sea level (1.0 ppo2) for 12-16 hours before toxic effects start. Apparently diving standard is 1.4 ppo2 for regular usage and 1.6 for special or emergency usage. The allowable time decreases.
It's true that under very specialized circunstances you can get away with breathing 100% O2 for short periods but it requires pretty tightly controlled parameters for pressure, etc to avoid toxicity. (I added that caveat to my post above). Higher pressures as needed to inflate the lungs underwater = more toxicity. I'm no expert on dive medicine but  I believe Navy Seal rebreathers use high O2 concentrations. I'm sure if it was possible to use such a James Bond like miniature device as this the would be doing that..
I accounted for the change of partial pressure (for 15 feet depth) in the calculations using the diving guidelines. It came out to 1.45 ppo2, which is still the allowable range.

The military units are much larger because they have mechanisms to maintain the allowable partial pressure across varying dive depths and probably other gas mixing stuff to prevent decompression problems. Their closed loop, so they have to scrub the co2 as well.


Even if they could solve the technical issues of using LOX at normal temperatures and then using it to provide the correct on demand volume of gas required for ventilation ( very unlikely IMO),
I dont have confidence in them at all. There are other LOX scuba equipment on the market and history (soviet), so it's not impossible to do..... but it's these guys no.

do they really think they're going to get away selling a device that lets someone mess around breathing 100% O2 underwater?

Ive been thinking about this as well.  The liabilities are huge.

It might be possible to build a device using LOX, but that device wouldn't use shippable prefilled cylinders. You would have to fill on site, from a proper cryogenic storage system. Liquid oxygen is incredibly dangerous, and not easily available to your average consumer. The easiest way to get it is to accidentally condense it when working with LN2, which can lead to spontaneous fires/explosions.

There was a team working on an amateur-built LOX-rubber hybrid rocket motor. They had issues initially with the LOX spontaneously combusting when contacting residual organics in their fill system, though they clued up and got oxygen-safe parts pretty quickly.

This isn't the sort of thing you're going to haul down to your local gas station to fill like you would a propane tank.

I wonder if its possible they are using some other liquid, and depending on a chemical reaction to produce O2. Chemical oxygen generators are pretty old tech, and they get very hot, possibly requiring a heat exchanger. If you remember the big ValueJet crash in 1996, that was caused by an accidental initiation of an improperly stored oxygen generator, which started a fire (and then fed it with oxygen). Maybe the whole heat exchanger thing is more BS, to explain away why it gets hot without revealing how it works.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 05:36:24 pm by Nerull »
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #97 on: April 02, 2016, 07:04:30 pm »
It might be possible to build a device using LOX, but that device wouldn't use shippable prefilled cylinders. You would have to fill on site, from a proper cryogenic storage system. Liquid oxygen is incredibly dangerous, and not easily available to your average consumer. The easiest way to get it is to accidentally condense it when working with LN2, which can lead to spontaneous fires/explosions.

There was a team working on an amateur-built LOX-rubber hybrid rocket motor. They had issues initially with the LOX spontaneously combusting when contacting residual organics in their fill system, though they clued up and got oxygen-safe parts pretty quickly.

This isn't the sort of thing you're going to haul down to your local gas station to fill like you would a propane tank.
lox is definitely dangerous....it's 100% oxidizer and continuously vents....
I wonder if its possible they are using some other liquid, and depending on a chemical reaction to produce O2. Chemical oxygen generators are pretty old tech, and they get very hot, possibly requiring a heat exchanger. If you remember the big ValueJet crash in 1996, that was caused by an accidental initiation of an improperly stored oxygen generator, which started a fire (and then fed it with oxygen). Maybe the whole heat exchanger thing is more BS, to explain away why it gets hot without revealing how it works.

This is actually totally possible. In there campaign video they say "a connector that has a special compound on the inside, that blends the oxygen with the compound by chemical way".  That does sound like some sort of chem generator, catalyst, reactor. (I previously thought it had something do with their "gill" concept as catalysts or something to the membrane contactor, co2 scrubber etc). They say 'liquid oxygen' in there campaign (no quotes), but in there update feed they say "liquid oxygen"  (with the quotes). So if it's not really true liquid oxygen, what else could it be?

One possibility is liquid nitrous oxide. That is shippable and storable at room temp. Has an expansion ratio of over 600. Can be separated into 66% N2 and 33% O2 via a catalyst (which is pretty close to ideal). Membrane could handle liquid to gas conversion.......Problem is.... it's patented http://www.google.ch/patents/US20020056451
« Last Edit: April 02, 2016, 07:41:52 pm by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline timb

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #98 on: April 02, 2016, 11:10:43 pm »
Yeah but, how much breathable air can you really get out of small canister like that? Consider those small canisters of NiOx used in whip cream dispensers. *They'll give you two, maybe three complete lung inhales per canister. Now, I know this is liquid NiOx we're talking about, but I can't imagine it being that much more efficient.

*I mean, so I've been told...I would never do Whipits...Drugs are bad, stay in school kids.
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Offline MadTux

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #99 on: April 03, 2016, 12:23:48 am »
You could use chemical oxygen generators, like catalytic decomposition of hydrogen peroxide or sodium peroxide:
2 H2O2 =MnO2=> 2H2O + O2

Or use pyrotechnic oxygen candles, like those used on ISS. Best oxygen/weight ratio apart from LOX, they are mostly lithium perchlorate mixed with a little fuel, so that it burns hot enough to decompose the lithium perchlorate into lithium chloride and oxygen :
2 LiClO4 =heat=> 2LiCl + 4O2

But all this is very expensive, dangerous and a potential fire hazard. So just as inpractical for common use as the LOX variant.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #100 on: April 03, 2016, 12:29:50 am »
Yeah but, how much breathable air can you really get out of small canister like that? Consider those small canisters of NiOx used in whip cream dispensers. *They'll give you two, maybe three complete lung inhales per canister. Now, I know this is liquid NiOx we're talking about, but I can't imagine it being that much more efficient.

*I mean, so I've been told...I would never do Whipits...Drugs are bad, stay in school kids.

Calculated that earlier, but for LO2. LNO2 has a bit less expansion, but it would still be usable (75% of lo2). The bigger thing is that the catalyzer would have to be 100% efficient, otherwise the person would be breathing some No2

In diving, oxygen partial pressure is usually considered safe at around 1.4 ppo2 or below for non extended duration dive times (http://www.diverite.com/articles/oxygen-toxicity-signs-and-symptoms/ http://www.nitrox.com/nitrox-basics-oxygen-management-part-3.html http://precisiondiving.net/blog/how-to-calculate-partial-pressure-of-oxygen/). At 15ft and 100% o2 the ppo2 is around 1.45 for seawater and less for fresh water.

LOX has an expansion ratio of 1:861 at atmospheric pressure. Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute.  210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 12:37:54 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #101 on: April 03, 2016, 12:33:57 am »
I gather that Liquid 02 doesn't exist above -118 deg C. If you charge a cylinder with liquid oxygen at -200 deg C and let the temperature rise to room temperature, it will be a supercritical fluid - apparently that is the state when there is no difference between a gaseous state and a fluid state, but it is definitely not a liquid.

I think with practical pressures, you can only have compressed gaseous oxygen. I would hate to think what pressures you would get in the cylinders from supercritical oxygen in the boot of a car on a really hot sunny day.

If by "Liquid Oxygen", they just use liquid oxygen to partially fill a cylinder, and then let it warm up to a compressed gas state, then to ship by air, you need an expensive ATA-300 Category 1 case to ship the cylinders. This is a legal requirement particularly in the US.



Unless, of course, you are scuba diving on the moon Titan where the temperatures are perfect for bottled liquid oxygen and they have all those great methane lakes. The Triton is the perfect device for recreational diving on Titan.

One of the many things that really do not make sense is that if this product was close to production, they would have done thousand of hours of testing. They would have had no end of full uninterrupted 45 minute video clips of test divers swimming around underwater. They could show someone inserting the cylinders, and then doing a full dive. Instead, they had to actually rent a pool just to do the most recent clip where a diver managed to stay underwater for 7 minutes (something like that) with no activity. There is nothing to indicate that any functioning prototype exists.

All they have proven is that they have made an object that resembles the CAD renders and it can make nice bubbles.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 12:44:19 am by amspire »
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #102 on: April 03, 2016, 12:42:16 am »
I gather that Liquid 02 doesn't exist above -118 deg C. If you charge a cylinder with liquid oxygen at -200 deg C and let the temperature rise to room temperature, it will be a supercritical fluid - apparently that is the state when there is no difference between a gaseous state and a fluid state, but it is definitely not a liquid.

I think with practical pressures, you can only have compressed gaseous oxygen. I would hate to think what pressures you would get in the cylinders from supercritical oxygen in the boot of a car on a really hot sunny day.

If by "Liquid Oxygen", they just use liquid oxygen to partially fill a cylinder, and then let it warm up to a compressed gas state, then to ship by air, you need an expensive ATA-300 Category 1 case to ship the cylinders. This is a legal requirement particularly in the US.

Unless, of course, you are scuba diving on the moon Titan where the temperatures are perfect for bottled liquid oxygen and they have all those great methane lakes. The Triton is the perfect device for recreational diving on Titan.

One of the many things that really doesn't make sense is that if this product was close to production, they would have done thousand of hours of testing. They would have had no end of full uninterrupted 45 minute video clips of test divers swimming around underwater. They could show someone inserting the cylinders, and then doing a full dive. Instead, they had to actually rent a pool just to do the most recent clip where a diver managed to stay underwater for 7 minutes (something like that) with no activity. There is nothing to indicate that any functioning prototype exists.

All they have proven is that they have made an object that resembles the CAD renders and it can make nice bubbles.

I think the project is technically possible but practically impossible for general consumers. LNO2 might be more practical, but it's patented. I also do think it's within their technical, and probably business, abilities. Then liabilities...good luck

On the video, there is a newer one. It is really bizarre how it was setup and filmed imo.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 12:49:25 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #103 on: April 03, 2016, 01:04:37 am »

I think the project is technically possible but practically impossible for consumers. LNO2 might be more practical, but it's patented. I also do think it's within there technical, and probably business, abilities. Then there's liabilities...good luck

On the video, there is a newer one. It is really bizarre how it was setup and filmed.

He actually stayed underwater for 12 minutes - I thought it was less, but I never watched the whole thing. They didn't show him surfacing, so we never saw if he had to gasp for air or not. Since we also didn't see him dive, we do not know if he used hyperventilating before the dive. The record time for holding breath underwater is 22 minutes.

Why didn't he stay underwater for 45 minutes? With no activity, he could probably stay underwater for twice that - if the Triton was working.

I read about the LNO2 and it would be extremely difficult to make something so small. The splitting of the NO happens between 400degC and 900degC. You can use a catalyst to get the reaction starting at 150 degC but the temperature rises once the reaction starts. There are dangerous and corrosive by-products that need to be converted with a platinum catalyst. What happens if the membrane ruptures and you start breathing pure nitrous oxide? What happens if the pump fails and you start sucking in air at 400 deg C? What happens if you take this thing out of the water while it is on?

