Poll

3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?

Very useful power efficiency control products.
2 (3%)
Software Defined Electricity is the future!
1 (1.5%)
Nothing new, all been done before.
4 (6.1%)
Not sure / don't know.
5 (7.6%)
Probably mostly just snake oil / scam.
54 (81.8%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?  (Read 20398 times)

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Online madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2019, 02:16:02 pm »
The VectorQ is provides complete surge protection. The fans do not turn on unless a surge comes through.

Its current correcting wires are too thin and inductive for it to do much in the way of surge protection, never mind complete surge protection.

For a proper surge protection the blue box would need to be inline, not detached. Don't 3DFS know such basic stuff?


Quote
Quote
Yes it is. The CTs are measuring the power flow which is inherently bidirectional, The correction absolutely goes both ways.

The current corrections and the power direction corrections only apply to the supply side. It's impossible to change the current, or the two way power direction of a load with bad PF on the loads side.

By using only current transformers the blue box can't measure any DC component which would be bad for the grid.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #76 on: June 08, 2019, 06:42:29 pm »
Quote
For a proper surge protection the blue box would need to be inline, not detached. Don't 3DFS know such basic stuff?

SDE relies on the real time computing and intelligent sensing to be able to clean the power and absorb the surges in parallel. This is the advantage of working with data rather than guessing at surge protection. Again, you are applying your standards, which are not applicable here.

Chris, your statements do not make any sense.

The problem with the "detached surge protection" is the inductance and resistance of the long cables. No matter what you do in that magical blue box, it will not be able to protect the wiring from fast high-voltage surges, because most of the surge energy does not even get to your blue box. All your "digital", "software defined", "intelligent sensing" is just smoke and mirrors.

I do not understand why you keep posting here. You are not gaining a shred of credibility here -- every single one of your posts is torn apart by various people, and for very good reasons. It cannot be fun to do this, at least not for you... And if you have the commercial interests of 3DFS in mind, the best you could try and do is to let this thread peter out and hope not too many people find it.
 

Online madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #77 on: June 08, 2019, 06:46:03 pm »
Quote
For a proper surge protection the blue box would need to be inline, not detached. Don't 3DFS know such basic stuff?

By "proper" do you mean TVSS that degrade with every strike and does not even let you know how much protection there is?  :-DD If that is proper, then keep doing what you are doing. Ignorance is bliss.

Exactly! ;) You forgot the wire between the detached blue box and the distribution panel. If you want to suppress surges you need to do it inline with mains for optimal results. As StillTrying already has explained, the wire has inductance for example. The next thing you got wrong are TVSs. MOVs degrade with each surge. TVSs don't degrade as long as you don't exceed their limits.

Quote
Quote
By using only current transformers the blue box can't measure any DC component which would be bad for the grid.

This is also not true. We use proprietary flex coil transformers, and have absolutely perfect visibility into the power network. There is nothing that is missed by this method of sensing. In fact, laboratories purchase our Calibri series, which delivers only the measurement without the correction because of the accuracy of data acquisition.

Doesn't matter! As long as it's a transformer you can only measure AC, not DC. Also very basic stuff.

Anyway, I have to admit that you convinced me that the blue box is nothing I would buy or recommend to others. If that was your goal, you've succeeded. :palm:
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #78 on: June 08, 2019, 06:58:47 pm »

Quote
By using only current transformers the blue box can't measure any DC component which would be bad for the grid.
[[My emphasis]]

This is also not true. We use proprietary flex coil transformers, and have absolutely perfect visibility into the power network. There is nothing that is missed by this method of sensing. In fact, laboratories purchase our Calibri series, which delivers only the measurement without the correction because of the accuracy of data acquisition.

The above is why people here think you have zero credibility. You go around telling people that they don't know what they are talking about and then make a statement like that. Somebody studying electricity in a (high) school physics class (not even college level) ought to know that DC does not make it across a transformer, ought to know that transformers are strictly AC transducers. This isn't a difference of opinion, a difference of perspective or anything like that, you are just plain flat-out wrong - there is no other way of framing it. If you are incapable of getting the very basics right, fundamental laws of physics, why should anybody trust you to discuss more advanced topics?
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Online madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #79 on: June 08, 2019, 07:09:08 pm »
I do not understand why you keep posting here. You are not gaining a shred of credibility here -- every single one of your posts is torn apart by various people, and for very good reasons. It cannot be fun to do this, at least not for you... And if you have the commercial interests of 3DFS in mind, the best you could try and do is to let this thread peter out and hope not too many people find it.

