Author Topic: Zero Mass Water  (Read 8700 times)

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Online EEVblog

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Zero Mass Water
« on: September 17, 2017, 10:23:23 pm »
Not a crowd funder, but another solar powered water from the air project, but this one is shipping.
2L+ water a day claimed.

https://zeromasswater.com/

This guy reckons he's getting one installed:



« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 10:25:34 pm by EEVblog »
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2017, 10:42:17 pm »
Let's say it's got a 200W panel in it.
One of the best dehumidifiers on the market gets 1.83L/kWh
http://www.frigidaire.com/Home-Comfort/Dehumidifiers/FFAD7033R1/
That solar panel will produce roughly 1kWh/day over the year in say San Jose.
So if it's on par with good dehumidifiers then it's possible it may be able to get the claimed 2L/day under the best circumstances.
Will be interesting to see real world results.

Looks at the thing though, it's huge, and it costs $3700

Notice how they are careful not to tell you how much water it actually produces at their own HQ

 

Offline Avacee

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2017, 10:48:27 pm »
In the Business Insider Puff-piece linked from their main page there is a claim of 5L/day
http://uk.businessinsider.com/zero-mass-solar-panels-2016-10?r=US&IR=T
Quote
Friesen* says that on average, one Source device can harvest 5 liters of water per day. Because of the device depends on solar power, he says, that number doesn’t vary too drastically between dry and wet climates — solar radiation is stronger in dry places where there are fewer water molecules in the air to absorb it, and water vapor is more prevalent in wet places where solar radiation is less intense.
* = Company CEO Cody Friesen, a material scientist and engineering professor at Arizona State University
and
Quote
Zero Mass Water boasts that one Source is able to produce enough clean drinking water each day to satisfy a family of four; however if all four members followed the 8-glasses-per-day rule, that family would wind up about 3 liters short.
But nowhere do any of the puff-pieces say how much water a family of four needs per day. It does mention a household in the US currently averages 100 gallons (note household so shower, washing machine, dishwasher, car wash, gardening, etc)
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 10:53:28 pm by Avacee »
 

Offline mc172

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2017, 11:15:36 pm »
 |O What is wrong with these people?
 

Offline hayatepilot

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2017, 06:25:43 am »
Those only make sense if you have a house far away from any water supply network and no rivers or lakes nearby, i.e. in the desert.
A very very niche application. But instead they decided to market it to those who are "worried about the water quality".  :palm: :palm:
 

Offline gonzo_the_great

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2017, 08:27:59 am »
If it's water quality that is the issue, and you have sun, use a solar still.
If there is no ground water, then there is probably no useable humidity.

But if you want to make an easy $3700, this is the product for you! Assuming you are the seller.

 

Online jpanhalt

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2017, 09:23:02 am »
Source replied to the question about in what range of humidity it will work with saying it works in Scottsdale, AZ.   One interesting thing about Scottsdale is that it is at a relatively low elevation (1257 ft MSL) for Arizona and although it is further North than Tucson (elevation 2389 ft),  it is hotter and more humid.  Even places like Palm Springs, CA have lower humidity.  Why not supply real numbers?   Will it work outside in January in Minnesota?   ;D
 

Online StillTrying

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2017, 09:28:42 am »
This guy reckons he's getting one installed:

I'm not sure he'll be a 100% independent tester. (that's the polite version  >:D)

"I've helped start a dozen companies, sold four of them, invested in more than fifty of my friend's companies, and am a mentor to many others.
If you're an tech startup in Austin or an email startup anywhere in the world, then I want to help you.
 #austin #entrepreneur #startup #angel #investor"

https://about.me/joshuabaer
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2017, 12:29:03 pm »
Lifetime of 10 years, 3700 dollar cost, that is 1 dollar/day, or 0.5 dollar/claimed liter. I dont think it is all that economical. Considering you need 2+ liters of potable water a day, you need to invest into 2 panels? Brita water filter: 6 EUR/month (yes, it became recently very expensive) or 0.06 cent per liter.

Before anyone asks, I cannot "just" drink the tap water here, it pretty much makes me sick.
 

