### Author Topic: Triton Artificial Gills  (Read 64769 times)

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#### ChunkyPastaSauce

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##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #100 on: April 03, 2016, 12:29:50 am »
Yeah but, how much breathable air can you really get out of small canister like that? Consider those small canisters of NiOx used in whip cream dispensers. *They'll give you two, maybe three complete lung inhales per canister. Now, I know this is liquid NiOx we're talking about, but I can't imagine it being that much more efficient.

*I mean, so I've been told...I would never do Whipits...Drugs are bad, stay in school kids.

Calculated that earlier, but for LO2. LNO2 has a bit less expansion, but it would still be usable (75% of lo2). The bigger thing is that the catalyzer would have to be 100% efficient, otherwise the person would be breathing some No2

In diving, oxygen partial pressure is usually considered safe at around 1.4 ppo2 or below for non extended duration dive times (http://www.diverite.com/articles/oxygen-toxicity-signs-and-symptoms/ http://www.nitrox.com/nitrox-basics-oxygen-management-part-3.html http://precisiondiving.net/blog/how-to-calculate-partial-pressure-of-oxygen/). At 15ft and 100% o2 the ppo2 is around 1.45 for seawater and less for fresh water.

LOX has an expansion ratio of 1:861 at atmospheric pressure. Assume 0.25L total LOX, then 210L of o2 at 1atm. Assume breathing rate of 15 breath per minute, and a non resting tidal volume of 1 liter = 15L per minute.  210LPM/15L = ~14 minutes breathing time.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 12:37:54 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »

#### amspire

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##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #101 on: April 03, 2016, 12:33:57 am »
I gather that Liquid 02 doesn't exist above -118 deg C. If you charge a cylinder with liquid oxygen at -200 deg C and let the temperature rise to room temperature, it will be a supercritical fluid - apparently that is the state when there is no difference between a gaseous state and a fluid state, but it is definitely not a liquid.

I think with practical pressures, you can only have compressed gaseous oxygen. I would hate to think what pressures you would get in the cylinders from supercritical oxygen in the boot of a car on a really hot sunny day.

If by "Liquid Oxygen", they just use liquid oxygen to partially fill a cylinder, and then let it warm up to a compressed gas state, then to ship by air, you need an expensive ATA-300 Category 1 case to ship the cylinders. This is a legal requirement particularly in the US.

Unless, of course, you are scuba diving on the moon Titan where the temperatures are perfect for bottled liquid oxygen and they have all those great methane lakes. The Triton is the perfect device for recreational diving on Titan.

One of the many things that really do not make sense is that if this product was close to production, they would have done thousand of hours of testing. They would have had no end of full uninterrupted 45 minute video clips of test divers swimming around underwater. They could show someone inserting the cylinders, and then doing a full dive. Instead, they had to actually rent a pool just to do the most recent clip where a diver managed to stay underwater for 7 minutes (something like that) with no activity. There is nothing to indicate that any functioning prototype exists.

All they have proven is that they have made an object that resembles the CAD renders and it can make nice bubbles.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 12:44:19 am by amspire »

#### ChunkyPastaSauce

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##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #102 on: April 03, 2016, 12:42:16 am »
I gather that Liquid 02 doesn't exist above -118 deg C. If you charge a cylinder with liquid oxygen at -200 deg C and let the temperature rise to room temperature, it will be a supercritical fluid - apparently that is the state when there is no difference between a gaseous state and a fluid state, but it is definitely not a liquid.

I think with practical pressures, you can only have compressed gaseous oxygen. I would hate to think what pressures you would get in the cylinders from supercritical oxygen in the boot of a car on a really hot sunny day.

If by "Liquid Oxygen", they just use liquid oxygen to partially fill a cylinder, and then let it warm up to a compressed gas state, then to ship by air, you need an expensive ATA-300 Category 1 case to ship the cylinders. This is a legal requirement particularly in the US.

