Author Topic: Triton Artificial Gills  (Read 64260 times)

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Online Bud

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #50 on: March 28, 2016, 04:45:55 pm »
Better yet, they could harvest ultrasonic energy already in the ocean, i.e. Emitted by dolphins and submarines.
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Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #51 on: March 28, 2016, 05:05:38 pm »
Some begin to speculate if this device does electrolysis, here my two cents to this.

They say it runs for 45min you need about 25g of O2 for 45min.
To produce 1kg O2 with electrolysis you need 17.73 MJ. For 25g you need 443.3 kJ which is 123.1 Wh.
The best rechargeable lithium batteries have a energy density of 0.87 MJ/kg.
This results in a battery that weights 510g without any casing.
In addition to that electrolysis would also produce chlorine gas at the anode (where the O2 is) if you are diving in sea/saline water.
Not to say that you need a re-breather and a CO2 filter.

This is a 120Wh Lithium battery ($200, 780g)
http://www.amazon.com/8000mAh-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Battery-Camera/dp/B00J7LQS2W

Not electrolysis, 99.9% certain it's a membrane contactor.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #52 on: March 28, 2016, 05:38:40 pm »
They say it runs for 45min you need about 25g of O2 for 45min.
Only 25g ? How much litres is that under lets say 20 bar of pressure?
They could make them with O2 cartridges if it is that little you need.  :-//
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2016, 03:07:55 am »
They say it runs for 45min you need about 25g of O2 for 45min.
Only 25g ? How much litres is that under lets say 20 bar of pressure?
They could make them with O2 cartridges if it is that little you need.  :-//

Couple of things...

1) The debunking site linked before says we breathe in 21% oxygen and breathe out 16%, and all the calculations are based on that (it works out to 35.5mg of oxygen per breath).  But I wonder if we only breathed in gas with 35.5mg of oxygen, would we be able to use all that 35.5mg?  I am guessing our lungs aren't 100% efficient so if we only had 35.5mg available per breath, I think we'd perhaps suffocate.  I know humans can survive in thinner oxygen environments but I wonder what the limit is before there's not enough O2 to sustain consciousness? 

2) You could probably get 25g of oxygen into those little canisters pretty easily, except for the fact that pure O2 will kill us, so there would need to be 95% of "something else" to go along with that 25 grams of O2 making it a lot more by volume and weight than just the needed oxygen.
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Offline Rerouter

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2016, 04:15:25 am »
I think this is about as close as you could realistically get, with a battery possibly topping up the tank with a pump and reusing the C02 scrubber at the surface. note that size is a 10 minute emergency kit,

More or less they could adopt a similar approach if they had a power source capable of extracting lets say 50mL of oxygen per breath max, but i can not see them pulling it off without a breathing bag,

http://oceanrebreathers.com/micro_rebreather.asp
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2016, 04:54:22 pm »
They say it runs for 45min you need about 25g of O2 for 45min.
Only 25g ? How much litres is that under lets say 20 bar of pressure?
They could make them with O2 cartridges if it is that little you need.  :-//

The density of O2 is 1.429 g/L
25g = 17.5L
Oxygen can  be bought in cylinders with a pressure of 200bar. So you need a 87.5ml cylinder for 25g
It's not only possible it exists, called a re-breather. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebreather
Triton can never be a re-breather, where do you want to store the exhaled air?
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2016, 05:09:20 pm »
They say it runs for 45min you need about 25g of O2 for 45min.
Only 25g ? How much litres is that under lets say 20 bar of pressure?
They could make them with O2 cartridges if it is that little you need.  :-//

Couple of things...

1) The debunking site linked before says we breathe in 21% oxygen and breathe out 16%, and all the calculations are based on that (it works out to 35.5mg of oxygen per breath).  But I wonder if we only breathed in gas with 35.5mg of oxygen, would we be able to use all that 35.5mg?  I am guessing our lungs aren't 100% efficient so if we only had 35.5mg available per breath, I think we'd perhaps suffocate.  I know humans can survive in thinner oxygen environments but I wonder what the limit is before there's not enough O2 to sustain consciousness? 

2) You could probably get 25g of oxygen into those little canisters pretty easily, except for the fact that pure O2 will kill us, so there would need to be 95% of "something else" to go along with that 25 grams of O2 making it a lot more by volume and weight than just the needed oxygen.

Yes it must be a re-breather, that's what the title implies "Triton, World's First Artificial Gills Re-breather", the calculation is based on scuba diver lecture, 1-2L oxygen per day. Nasa came up with 800ml but that's maybe because they calculated it with sleeping time and for Zero G.
But it's not possible that a device that small can be a re-breather, where should it store the exhaled air?

