Poll

3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?

Very useful power efficiency control products.
2 (3%)
Software Defined Electricity is the future!
1 (1.5%)
Nothing new, all been done before.
4 (6.1%)
Not sure / don't know.
5 (7.6%)
Probably mostly just snake oil / scam.
54 (81.8%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?  (Read 44888 times)

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Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #125 on: June 11, 2019, 08:32:57 pm »
Perhaps you missed other functions of the product. Quote: "Digital Multiparametric Measurement of Electricity to provide visibility with a new layer of electricity data and analytics".

Ahh, right. "A new layer of analytics" can never have enough ADC resolution.  :)
I want my electricity measured in True Color and Dolby THC!
 

Online Kean

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #126 on: June 11, 2019, 08:48:20 pm »
Might I remind you that we are acquiring error free data

Can you please explain what you mean by "error free data"?

Maybe we misunderstand what you mean by it.  As explained previously, there is no such thing as "error free" when measuring physical phenomenon (apart from some rather exceptional circumstances).  There is calibration error, quantisation error, and noise.  Errors will then accumulate in any derived parameters.  Read up on ENOB as mentioned by ogden.

"Garbage in, garbage out" as they say.

Quote
so while yes it is only measuring current and voltage, the error free data and calculations allow SDE to receive 24 bit resolution on each of the parameters (i.e. reactive power, phase angle, harmonics, etc.).

Yeah, if you have 24-bit inputs then unless you do your math wrong you can retain 24-bit (math)* resolution (more or less) with the derived parameters.

Quote
Your suggestion that we are using a 24 bit ADC chip is also based on the presumption that AD conversion is separate from the data processing, when in fact it is not, it is all done simultaneously on 26 channels for individual parameters. All 26 channels are measured individually on each phase, neutral and ground, not all together.

Um, what?

It was you stating that you're doing 24-bit sampling at MHz rates (it is also in your white paper).

We're happy for you to correct us if we have assumed something wrong, but be professional and give us some facts if you would like to get treated professionally in return.

OK, so what I understand from this response is that you sample the 2 parameters on all circuits in parallel with multiple ADCs, and I assume you then do the calculations for derived parameters "simultaneously" with an FPGA.

As you state there are only two parameters you can actually measure per phase/neutral/ground circuit - i.e. voltage and current.  The rest of your 26 derived parameters are going to be calculated from those plus elapsed time.

Just because you may be collecting 26 parameters at a high rate doesn't mean you're sampling at the speed you have constantly implied.

You have demonstrated with your own words that the 6ns sampling interval was nonsense all along.

* edited to add "(math)" - rather unlikely you can calculate derived parameters like PF, phase angle, etc to actual 24 bit resolution (i.e 6+ digits!).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 08:55:55 pm by Kean »
 

Online Kean

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #127 on: June 12, 2019, 11:18:45 am »
Yes there is error upon data acquisition, however the intelligent sensing approach uses the process of oversampling to acquire way more data than is needed

So it uses oversampling and averaging to filter the input.  Whoop-de-doo!
That is still not "error free", it is just a technique to try improve the SNR.

I thought you said yesterday that using averaging produces "guesses".   :-DD

Quote
and instantly perform all of the data error processing (i.e. conversion, quantization, jitter, noise, calibration etc.) within 4 ns to distill to the precise, error free data point so that the 24bits is a true 24 bits for each parameter on each channel, all perfectly synchronized together.

Sorry, but parroting the same marketing nonsense over and over without any substance behind it doesn't make it true.   :blah:

I tried to engage, but it is clear you just can't help yourself.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #128 on: June 12, 2019, 11:46:50 am »
Chris, what I would really love to understand is why you keep posting here. You have nothing lose here, but you can't win with this audience either.

Are you using this forum as your practice ground, trying out various lines and approaches with a difficult crowd? (Hint: The aggressive and demeaning angle is not so effective...) Do you just want to let off some steam, which you can't do in front of potential customers or investors? Or does this feel like fun? (How?)