Neither do I. Maybe it's his education in psychology. All I get from this is that 3DFS is the Batteroo for mains. I can imagine that a Fourier based approach might possibly work, but that would involve a lot of processing and a large box without tiny wires.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2019, 07:21:02 pm »
Maybe we are underestimating Chris...
https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherdoerfler/

(I have criticized others for linking to the LinkedIn profile of pseudonymus users before, but since Chris has been open about his 3DFS affiliation I trust this is OK. Chris, if you prefer this link to be removed, please let me know and I will edit the post.)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 07:23:04 pm by ebastler »
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #81 on: June 09, 2019, 01:41:36 am »
No your invention would violate well established laws of electrical physics that have been studied for about 220 FUCKING YEARS! :palm: If you can suddenly bend the laws of physics to your will then where's our lightsabers, cold fusion, open air holograms, ftl travel, forcefields, exc. ::)

And to be clear, we aren't the only ones onto your BS. :blah: :bullshit:

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/an-operating-system-for-electricity.149474/
https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=187471&page=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/energy/comments/8or7gl/3dfss_software_for_electricity_could_double_the/
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Offline sibeen

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #82 on: June 09, 2019, 03:17:04 am »
It's a nice thread, and cdoerfler is either bonkers or just a sales person; in many cases it may be hard to tell the difference. My only issue with the thread is that other bits of mis-information is also being included by other users. The two most egregious one's I've spotted are “Backfeeding breakers is also iffy, only certain types allow it” and “For a proper surge protection the blue box would need to be inline, not detached.”

For the first I’ve never seen a breaker that isn’t bi-directional. Some of the more ‘intelligent’ trip units can have reverse power flow detection and such which may trip a breaker if the current flows opposite to that which is expected, but that’s about it.

For the second the vast, vast, vast majority of surge suppression is carried out by a device, whether it be a MOV, SASD, TVSS etc, that is placed in parallel with the incoming line. The feed to the protection device needs to be as short as possible but the device is certainly not put in-line.


My 2 cents worth :)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 03:21:26 am by sibeen »
 

Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #83 on: June 09, 2019, 06:18:41 am »
... the vast, vast, vast majority of surge suppression is carried out by a device, whether it be a MOV, SASD, TVSS etc, that is placed in parallel with the incoming line. The feed to the protection device needs to be as short as possible but the device is certainly not put in-line.

I am pretty sure this is what everybody meant when talking about "in-line" surge protection: A protection device that sits in the same box as your main fuses or distribution board, to allow for short, fat connections. That's in contrast to the 3DFS connections to the blue box, which seem to be on the long and flimsy side (photo below). Yes, of course the blue box can short out some surge voltage, but only the part that gets to it...

To put it another way, "in-line" does not mean "in series" (at least to this non-native speaker.  ;))


 

Offline sibeen

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #84 on: June 09, 2019, 06:54:24 am »

To put it another way, "in-line" does not mean "in series" (at least to this non-native speaker.  ;))



I can live with that :)

I also had a thought about the circuit breaker, some RCBO/RCD/ELCB type breakers may also be directional in their current sensing and may also trip if installed 'backwards', but for your general purpose ACB/MCCB/MCB, for those in IEC world, couldn't give a rats about which way they face.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #85 on: June 09, 2019, 10:34:17 am »
Quote
By using only current transformers the blue box can't measure any DC component which would be bad for the grid.

This is also not true. We use proprietary flex coil transformers, and have absolutely perfect visibility into the power network. There is nothing that is missed by this method of sensing. In fact, laboratories purchase our Calibri series, which delivers only the measurement without the correction because of the accuracy of data acquisition.

Calibri series is not even a current transformer, and you can't make a coil transformer work down to DC by using faster data acquisition.
I've seen much better logic from an internet bot. :)
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Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #86 on: June 09, 2019, 02:17:12 pm »
I'm out of here. As long as all we get from cdoerfler is the insistence that it works, combined with both the unwillingness and inability to explain how it supposedly works, this thread is not going anywhere.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 02:53:22 pm by ebastler »
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #87 on: June 09, 2019, 02:26:24 pm »
No your invention would violate well established laws of electrical physics that have been studied for about 220 FUCKING YEARS! :palm: If you can suddenly bend the laws of physics to your will then where's our lightsabers, cold fusion, open air holograms, ftl travel, forcefields, exc. ::)

And to be clear, we aren't the only ones onto your BS. :blah: :bullshit:

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/an-operating-system-for-electricity.149474/
https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=187471&page=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/energy/comments/8or7gl/3dfss_software_for_electricity_could_double_the/

Do you hear yourself? What is more likely, that you don't understand or we are violating known laws of physics?