Not only pure O2 can kill us, you have to get rid of the CO2.
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Offline yjb851220

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2016, 09:38:30 pm »
On the indiegogo site it says: April 2014 - We made our first prototype, April 2015 - Complete functional prototype, then, on the Behance site Jeabyun Yeon says: September 2015 - There is currently a prototype . Concept Design.

"Concept Design"
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2016, 11:38:23 pm »
On the indiegogo site it says: April 2014 - We made our first prototype, April 2015 - Complete functional prototype, then, on the Behance site Jeabyun Yeon says: September 2015 - There is currently a prototype . Concept Design.

"Concept Design"
I don't have any problem with that  - if they had a believable design. The first prototype proves the principles but may not be usable. The second prototype is fully functional, meets all the claimed specs but it ugly and non-mass manufacturable. The third prototype is the actual prototype of the final product as it will be manufactured including the fancy plastic mouldings.

The thing about this is if they actually do have a second "Complete functional prototype", they would be able to specify exactly what the device will do. If it has changed from the original proposal, they should be letting all the contributors know about the changes.

But if they have a battery that is 30 times smaller then current batteries and charges 1000 times faster - they don't need to mess around with a rebreather. A company like Apple would hand over billions dollars today to lock in the rights to that technology. They could pay back every contributor tenfold and hardly notice.

If it turns out they made a few typing mistakes - such as their battery is actually a lithium ion battery, and it is the same size as current batteries and charges exactly as fast as current batteries - they should be letting contributors know.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #59 on: March 30, 2016, 12:00:00 am »
I don't know if it has been mentioned, but I think I have found the "30 times smaller" battery.

It is a research project at the University of Illinois to fabricate Lithium Ion batteries in a new way:

http://www.extremetech.com/computing/153614-new-lithium-ion-battery-design-thats-2000-times-more-powerful-recharges-1000-times-faster

They were predicting it could have the same power density as Lithium Ion batteries but can be discharged faster. Here is a quote from the press release in 2013:

Quote
With so much power, the batteries could enable sensors or radio signals that broadcast 30 times farther, or devices 30 times smaller. The batteries are rechargeable and can charge 1,000 times faster than competing technologies - imagine juicing up a credit-card-thin phone in less than a second. In addition to consumer electronics, medical devices, lasers, sensors and other applications could see leaps forward in technology with such power sources available.

Looking at the graphs, it actually appears that the button-sized test batteries made by the University before this press release have an energy density of at least an order of magnitude lower then current Lithium technology.

So other then the fast recharge, all you are getting is a micro battery that you can flatten in a minute. It does not give any extra power to stay under water longer. And using experimental technology in an application where your life depends on it?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 12:51:59 am by amspire »
 

Offline yjb851220

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2016, 12:09:40 am »
On the indiegogo site it says: April 2014 - We made our first prototype, April 2015 - Complete functional prototype, then, on the Behance site Jeabyun Yeon says: September 2015 - There is currently a prototype . Concept Design.

"Concept Design"
I don't have any problem with that  - if they had a believable design. The first prototype proves the principles but may not be usable. The second prototype is fully functional, meets all the claimed specs but it ugly and non-mass manufacturable. The third prototype is the actual prototype of the final product as it will be manufactured including the fancy plastic mouldings.

The thing about this is if they actually do have a second "Complete functional prototype", they would be able to specify exactly what the device will do. If it has changed from the original proposal, they should be letting all the contributors know about the changes.

But if they have a battery that is 30 times smaller then current batteries and charges 1000 times faster - they don't need to mess around with a rebreather. A company like Apple would hand over billions dollars today to lock in the rights to that technology. They could pay back every contributor tenfold and hardly notice.

If it turns out they made a few typing mistakes - such as their battery is actually a lithium ion battery, and it is the same size as current batteries and charges exactly as fast as current batteries - they should be letting contributors know.

They have not made a "Complete functional prototype". It's just a lie and everyone is catching onto it. From the indiegogo webpage:

What's next?
We have created a working prototype, the next step is:

Finalize the engineering
Oversee production
Create and finalize the Triton case
Follow up our patents
Conduct final tests before we start manufacturing
 

Offline amspire

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #61 on: March 30, 2016, 12:41:06 am »

They have not made a "Complete functional prototype". It's just a lie and everyone is catching onto it. From the indiegogo webpage:
...
Follow up our patents
...
They are very keen on these patents. If they can get a bunch of patents funded by Triton contributors, then they can sit on them, even if they never make anything. I am sure that the contributors thought their money was going towards the manufacturing of a tested product, and not to lawyers for some world-wide patents.