I'm truly puzzled.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #129 on: June 12, 2019, 12:44:52 pm »
Are you using this forum as your practice ground, trying out various lines and approaches with a difficult crowd?

Let me guess... He is using this forum because it keeps popping-up in internet search results. If skeptics are uncontested, then general public may draw unfortunate conclusions. He has to defend product by all means. This is nothing new here, example: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/bullshit-texzon-wireless-power/
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 01:01:21 pm by ogden »
 

Online newbrain

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #130 on: June 12, 2019, 02:59:45 pm »
I never said averages, you did.
Oversampling

But, maybe, this is more relevant.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 03:01:50 pm by newbrain »
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #131 on: June 12, 2019, 03:05:33 pm »
Are you using this forum as your practice ground, trying out various lines and approaches with a difficult crowd?

Let me guess... He is using this forum because it keeps popping-up in internet search results. If skeptics are uncontested, then general public may draw unfortunate conclusions. He has to defend product by all means. This is nothing new here, example: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/bullshit-texzon-wireless-power/

All posting here will do is make it worse. We are scambusters (aka "qualified personel" or real engineers). And Dave isn't the only Youtuber here should we choose to video debunk (which would get a ton of search hits). The only thing scams should do when they end up in this section is run and hide.

Warning! Warning! Bullshit level exceeding 80%! :bullshit: *klaxon*
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #132 on: June 12, 2019, 06:37:36 pm »
After reading through this entire thread of word salad from 3DFS, all that comes to mind is Bea Arthur as the Roman unemployment clerk in History of the World Pt I when she distilled Comicus' profession (Stand Up Philosopher) into a somewhat more 'raw' descriptive term...

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline StillTryingTopic starter

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #133 on: June 14, 2019, 03:54:36 pm »
"After reading through this entire thread of word salad"

I've read some of it again for the giggles, I'm hungry for some more salad. >:D
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #134 on: June 14, 2019, 04:04:40 pm »
Unfortunately, I do not like salad, so I vote for locking this thread and banning the troll.

Instead of helping others, users waste time and effort here.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #135 on: June 14, 2019, 04:21:05 pm »
Unfortunately, I do not like salad, so I vote for locking this thread and banning the troll.

No. Truth shall be told so people who are not knowledgeable enough get chances to make their own decisions about this "product".

« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 04:23:38 pm by ogden »
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #136 on: June 14, 2019, 04:56:10 pm »
People not knowledgeable enough will not likely make a decision based on this thread, just because it is full of this salad.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #137 on: June 14, 2019, 07:19:07 pm »
People not knowledgeable enough will not likely make a decision based on this thread, just because it is full of this salad.

Maybe. Whatever. Please do not end this fun by banning him, ok?
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #138 on: June 14, 2019, 08:06:16 pm »
"After reading through this entire thread of word salad"

I've read some of it again for the giggles, I'm hungry for some more salad. >:D

Salad? Nah, his posts are a technobabble smoothie. :blah: Even AvE is easier to comprehend.
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
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Offline racemaniac

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #139 on: June 17, 2019, 11:54:55 am »
Wow, based on the uptick in engineering speak, it appears you all feel like you are circling for the kill, except Might I remind you that we are acquiring error free data, so while yes it is only measuring current and voltage, the error free data and calculations allow SDE to receive 24 bit resolution on each of the parameters (i.e. reactive power, phase angle, harmonics, etc.).
Ooh, finally one i can respond on XD. Sorry, but having studied numerical mathematics that handles subjects like this, it's not because your input data has a certain accuracy, that your result will have the same accuracy. How errors propagate through calculations is very interesting, you should read up on it :).
 