Unless, of course, you are scuba diving on the moon Titan where the temperatures are perfect for bottled liquid oxygen and they have all those great methane lakes. The Triton is the perfect device for recreational diving on Titan.

One of the many things that really doesn't make sense is that if this product was close to production, they would have done thousand of hours of testing. They would have had no end of full uninterrupted 45 minute video clips of test divers swimming around underwater. They could show someone inserting the cylinders, and then doing a full dive. Instead, they had to actually rent a pool just to do the most recent clip where a diver managed to stay underwater for 7 minutes (something like that) with no activity. There is nothing to indicate that any functioning prototype exists.

All they have proven is that they have made an object that resembles the CAD renders and it can make nice bubbles.

I think the project is technically possible but practically impossible for general consumers. LNO2 might be more practical, but it's patented. I also do think it's within their technical, and probably business, abilities. Then liabilities...good luck

On the video, there is a newer one. It is really bizarre how it was setup and filmed imo.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 12:49:25 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »

#### amspire

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##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #103 on: April 03, 2016, 01:04:37 am »

I think the project is technically possible but practically impossible for consumers. LNO2 might be more practical, but it's patented. I also do think it's within there technical, and probably business, abilities. Then there's liabilities...good luck

On the video, there is a newer one. It is really bizarre how it was setup and filmed.

He actually stayed underwater for 12 minutes - I thought it was less, but I never watched the whole thing. They didn't show him surfacing, so we never saw if he had to gasp for air or not. Since we also didn't see him dive, we do not know if he used hyperventilating before the dive. The record time for holding breath underwater is 22 minutes.

Why didn't he stay underwater for 45 minutes? With no activity, he could probably stay underwater for twice that - if the Triton was working.

I read about the LNO2 and it would be extremely difficult to make something so small. The splitting of the NO happens between 400degC and 900degC. You can use a catalyst to get the reaction starting at 150 degC but the temperature rises once the reaction starts. There are dangerous and corrosive by-products that need to be converted with a platinum catalyst. What happens if the membrane ruptures and you start breathing pure nitrous oxide? What happens if the pump fails and you start sucking in air at 400 deg C? What happens if you take this thing out of the water while it is on?

They would be asking recreational users to swim around with an experimental high temperature chemical factory in their mouths.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:12:26 am by amspire »

#### ChunkyPastaSauce

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##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #104 on: April 03, 2016, 01:12:30 am »

I think the project is technically possible but practically impossible for consumers. LNO2 might be more practical, but it's patented. I also do think it's within there technical, and probably business, abilities. Then there's liabilities...good luck

On the video, there is a newer one. It is really bizarre how it was setup and filmed.
He actually stayed underwater for 12 minutes - I thought it was less, but I never watched the whole thing. They didn't show him surfacing, so we never saw if he had to gasp for air or not. Since we also didn't see him dive, we do not know if he used hyperventilating before the dive. The record time for holding breath underwater is 22 minutes.

I also don't like the angle of the shot, and the fact he's wearing a full mask. I think it would be possible to run a line from behind the head, next to the strap and into the mask. Then inhale through nose. Don't know though.

Also he seems uncomfortable to me, especially towards the end.

I read about the LNO2 and it would be extremely difficult to make something so small. The splitting of the NO happens between 400degC and 900degC. You can use a catalyst to get the reaction starting at 150 degC but the temperature rises once the reaction starts. There are dangerous and corrosive by-products that need to be converted with a platinum catalyst. What happens if the membrane ruptures and you start breathing pure nitrous oxide? What happens if the pump fails and you start sucking in air at 400 deg C? What happens if you take this thing out of the water while it is on?