I hate the fact that you can patent an "idea" even though you have no ability at all to make the idea work.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 12:48:22 am by amspire »
 

Offline altaic

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #62 on: March 30, 2016, 09:12:28 am »
If there is electrolysis involved, I'm not so sure that this project is total bullshit.

Electrolysis takes ~12kJ of energy to produce 1 liter of hydrogen in the ideal case, which means 0.5 liter of oxygen is also produced. The tidal volume (one normal breath) of an average adult is 0.5 liters, but air is only 20% oxygen, so only 0.1 liter of oxygen is necessary. Hydrogen is not poisonous, so up the ratio of oxygen to 0.33%, or 0.16 liters oxygen and 0.33 liters of hydrogen, for an overall ideal amount of energy being 4kJ per breath, which is ~1 Wh per breath. Just don't light a cigarette after taking a breath from the thing.

Adults have a resting breathing rate of 12-18 breaths per minute, or 720-1080 breaths per hour, which equates to 720W to 1080W average. Divide that by 2, since there are two generators on this device and you get an average power draw of 360W to 540W. They say "enjoy up to 45 minutes of snorkeling", which means the energy stored has to be 270Wh to 405Wh. There are li-ion batteries that claim 350Wh/kg, so that'd be 1.7lbs per generator for the best case 270Wh figure, so 3.4lbs total. Kinda hefty, but not orders of magnitude off.

Now, lets make the figures a bit more realistic:

1) The electrolysis won't be 100% efficient. A catalyst and electrolyte can get pretty decent efficiency, say 60%; no idea what catalyst they'd use, but it's immersed in saltwater, so the electrolyte's already there. Being pretty generous, that'd bring the battery to 450Wh which would weigh ~2.8lbs, or ~5.6lbs for both generators. Still not too far out there, and weight doesn't really matter under water; just slap some foam on it to compensate the lack of buoyancy.

2) People generally don't swim with a resting respiratory rate and tidal volume, though it varies vastly from person to person. From SCUBA, I've seen some people suck air like it's going out of style. For marketing, I'd imagine they had (or are planning on having) somebody meditating in a pool to get an ultra low respiratory rate for "up to 45 minutes".  *Shrug* that's typical marketing for you.

3) I'd be very interested as far as their catalyst(s) go, since I'm not fond of breathing chlorine gas or hydrochloric acid.

So, for typical use, I'd say it could do the business for 5 or 10 minutes, which isn't a bad outlook for a first gen device. And, it's marketed as a snorkeling accessory so it's not really life threatening when it runs out of juice (likely you would notice it slowing down generation and just surface). But anyway, that's all based on napkin calculations from general info on wikipedia (water electrolysis, hydrogen production, lung capacity, respiratory rate, power-to-weight ratio). Also, I've been awake for way too long, so I may have made some sort of critical error in said calculations. Good night.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 09:20:41 am by altaic »
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #63 on: March 30, 2016, 09:22:59 am »
If there is electrolysis involved, I'm not so sure that this project is total bullshit.

Electrolysis takes ~12kJ of energy to produce 1 liter of hydrogen in the ideal case, which means 0.5 liter of oxygen is also produced. The tidal volume (one normal breath) of an average adult is 0.5 liters, but air is only 20% oxygen, so only 0.1 liter of oxygen is necessary. Hydrogen is not poisonous, so up the ratio of oxygen to 0.33%, or 0.16 liters oxygen and 0.33 liters of hydrogen, for an overall ideal amount of energy being 4kJ per breath, which is ~1 Wh per breath. Just don't light a cigarette after taking a breath from the thing.

Adults have a resting breathing rate of 12-18 breaths per minute, or 720-1080 breaths per hour, which equates to 720W to 1080W average. Divide that by 2, since there are two generators on this device and you get an average power draw of 360W to 540W. They say "enjoy up to 45 minutes of snorkeling", which means the energy stored has to be 270Wh to 405Wh. There are li-ion batteries that claim 350Wh/kg, so that'd be 1.7lbs per generator for the best case 270Wh figure, so 3.4lbs total. Kinda hefty, but not orders of magnitude off.

Now, lets make the figures a bit more realistic:

1) The electrolysis won't be 100% efficient. A catalyst and electrolyte can get pretty decent efficiency, say 60%; no idea what catalyst they'd use, but it's immersed in saltwater, so the electrolyte's already there. Being pretty generous, that'd bring the battery to 450Wh which would weigh ~2.8lbs, or ~5.6lbs for both generators. Still not too far out there, and weight doesn't really matter under water; just slap some foam on it to compensate the lack of buoyancy.