They would be asking recreational users to swim around with an experimental high temperature chemical factory in their mouths.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:12:26 am by amspire »
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #104 on: April 03, 2016, 01:12:30 am »

I think the project is technically possible but practically impossible for consumers. LNO2 might be more practical, but it's patented. I also do think it's within there technical, and probably business, abilities. Then there's liabilities...good luck

On the video, there is a newer one. It is really bizarre how it was setup and filmed.
He actually stayed underwater for 12 minutes - I thought it was less, but I never watched the whole thing. They didn't show him surfacing, so we never saw if he had to gasp for air or not. Since we also didn't see him dive, we do not know if he used hyperventilating before the dive. The record time for holding breath underwater is 22 minutes.

I also don't like the angle of the shot, and the fact he's wearing a full mask. I think it would be possible to run a line from behind the head, next to the strap and into the mask. Then inhale through nose. Don't know though.

Also he seems uncomfortable to me, especially towards the end.

I read about the LNO2 and it would be extremely difficult to make something so small. The splitting of the NO happens between 400degC and 900degC. You can use a catalyst to get the reaction starting at 150 degC but the temperature rises once the reaction starts. There are dangerous and corrosive by-products that need to be converted with a platinum catalyst. What happens if the membrane ruptures and you start breathing pure nitrous oxide? What happens if the pump fails and you start sucking in air at 400 deg C? What happens if you take this thing out of the water while it is on?

They would be asking recreational users to swim around with an experimental high temperature chemical factory in their mouths.
I agree it's problematic but I dont think impossible. If I read the patent correctly the patent says the size of the reactor is 1in, but everything else is definitely not in favor. Apparently it generates enough heat, the patent covers heating of the dive suit. The other thing is that the patent speaks of hallow fiber membrane, which is what Triton says it has as well....

edited
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:26:27 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #105 on: April 03, 2016, 01:17:34 am »
Had another look at the video. Can anyone actually see his chest moving at all? Just try breathing without moving your chest noticeably. It is not easy.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:19:56 am by amspire »
 

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #106 on: April 03, 2016, 01:40:14 am »
Had another look at the video. Can anyone actually see his chest moving at all? Just try breathing without moving your chest noticeably. It is not easy.

I can't.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:51:00 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #107 on: April 03, 2016, 01:52:02 am »
The breathing rate is off I think too. Lower end for resting on land is 12bpm, resting diver is typically 16bpm,.. he's doing like 6-7 bpm. The volume seems really excessive too
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #108 on: April 03, 2016, 04:30:36 am »
I am not sure if someone has mentioned it already (probably) but there are already companies making small tanks of compressed air for diving use:

http://spareair.com/

So even IF the Triton product was technically possible (it isn't), then what purpose does it have to exist?  LOx is strictly controlled and dangerous, and the system Triton proposes uses disposable bottles anyway - so what advantage does it have over existing air systems?  Triton's proposal is more dangerous, MUCH more complex and would have to be dramatically more expensive.  Why would anyone ever entertain the idea of using any sort of chemicals or LOx or anything of the sort, when you can just take existing air and compress that and do away with the complexity and cost of all the crap Triton is claiming?


As far as the video goes, the fact that the guy doesn't move is highly suspicious.  If the system worked as they say, you would demonstrate it working and be swimming around underwater.  Even from a boredom standpoint, who wants to just sit there?  The only reason he would is because there is another reason - such as a concealed tank.  It's difficult but not impossible to breathe at that depth using lungs, so perhaps he has a small clear tube taped to the side of his face - you'd never notice it from the video. 

One other thing about the video - I am sure nobody believes the device on the guy's face is using LOx and a "gill" type system to some how generate air for the guy.  That means the video was made and is shown in furtherance of fraud.  They are outright deceiving people using a falsified video to show something that isn't true.  The legal term is "Fraud by Deception" in the USA and it's a criminal act.   The government and law enforcement really need to step in on these scams and at least show they are taking an interest.  These guys have over $200k and it will likely go much higher if IGG does nothing to stop it. 
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Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #109 on: April 03, 2016, 04:36:39 am »
I gather that Liquid 02 doesn't exist above -118 deg C. If you charge a cylinder with liquid oxygen at -200 deg C and let the temperature rise to room temperature, it will be a supercritical fluid - apparently that is the state when there is no difference between a gaseous state and a fluid state, but it is definitely not a liquid.

I think with practical pressures, you can only have compressed gaseous oxygen. I would hate to think what pressures you would get in the cylinders from supercritical oxygen in the boot of a car on a really hot sunny day.

If by "Liquid Oxygen", they just use liquid oxygen to partially fill a cylinder, and then let it warm up to a compressed gas state, then to ship by air, you need an expensive ATA-300 Category 1 case to ship the cylinders. This is a legal requirement particularly in the US.



Unless, of course, you are scuba diving on the moon Titan where the temperatures are perfect for bottled liquid oxygen and they have all those great methane lakes. The Triton is the perfect device for recreational diving on Titan.

One of the many things that really do not make sense is that if this product was close to production, they would have done thousand of hours of testing. They would have had no end of full uninterrupted 45 minute video clips of test divers swimming around underwater. They could show someone inserting the cylinders, and then doing a full dive. Instead, they had to actually rent a pool just to do the most recent clip where a diver managed to stay underwater for 7 minutes (something like that) with no activity. There is nothing to indicate that any functioning prototype exists.

All they have proven is that they have made an object that resembles the CAD renders and it can make nice bubbles.



These are liquid nitrogen tanks. They're vacuum insulated cryogenic storage tanks, similar to those used to store liquid oxygen. The contents are kept cold through constant vaporization, and that gas must be vented so that pressure doesn't climb too high.

You may notice that one of the tanks looks a bit odd. Someone decided to fix a defective vent by welding it shut. Someone else had previously decided to fix a failed pressure burst disk by welding it shut. Over a long weekend pressure built up in the tank until it launched itself through a concrete floor and cracked a structural beam in the floor above, then blew out all the walls of the room above.

You really don't want to let cryogenic liquids warm up in a sealed vessel....
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #110 on: April 03, 2016, 05:25:59 am »
I am not sure if someone has mentioned it already (probably) but there are already companies making small tanks of compressed air for diving use:

http://spareair.com/

So even IF the Triton product was technically possible (it isn't), then what purpose does it have to exist?  LOx is strictly controlled and dangerous, and the system Triton proposes uses disposable bottles anyway - so what advantage does it have over existing air systems?  Triton's proposal is more dangerous, MUCH more complex and would have to be dramatically more expensive.  Why would anyone ever entertain the idea of using any sort of chemicals or LOx or anything of the sort, when you can just take existing air and compress that and do away with the complexity and cost of all the crap Triton is claiming?

As far as the video goes, the fact that the guy doesn't move is highly suspicious.  If the system worked as they say, you would demonstrate it working and be swimming around underwater.  Even from a boredom standpoint, who wants to just sit there?  The only reason he would is because there is another reason - such as a concealed tank.  It's difficult but not impossible to breathe at that depth using lungs, so perhaps he has a small clear tube taped to the side of his face - you'd never notice it from the video. 

One other thing about the video - I am sure nobody believes the device on the guy's face is using LOx and a "gill" type system to some how generate air for the guy.  That means the video was made and is shown in furtherance of fraud.  They are outright deceiving people using a falsified video to show something that isn't true.  The legal term is "Fraud by Deception" in the USA and it's a criminal act.   The government and law enforcement really need to step in on these scams and at least show they are taking an interest.  These guys have over $200k and it will likely go much higher if IGG does nothing to stop it.

Problem is the breathing time. Even the large one of those cylinders has something like 5-6 minute and maybe 10 if youre not moving

I do think LO2 is possible to do and LNO2 is plausible to do. LNO2 is much more complicated and has safety problems amspire mentioned, but would be more convenient for a consumer since the LNO2 can be shipped. The LO2 I don't think is technically that difficult to do, but LO2 transport and handling is much more dangerous/difficult. LO2 actually doesn't have much regulation for individuals from what I can tell, other than transport.

I don't know what to make of the video but highly suspicious of it. They are in Sweden, so I wonder what their laws are like there.

I am really surprised the campaign came back after the first one ended. The original was pretty deceptive, IGG should have banned them but hasn't for some reason     $^).......
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #111 on: April 03, 2016, 05:31:22 am »
I gather that Liquid 02 doesn't exist above -118 deg C. If you charge a cylinder with liquid oxygen at -200 deg C and let the temperature rise to room temperature, it will be a supercritical fluid - apparently that is the state when there is no difference between a gaseous state and a fluid state, but it is definitely not a liquid.

I think with practical pressures, you can only have compressed gaseous oxygen. I would hate to think what pressures you would get in the cylinders from supercritical oxygen in the boot of a car on a really hot sunny day.

If by "Liquid Oxygen", they just use liquid oxygen to partially fill a cylinder, and then let it warm up to a compressed gas state, then to ship by air, you need an expensive ATA-300 Category 1 case to ship the cylinders. This is a legal requirement particularly in the US.

Unless, of course, you are scuba diving on the moon Titan where the temperatures are perfect for bottled liquid oxygen and they have all those great methane lakes. The Triton is the perfect device for recreational diving on Titan.

One of the many things that really do not make sense is that if this product was close to production, they would have done thousand of hours of testing. They would have had no end of full uninterrupted 45 minute video clips of test divers swimming around underwater. They could show someone inserting the cylinders, and then doing a full dive. Instead, they had to actually rent a pool just to do the most recent clip where a diver managed to stay underwater for 7 minutes (something like that) with no activity. There is nothing to indicate that any functioning prototype exists.

All they have proven is that they have made an object that resembles the CAD renders and it can make nice bubbles.

These are liquid nitrogen tanks. They're vacuum insulated cryogenic storage tanks, similar to those used to store liquid oxygen. The contents are kept cold through constant vaporization, and that gas must be vented so that pressure doesn't climb too high.

You may notice that one of the tanks looks a bit odd. Someone decided to fix a defective vent by welding it shut. Someone else had previously decided to fix a failed pressure burst disk by welding it shut. Over a long weekend pressure built up in the tank until it launched itself through a concrete floor and cracked a structural beam in the floor above, then blew out all the walls of the room above.

You really don't want to let cryogenic liquids warm up in a sealed vessel....

This is why you can't reasonably ship it to people. They have to be transported with venting. Even if it could last through transport and not end-up with an empty bottle, LO2 is 100% pure oxidizer and vents continuously in containers, so transporting is regulated.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #112 on: April 03, 2016, 06:18:49 am »
It is very simple. Liquid Oxygen does not exist above -118 degrees C, so it is not possible for Triton to use Liquid Oxygen. They cannot be using cryogenic containers, because they are only useful when the contents are at cryogenic temperatures.

If Triton are again being misleading to "protect their patent applications", then they probably should restart their fundraising for a third time. Better still, wait until there is a product.

There is still no sign of an actually working prototype. The latest video is not at all convincing, and the thing in the diver's mouth could be a couple of bits of black poly irrigation tubing stuck into a block of black plasticine for all I can see.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 06:21:41 am by amspire »
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #113 on: April 03, 2016, 07:08:18 am »
It is very simple. Liquid Oxygen does not exist above -118 degrees C, so it is not possible for Triton to use Liquid Oxygen. They cannot be using cryogenic containers, because they are only useful when the contents are at cryogenic temperatures.