They would be asking recreational users to swim around with an experimental high temperature chemical factory in their mouths.
I agree it's problematic but I dont think impossible. If I read the patent correctly the patent says the size of the reactor is 1in, but everything else is definitely not in favor. Apparently it generates enough heat, the patent covers heating of the dive suit. The other thing is that the patent speaks of hallow fiber membrane, which is what Triton says it has as well....

edited
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:26:27 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »

#### amspire

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##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #105 on: April 03, 2016, 01:17:34 am »
Had another look at the video. Can anyone actually see his chest moving at all? Just try breathing without moving your chest noticeably. It is not easy.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:19:56 am by amspire »

#### ChunkyPastaSauce

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##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #106 on: April 03, 2016, 01:40:14 am »
Had another look at the video. Can anyone actually see his chest moving at all? Just try breathing without moving your chest noticeably. It is not easy.

I can't.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:51:00 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »

#### ChunkyPastaSauce

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##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #107 on: April 03, 2016, 01:52:02 am »
The breathing rate is off I think too. Lower end for resting on land is 12bpm, resting diver is typically 16bpm,.. he's doing like 6-7 bpm. The volume seems really excessive too

#### Corporate666

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##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #108 on: April 03, 2016, 04:30:36 am »
I am not sure if someone has mentioned it already (probably) but there are already companies making small tanks of compressed air for diving use:

http://spareair.com/

So even IF the Triton product was technically possible (it isn't), then what purpose does it have to exist?  LOx is strictly controlled and dangerous, and the system Triton proposes uses disposable bottles anyway - so what advantage does it have over existing air systems?  Triton's proposal is more dangerous, MUCH more complex and would have to be dramatically more expensive.  Why would anyone ever entertain the idea of using any sort of chemicals or LOx or anything of the sort, when you can just take existing air and compress that and do away with the complexity and cost of all the crap Triton is claiming?

As far as the video goes, the fact that the guy doesn't move is highly suspicious.  If the system worked as they say, you would demonstrate it working and be swimming around underwater.  Even from a boredom standpoint, who wants to just sit there?  The only reason he would is because there is another reason - such as a concealed tank.  It's difficult but not impossible to breathe at that depth using lungs, so perhaps he has a small clear tube taped to the side of his face - you'd never notice it from the video.

One other thing about the video - I am sure nobody believes the device on the guy's face is using LOx and a "gill" type system to some how generate air for the guy.  That means the video was made and is shown in furtherance of fraud.  They are outright deceiving people using a falsified video to show something that isn't true.  The legal term is "Fraud by Deception" in the USA and it's a criminal act.   The government and law enforcement really need to step in on these scams and at least show they are taking an interest.  These guys have over $200k and it will likely go much higher if IGG does nothing to stop it. It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done. #### Nerull • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 638 ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #109 on: April 03, 2016, 04:36:39 am » I gather that Liquid 02 doesn't exist above -118 deg C. If you charge a cylinder with liquid oxygen at -200 deg C and let the temperature rise to room temperature, it will be a supercritical fluid - apparently that is the state when there is no difference between a gaseous state and a fluid state, but it is definitely not a liquid. I think with practical pressures, you can only have compressed gaseous oxygen. I would hate to think what pressures you would get in the cylinders from supercritical oxygen in the boot of a car on a really hot sunny day. If by "Liquid Oxygen", they just use liquid oxygen to partially fill a cylinder, and then let it warm up to a compressed gas state, then to ship by air, you need an expensive ATA-300 Category 1 case to ship the cylinders. This is a legal requirement particularly in the US. Unless, of course, you are scuba diving on the moon Titan where the temperatures are perfect for bottled liquid oxygen and they have all those great methane lakes. The Triton is the perfect device for recreational diving on Titan. One of the many things that really do not make sense is that if this product was close to production, they would have done thousand of hours of testing. They would have had no end of full uninterrupted 45 minute video clips of test divers swimming around underwater. They could show someone inserting the cylinders, and then doing a full dive. Instead, they had to actually rent a pool just to do the most recent clip where a diver managed to stay underwater for 7 minutes (something like that) with no activity. There is nothing to indicate that any functioning prototype exists. All they have proven is that they have made an object that resembles the CAD renders and it can make nice bubbles. These are liquid nitrogen tanks. They're vacuum insulated cryogenic storage tanks, similar to those used to store liquid oxygen. The contents are kept cold through constant vaporization, and that gas must be vented so that pressure doesn't climb too high. You may notice that one of the tanks looks a bit odd. Someone decided to fix a defective vent by welding it shut. Someone else had previously decided to fix a failed pressure burst disk by welding it shut. Over a long weekend pressure built up in the tank until it launched itself through a concrete floor and cracked a structural beam in the floor above, then blew out all the walls of the room above. You really don't want to let cryogenic liquids warm up in a sealed vessel.... #### ChunkyPastaSauce • Supporter • Posts: 527 • Country: ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #110 on: April 03, 2016, 05:25:59 am » I am not sure if someone has mentioned it already (probably) but there are already companies making small tanks of compressed air for diving use: http://spareair.com/ So even IF the Triton product was technically possible (it isn't), then what purpose does it have to exist? LOx is strictly controlled and dangerous, and the system Triton proposes uses disposable bottles anyway - so what advantage does it have over existing air systems? Triton's proposal is more dangerous, MUCH more complex and would have to be dramatically more expensive. Why would anyone ever entertain the idea of using any sort of chemicals or LOx or anything of the sort, when you can just take existing air and compress that and do away with the complexity and cost of all the crap Triton is claiming? As far as the video goes, the fact that the guy doesn't move is highly suspicious. If the system worked as they say, you would demonstrate it working and be swimming around underwater. Even from a boredom standpoint, who wants to just sit there? The only reason he would is because there is another reason - such as a concealed tank. It's difficult but not impossible to breathe at that depth using lungs, so perhaps he has a small clear tube taped to the side of his face - you'd never notice it from the video. One other thing about the video - I am sure nobody believes the device on the guy's face is using LOx and a "gill" type system to some how generate air for the guy. That means the video was made and is shown in furtherance of fraud. They are outright deceiving people using a falsified video to show something that isn't true. The legal term is "Fraud by Deception" in the USA and it's a criminal act. The government and law enforcement really need to step in on these scams and at least show they are taking an interest. These guys have over$200k and it will likely go much higher if IGG does nothing to stop it.