Offline Mukrakiish

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2017, 01:04:22 pm »
Lifetime of 10 years, 3700 dollar cost, that is 1 dollar/day, or 0.5 dollar/claimed liter. I dont think it is all that economical. Considering you need 2+ liters of potable water a day, you need to invest into 2 panels? Brita water filter: 6 EUR/month (yes, it became recently very expensive) or 0.06 cent per liter.

Before anyone asks, I cannot "just" drink the tap water here, it pretty much makes me sick.

Heck, even here where I am, a Brita jug isn't sufficient for the tap water. We have to go get the RO stuff in the big jugs. $$$
 

Offline madires

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2017, 01:21:13 pm »
I wonder if all those water-from-air devices got major hygiene problems. Air carries all sorts of bacteria, spores and what have you. Most of that will happily flourish on the wet dehumidifier despite being cold. That means you would have to clean the device regularly and also have to add filtering. We got a proper dehumidifier for the winter garden and I see the nasty stuff building up with time.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2017, 10:21:55 pm »
Scottsdale does have relatively low average humidity, but yeah without hard data it is meaningless to say it "works year-long".

http://www.city-data.com/city/Scottsdale-Arizona.html
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 10:41:14 pm by thm_w »
 

Offline gonzo_the_great

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2017, 11:45:01 pm »
Brita filters are not going to sterilise water. Just take out some of the hardness. (At least the ones sold in the UK)

If the water has pathogens, just boiling it is the cure-all.
If it has contaminents, then you have to start looking at carbon filters, or distilation.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2017, 10:03:26 pm »
Brita filters are not going to sterilize water. Just take out some of the hardness. (At least the ones sold in the UK)

If the water has pathogens, just boiling it is the cure-all.
If it has contaminants, then you have to start looking at carbon filters, or distillation.

Brita is a carbon filter though.

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Z7iT5WCbL._SL1300_.jpg
 

Offline NANDBlog

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2018, 03:43:29 pm »
I've just read about this system again.
Apparently, it is a huge success. With the usual marketing strategy:

Make your target audience the clueless idiots.

It produces "raw water" which is apparently very popular in the USA. "Raw water" is sold at about 40 dollar per 2.5 gallon. And it is "pure".
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2018, 10:50:54 pm »
Brita filters are not going to sterilise water. Just take out some of the hardness. (At least the ones sold in the UK)

If the water has pathogens, just boiling it is the cure-all.
If it has contaminents, then you have to start looking at carbon filters, or distilation.

Brita filters are rubbish when it comes to reducing hardness. I have worked on plenty of coffee machines that have been the victims of them.

Water purification and modification is a complete science and needs to done based on what the water source and what the intended use is on a case by case basis.
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order :)
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2018, 10:56:26 pm »
Let's say it's got a 200W panel in it.
One of the best dehumidifiers on the market gets 1.83L/kWh
http://www.frigidaire.com/Home-Comfort/Dehumidifiers/FFAD7033R1/
That solar panel will produce roughly 1kWh/day over the year in say San Jose.
So if it's on par with good dehumidifiers then it's possible it may be able to get the claimed 2L/day under the best circumstances.
Will be interesting to see real world results.

Looks at the thing though, it's huge, and it costs $3700

Notice how they are careful not to tell you how much water it actually produces at their own HQ



They do now! In the middle of their page it says XXX Liters produced. (Currently 511) If that's their total for all systems thus far... :-DD thanks for debunking yourselves! A small neighborhood would use that up just taking a shower!

EDIT: I bet it rained more than that in those places this whole time!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 10:59:06 pm by Cyberdragon »
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline thm_w

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2018, 11:45:38 pm »
They were on Ask This Old House, which is slightly disappointing because they are a decent source of home repair/DIY information (other than the gimmick/useless gadgets like this).



Why they would capture water on a house that has access to city water makes no sense. He went over the usual bullshit, and even implied it would be cleaner water.. Would have been much more useful to have a solar water heater, or use the solar panel to power the home.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 11:47:48 pm by thm_w »
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2018, 09:41:20 pm »
If it's water quality that is the issue, and you have sun, use a solar still.
If there is no ground water, then there is probably no useable humidity.

But if you want to make an easy $3700, this is the product for you! Assuming you are the seller.