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke

We understand basic physics perfectly well. There IS nothing to understand about your BS, you CAN'T violate the laws of physics. That's why the other forums are calling you out.

What is more likely, that you suddently invent tech that can violate 200 year old laws of phsics and you use it for a boring little PF corrector instead of fancy sci-fi stuff, or that you are simply a very persistant charlitan that has gone nuts believing their own shit? You are not even a real engineer, you are a goon. :blah: :bullshit:

"I reject your reality and substitute my own" -Adam Savage

For example you CAN'T detect DC with a transformer. Physics dictates that you CANNOT create a current with a static magnetic field. No amount of electronic rubbish can change that. "flex coil transformers" :-DD :bullshit: Do you also have a flux capacitor? Surprised you didn't use a hall effect sensor as an excuse, at least that can detect static fields.
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #88 on: June 09, 2019, 02:32:18 pm »
I'm out of here. As long as all we get from cdoerfler is the insistence that it works, combined with both the unwillingness and inability to explain how it works, this thread is not going anywhere.

He's not an engineer, he's a marketing puppet. He's been driven mad into wholely believing anything the phony dev team dishes out to him to spew on the internet. He fails miserably every time when he encounters real engineers. (just look at the top vote)

The only people he's managed to fool are the dumb media who also believed in things like waterseer, ubeam, batterizer, fontus, exc. And guess what happened to those... ::)
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Online madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #89 on: June 09, 2019, 03:56:53 pm »
If you think that we are just a bunch of internet trolls and morons unable to grasp 3DFS' magic technology why do you waste your time with this discussion?
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2019, 06:25:49 pm »
I am humbled to be in the presence of such physics gurus that can assess a technological innovation over the internet from thousands of miles away without ever witnessing it first hand.  :palm:

Thanks. :P
But the laws of physics that your claims violate were made billions of years ago, haven't changed, and are the same everywhere, so we don't have to be where you are to know how they work. :palm:

Quote
To think that we have had nearly a decade of progress, demonstrations and evaluation in front of people who actually test and assess the technology and none of them have come to such as rudimentary conclusion yet the internet physics keyboard warrior gurus are certain.

You claim to have a team of engineers, research scientists and power experts working for years, demonstrations and evaluations, and then claim that the current corrections at the panel "clean the power" and cause asynchronous motors to operate synchronously loaded or not. Even after everyone says those motors don't work like that, and that the PF at the load/motor doesn't change anyway!
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1070789837026783232

Has any happy customer witnessed that miracle fake claim first hand.
I thought not!

I'm afraid many of your claims of what the VectorQ2 can do are worse than bonkers, I might have to upgrade bonkers to fake. 8)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 06:33:06 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #91 on: June 10, 2019, 10:36:22 am »
Frankly, it is educational. Only in a group of knee jerk denialists would "experts" in physics openly defend that wasting 68% of energy that is produced is simply the course of normal business because it has been done this way for over a century.

I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit when in objective reality, this is all waste from not controlling and balancing power in real time.

In your assessment, what fraction of that 68% loss is addressable by 3DFS load balancing?

Hmm, seems I am not out of here yet...
Must practice self control... ::)
 
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Online madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #92 on: June 10, 2019, 11:58:23 am »
If you think that we are just a bunch of internet trolls and morons unable to grasp 3DFS' magic technology why do you waste your time with this discussion?

Frankly, it is educational. Only in a group of knee jerk denialists would "experts" in physics openly defend that wasting 68% of energy that is produced is simply the course of normal business because it has been done this way for over a century.

Have a look at the efficiency of combustion engines and how it has evolved over time. We're still driving around with combustion engines, and those magic fuel savers from the TV ads don't work.

I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit when in objective reality, this is all waste from not controlling and balancing power in real time.

Are transmission losses BS?
 