If Triton are again being misleading to "protect their patent applications", then they probably should restart their fundraising for a third time. Better still, wait until there is a product.

There is still no sign of an actually working prototype. The latest video is not at all convincing, and the thing in the diver's mouth could be a couple of bits of black poly irrigation tubing stuck into a block of black plasticine for all I can see.

You can certainly keep lo2 in a container, but there will be a boil-off rate depending on pressure and how well the container is insulated.
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #114 on: April 03, 2016, 08:31:16 am »
On the campaign page: "portable, convenient for travel"



Yes, but with these canisters, your luggage won't fly with you  ;)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #115 on: April 03, 2016, 12:22:26 pm »
On the video, there is a newer one. It is really bizarre how it was setup and filmed imo.

Yes, very controlled. You don't see him move position, or enter the water, or exit the water.
All the hallmarks of a staged event rather than a proper demo, totally the opposite to what you want if you wanted to prove it to the skeptics.
The prestidigitation is strong in this one.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #116 on: April 03, 2016, 12:31:00 pm »
Comments on the video are moderated too.
No negative comments at all, and you would expect that based on the very high ratio of thumbs down.
 

Offline jancumps

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #117 on: April 03, 2016, 12:41:37 pm »
This is one of those days where I think that crowd funding platforms are digging their own hole.
High profile campaigns are debunked by people that are domain experts within hours. In particular the 'Projects we Love' and 'Editor's Choice' ones.

Crowd funding is great. But if the platforms keep on avoiding due diligence - and pointing to the disclaimers and terms of condition- we're heading to a meltdown.

If you make that much money on your platform, get experts aligned that can perform that bullshit check.
Genuine good projects will not be able to get funded because people are about to get put down by the jokers.
And I think that the IndieGoGo and KickStarter staff are not up to the task.
Yes, they're up to the task of asking their share.
No, They're not up to the task of filtering out the blatant impossible projects.
That's not enough, if crowdfunding is your core business.
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #118 on: April 03, 2016, 12:55:58 pm »
It is very simple. Liquid Oxygen does not exist above -118 degrees C, so it is not possible for Triton to use Liquid Oxygen. They cannot be using cryogenic containers, because they are only useful when the contents are at cryogenic temperatures.

Where is the problem, you can store it as superheated vapor, what O2 at 1atm / 20deg C is, or supercritical fluid.
Here you can buy some http://www.ebay.com/bhp/oxygen-tank
They are "normally" filled with up to 200 bar = supercritical fluid.

However I would not try to breath pure O2!

Phase diagram of oxygen in the p-T space.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:03:01 pm by Kalidor »
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Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #119 on: April 03, 2016, 01:15:30 pm »
Supercritical O2 is not the same as Liquid O2. Triton say they are using Liquid O2.

A cylinder of compressed supercritical O2 will have something like 1/5th the capacity as the same volume of liquid O2. Oxygen has no liquid state above the critical point at -118 deg C.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:17:36 pm by amspire »
 

Offline wraper

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #120 on: April 03, 2016, 01:36:58 pm »
Comments on the video are moderated too.
No negative comments at all, and you would expect that based on the very high ratio of thumbs down.
Yes it is, I can see some of what they deleted through google notifications because I commented before.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:39:39 pm by wraper »
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #121 on: April 03, 2016, 02:43:55 pm »
It is very simple. Liquid Oxygen does not exist above -118 degrees C, so it is not possible for Triton to use Liquid Oxygen. They cannot be using cryogenic containers, because they are only useful when the contents are at cryogenic temperatures.

Where is the problem, you can store it as superheated vapor, what O2 at 1atm / 20deg C is, or supercritical fluid.
Here you can buy some http://www.ebay.com/bhp/oxygen-tank
They are "normally" filled with up to 200 bar = supercritical fluid.

However I would not try to breath pure O2!

Phase diagram of oxygen in the p-T space.


Those are GOX tanks, not LOX tanks. They contain no liquid, and can hold far less. You can already buy small breathing gas cylinders, there would be precisely nothing new there. But they aren't going to last 45 minutes.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 02:48:50 pm by Nerull »
 

Offline altaic

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #122 on: April 03, 2016, 05:16:24 pm »
The breathing rate is off I think too. Lower end for resting on land is 12bpm, resting diver is typically 16bpm,.. he's doing like 6-7 bpm. The volume seems really excessive too

Yes, very controlled. You don't see him move position, or enter the water, or exit the water.
All the hallmarks of a staged event rather than a proper demo, totally the opposite to what you want if you wanted to prove it to the skeptics.
The prestidigitation is strong in this one.

Free divers are trained to control their metabolism and breathing. In the static apnea discipline, where the diver basically meditates near the surface in a pool, people have lasted for over ten minutes with no air. Pretty sure that's what's happening here as far as lasting for a long time on a very small O2 supply. Dodgy marketing indeed.

Re. O2 at 20C, yeah it's supercritical. Thought gaseous O2 was dangerous? Hah, there's no way in hell anybody would carry supercritical oxygen around, let alone ship it, for recreation. Of course, that's unless they've come up with a better storage method, a la forcing hydrogen into a metal matrix to control expansion. Unfortunately, O2 and metal don't really get along...
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 05:18:38 pm by altaic »
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #123 on: April 03, 2016, 10:41:55 pm »
Problem is the breathing time. Even the large one of those cylinders has something like 5-6 minute and maybe 10 if youre not moving

I do think LO2 is possible to do and LNO2 is plausible to do. LNO2 is much more complicated and has safety problems amspire mentioned, but would be more convenient for a consumer since the LNO2 can be shipped. The LO2 I don't think is technically that difficult to do, but LO2 transport and handling is much more dangerous/difficult. LO2 actually doesn't have much regulation for individuals from what I can tell, other than transport.

I don't know what to make of the video but highly suspicious of it. They are in Sweden, so I wonder what their laws are like there.

I am really surprised the campaign came back after the first one ended. The original was pretty deceptive, IGG should have banned them but hasn't for some reason     $^).......

Yes, the breathing time of the spare air units is less, however, the Triton system is strapped to your face, whereas a tank doesn't need to be.  The weight of the tank is a non-issue because in water, you don't feel the weight... and size isn't an issue unless you're in tight places, which would be absolutely insanity with a system like Triton (even if it worked).  So what is the benefit of Triton over a compressed air system?  With air, you can literally just connect it to your existing air tank and fill it.  Around here, an 80-120 cu-ft tank costs $5 to fill, and there are lots of places to choose from anywhere that you might want to go diving. 

For LO2... how would they get around the storage/hazard issue?  Maybe I am wrong but it seems that is a pretty extreme use case for LO2... being in the sun, being bounced around on a boat, being in water.  That seems to be pretty huge temperature swings and LO2 is problematic (at best) to store/transport even in much tighter controlled conditions, no?  As for LNO2, you can already get your air tanks filled with "Nitrox" for diving... so that goes back to me not really seeing what Triton's system supposedly brings to the table?  They talk about some sort of chemical oxygen generation and liquid oxygen "working in conjunction with gills" (whatever that means) - so at best it's quite a complicated setup compared to just taking a tank that just needs a regulator and that's it. 

So even if it could work, the only benefit they are offering is a smaller size, but at (significantly) higher cost and less reliability and much more dangerous.  I just can't understand the backers mindset.

It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #124 on: April 03, 2016, 10:50:34 pm »
This is one of those days where I think that crowd funding platforms are digging their own hole.
High profile campaigns are debunked by people that are domain experts within hours. In particular the 'Projects we Love' and 'Editor's Choice' ones.

Crowd funding is great. But if the platforms keep on avoiding due diligence - and pointing to the disclaimers and terms of condition- we're heading to a meltdown.

If you make that much money on your platform, get experts aligned that can perform that bullshit check.
Genuine good projects will not be able to get funded because people are about to get put down by the jokers.
And I think that the IndieGoGo and KickStarter staff are not up to the task.
Yes, they're up to the task of asking their share.
No, They're not up to the task of filtering out the blatant impossible projects.
That's not enough, if crowdfunding is your core business.

Side note: I read an article somewhere, I believe it was recent news, that Kickstarter was hiring an in-house "project feasibility guru", whose job was to assess whether a project was a scam or based on junk science or claims.

I believe it was in response to a Kickstarter project for "washing machine balls", which was an old scam from decades who where plastic balls put into your washing machine were claimed to change the molecules of water and create hydrogen peroxide, eliminating the need for detergent.

I read the comments and they were pathetically funny... dumb backers saying "I have been using these for a few weeks and I don't think they work.  I have friends and coworkers saying I smell and when I tell them I wash clothes regularly, they ask if I am using detergent!".

In this case, I can't see how IGG doesn't have liability.  They were notified that the project was essentially a scam, and they clearly got in touch with Triton and told them they can't keep it up in the manner they did.  So they've demonstrated an interest and effort in filtering out outright scams.  However, it's a fact that LOx can't work if only due to it not existing above -118c, and surely IGG has seen this in the comments and been notified of it by users.  Yet they continue to allow the project to continue.

To me, that's tantamount to willful participation in the scam.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #125 on: April 04, 2016, 12:23:35 am »
Yes, the breathing time of the spare air units is less, however, the Triton system is strapped to your face, whereas a tank doesn't need to be.  The weight of the tank is a non-issue because in water, you don't feel the weight... and size isn't an issue unless you're in tight places, which would be absolutely insanity with a system like Triton (even if it worked).  So what is the benefit of Triton over a compressed air system?  With air, you can literally just connect it to your existing air tank and fill it.  Around here, an 80-120 cu-ft tank costs $5 to fill, and there are lots of places to choose from anywhere that you might want to go diving. 

Suppose the thing somehow works... then buy in cost (I doubt someone could purchase a complete SCUBA setup for $299 with similar dive time), size, 'coolness factor'.   

For LO2... how would they get around the storage/hazard issue?  Maybe I am wrong but it seems that is a pretty extreme use case for LO2... being in the sun, being bounced around on a boat, being in water.  That seems to be pretty huge temperature swings and LO2 is problematic (at best) to store/transport even in much tighter controlled conditions, no? 

Youve probably seen people walking around with lo2, something like this Lo2 Portable Storage. This is a medical device with additional regulating components but has a similar storage volume they would need and has a storage time of 9 hours. Being a medical device, it costs $1,000 but the dewar inside of it probably costs a fraction of that (but I dont really know).

Lo2, your always going to end up less than when you start (unless you somehow keep the temps way down with another cryo fluid or device), but you can get the boil off rate fairly low with good insulation and some pressure; you'd have to bring more than you're going to use and you'd probably have to use it somewhat quickly but it can be done.

Actually getting the lo2 is a whole other problem and I doubt you could do it at a reasonable cost except for local pickup from supply houses.