Offline StillTryingTopic starter

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #140 on: June 20, 2019, 01:56:19 pm »
After telling every EE on the planet that they don't understand electricity, 3DFS try plugging their real time battery chemistry modeling instead, and that doesn't go well either. :palm:
twitter.com/rshandross/status/1141669369531052033
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #141 on: June 20, 2019, 02:18:44 pm »
After telling every EE on the planet that they don't understand electricity, 3DFS try plugging their real time battery chemistry modeling instead, and that doesn't go well either. :palm:
twitter.com/rshandross/status/1141669369531052033

 :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD

Wow!  They know so much that is hidden.  They can't explain it, though, because...  ...secrets.

 ::) ::)

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline StillTryingTopic starter

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #142 on: June 22, 2019, 04:16:48 pm »
This is probably just a twitter text thing rather than a bonkers claim, but I found it amusing.

Someone asks:
"I'm not a power guy, but think a 100 mile high voltage power transmission line has milliseconds of propagation delay."

Seems a simple enough question, but 3DFS answer:

"Altitude is irrelevant."
 :-DD
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 
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Offline StillTryingTopic starter

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #143 on: July 01, 2019, 04:31:43 pm »
3DFS's entry to the May NATO EMP protection competition, if anyone's really bored. All the usual nonsense is there!
1st mention is in Reply #12.

http://aee-seva.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Gaffney-3DFS-NATO-Innovation-Hub-Challenge-Expanded-Abstract.pdf
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 04:33:33 pm by StillTrying »
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #144 on: July 01, 2019, 08:51:41 pm »
That's gonna be hilarious! Their shit's gonna get blown to bits if they do any heavy surge testing! :-DD :-BROKE
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline StillTryingTopic starter

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #145 on: July 01, 2019, 09:37:17 pm »
That's gonna be hilarious! Their shit's gonna get blown to bits if they do any heavy surge testing! :-DD :-BROKE

The competition is over. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/3dfss-vectorq-digital-electricity-technology/msg2463483/#msg2463483

They didn't win which is lucky, because the winner has to demonstrate it 'working', so it didn't get blown to bits.
How did they manage to make the final 7, perhaps the NATO judges just had a strange sense of humour. :horse:


While 3DFS have for years been claiming that every uA in the grid must be digitally measured, modeled and software controlled:

Senate passes cybersecurity bill to decrease grid digitization, move toward manual control
The Securing Energy Infrastructure Act (SEIA) establishes a two-year pilot program to identify new classes of security vulnerabilities and to research and test solutions, including "analog and nondigital control systems."
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/senate-passes-cybersecurity-bill-to-decrease-grid-digitization-move-toward/557959/
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 02:29:00 pm by StillTrying »
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline StillTryingTopic starter

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #146 on: August 09, 2019, 12:55:35 am »
These lot seem to have been quiet since the last flurry in this thread, I don't think they've mentioned the VQ2 since!

What would happen if you actually tried to buy a VQ2.
https://twitter.com/connor_daren/status/1153834825481981952

They're now moving into rocket science and suggesting non-combustible rocket fuel.
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1156757447836651525
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1157649334994919425
#Bonkers
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 12:57:55 am by StillTrying »
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #147 on: August 14, 2019, 11:00:38 pm »
They're now moving into rocket science and suggesting non-combustible rocket fuel.

Hmm, does that mean they suggest software-defined fuel instead? :-DD
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #148 on: August 14, 2019, 11:04:45 pm »
...aaaaaand he's back to add ......nothing whatsoever.   :popcorn:

To reiterate the question tweeted by Darren Connor in Australia that appears to have gone unanswered, what countries DO you currently sell in?   :-//

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline Marco

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #149 on: August 14, 2019, 11:38:15 pm »
Sorry for being late to the party, but what's so controversial about all this except the buzzword marketing?

Storing 0.6 KJ for active PFC seems to fit in the box fine. Crowbarring a surge into a water cooled resistor so your MOVs only have to absorb a small amount of a surge doesn't really seem out of the realm of possibility either. Water can absorb a lot more energy than a MOV without breaking.
 


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