2) People generally don't swim with a resting respiratory rate and tidal volume, though it varies vastly from person to person. From SCUBA, I've seen some people suck air like it's going out of style. For marketing, I'd imagine they had (or are planning on having) somebody meditating in a pool to get an ultra low respiratory rate for "up to 45 minutes".  *Shrug* that's typical marketing for you.

3) I'd be very interested as far as their catalyst(s) go, since I'm not fond of breathing chlorine gas or hydrochloric acid.

So, for typical use, I'd say it could do the business for 5 or 10 minutes, which isn't a bad outlook for a first gen device. And, it's marketed as a snorkeling accessory so it's not really life threatening when it runs out of juice (likely you would notice it slowing down generation and just surface). But anyway, that's all based on napkin calculations from general info on wikipedia (water electrolysis, hydrogen production, lung capacity, respiratory rate, power-to-weight ratio). Also, I've been awake for way too long, so I may have made some sort of critical error in said calculations. Good night.

Not electrolysis, 99.9% certain it's a membrane contactor.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #64 on: March 30, 2016, 09:59:52 am »
There are li-ion batteries that claim 350Wh/kg, so that'd be 1.7lbs per generator for the best case 270Wh figure, so 3.4lbs total. Kinda hefty, but not orders of magnitude off.
But they'd still be an order of magnitude (actually more like 2) larger than the space they allocate for it in their "thing"...
 

Offline Rerouter

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #65 on: March 30, 2016, 11:11:56 am »
Hmm, I thought i would take the extreme, what would it take to build the smallest possible closed circuit re-breather, (closed allow for lower stored air volume than open)

An oddity of this is, the average person could survive for a day off a 60L scuba tank at the surface while idle, (11000L / 200 bar = 55L), but such a tank would be too heavy for the average person to move, so thats our baseline, so for that we have 21% as oxygen, or 2310L of oxygen, 8580L of nitrogen 3.3L of Carbon Dioxide, and 117L of argon and other gases, for at surface at rest, for an entire day, with only 660L of that oxygen actually being used,

So what do we know, for a closed circuit re-breather, you need primarily oxygen, some nitrogen, and a tiny reserve of carbon dioxide that doesn't go through the filter to keep your brain happy, and can ignore those other gases and make up the difference with nitrogen,
 
We breath in 0.5 Liters of, Breath out 0.5 Liters, Then The lime soda scrubber absorbs 0.03L of carbon dioxide increasing its mass, but not reducing the pressure in the loop, so your left with 16% oxygen and 84% nitrogen, (Pressure Remains the same, but the carbon dioxide being effectively scrubbed gains you an extra % of oxygen as the volume has reduced by 30mL)

 so to add back in 5% of oxygen (25mL) assuming we don't have a way to isolate nitrogen, would require venting 5.24mL of Oxygen and 20mL of nitrogen,  to equalize pressure, in otherwords we only get an effective use from 79% of the oxygen we tank with the simplest option possible, note this is purely focused on a rigid air volume design like what they have drawn, with a breathing bag it works a little differently, not to mention with each breath you run out of nitrogen and breathing volume as the filter fills up, assuming the bare minimum, you get 16 breaths before its kaput,

Now if we take a breathing bag style with expanding volumes, and some overhead (breath out and breath in volume with filter between, lets say 2L per bag) you have a similar breath out, the filter captures the carbon maintains the same volume, you would be at something like 19.5% oxygen on the other side of the filter, it adds in a fresh 30mL, the pressure in the loop increases by approximately 750 Pascals, (0.75Kpa) and likely expands to compensate to some degree, As such you maintain your fixed volume of nitrogen, and have many breaths before the pressure release valve on the breathing bags gets triggered, then you back-fill the lost portion of nitrogen to make up the difference on the next breath cycle,  This leaves us with roughly a 150mL oxygen bottle, and from looking around generally the same size for Nitrogen or "Dilutant" bottle for 1 Hour on the surface,

Lets assume we plonk someone down for a 1 hour dive time at 10 meters, a normal recreational dive,  where they would normally use a 12L tank of air at 200 Bar, So using our resting baseline that means that they use up 2400L of air in an hour, now if they spend most of there time at that 10m mark, that means the work rate is ((2400 / 2) / 11000 * 24) = 2.61 Hours per hour, or a breathing rate of 78.3mL of oxygen per breath at the surface, this more or less gives us a guideline to how big our tanks need to be,

So lets take that 150mL bottle, * 2 for the depth of 10m, then * 2.61 for the work rate, we end up with a 0.8L tank pair, or 230g of oxygen and 200g of Nitrogen, Compared to 3.1Kg of air for the 12L tank dive, sadly the tanks them self out of water still weight 1.7Kg each (3.4 + 0.43 = 3.83Kg), vs the single 13Kg (13 + 3.1 = 16.1Kg) air tank, much lighter but not something you would stick on your face until you where already underwater. This is all assuming a 200 Bar pressure.