As for LNO2, you can already get your air tanks filled with "Nitrox" for diving... so that goes back to me not really seeing what Triton's system supposedly brings to the table?  They talk about some sort of chemical oxygen generation and liquid oxygen "working in conjunction with gills" (whatever that means) - so at best it's quite a complicated setup compared to just taking a tank that just needs a regulator and that's it. 

So even if it could work, the only benefit they are offering is a smaller size, but at (significantly) higher cost and less reliability and much more dangerous.  I just can't understand the backers mindset.
Supposed the lno2 system actually works (and supposed it is what their system is) at the price and form-factor they're advertising. Then for the LNO2 system it would have some pretty major advantages for a consumer. Cost is the big one, compactness, coolness, shippable consumables... are all factors generally important to consumer. 


Also..why not just make a more advanced snorkel? Were talking 15ft..  Float on top of water, possibly pump/compressor, some valves, run a line or two down.....swim for hours or more... and probably could be done for $299.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 12:25:32 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline altaic

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #126 on: April 04, 2016, 01:31:53 am »
Also..why not just make a more advanced snorkel? Were talking 15ft..  Float on top of water, possibly pump/compressor, some valves, run a line or two down.....swim for hours or more... and probably could be done for $299.

Those have existed for a long time-- at least since the 80s. Basically an inner tube with a dive flag sticking up, a compressor, and a long hose with a regulator attached. They used to be pretty huge, with a gas powered compressor and such, but they're probably small and electric now. Maybe even solar powered. *shrug* Definitely not the James Bond kind of awesome this company is trying to claim.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #127 on: April 04, 2016, 02:15:49 am »
Also..why not just make a more advanced snorkel? Were talking 15ft..  Float on top of water, possibly pump/compressor, some valves, run a line or two down.....swim for hours or more... and probably could be done for $299.

Those have existed for a long time-- at least since the 80s. Basically an inner tube with a dive flag sticking up, a compressor, and a long hose with a regulator attached. They used to be pretty huge, with a gas powered compressor and such, but they're probably small and electric now. Maybe even solar powered. *shrug* Definitely not the James Bond kind of awesome this company is trying to claim.

I see them. They do look dorky but much more functional I think. Someone could probably do a smaller version and get the price down... right now in the thousands
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #128 on: April 04, 2016, 10:37:47 am »
ThunderfOOt to the rescue!


But his video is out of date the moment it was posted. Needs another one to keep up with the new liquid oxygen BS  :bullshit:
 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #129 on: April 04, 2016, 11:23:58 am »
This scheme is very clever: never one single customer complaint or return.





The customer drowned at the first tryout.
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #130 on: April 04, 2016, 02:17:03 pm »

Side note: I read an article somewhere, I believe it was recent news, that Kickstarter was hiring an in-house "project feasibility guru", whose job was to assess whether a project was a scam or based on junk science or claims.

I believe it was in response to a Kickstarter project for "washing machine balls", which was an old scam from decades who where plastic balls put into your washing machine were claimed to change the molecules of water and create hydrogen peroxide, eliminating the need for detergent.

I read the comments and they were pathetically funny... dumb backers saying "I have been using these for a few weeks and I don't think they work.  I have friends and coworkers saying I smell and when I tell them I wash clothes regularly, they ask if I am using detergent!".

In this case, I can't see how IGG doesn't have liability.  They were notified that the project was essentially a scam, and they clearly got in touch with Triton and told them they can't keep it up in the manner they did.  So they've demonstrated an interest and effort in filtering out outright scams.  However, it's a fact that LOx can't work if only due to it not existing above -118c, and surely IGG has seen this in the comments and been notified of it by users.  Yet they continue to allow the project to continue.

To me, that's tantamount to willful participation in the scam.

IGG has absolutely no reason to vet any of these projects, even if they KNOW they are 100% scams.  As long as contributions pour in, IGG takes their cut.  That is why IGG has the "Flexible funding" model, where the campaigner gets the cash whether or not the campaign is "Successful".  IGG can only take their cut, if they disburse funds.  Once that happens, it is between the backer and the campaigner. 

Even if you bring lawsuits, IGG is absolved from any and all wrongdoing.  They are the ones that are really the scammers.  That is why IGG takes (Even begs for) projects that KS removes; they are living off of PT Barnums "One A Minute" and laughing all the way to the bank.

KS at least tries to prevent outright fraud, but even so, people need to really think about what they are considering backing.  If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #131 on: April 04, 2016, 02:41:10 pm »
If IGG keeps this up no-one will take any of their cases serious anymore: ergo out of business.
It is in their own best interest to at least pretend to care  ;)
 

Offline meeder

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #132 on: April 04, 2016, 05:07:59 pm »
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #133 on: April 04, 2016, 07:03:35 pm »
As for LNO2, you can already get your air tanks filled with "Nitrox" for diving... so that goes back to me not really seeing what Triton's system supposedly brings to the table?

Note that nitrox ix diving terminology for a standard breathing mix of nitrogen and oxygen gasses, which is a very different thing than nitrous oxide.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #134 on: April 04, 2016, 07:14:33 pm »
additionally, I think breathing time in open loop with nitrox mix at 15 feet is approximately the same as 100% o2
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #135 on: April 04, 2016, 07:47:11 pm »
They gave up and refunded everybody:

https://gearjunkie.com/refunded-triton-artificial-gills-campaign-update

Nope, they just changed their tune.  They got called out on their first scam, canceled the campaign, and started a new, equally ridiculous one in its place.
 

Offline mswhin63

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #136 on: April 05, 2016, 12:28:15 am »
Already at $260,000.
.
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #137 on: April 05, 2016, 08:08:56 am »
Whatever it is, Gills, Re-breather, LOx, or an air tank it's all  :bullshit:  :bullshit:  :bullshit:

In the last video he sits in a pool for 12 min 45 sec and breaths 96times!!  (/watch?v=QrT_KtdGFa8)
Now look how much bigger spare air is http://spareair.com/product/models.html
and in the specs "Surface Breaths: 57 based on 1.6L per breath, max pressure 200 bar"
The only cool thing in this video is the first song.  >:D

57 breaths
  |O339 breaths |O
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 08:27:48 am by Kalidor »
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 

Offline janekm

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #138 on: April 05, 2016, 08:42:33 am »
I spot some parallels to uBeam:

Quote
The funding will be utilized for engineering and product manufacturing. We have found the perfect manufacturer, who has great marine product experience, to produce Triton to the exacting standards we demand.



Career opportunity:
We are looking for a technician in marine technology that can start working with us in fall 2016, please if you feel like you are the right person for the job or if you know anybody that is perfect for this job let us know.

That will be make for some interesting job interviews I suspect!
"So, you haven't done any engineering yet and you expect me to engineer a regulator to take liquid oxygen to breathable pressure in a 10cm^3 volume, ready for manufacture one month from now?"
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #139 on: April 05, 2016, 10:07:10 am »
I spot some parallels to uBeam:
Quote
The funding will be utilized for engineering and product manufacturing. We have found the perfect manufacturer, who has great marine product experience, to produce Triton to the exacting standards we demand.

Translation: We haven't actually designed this thing yet, but we are pretty confident it will work, because, well, people gave us money for it.
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #140 on: April 05, 2016, 10:58:18 am »
They aren't accepting low donations now on the "New" campaign.  Donate a dollar, and IGG refunds it in about a minute.  Long enough time to post a comment though :)
 
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #141 on: April 05, 2016, 12:33:31 pm »
They aren't accepting low donations now on the "New" campaign.  Donate a dollar, and IGG refunds it in about a minute.  Long enough time to post a comment though :)

Just the fact that the latest comment is 11h old shows that all comment sections (IGG + YT) are - say "moderated".
They accepted my $1 until I wrote a comment, refunded comment deleted.
Maybe I make a $1000 donation and write a comment and then cancel it before the campaign ends. You can do that on your admin page.
To see if your comment was deleted you have to logoff from IGG, same for YT.

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 

Online BradC

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #142 on: April 05, 2016, 12:42:48 pm »
Those have existed for a long time-- at least since the 80s. Basically an inner tube with a dive flag sticking up, a compressor, and a long hose with a regulator attached. They used to be pretty huge, with a gas powered compressor and such, but they're probably small and electric now. Maybe even solar powered. *shrug* Definitely not the James Bond kind of awesome this company is trying to claim.

I have one. You *could* solar power it, but the average consumption is still in the order of 200w (roughly 16A @ 12v). Still, nicer than a 3hp Honda.
 

Offline ConKbot

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #143 on: April 06, 2016, 04:51:18 am »

Youve probably seen people walking around with lo2, something like this Lo2 Portable Storage. This is a medical device with additional regulating components but has a similar storage volume they would need and has a storage time of 9 hours. Being a medical device, it costs $1,000 but the dewar inside of it probably costs a fraction of that (but I dont really know).

Lo2, your always going to end up less than when you start (unless you somehow keep the temps way down with another cryo fluid or device), but you can get the boil off rate fairly low with good insulation and some pressure; you'd have to bring more than you're going to use and you'd probably have to use it somewhat quickly but it can be done.


Those are oxygen concentrators, not LO2 dewars, even the headline on the page is "Oxygen Concentrators"  They use dual pressure swing adsorption canisters, one to soak up nitrogen leaving oxygen rich air for the patient while the other canister regenerates, venting the nitrogen-rich stream.  Also useful for generating dry nitrogen for desiccator cabinets, high power air dielectric coax cables, or Hakkos swanky nitrogen shielded soldering iron http://www.hakko.com/english/n2system/connection-method.html I believe even a hot N2 reflow system is available too.

So old ones could potentially be usable to hobbiests.  :-+
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #144 on: April 06, 2016, 05:06:05 am »

Youve probably seen people walking around with lo2, something like this Lo2 Portable Storage. This is a medical device with additional regulating components but has a similar storage volume they would need and has a storage time of 9 hours. Being a medical device, it costs $1,000 but the dewar inside of it probably costs a fraction of that (but I dont really know).

Lo2, your always going to end up less than when you start (unless you somehow keep the temps way down with another cryo fluid or device), but you can get the boil off rate fairly low with good insulation and some pressure; you'd have to bring more than you're going to use and you'd probably have to use it somewhat quickly but it can be done.


Those are oxygen concentrators, not LO2 dewars, even the headline on the page is "Oxygen Concentrators"  They use dual pressure swing adsorption canisters, one to soak up nitrogen leaving oxygen rich air for the patient while the other canister regenerates, venting the nitrogen-rich stream. 

The link is the portable canister for an oxygen concentration system, it is not the concentrator itself. Internally it has to have a dewar or highly insulated canister to hold the lox.

Also useful for generating dry nitrogen for desiccator cabinets, high power air dielectric coax cables, or Hakkos swanky nitrogen shielded soldering iron http://www.hakko.com/english/n2system/connection-method.html I believe even a hot N2 reflow system is available too.

So old ones could potentially be usable to hobbiests.  :-+

Didn't know this.  I need a desiccator cabinet.... i have to look into it. Thanks  :-+
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 05:14:41 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #145 on: April 06, 2016, 11:10:33 am »
They aren't accepting low donations now on the "New" campaign.  Donate a dollar, and IGG refunds it in about a minute.  Long enough time to post a comment though :)

Just the fact that the latest comment is 11h old shows that all comment sections (IGG + YT) are - say "moderated".
They accepted my $1 until I wrote a comment, refunded comment deleted.
Maybe I make a $1000 donation and write a comment and then cancel it before the campaign ends. You can do that on your admin page.
To see if your comment was deleted you have to logoff from IGG, same for YT.