Problem is the breathing time. Even the large one of those cylinders has something like 5-6 minute and maybe 10 if youre not moving

I do think LO2 is possible to do and LNO2 is plausible to do. LNO2 is much more complicated and has safety problems amspire mentioned, but would be more convenient for a consumer since the LNO2 can be shipped. The LO2 I don't think is technically that difficult to do, but LO2 transport and handling is much more dangerous/difficult. LO2 actually doesn't have much regulation for individuals from what I can tell, other than transport.

I don't know what to make of the video but highly suspicious of it. They are in Sweden, so I wonder what their laws are like there.

I am really surprised the campaign came back after the first one ended. The original was pretty deceptive, IGG should have banned them but hasn't for some reason     ^)....... #### ChunkyPastaSauce • Supporter • Posts: 527 • Country: ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #111 on: April 03, 2016, 05:31:22 am » I gather that Liquid 02 doesn't exist above -118 deg C. If you charge a cylinder with liquid oxygen at -200 deg C and let the temperature rise to room temperature, it will be a supercritical fluid - apparently that is the state when there is no difference between a gaseous state and a fluid state, but it is definitely not a liquid. I think with practical pressures, you can only have compressed gaseous oxygen. I would hate to think what pressures you would get in the cylinders from supercritical oxygen in the boot of a car on a really hot sunny day. If by "Liquid Oxygen", they just use liquid oxygen to partially fill a cylinder, and then let it warm up to a compressed gas state, then to ship by air, you need an expensive ATA-300 Category 1 case to ship the cylinders. This is a legal requirement particularly in the US. Unless, of course, you are scuba diving on the moon Titan where the temperatures are perfect for bottled liquid oxygen and they have all those great methane lakes. The Triton is the perfect device for recreational diving on Titan. One of the many things that really do not make sense is that if this product was close to production, they would have done thousand of hours of testing. They would have had no end of full uninterrupted 45 minute video clips of test divers swimming around underwater. They could show someone inserting the cylinders, and then doing a full dive. Instead, they had to actually rent a pool just to do the most recent clip where a diver managed to stay underwater for 7 minutes (something like that) with no activity. There is nothing to indicate that any functioning prototype exists. All they have proven is that they have made an object that resembles the CAD renders and it can make nice bubbles. These are liquid nitrogen tanks. They're vacuum insulated cryogenic storage tanks, similar to those used to store liquid oxygen. The contents are kept cold through constant vaporization, and that gas must be vented so that pressure doesn't climb too high. You may notice that one of the tanks looks a bit odd. Someone decided to fix a defective vent by welding it shut. Someone else had previously decided to fix a failed pressure burst disk by welding it shut. Over a long weekend pressure built up in the tank until it launched itself through a concrete floor and cracked a structural beam in the floor above, then blew out all the walls of the room above. You really don't want to let cryogenic liquids warm up in a sealed vessel.... This is why you can't reasonably ship it to people. They have to be transported with venting. Even if it could last through transport and not end-up with an empty bottle, LO2 is 100% pure oxidizer and vents continuously in containers, so transporting is regulated. #### amspire • Super Contributor • Posts: 3785 • Country: ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #112 on: April 03, 2016, 06:18:49 am » It is very simple. Liquid Oxygen does not exist above -118 degrees C, so it is not possible for Triton to use Liquid Oxygen. They cannot be using cryogenic containers, because they are only useful when the contents are at cryogenic temperatures. If Triton are again being misleading to "protect their patent applications", then they probably should restart their fundraising for a third time. Better still, wait until there