Offline newbrain

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #93 on: June 10, 2019, 12:44:19 pm »
I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit
So, you disproved Carnot's theorem?
That's an interesting development... :palm:
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Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #94 on: June 10, 2019, 12:54:24 pm »
I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit
So, you disproved Carnot's theorem?
That's an interesting development... :palm:

Come on, let’s stay reasonable. He said that other effects (losses) are dominant, not that Carnot‘s theorem is invalid.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #95 on: June 10, 2019, 01:01:57 pm »
Quote
Have a look at the efficiency of combustion engines and how it has evolved over time. We're still driving around with combustion engines, and those magic fuel savers from the TV ads don't work.

Are transmission losses BS?

This is precisely where this group completely abdicates logic in lieu of what some guy taught you years ago.

Losses related to reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing exist at generation. In fact, they are the absolute worst at the point of generation. Where do you think the heat that is induced (physics, remember) is emitted? Why do you think the generator, turbine and exhaust is so hot?

Okay, so now move down the line to capacitor banks or inverters... same thing, clearly reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing issues here...

Transformers? Same

Transmission wires? Same, although there is no modern way that can measure the actual losses, so they are calculated from before and after.  :palm:

Energy storage? Same

And consumption, where these same problems exist.

What would a non-indoctrinated engineer assume about a system that is losing energy like this from top to bottom?

But instead of objectively looking at this system, you choose to blindly accept these losses. If nothing else, it is an indictment on the way power engineers have been educated the world round.

These losses are not just energy waste, but the source of nearly all of the grid instability that exists as well. Further, this lack of control and balance coupled with it being controlled by unintelligent switches and PLC programming makes the grid so vulnerable to cyberattack that it really is a matter of time before that gets revealed.

Blind acceptance of 68% waste in a system is frankly pathetic.

We don't blindy except them, they were established physics since the big bang. :palm: Transmission loss has nothing to do with "harmionic losses" throughout the entire system (total bullshit). Everything that isn't a superconductor in an AC system has an impedance at the normal operating frequency even with a perfect sine wave and PF. That's basic high school physics that your superiors must have beaten out of you for you to believe this rubbish.

EDIT: In fact, hydroelectric power is nearly 100% effiecient ::), the only losses due to said impedance. This 68% only applies to steam plants where the losses are mainly in the steam system. :palm:
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 01:09:12 pm by Cyberdragon »
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Offline newbrain

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #96 on: June 10, 2019, 01:05:45 pm »
Come on, let’s stay reasonable. He said that other effects (losses) are dominant, not that Carnot‘s theorem is invalid.
Then why bring it up? What's his point?

There must be a language barrier. I honestly understand 10% of what he writes. I can grammatically parse the sentences, but they just don't mean anything to me most of the times...this is another example:
Quote
Cleaning up the power at the panel like we do delivers the exact amount into the panel that is demanded resulting in the unintelligent loads consuming precisely what they demanded
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Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #97 on: June 10, 2019, 01:27:59 pm »
There must be a language barrier. I honestly understand 10% of what he writes.

Yes, there clearly is a barrier -- not so much in language, but in thought process, scientific background, and intent of the communication. I think Chris is to some extent muddying the waters intentionally, since he is delivering his sales pitch. And to some extent he just does not understand the underlying fundamentals.

As a result, I find there is no willingness or ability on Chris' part to differentiate:
  • What are unavoidable losses (be they due to resistive losses, stray magnetic fields in a generator, Carnot cycle in a thermodynamic machine etc.), vs. which losses can be reduced by ensuring good load balancing and sinusoidal currents/voltages? Heck, a lot of the losses in the Lawrence Livermore chart have nothing to do with electrical systems at all...
  • What relative improvements does the 3DFS "digital" approach bring over traditional approaches for load balancing etc.? It's not like the 3DFS gadgets cannot have any benefit at all -- but why, and to what extent, would they be better than classical approaches?
Anyway, I don't have high hopes for qualified, differentiated answers...
 

Online madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #98 on: June 10, 2019, 02:24:33 pm »
Losses related to reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing exist at generation. In fact, they are the absolute worst at the point of generation. Where do you think the heat that is induced (physics, remember) is emitted? Why do you think the generator, turbine and exhaust is so hot?

I see, you are talking about losses caused by phase-shifting and so on. But those losses are only a part of the total sum of losses. There are things like wire resistance and transformer losses (even for a perfect sine wave and a PF of 1). Your argumentation based on the total sum of losses is misleading.
 
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Online madires

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