I see that, If I log off, the comment vanishes.  If I log back in, it shows up again, but I assume only for me.
 

Offline timb

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #146 on: April 06, 2016, 12:22:26 pm »

Youve probably seen people walking around with lo2, something like this Lo2 Portable Storage. This is a medical device with additional regulating components but has a similar storage volume they would need and has a storage time of 9 hours. Being a medical device, it costs $1,000 but the dewar inside of it probably costs a fraction of that (but I dont really know).

Lo2, your always going to end up less than when you start (unless you somehow keep the temps way down with another cryo fluid or device), but you can get the boil off rate fairly low with good insulation and some pressure; you'd have to bring more than you're going to use and you'd probably have to use it somewhat quickly but it can be done.


Those are oxygen concentrators, not LO2 dewars, even the headline on the page is "Oxygen Concentrators"  They use dual pressure swing adsorption canisters, one to soak up nitrogen leaving oxygen rich air for the patient while the other canister regenerates, venting the nitrogen-rich stream. 

The link is the portable canister for an oxygen concentration system, it is not the concentrator itself. Internally it has to have a dewar or highly insulated canister to hold the lox.

I'm pretty sure there is no LO2 in these things. Otherwise it would be pretty dangerous for patients to travel with them in planes and such.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #147 on: April 06, 2016, 12:28:59 pm »
Quote
LOX capacity: 0.9 lb (0,41 kg)

As to planes - you just don't travel by plane if you need to use one of those.
 

Offline edavid

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #148 on: April 06, 2016, 03:36:30 pm »
So old ones could potentially be usable to hobbiests.  :-+

There is already quite a bit of demand for used medical oxygen concentrators from people who use them for torch setups, e.g. for glass work.
 

Offline janekm

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #149 on: April 06, 2016, 04:03:37 pm »
Quote
LOX capacity: 0.9 lb (0,41 kg)

As to planes - you just don't travel by plane if you need to use one of those.

For a moment I thought you were talking about the Triton, and was ready to post:

Quote
Why fly when you can swim there!
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #150 on: April 07, 2016, 06:19:23 pm »
 What world are we living in... :palm:

:-DD
 

Offline stmdude

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #151 on: April 09, 2016, 02:43:48 pm »
Not that anyone would be surprised, but I did a bit of digging on the CEO (since I'm from Sweden as well).

I was actually surprised to find one individual in Sweden with a matching name, age and looks.
To call him an "entrepreneur" is probably stretching the definition well past the breaking-point though.

He is associated with _1_ company, which is his own one-man company (special form of company in Sweden). The company was registered in January of 2014, and has never filed taxes, so there has been (presumably) no income in the company.

That's it..  According to LinkedIn, he's been a sales-guy in all previous jobs to this one..
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #152 on: April 10, 2016, 08:03:19 pm »
I guess that answers the question on whether they meant liquid oxygen as a euphemism for some form of chemical oxygen generation:



Nope. LOX. They're nuts.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #153 on: April 10, 2016, 11:07:57 pm »
Nope. LOX. They're nuts.

Saeed knows that currently LOX cannot be taken aboard a plane, but
Quote
we will be able to ship it because we will follow the DOT regulations and we are working to develop a insulated container that will be make it possible to bring on a flight, we will also release more information as we go with all regulations and how far we come to solve it, have a great day

He admits the LOX will not last long, so he is talking about a miniature dewar with continuous venting of excess gaseous O2

All he has to do is to change the international airline safety regulations to allow items to be shipped that are venting uncontrolled amounts of pure oxygen into a cargo hold. And he will have no problem getting the international laws changed by December!

Probably for his next campaign, he will work on getting the laws of gravity changed.

And he says that if you are unable to get LOX at your destination, he will refund all your money and you can keep the Triton for free!  :-DD

When asked about the breathing mixture, he seemed to confirm it was pure oxygen.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2016, 11:23:58 pm by amspire »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #154 on: April 10, 2016, 11:59:23 pm »
Looked up some data from Dewar manufactures and typical liquid oxygen evaporation rates were 0.2 to 0.8 litres a day. The evaporation and release of the oxygen is essential to keep the remaining LOX cold enough to be liquid.

A miniature dewar would have a very small insulating air/vacuum gap between the walls, so how long could it hold any LOX? Could it manage an hour? It would solve all the shipping problems - by the time the miniature LOX dewar reaches an airport for shipping, it is almost certainly empty.

That miniature dewar has to contain the double stainless steel walls, and a phase separator to separate the gaseous oxygen from the LOX. To let the LOX get as high as -118 degC to minimize the evaporation rate, it has to allow for pressures of 50 atmospheres, so that would mean the inner wall would be a pressure vessel with strong walls. How much room is left for the LOX?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 12:01:33 am by amspire »
 

Offline edavid

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #155 on: April 11, 2016, 01:10:32 am »
It this were real, you would ship the dewars empty, and get a medical oxygen supplier to fill them at the destination.

 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #156 on: April 11, 2016, 01:32:28 am »
It this were real, you would ship the dewars empty, and get a medical oxygen supplier to fill them at the destination.

This is the only cost effective way to get the lo2 I think... but kinda doubt a med supply house will fill a non-medical canister for some random person walking in. I tried several med supply places for syringe bodies, without the needles, and couldn't get them.... and those have zippo regulations.
 

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #157 on: April 11, 2016, 01:47:03 am »
Also Ill mention, I did a quick hand calculation. I have to double check. But I think there maybe problem with evaporating the lo2 at a sufficient rate since you need thermal transfer to do it. I think it may freeze up the device or water in contact, unless you provide some method for forced convection... especially since most of the cylinder will be supposedly insulated.
 

Offline TassiloH

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #158 on: April 11, 2016, 02:24:09 am »
What is the problem with LO2 supply? To make 1kg of LO2 from room temp gas (a temp difference of 25 --183 = 207K) one needs 0.91 kJ/(kg*K) * 1kg * 207K = 188 kJ for the specific heat plus 214 kJ for the latent heat, so roughly 400kJ = 400000 Ws.
For a steal of about 16000 US$ one can buy a cryocooler that supplies about 100W cooling power at this temperature (and consumes about 3kW of electricity to do it). So it takes only 400000 Ws/100W = 4000 s. Assuming that half the power is lost due to imperfect insulation, one can make 1kg of LO2 in 3h. Problem solved  :-DD
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #159 on: April 11, 2016, 03:59:25 am »
Either this Saeed guy has absolutely no experience with cryogenic liquified gases, or he is depending on his marks having none.
The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #160 on: April 11, 2016, 04:09:30 am »
Thunderf00t is working on an updated video to demolish the new liquid oxygen thing  :-+
 
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Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #161 on: April 11, 2016, 04:43:07 am »
I was going to leave this, but I just noticed a brand new campaign:

This is fantastic news for the people of Sydney. We can not get our Tritons locally now!
 
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Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #162 on: April 11, 2016, 05:00:00 am »
I was going to leave this, but I just noticed a brand new campaign:
This is fantastic news for the people of Sydney. We can not get our Tritons locally now!

So does IGG not check anything at all or something?
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #163 on: April 11, 2016, 05:11:05 am »
So does IGG not check anything at all or something?
It is against their rules, but so is starting a campaign that is technically impossible.
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #164 on: April 11, 2016, 07:20:38 am »
So does IGG not check anything at all or something?
It is against their rules, but so is starting a campaign that is technically impossible.

It's not the same guy, someone that calls himself Bassam Meraby copy pasted the campaign bit by bit. fraud^2
https://igg.me/at/nE9NBTSWkGI/x/10280792
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #165 on: April 11, 2016, 12:45:56 pm »
There was a third campaign too, ( https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton--5#/ ) that IGG actually did shut down... Or at least it is "Under Review by the Safety and Trust Team"... /laugh.

For anyone really interested in this mess, on of the reddit folk wrote a bot to tweet every time a negative Triton post was deleted from the campaign board.
You can find it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/4e0zra/i_just_made_a_bot_that_tweets_the_comments/
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #166 on: April 11, 2016, 01:44:57 pm »
It's not the same guy, someone that calls himself Bassam Meraby copy pasted the campaign bit by bit. fraud^2
https://igg.me/at/nE9NBTSWkGI/x/10280792

I had my uCurrent Kickstarter campaign copied on IGG, it happens all the time.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #167 on: April 11, 2016, 02:22:48 pm »
And it even has backers too  :palm:

While we're on the humor topic, why not a guaranteed loss instead of a guaranteed loss but with no hope-you-need-to-force-yourself-to-get?  :-DD

https://igg.me/at/DONOTUSE

May or may not take inspiration from the topic at hand...
« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 02:24:30 pm by Kilrah »
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #168 on: April 12, 2016, 01:59:06 am »
While we're on the subject of shipping LOX to consumers without cryogenic liquid training:

http://www.elcosh.org/document/1676/d000585/Liquid%2BOxygen%2BCylinder%2BExplosion.html?show_text=1
 

Offline hayatepilot

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #169 on: April 12, 2016, 06:34:07 am »
Somebody made a debunk/scam alert campaign:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-last-artificial-gills-scam#/

I hope that saves some people from throwing their money out of the window.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2016, 06:38:40 am by hayatepilot »
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #170 on: April 12, 2016, 10:56:59 am »
It probably won't, but I applaud the effort (and tossed in a Euro as well).
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #171 on: April 12, 2016, 12:56:50 pm »
2nd from me. Can't wait to get my nothing!
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #172 on: April 12, 2016, 02:47:20 pm »
There was a third campaign too, ( https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton--5#/ ) that IGG actually did shut down... Or at least it is "Under Review by the Safety and Trust Team"... /laugh.

For anyone really interested in this mess, on of the reddit folk wrote a bot to tweet every time a negative Triton post was deleted from the campaign board.
You can find it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/shittykickstarters/comments/4e0zra/i_just_made_a_bot_that_tweets_the_comments/

and here are the tweets
https://twitter.com/TritonDeleted
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #173 on: April 12, 2016, 06:05:02 pm »
That bot is genius!
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #174 on: April 13, 2016, 10:04:28 am »
2nd from me. Can't wait to get my nothing!

Wait, did you ask for two nothings?
I feel cheated already!
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #175 on: April 13, 2016, 03:56:43 pm »
2nd from me. Can't wait to get my nothing!

Wait, did you ask for two nothings?
I feel cheated already!
Yep and he's offering me the 2nd one! But then he bought one from me again, so don't be jealous  ;)
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #176 on: April 14, 2016, 04:19:51 pm »
Aww damn, just got a refund, his campaign has been closed by IGG it seems...

Ironic how they'll close "safe" campaigns for being copies, but leave obvious scams untouched  :-//
« Last Edit: April 14, 2016, 04:21:26 pm by Kilrah »
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #177 on: April 14, 2016, 04:50:06 pm »
Not to worry, it is back:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-last-artificial-gills-scam/x/13639189#/

Just without the "Patented" graphic.