is a product. There is still no sign of an actually working prototype. The latest video is not at all convincing, and the thing in the diver's mouth could be a couple of bits of black poly irrigation tubing stuck into a block of black plasticine for all I can see. « Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 06:21:41 am by amspire » #### ChunkyPastaSauce • Supporter • Posts: 527 • Country: ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #113 on: April 03, 2016, 07:08:18 am » It is very simple. Liquid Oxygen does not exist above -118 degrees C, so it is not possible for Triton to use Liquid Oxygen. They cannot be using cryogenic containers, because they are only useful when the contents are at cryogenic temperatures. If Triton are again being misleading to "protect their patent applications", then they probably should restart their fundraising for a third time. Better still, wait until there is a product. There is still no sign of an actually working prototype. The latest video is not at all convincing, and the thing in the diver's mouth could be a couple of bits of black poly irrigation tubing stuck into a block of black plasticine for all I can see. You can certainly keep lo2 in a container, but there will be a boil-off rate depending on pressure and how well the container is insulated. #### jancumps • Supporter • Posts: 1216 • Country: • New Low ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #114 on: April 03, 2016, 08:31:16 am » On the campaign page: "portable, convenient for travel" Yes, but with these canisters, your luggage won't fly with you #### EEVblog • Administrator • Posts: 30250 • Country: ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #115 on: April 03, 2016, 12:22:26 pm » On the video, there is a newer one. It is really bizarre how it was setup and filmed imo. Yes, very controlled. You don't see him move position, or enter the water, or exit the water. All the hallmarks of a staged event rather than a proper demo, totally the opposite to what you want if you wanted to prove it to the skeptics. The prestidigitation is strong in this one. #### EEVblog • Administrator • Posts: 30250 • Country: ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #116 on: April 03, 2016, 12:31:00 pm » Comments on the video are moderated too. No negative comments at all, and you would expect that based on the very high ratio of thumbs down. #### jancumps • Supporter • Posts: 1216 • Country: • New Low ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #117 on: April 03, 2016, 12:41:37 pm » This is one of those days where I think that crowd funding platforms are digging their own hole. High profile campaigns are debunked by people that are domain experts within hours. In particular the 'Projects we Love' and 'Editor's Choice' ones. Crowd funding is great. But if the platforms keep on avoiding due diligence - and pointing to the disclaimers and terms of condition- we're heading to a meltdown. If you make that much money on your platform, get experts aligned that can perform that bullshit check. Genuine good projects will not be able to get funded because people are about to get put down by the jokers. And I think that the IndieGoGo and KickStarter staff are not up to the task. Yes, they're up to the task of asking their share. No, They're not up to the task of filtering out the blatant impossible projects. That's not enough, if crowdfunding is your core business. #### Kalidor • Regular Contributor • Posts: 113 • Country: ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #118 on: April 03, 2016, 12:55:58 pm » It is very simple. Liquid Oxygen does not exist above -118 degrees C, so it is not possible for Triton to use Liquid Oxygen. They cannot be using cryogenic containers, because they are only useful when the contents are at cryogenic temperatures. Where is the problem, you can store it as superheated vapor, what O2 at 1atm / 20deg C is, or supercritical fluid. Here you can buy some http://www.ebay.com/bhp/oxygen-tank They are "normally" filled with up to 200 bar = supercritical fluid. However I would not try to breath pure O2! Phase diagram of oxygen in the p-T space. « Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:03:01 pm by Kalidor » In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. #### amspire • Super Contributor • Posts: 3785 • Country: ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #119 on: April 03, 2016, 01:15:30 pm » Supercritical O2 is not the same as Liquid O2. Triton say they are using Liquid O2. A cylinder of compressed supercritical O2 will have something like 1/5th the capacity as the same volume of liquid O2. Oxygen has no liquid state above the critical point at -118 deg C. « Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:17:36 pm by amspire » #### wraper • Supporter • Posts: 10575 • Country: ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #120 on: April 03, 2016, 01:36:58 pm » Comments on the video are moderated too. No negative comments at all, and you would expect that based on the very high ratio of thumbs down. Yes it is, I can see some of what they deleted through google notifications because I commented before. « Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 01:39:39 pm by wraper » #### Nerull • Frequent Contributor • Posts: 638 ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #121 on: April 03, 2016, 02:43:55 pm » It is very simple. Liquid Oxygen does not exist above -118 degrees C, so it is not possible for Triton to use Liquid Oxygen. They cannot be using cryogenic containers, because they are only useful when the contents are at cryogenic temperatures. Where is the problem, you can store it as superheated vapor, what O2 at 1atm / 20deg C is, or supercritical fluid. Here you can buy some http://www.ebay.com/bhp/oxygen-tank They are "normally" filled with up to 200 bar = supercritical fluid. However I would not try to breath pure O2! Phase diagram of oxygen in the p-T space. Those are GOX tanks, not LOX tanks. They contain no liquid, and can hold far less. You can already buy small breathing gas cylinders, there would be precisely nothing new there. But they aren't going to last 45 minutes. « Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 02:48:50 pm by Nerull » #### altaic • Supporter • Posts: 45 ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #122 on: April 03, 2016, 05:16:24 pm » The breathing rate is off I think too. Lower end for resting on land is 12bpm, resting diver is typically 16bpm,.. he's doing like 6-7 bpm. The volume seems really excessive too Yes, very controlled. You don't see him move position, or enter the water, or exit the water. All the hallmarks of a staged event rather than a proper demo, totally the opposite to what you want if you wanted to prove it to the skeptics. The prestidigitation is strong in this one. Free divers are trained to control their metabolism and breathing. In the static apnea discipline, where the diver basically meditates near the surface in a pool, people have lasted for over ten minutes with no air. Pretty sure that's what's happening here as far as lasting for a long time on a very small O2 supply. Dodgy marketing indeed. Re. O2 at 20C, yeah it's supercritical. Thought gaseous O2 was dangerous? Hah, there's no way in hell anybody would carry supercritical oxygen around, let alone ship it, for recreation. Of course, that's unless they've come up with a better storage method, a la forcing hydrogen into a metal matrix to control expansion. Unfortunately, O2 and metal don't really get along... « Last Edit: April 03, 2016, 05:18:38 pm by altaic » #### Corporate666 • Supporter • Posts: 2004 • Country: • Remember, you are unique, just like everybody else ##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills « Reply #123 on: April 03, 2016, 10:41:55 pm » Problem is the breathing time. Even the large one of those cylinders has something like 5-6 minute and maybe 10 if youre not moving I do think LO2 is possible to do and LNO2 is plausible to do. LNO2 is much more complicated and has safety problems amspire mentioned, but would be more convenient for a consumer since the LNO2 can be shipped. The LO2 I don't think is technically that difficult to do, but LO2 transport and handling is much more dangerous/difficult. LO2 actually doesn't have much regulation for individuals from what I can tell, other than transport. I don't know what to make of the video but highly suspicious of it. They are in Sweden, so I wonder what their laws are like there. I am really surprised the campaign came back after the first one ended. The original was pretty deceptive, IGG should have banned them but hasn't for some reason^).......