I think you can have a ground drilled for water, for as much as a couple thousand buck, can't you? Not sure what the drilling costs really are in the US.
 

Offline Gallymimus

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #19 on: March 12, 2018, 02:49:02 pm »
What's funny is that this is actually legit technology and a legitimate company!
 

Offline nuclearcat

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2018, 01:13:18 am »
Returning dead thread to life. One friend sent me link with this project, and a bit deeper study and seems this project is not totally "one more dehumidifier with peltier/compressor scam".
Take a look in one of creator patents: https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2016081863A1/en?oq=Cody+Friesen
So basically math equation dave is doing, related to basic dehumidifier model powered by electric solar panel, which is not highly efficient (due solar panels electricity generation efficiency), but here, seems they use large panels for heating, and probably if they absorb humidity from air to some sort of desiccant, overnight or morning(when air humidity also higher), they they can use sun heat to do desorption, and let's say evaporate this water and get hot, dense water vapor in chamber, which is much easier to condensate by just cooling it down to environment temperature. I guess in such case energy equation is quite different.
They say something about regeneration liquid, so it looks like even more advanced than i thought.
Still, operating cost of device is way too high.
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2018, 01:21:28 am »
I reckon a rock and a bit of plastic would be as effective but it's harder to market a humble rock :palm:

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Offline nuclearcat

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2018, 04:09:33 am »
I reckon a rock and a bit of plastic would be as effective but it's harder to market a humble rock :palm:


I dont think it is going to work at very dry places(30-35% humidity), where everything dried up during long rainless summer+.
This is also why traditional dehumidifiers also not very efficient in such conditions, as source of water, because dew point temperature is quite low with such humidity.
 

Offline hayatepilot

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2018, 09:50:04 am »
^^^^^^

This works very well on the beach where there is plenty of water but it is not drinkable.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2018, 05:30:56 pm »
Why would it not be drinkable? If it's condensate, what's polluting it?
 

Offline helius

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2018, 05:36:17 pm »
I think "it" refers to the seawater.

Water, water, every where,
And all the boards did shrink;
Water, water, every where,
Nor any drop to drink.

But filtering seawater with small hand-powered RO pumps (Katadyn) is probably more practical in many situations.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2018, 05:59:21 pm »
Quote
I think "it" refers to the seawater.

Ah. Rereading I see that you are correct :)
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2018, 06:30:38 am »
No, he means the beach water is normally not drinkable.

Also, "regeneration liquid"? :-DD :bullshit: There should only be one liquid...water. Refridgerent is usually gas, so unless that's what they mean it's a load of hoey.
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline nuclearcat

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2018, 06:54:16 am »
Some solutions for extracting water from air using brine, so it might be some regeneration fluid for it.
https://www.igb.fraunhofer.de/content/dam/igb/en/documents/sheets/pt/1711_PB-pt-wasserausluft-en.pdf
 

Offline helius

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2018, 07:09:11 am »
Also, "regeneration liquid"? :-DD :bullshit: There should only be one liquid...water. Refridgerent is usually gas, so unless that's what they mean it's a load of hoey.
Ammonia.
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2018, 12:33:10 pm »
I think he means there's plenty of undrinkable water that can be made potable by the plastic sheet trick
M0UAW
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2018, 08:05:23 pm »
Also, "regeneration liquid"? :-DD :bullshit: There should only be one liquid...water. Refridgerent is usually gas, so unless that's what they mean it's a load of hoey.
Ammonia.

Pretty sure that's not allowed anymore. EDIT: In consumer goods and residential that is.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 08:09:46 pm by Cyberdragon »
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline exile

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Re: Zero Mass Water
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2018, 08:37:55 am »
What I can see seems to be able to keep what it promises.
I would think it builds absorption technology and uses the Solar thermal collector.
(see )
Solar thermal collector has better efficiency than usual solar panels.
So 1.2x1.2m * 2p * 1000w / m² * 80% ~ 2300w in 5 hours should compile it in 11.5Kwh and suppose it provides about 1L / kwh, then the generara should be 11L / day on a good day.
The solar panel in the middle is for fans and control systems, etc.

If it's worth a price then no. And really dry areas, the function is highly limited.
 


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