And txt29 says he had over 2200 views before it was pulled, then restored.
 
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #178 on: April 18, 2016, 10:38:24 am »
 >:D The TriChicken  >:D
https://youtu.be/lXv_AohVUcQ

..not only Triton can fake underwater videos, jump to 1:15 to see how they did it.
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #179 on: April 18, 2016, 11:00:25 am »
Indigogo blocked them again, they cannot delete comments and the perk section is down.  :box:
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #180 on: April 19, 2016, 12:23:50 am »
Triton are saying that they are working to meet the DOT 49 standards for the shipping of Liquid Oxygen, so I took a look. As well as the outright "forbidden" status for passenger and cargo plane transport, the DOT 49 173.102 requires that liquid oxygen cylinders meet the T22 special provision - that is a minimum wall thickness of 10mm.

Considering that these cylinders will require a phase separator (since the specifications require that the vent is in contact with only the vapour phase - not the liquid phase), plus properly rated, tested and approved pressure release and venting valves, I would say there is not actually much room left for liquid oxygen.

DOT 49 173.102 T22 also prohibits a bottom opening or vent on any LOX container, so I assume Triton will have to have a gimballed housing for the LOX cylinders that prevents the cylinders from ever being up-side-down.

Others have already raised many of the other practical and legal problems in transporting LOX.
12 days to go and Indiegogo are investigating. The investigation includes information they have received on both the dangerous nature of liquid O2 and the impossibility of the product. It is hard to see how any investigation can come to any conclusion but to cancel the project.

Even if Triton are a bunch of Nobel Prize worthy geniuses, and have some physics-shattering not-yet-patented technology, I cannot see how this campaign can be allowed until Triton are in a position to openly answer questions.

I cannot imagine an up-side for Indiegogo for allowing the campaign to complete, unless they were stupid enough to sign a special deal with Triton to get the original money refunded for the first campaign. It is interesting that all the recent posts on the Triton campaign are negative - have Indiegogo stopped the deletion of posts?
 

Offline edavid

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #181 on: April 19, 2016, 01:05:33 am »
I had a good laugh over this:

Quote
tom
5 days ago
What is the shelf life of a canister and approximately how long will a canister last?

Saeed Khademi
Campaigner 5 days ago
Hi Tom, the shelf life is 3 months, and each canister will work 2 X 45 minutes, have a great day,

And you don't even have to keep it in the freezer :)
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #182 on: April 19, 2016, 01:36:38 am »
I had a good laugh over this:

Quote
tom
5 days ago
What is the shelf life of a canister and approximately how long will a canister last?

Saeed Khademi
Campaigner 5 days ago
Hi Tom, the shelf life is 3 months, and each canister will work 2 X 45 minutes, have a great day,

And you don't even have to keep it in the freezer :)

 :palm:  lol
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #183 on: April 19, 2016, 02:05:47 am »
Why are they even on IGG? They could get rich selling this to space technology companies. LOX is much more efficient than traditional storable propellants, but can't be stored on orbit for any real length of time so its only practical for launch, not for extended duration propulsion modules. They would be all over this magical cyrogenic storage tech.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #184 on: April 19, 2016, 02:50:07 am »
Because IGG is the only place where they can find people ignorant enough to buy into their non-existent and nowhere-close-to-arriving "tech"...

Envoyé de mon SM-G930F en utilisant Tapatalk

 

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Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #186 on: April 19, 2016, 04:04:50 am »
To be fair to Indiegogo, ......    :-DD  Sorry, I will try and keep a straight face.

to be fair to Indiegogo, the particular Triton review they started on the 14th may include a list of questions to be sent to Triton that they will have to answer. Even if it seems obvious, there will be a procedure that has to be followed. Triton may not be the quickest responders when it comes to technical information, but I am hoping that the money will be locked until convincing answers come back from Triton. If there are no good answers, I am hoping Indiegogo will cancel the campaign.  If they do block the campaign, they can decide to disallow any future campaigns from to people involved. It is possible that Indiegogo may have realised they have a problem, and they are taking their time to get their facts and arguments right.

If Indiegogo accept answers like - "I cannot tell you - it's a secret", then there is not much hope for  Indiegogo.   

By the way, here is a quote from Indiegogo concerning the review into Triton:

"If the project doesn't follow our rules, we may remove the campaign".  :palm:
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 04:21:35 am by amspire »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #187 on: April 19, 2016, 04:56:35 am »
I had a good laugh over this:

Quote
tom
5 days ago
What is the shelf life of a canister and approximately how long will a canister last?

Saeed Khademi
Campaigner 5 days ago
Hi Tom, the shelf life is 3 months, and each canister will work 2 X 45 minutes, have a great day,

And you don't even have to keep it in the freezer :)

And they say they will be selling the canisters for $17.99     :-DD

You can't even buy a good steel vacuum hot drinks bottle for that!  Empty!


These people cannot be for real. This is some kind of practical joke or something.

(of course the steel thermos bottle comes with a nice handy cup..... )

The easiest person to fool is yourself. -- Richard Feynman
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #188 on: April 19, 2016, 05:51:50 am »
I'll just leave this old gem here...

« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 11:54:59 am by Kilrah »
 
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Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #189 on: April 19, 2016, 11:19:26 am »
If you check the comments section on the Triton campaign, it seems that the tri-team has gone dark for the past couple days. 
Lots of negative comments showing up, without being censored...

And if IGG does ANYTHING, they will probably try to once again "restructure" the campaign to be something else that can sucker in cash.  IGG has a serious stake in this, they don't want to actually lose anything that suckers are going to contribute to.
 

Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #190 on: April 19, 2016, 11:11:01 pm »
I don't understand, how did we get from tapping the oxygen dissolved in water to using mini portable oxygen tanks?   :-//

Wasn't the idea of Triton to filter water for the oxygen dissolved in it? Did they back-track on this claim and go to some portable liquid oxygen tank concept?

Obviously that opens up a whole other set of issues, not to mention that 100% oxygen is not breathable, it is toxic. There will need to be nitrogen in the mix or another gas. Even if they use liquid air, when a gas under pressure is evaporated, heat is drawn out of the liquid and surrounding fixtures to expand the gas.... causing a big drop in temperature. 

Either way, if they just take a simple scuba system and miniaturize it, you will just have a much shorter duration to be able to dive from. Scuba tanks normally have compressed air that has been filtered and dehumidified.... It is not liquid, just denser gas.

Based on some online resources (example http://scuba.about.com/od/scuba101/p/How-Long-Does-A-Scuba-Tank-Last.htm), a regular 80 cubic ft scuba tank will last about 45-60 minutes on an average dive within safe limits. Now imagine taking 1/10th of that volume like something that will fit in the Triton.... we are talking 6 minutes worth of compressed air?

Now with respect to Dewer flasks (insulated cryogenic bottles), tanks, liquid versus compressed, cooled versus room temperature.... Triton is basically just blowing more smoke up everyone's ARSE at this point.  :wtf: I don't think they know crap all about what they are doing and inventing things as they go along. Extracting breathable air from whatever source they want to use is going to be a complicated task.

You cannot simply strap some cryogenically cooled air on to your face while you swim around and expect to breathe the evaporation. You also can't just throw a couple of tanks with compressed air on your face unless you are doing what the scuba people are doing and limit yourself to 6 minutes of air for a tiny tank. Nevermind the fact that you have to fill them up each time, the cost is going to be astronomical.

You are better off creating a floating "air supply" with a tube going down to your mouth and towing it behind you as you swim. That would pump air from the atmosphere down (like the old diving helmets).... Hey, I think I discovered a new IndieGogo campaign.... Time to start some renderings and making videos...  >:D
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Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #191 on: April 19, 2016, 11:23:07 pm »
I'll just leave this old gem here...



 :-DD  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD

This video.....  Oh My GOD!

Man, I'm too young.... I completely missed out on the "good old days".  :palm:  I can't believe that was a government training film. If I ever played a video like that today for safety training at work, they would "have my ass" (and not in a good way).  :palm:

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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #192 on: April 20, 2016, 01:48:49 am »


 :-DD  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD  :-DD

This video.....  Oh My GOD!

Man, I'm too young.... I completely missed out on the "good old days".  :palm:  I can't believe that was a government training film. If I ever played a video like that today for safety training at work, they would "have my ass" (and not in a good way).  :palm:

Even better one from Germany, you will understand it even if you don't speak German.
https://youtu.be/9z77oztO6UQ
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Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #193 on: April 20, 2016, 03:16:09 am »
The good old Klaus... one of my all time favorites!  :-DD
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 03:38:23 am by Kilrah »
 

Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #194 on: April 20, 2016, 03:32:16 am »
 :-DD

That's a real safety video??? ... Every scene was funnier than the previous until by the end I just couldn't believe it was real. Wow! I don't understand any German but that was one of the funniest things I've ever seen (in a disgusting sort of way). I guess the purpose is met... Nobody who sees it will every forget about safety!  :-+
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Offline SeanB

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #195 on: April 20, 2016, 04:37:58 pm »
Interesting aside, as an avionics instrument technician we were prohibited from using any polish on our work shoes.  Was bad for my instructor one fine day to send me to read every squadron standing order on file ( around 50 years of them) as I did get to this one eventually, dating from somewhere in the 1980's. Read it, copied it and put it up on the notice board as well in the office. RSM did his nut the next week when we turned up on parade with non polished shoes. Even more when referred to the instruction in his file. Just had to make sure they were dust free....... Just had to make sure every time I saw him in non work shoes that they were shiny, and the metal parts of the uniform shone.

Came about because of an incident where somebody had a bad burn to the feet from burning shoes from a LOX leak during refilling.

For smokers we would sneak out the pack of cigarettes without them noticing, then go and pour some LOX in the pack, then sneak it back. Next time they lit up it would burn down to the filter in under 10 seconds.....

ps Careful handling things in LOX gloves, I broke the snake that was in the lox trolley after I dropped it while picking it up, after it got around 5l of vented LOX dumped on it from a flight tank vent. Oops..... Shattered like it was glass.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #196 on: April 21, 2016, 12:55:41 am »
:-DD

That's a real safety video??? ... Every scene was funnier than the previous until by the end I just couldn't believe it was real. Wow! I don't understand any German but that was one of the funniest things I've ever seen (in a disgusting sort of way). I guess the purpose is met... Nobody who sees it will every forget about safety!  :-+

Unfortunately it's not a "real" safety video but it's instead a parody of such films created for a short film contest. However, it has gone on to be used as a safety film (in an attention-grabbing way) so you could say it's come full circle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forklift_Driver_Klaus_%E2%80%93_The_First_Day_on_the_Job
 
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Offline Delta

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #197 on: April 21, 2016, 01:41:27 am »
I've not watch that clip yet - I don't need to!  The Man from LOX is permanently ingrained in me from my aviation days  :clap:

"The safety officer's going to have my ass!"
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #198 on: April 21, 2016, 01:47:22 am »
Wasn't the idea of Triton to filter water for the oxygen dissolved in it? Did they back-track on this claim and go to some portable liquid oxygen tank concept?