The filter to hold the soda lime seems to come more or less around the 5Kg mark which seems to cover 4 dives, again i would assume this is for safety margin, bringing the re-breather at this low end up to 8.8Kg, then the expansion bags, should be light, and the electronics and solenoids, lets bargin 700grams for that, so 9.5Kg is about the smallest i could see such a thing being done for with a normal recreational dive in mind, too heavy to stick on a face, but quite possible to build into a backpack,

At least that is the best approach i can come up with without waving a magic wand,

There is a darker way to approach this, you can replace the nitrogen with hydrogen, as its less likely to cause nitrogen sickness at depth, which would allow electrolysis to recharge, (providing you can scrub the other nasties) but its still 3670 Watt hours to electrolyse 1L of water assuming everything goes perfectly, and to do that 1 hour dive, you need 320L electrolysed for every hour at that depth, which is way more than any battery a person could physically lift could produce, (a normal car battery only gives you about 1200 Watt Hours),

much easier to run atmosphere through a dust and air filter then carbon dioxide scrubber to recharge at the surface, you could then use a normal nitrogen membrane to seperate off the nitrogen from the oxygen, and bobs your uncle for quick and dirty (and possibly unsafe) now this part just for the air compressing would only take 120 Watt hours to pump both tanks to pressure, plus what other loads the filters and nitrogen membrane add, but more than reasonable on a sizable lithium, Set up your recharge tanks on the beach, leave it to recharge over the hour your re-breather dive takes, and do back to back dives until your filter needs replacing (probably 2-3 dives)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 11:15:20 am by Rerouter »
 

Offline altaic

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2016, 05:04:36 pm »
Not electrolysis, 99.9% certain it's a membrane contactor.

But what kind of membrane? One could make a membrane, catalyzer, and battery all in one structure. Think metal-air cell batteries, but instead of producing electricity, it produces oxygen and hydrogen. Might even be able to recatalyze some of the hydrogen with the oxygen already dissolved in the water.
 

Offline altaic

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2016, 05:15:11 pm »
There are li-ion batteries that claim 350Wh/kg, so that'd be 1.7lbs per generator for the best case 270Wh figure, so 3.4lbs total. Kinda hefty, but not orders of magnitude off.
But they'd still be an order of magnitude (actually more like 2) larger than the space they allocate for it in their "thing"...

Yeah, it'd need to be bigger, but not so sure about 2 orders of magnitude; the battery I was referring to from wikipedia is 320Wh/l [1]. Hmm, I noticed they have a vibrator in the mouthpiece. Maybe they're energy harvesting the user's breathing?

[1] http://sionpower.com/pdf/articles/LIS%20Spec%20Sheet%2010-3-08.pdf
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 05:18:12 pm by altaic »
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #68 on: March 30, 2016, 05:22:41 pm »
Not electrolysis, 99.9% certain it's a membrane contactor.

But what kind of membrane? One could make a membrane, catalyzer, and battery all in one structure. Think metal-air cell batteries, but instead of producing electricity, it produces oxygen and hydrogen. Might even be able to recatalyze some of the hydrogen with the oxygen already dissolved in the water.

Porous hollow fiber contactor
 

Offline altaic

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #69 on: March 30, 2016, 05:25:09 pm »
Porous hollow fiber contactor

Eh, yeah, just looked at their pretty diagrams and it looks like they're really saying it's two membrane modules and a tiny lithium ion battery, which reeks of BS. OTOH, perhaps they're trying to protect their IP by misrepresenting their secret sauce.
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #70 on: March 31, 2016, 04:57:55 pm »
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 


Offline Corporate666

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2016, 09:58:21 pm »
I'm not sure if it's just a problem with the Indiegogo website, but the link to the project is no longer working.  It seems to be gone.

Also, when I do a search from the pain page of IGG for Triton, Gills or such, nothing shows up.

Temporary glitch?  Did IGG pull it?  The Triton shysters claimed a new video was coming today - wonder what happened.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2016, 10:53:11 pm »
To me it looks like it got pulled for a review or something..... but dunno
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2016, 11:04:17 pm »


Discuss  :)

Edit - basically scam from the original IGG description campaign... see next page
« Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 11:53:04 pm by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 


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