Yes, the breathing time of the spare air units is less, however, the Triton system is strapped to your face, whereas a tank doesn't need to be.  The weight of the tank is a non-issue because in water, you don't feel the weight... and size isn't an issue unless you're in tight places, which would be absolutely insanity with a system like Triton (even if it worked).  So what is the benefit of Triton over a compressed air system?  With air, you can literally just connect it to your existing air tank and fill it.  Around here, an 80-120 cu-ft tank costs \$5 to fill, and there are lots of places to choose from anywhere that you might want to go diving.

For LO2... how would they get around the storage/hazard issue?  Maybe I am wrong but it seems that is a pretty extreme use case for LO2... being in the sun, being bounced around on a boat, being in water.  That seems to be pretty huge temperature swings and LO2 is problematic (at best) to store/transport even in much tighter controlled conditions, no?  As for LNO2, you can already get your air tanks filled with "Nitrox" for diving... so that goes back to me not really seeing what Triton's system supposedly brings to the table?  They talk about some sort of chemical oxygen generation and liquid oxygen "working in conjunction with gills" (whatever that means) - so at best it's quite a complicated setup compared to just taking a tank that just needs a regulator and that's it.

So even if it could work, the only benefit they are offering is a smaller size, but at (significantly) higher cost and less reliability and much more dangerous.  I just can't understand the backers mindset.

It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.

#### Corporate666

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##### Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #124 on: April 03, 2016, 10:50:34 pm »
This is one of those days where I think that crowd funding platforms are digging their own hole.
High profile campaigns are debunked by people that are domain experts within hours. In particular the 'Projects we Love' and 'Editor's Choice' ones.

Crowd funding is great. But if the platforms keep on avoiding due diligence - and pointing to the disclaimers and terms of condition- we're heading to a meltdown.

If you make that much money on your platform, get experts aligned that can perform that bullshit check.
Genuine good projects will not be able to get funded because people are about to get put down by the jokers.
And I think that the IndieGoGo and KickStarter staff are not up to the task.
No, They're not up to the task of filtering out the blatant impossible projects.

Side note: I read an article somewhere, I believe it was recent news, that Kickstarter was hiring an in-house "project feasibility guru", whose job was to assess whether a project was a scam or based on junk science or claims.

I believe it was in response to a Kickstarter project for "washing machine balls", which was an old scam from decades who where plastic balls put into your washing machine were claimed to change the molecules of water and create hydrogen peroxide, eliminating the need for detergent.

I read the comments and they were pathetically funny... dumb backers saying "I have been using these for a few weeks and I don't think they work.  I have friends and coworkers saying I smell and when I tell them I wash clothes regularly, they ask if I am using detergent!".

In this case, I can't see how IGG doesn't have liability.  They were notified that the project was essentially a scam, and they clearly got in touch with Triton and told them they can't keep it up in the manner they did.  So they've demonstrated an interest and effort in filtering out outright scams.  However, it's a fact that LOx can't work if only due to it not existing above -118c, and surely IGG has seen this in the comments and been notified of it by users.  Yet they continue to allow the project to continue.

To me, that's tantamount to willful participation in the scam.
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.

Smf