Yep, that's exactly what they did  :palm:
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #199 on: April 21, 2016, 06:20:41 am »
Their campaign still has information and video on how oxygen can be extracted from water with a microfilter, even though they are now using liquid oxygen. I hadn't realised they had posted youtube videos in Jan 2014 and from then to this year, all the descriptions involved extracting oxygen from water. They explicitly said the microfilters were for excluding water molecules, so that rules out the idea of filtering out C02 from expelled air and recycling the oxygen. They don't have a reservoir anyway and the videos showed all the expelled air going up in big bubbles.

A thing about the timing is that in April 2013, the University of Illinois announced their experimental Lithium battery, and at one point, a spokeperson mentioned how it could potentially charge 1000 times faster and be 30 times smaller then current batteries.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/triton-artificial-gills/msg907141/#msg907141

Triton claim their project started one month later in May 2013 with batteries that could "charge 1000 times faster and be 30 times smaller" than existing batteries. One month is a pretty good effort to turn a very experimental button-sized low capacity batteries into commercial high capacity batteries. What Triton didn't understand is that the spokeperson for the batteries meant 30 times higher peak current for a given size, but the capacity is no better then current batteries. In fact the capacity of the experimental battery was 1/10th of current batteries.

Amazing how the smallest of mistakes like the non-existent batteries, the inadequacy of microfilters and the impossibility of liquid oxygen can bring a brilliant design down. At least they have the CAD drawings for a microfilter design that doesn't work, the explanation videos that they admit were totally wrong and BMX bicycle grips.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2016, 06:25:51 am by amspire »
 

Offline alsetalokin4017

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #200 on: April 21, 2016, 08:21:00 am »
So what's the problem about Liquid Oxygen? It's readily available on Amazon and other internet retailers:

http://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Stabilized-Premium-Concentrated-Supplement/dp/B004IJHHL4

Stabilized -- no Dewar needed !    :phew:


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Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #201 on: April 21, 2016, 08:48:48 am »
Triton have posted an update.

Before, they had both microfilter and LOX canisters both sides. Now, the useless microfilter is on the left hand side. The Liquid Oxygen is on the right hand side. Apparently, they are always looking for ways to improve Triton.

They are going to make a new video of the "New Look" Triton. I can't wait to see the LOX canisters. I wish they would show the "functional prototype" they made almost a year ago.
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #202 on: April 22, 2016, 10:43:01 am »
So what's the problem about Liquid Oxygen? It's readily available on Amazon and other internet retailers:

http://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Stabilized-Premium-Concentrated-Supplement/dp/B004IJHHL4

Stabilized -- no Dewar needed !    :phew:

"Ingredients: High levels of diatomic oxygen stabilized in water."  :-DD :-DD :-DD  120ml of Water for 20 bucks.

But wait it gets better:

100% SAFE, NATURAL, AND NON-TOXIC: Our Liquid Oxygen drops are safe, sterile, and non-toxic. This product is HIGHLY STABLE, with a LONG SHELF LIFE. Thousands of customers have safely and effectively benefited from using this product.
MAINTAIN GOOD OXYGEN LEVELS: Liquid Oxygen can help to INCREASE THE OXYGEN LEVELS in your body, which is essential for overall health. Taking Liquid Oxygen supports the proper functioning of every system in your body. In our oxygen-depleted world, taking an oxygen supplement is now ESSENTIAL FOR OPTIMUM HEALTH.
GOLD STANDARD PRODUCTION: Your health and safety mean everything to us. For that reason, our Liquid Oxygen is manufactured in the USA, in an FDA approved facility with adherence to good manufacturing policies (GMP) and under the most stringent quality control. You can rest assured that you get the best value for your money!
CONCENTRATED INFUSION OF OXYGEN: Your energy is directly linked to the amount of oxygen in your blood. The more oxygen, the more energy. Liquid Oxygen is a blend of activated, stabilized oxygen, which can SUPERCHARGE YOUR OXYGEN and energy levels.
GREAT VALUE: Each 4-ounce bottle comes with an EASY-TO-USE dropper top, and contains approximately 250 SERVINGS PER BOTTLE.
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #203 on: April 22, 2016, 02:39:35 pm »
Now they need the LOX to operate the gills to produce more oxygen... or so.  |O

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Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #204 on: April 22, 2016, 04:28:46 pm »
Their update from a few days ago....

Quote
We want to say sorry for our "Groupie Haters" that we collected along the way since we announced Triton, we have notice that they don't have much to do on their free time then writing negative comments about Triton and us.

A wise man told me once, do you know when you are doing something successful?  that is when you have haters so collect them he said.

Well he was right :)

This update is for our backers/supporters we have the best support ever from you and we will deliver the best Triton on December 2016.

We will put a short video on how the new look of Triton.
This is a amazing time for us and we want to share it with you.

Best regards
Saeed, Jeabyun, John


We are called "Groupie Haters". I like that. I guess anyone with half a brain and some basic understanding of science who asks legitimate questions to these scammers is a hater.   :box:
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Offline rrinker

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #205 on: April 22, 2016, 07:03:47 pm »
 'Tis the way of the modern world. Disagree with someone, even with plenty of facts to back up your position, and you are a "hater". Doesn't matter what you apply it to - it's the same thing over and over.
 
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Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #206 on: April 26, 2016, 08:49:55 am »
The latest Triton "movie" only makes things worse. I have added a few screenshots.

In the exploded view, they forgot do add any holes for the oxygen to actually reach your mouth. Is the green rectangular block the electronics? Must be using uBeam connections.

The second shows as much of the of the LOX cylinder as they were prepared to show. Not surprising as the other end is a real problem. There has to be at least a separate vent and gas outlet - perhaps three ports if a third inlet is needed so the phase converter can be bypassed for filling with LOX. It is still too thin considering the 10mm walls that are needed. The vent has to be designed so that water cannot freeze around it and block the vent - that is not easy or compact to achieve. Outlets are forbidden on the bottom of a LOX container, and they already have them on the side. Makes it interesting to use. They basically haven't even tried.

The LOX cylinder cannot meet any of the minimum requirements to get permits for transport, so you will need to get the LOX refill right at the diving site. I am sure Triton will tell us that they have already arranged for LOX manufacturing and filling sites at every diving location and on every diving boat around the world.  :-DD

Still wont be safe for transport, but apparently it will be safe to give to kids to use next to their faces underwater.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 08:53:08 am by amspire »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #207 on: April 26, 2016, 09:51:18 am »
We are called "Groupie Haters". I like that. I guess anyone with half a brain and some basic understanding of science who asks legitimate questions to these scammers is a hater.   :box:

I hate solar energy, didn't you know  ;D
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #208 on: April 26, 2016, 12:48:13 pm »
Now they have an automatic refunding system in place. If you contribute one buck it will be refunded one to two seconds later. Maybe they also kick people which wrote "negative" comments in the past.
I'm wondering if IGG helped them with this functionality or if they scripted it.
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Offline Mr.B

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #209 on: April 26, 2016, 08:19:51 pm »
And in the last 4 hours it is heating up...

Time is the overseer of all things.
 

Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #210 on: April 26, 2016, 10:19:27 pm »
I've said it before and I say it again....

Companies like Kickstarter and IndieGogo may be inadvertantly funneling money to fraudsters or criminals.... or worse... terrorism. I understand they take a 3rd party "we are not accountable" status and all backers must be aware that if things go sour, they are out of luck with any help whatsoever. I get it.

However...

Me thinks the U.S. GOVERNMENT would take a very keen interest in following the flow of money, especially to regions of the world that fund terrorism or there is organized crime involved.

If IndieGogo can be shown to indirectly be permitting the funding of terrorists, I think they would get slapped so hard they will never recover.

I'm not trying to point any blame to the Triton guys, who claim they are in Sweden. Nevermind that some users seem to think they are in Dubai. And I certainly don't want to accuse people to supporting or tied to any such thing just because of where they live or what ethnicity or religion they are.

But...

Shouldn't these companies (IndieGogo) be required to show where their money is going? They pay taxes, right? They must show money flowing out of the U.S. to foreign accounts, and lots of it. Many of these foreign accounts, owned by individuals with unknown motivations and possibly anonymous bank accounts.

Also.... Let's not forget that tax evasion is a criminal activity, and that some of these people being funded are not putting into place proper accounting practices, any kind of disclosure, and all other regular business practices that are required.

 :palm:

While I love the idea of crowd-funding, we will come to remember in a few years that this was just another example of greed and lack of accountability (with no proper systems in place to prevent major issues)... Much like the mortgage crisis/bubble, the derivatives bubble, and all other financial instrument bubbles and scams that have plagued our financial world. Crowd-funding is awesome, but it needs to have certain checks and balances and safe-guards in place.

[edit:] Companies fail and things don't always work out financially. But they claim BANKRUPTCY and the people who lost the money cannot borrow again for a long time. They have their assets liquidated, their house or collateral taken away, they are punished and held accountable. That somehow makes people less "loose" with money and a bit more likely to be responsible. That also means you don't sleep at night, you sweat buckets, you yell at people for not doing their job, etc.... that's what you do when you risk losing the shirt off your back and ending up screwed over.  :scared:

I do seem to remember a few failed campaigns where the inventors became very depressed and even risked committing suicide.... So I know there are genuine honest people out there who crowd-fund and really feel obligated and responsible. But how many don't? At least if an institution lends you money, you should have a team of specialists who evaluate the project and help solve problems.... much like "incubators" who provide assistance in making sure the projects develop to fruition or at least evaluate projects before they start to ensure that it is even feasible.

It seems to me that as far as problems go, crowd-funding abuse is not really a major issue in the eyes of the government. However, if there is terrorism-related funding going on, a whole new set of priorities are given to this. I don't like necessarily the "terrorism" excuse either to allow government to do whatever they want either, but then again... who knows how many millions of dollars have ended up in the hands of organized cyber-crime rings, terrorists and others.

DO YOU THINK INDIEGOGO KNOWS WHO IS A TERRORIST OR CYBER-SCAMMER?

Anybody half way across the world can make some bull-$h!t device, claim it works, get lucky and raise a pile of money... and then uses it to fund a war. How does IndieGogo know? All you need is some good photoshop and 3D rendering skills... Make a new smartwatch, make a hoverboard, make a cool looking cellphone, make a projector tablet/watch/camera, make a VR headset, 3D display, solar charger, and numerous other "cool" gadgets and pay to get them promoted, and raise a ton of money. Seems nobody is fact-checking or science-checking or even tracking where the money goes.... Except it could end up causing death, destruction and mayhem.

« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 10:48:53 pm by edy »
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Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #211 on: April 27, 2016, 05:52:39 pm »
Has anyone seen this already? I just noticed it:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-last-artificial-gills-scam#/

Things are heating up on the website, plus a lot of other sites:  http://tritonclaimants.spacecrafted.com/
« Last Edit: April 27, 2016, 05:59:13 pm by edy »
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Offline helius

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #212 on: April 27, 2016, 06:03:52 pm »
Hopefully you get free bagels with your LOX.  :-DD
 

Offline Delta

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #213 on: April 27, 2016, 06:49:36 pm »
Has anyone seen this already? I just noticed it:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-last-artificial-gills-scam#/

Things are heating up on the website, plus a lot of other sites:  http://tritonclaimants.spacecrafted.com/

 :-DD :-DD :-DD

Those fucking idiots!  They have DONATED money!  They have not "invested" nor "purchased" anything. 
 

Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #214 on: May 03, 2016, 08:43:11 pm »

..................and............................  They're funded.  :palm:

To the tune of $447,877 USD thus far.

Now the long.... long.... long wait.....  :popcorn:    ...........  :=\
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Offline Corporate666

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #215 on: May 07, 2016, 05:37:16 am »
So, perhaps an interesting plot twist.


When I go to the campaign page:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/world-s-first-artificial-gills-oxygen-respirator--2/coming_soon#/

I get a landing page that has their (fake) product picture, and says "Coming soon to Indiegogo" and a box to enter my email address and get on a mailing list.

So it appears IGG pulled the campaign again?  I am guessing they were waiting for some reason but pulled it prior to disbursing any funds.

Were any EEVblog members backers and can confirm if they were refunded? 
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Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #216 on: May 07, 2016, 07:29:16 am »
It is what I was expecting, but I didn't think they would wait until the campaign had ended. The problem Indiegogo has is that they have received a pile of messages over many weeks describing the many ways in which this campaign does not meet the Indiegogo rules and the reasons that the product is impossible to manufacture, and they have replied to these messages by email saying they will use the information that has been sent in in a review of the project. They no longer had any ability to claim ignorance.

If they do not fully refund the money, I think they would have no defence against a legal action. I suspect they are now playing a game so they do not get sued by Triton. I hope people get their money back soon, and I hope it is the last we see of Triton.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #217 on: May 07, 2016, 08:05:12 am »
So, perhaps an interesting plot twist.
When I go to the campaign page:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/world-s-first-artificial-gills-oxygen-respirator--2/coming_soon#/
I get a landing page that has their (fake) product picture, and says "Coming soon to Indiegogo" and a box to enter my email address and get on a mailing list.
So it appears IGG pulled the campaign again?  I am guessing they were waiting for some reason but pulled it prior to disbursing any funds.

It seems that way, can anyone confirm?
 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #218 on: May 07, 2016, 10:49:39 pm »
Hmm a thought, could these funding sites hold off killing the scam until the turn of the month to gain bank interest on it, then kill it and refund the principle afterwards?

I'm getting curious with how long they take to pull them.
 

Offline timb

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #219 on: May 08, 2016, 12:35:16 am »
Hmm a thought, could these funding sites hold off killing the scam until the turn of the month to gain bank interest on it, then kill it and refund the principle afterwards?

I'm getting curious with how long they take to pull them.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!
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Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #220 on: May 08, 2016, 12:45:36 am »
I was wondering why www.eevblog.com was embedded in the Triton "coming soon" page (looks like they put up the "coming soon" page from the first revamp).

If I go to http://www.Indiegogo.com , and go to the bottom of the page, there are a few links - one is "Generosity". If I copy the link, I get this:

Code: [Select]
https://www.generosity.com/?r=ORG_www_AU_0027_ref-XXXX_01620906_0000_www.eevblog.com
Looks like they cache the referrer that takes you to Indiegogo and add it to the Generosity link as the referrer. This still happens even if I go to Indiegogo directly on the same browser, so it seems that somehow the last referrer is remembered. I guess it is harmless.
 

Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #221 on: May 08, 2016, 01:39:32 am »
Hmm a thought, could these funding sites hold off killing the scam until the turn of the month to gain bank interest on it, then kill it and refund the principle afterwards?

I'm getting curious with how long they take to pull them.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner!


I don't think it works that way. At least, there would be minimal advantage to IndieGogo, if any. For one, if the credit card company charges backers immediately, say $100, then the processing fee of say around 2% means that IndieGogo only gets $98 out of that $100 for each backer. Let's say they negotiate a really good deal, say 1% processing, they still lose $1 on each $100 they collect. That's not an issue because they are not keeping the money... they pass it on to the campaign creator. It's the campaign creator who loses the card processing fees.

Then when it comes time to pay campaign creators, they take a portion (say 5%) plus tack on the processing fee (say 2%) so 7% gets taken off the top. The campaign creators get $93 out of every $100 that is collected. That's fine, IndieGogo gets their cut, and credit card processor gets their cut. That's if cards get processed immediately.

Now imagine if they didn't actually process any cards until the campaign got funded. That makes more sense. They would simply have an approval system with the credit card company. I'm not sure because I've never backed an IndieGogo campaign, so I don't know if it shows up on your credit card statement immediately or not. In any case, that would mean IndieGogo actually never has any money at all. So they wouldn't have any money to "invest" and gain interest on. So there is again no advantage for them to wait because they aren't making a profit since they never charged anybody in the first place if they are "refunding" or cancelling a campaign.

Now back to the first scenario... If IndieGogo has to refund money, they can't keep a cut. They have to pay back the full $100 to each and every backer. So they lose at least the credit card processing fee.... Once again, unless they have some incredible deal under the table with them, to return processing fees on refunds and "undo" everything at no cost. Most small businesses still get the "hit" on processing fees when they need to refund clients. It's not the processing company's fault, they did their job. It's between the merchant and client. So for example if I charge someone $100, then something happens and I have to refund them $100, I still only got $98 and refunded $100, so I actually lose $2 every time someone returns something, through no fault of my own. That burns, but it's been factored into the price of goods and happens rarely.

So assuming they get the money immediately, and unless IndieGogo is stashing the money away and getting some incredibly good interest in a few months, they are not going to get back their 1% to 2% processing fee from the credit companies. They'd have to be getting 12% interest per year on their investment to gain 1% per month that they held your money.

I don't think it's in IndieGogo's best interest to hold on to any money (or even process any cards) unless things get funded and have a good chance of being accepted by backers. They would not want to let things go that far because they are simply getting dinged with credit card processing fees and need to return full amounts to backers. The longer and more money something gets, they more they will lose in card processing fees that they can't get back. Unless there is some special arrangement behind the scenes with card processors, IndieGogo will be losing money on refunded campaigns. Maybe not a lot, but on a $1,000,000 campaign, even 0.5% is $5000. They only stand to win anything by letting campaigns complete so they get their cut.
 
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #222 on: May 08, 2016, 04:20:44 pm »
Indigogo needs 2 weeks until they handover the money, they not say why but maybe they did some diligence during the last week and decided to boot them again.
I'm quite sure that all backers got refunded, it would be a crime if not.
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Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #223 on: May 09, 2016, 01:47:16 pm »
A message from Indiegogo  posted on the Indiegogo Triton Scam Campaign
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-last-artificial-gills-scam#/comments

Quote
Hello,

Over a month ago, our Trust and Safety team reached out to the Triton team in response to numerous questions from our community surrounding the the claims made in their most recent campaign. Despite our repeated requests to substantiate these claims, the Triton team have not been able to comply, and we have decided to refund all contributions to the campaign.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #224 on: May 09, 2016, 01:57:26 pm »
A message from Indiegogo  posted on the Indiegogo Triton Scam Campaign
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton-world-s-last-artificial-gills-scam#/comments
Quote
Hello,
Over a month ago, our Trust and Safety team reached out to the Triton team in response to numerous questions from our community surrounding the the claims made in their most recent campaign. Despite our repeated requests to substantiate these claims, the Triton team have not been able to comply, and we have decided to refund all contributions to the campaign.

 :clap:
Must have gotten really high profile for them finally cave and do something.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #225 on: May 09, 2016, 02:31:07 pm »
There is a new copycat Triton campaign:

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/triton--9#/  This 9th Triton campaign is only after $500 and they are not actually offering anything - they just want people to send money.  :)

Does this mean Indiegogo would allow the original Triton people to start a new project if they changed the story again?  :palm: They could admit that they had to make up the story about the Microfilters and LOX to protect the real top-secret technology - Cold Fusion! They could use the Hydrogen in the water to generate the energy to separate the Oxygen, and also since the fusion would make Helium, they could mix it with the Oxygen to make a safe diving mixture.
 

Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #226 on: May 09, 2016, 03:26:10 pm »
This is all starting to become some kind of sick joke. Now another guy from the Middle East wants to crowd-fund enough money to buy himself a Triton. He only wants $500.

Somebody needs to crowd-fund my new book called:  " The Triton Effect "

It may be quite an interesting read, if I ever get around to writing it.  :-DD
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #227 on: May 09, 2016, 03:32:31 pm »
And what did we learned from this crowdfunding project: DON'T use a hammer on your lab coat when it is sucked in LOX!   :scared:
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 

Offline timb

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Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #228 on: May 10, 2016, 10:00:25 am »
Huh. So here's what had to be done before IGG actually took notice and canceled the scampaign (and refunded backers):

"We organized a small group of volunteers here in the San Francisco bay area in order to put pressure on Indiegogo. My own company provides litigation support for a number of prominent local law firms, including one that specializes in diving & marine-related litigation. We called in some favors to get them to participate with us so that we would be taken seriously. We had a large package of documents with supporting legal materials delivered by certified mail to the Vice President and General Counsel of Indiegogo. We also obtained the support and assistance of a California Legislative Assemblyman who expressed his willingness to spearhead an investigation if the outcome, indeed, was misappropriation of funds from innocent contributors." -Mark Johnson
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #229 on: May 10, 2016, 10:33:46 am »
A very lengthy expose of the people behind Triton Gills:
http://scampaignscandal.spacecrafted.com/
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #230 on: May 10, 2016, 03:05:54 pm »
 Wow, that's pretty damning - against both the Triton scammers AND Indiegogo.

 

Offline edy

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #231 on: June 05, 2016, 06:07:40 pm »
http://www.techinsider.io/risks-of-investing-in-crowdfunding-campaigns-2016-6

Interesting article... mentions a few other scampaigns in it. Plus an excerpt of where the law may be heading:

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The terms of service of crowdfunding sites state that they aren't responsible for campaigns that fail to deliver on their promises. Like many other profitable new businesses in the Silicon Valley era, these sites are platforms that allow other people to do business. They take a cut for making things convenient, but they aren't selling the products themselves.

That model is coming under scrutiny. States are challenging the idea that Uber drivers aren't employees, for example. Airbnb is facing increasing regulatory oversight. Rheingold says he thinks it's possible that courts might eventually decide crowdfunding platforms have at least some responsibility to evaluate the campaigns that run on their sites.

The article I linked above goes into further detail.

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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #232 on: June 13, 2016, 12:23:49 am »
Now it is completely gone, no loner on IGG, Youtube, Facebook & LinkedIn.
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 

Offline Delta

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #233 on: June 13, 2016, 02:33:37 am »
Did IGG release the funds?  In a way I hope they did.  If people are so stupid, nothing teaches like losing money.
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #234 on: June 14, 2016, 12:23:53 pm »
Did IGG release the funds?  In a way I hope they did.  If people are so stupid, nothing teaches like losing money.

IGG charges your CC / PP account after a campaign closes. Probably the account of the backers was never charged.
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 


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