Poll

3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?

Very useful power efficiency control products.
2 (3.1%)
Software Defined Electricity is the future!
1 (1.5%)
Nothing new, all been done before.
4 (6.2%)
Not sure / don't know.
5 (7.7%)
Probably mostly just snake oil / scam.
53 (81.5%)

Total Members Voted: 59

Author Topic: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?  (Read 10523 times)

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Offline StillTrying

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3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« on: June 12, 2018, 01:53:24 pm »
Software Defined Electricity, It's the future!
Yeah right!

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/200/


I can't see the option now, but I definitely allowed the changing of your vote / your mind!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 02:45:44 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2018, 02:21:06 pm »
I won't vote because I still don't know what 3DFS's VectorQ is actually doing and how. Anyway, the thread linked is a marketing disaster. We've asked several times for details but only got buzzwords and insults. And the company's web page isn't helpful either. When I consider just the marketing I'd have to assume it's a scam.
 

Offline CJay

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2018, 03:38:54 pm »
My opinion, if they have to resort to being beligerant and roll out the buzzwords to a bunch of engineers, is 'scam'
M0UAW
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2018, 08:18:21 pm »
3DFS Technology maintains power factor at unity, harmonics below 2% and automatically balances phases in power networks at all times no matter the load profile or energy consumption patterns.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2018, 03:31:01 pm »
3DFS Technology maintains power factor at unity, harmonics below 2% and automatically balances phases in power networks at all times no matter the load profile or energy consumption patterns.

Prove it!

And I don't mean another of your buzzword loaded paragraphs filled with insults at your interlocutors. I mean, either some solid, cogent, complete technical explanation of how your systems achieve your claims (i.e no more of this 'We do it by delivering microamps per microsecond in real time' tosh but a properly argued white paper or similar, you must have one somewhere) OR details of one or more reference customers who are prepared to publicly stand up and say it works.

If you cannot, or will not, offer one of those two then the only reasonable conclusion is that you're either deluded, or deliberately pedalling rubbish and we can safely ignore you, your extraordinary claims, and tell anyone who asks that they ought to avoid your products like the plague on the grounds that you can't or won't properly explain or defend them.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Offline MrMobodies

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2019, 02:34:51 am »
Maybe I am misunderstanding it but isn't that what regulators and other control circuitry is for?

To me it sounds related to what already happens with data transmission over mains like with powerline adaptors.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2019, 04:45:42 pm »
It is a matter of speed, efficiency and impact on the network. The existing methods separate the data acquisition/conversion from the computing which is separate from the control. They rely on switches and relays for control which are not working anywhere near the speed of power flow, and they inevitably cause disruption in the power flow. Just look at the amount of power consumed to "correct" power. To correct 60kW of power requires about 60kW of power consumption. The goal is to deliver power as efficiently as possible, so the method can not be a 1:1 energy expense.


3DFS Technology is a completely integrated system with full feedback throughout every internal circuit. It uses high end computing and power electronics to convey power at the speed it is demanded perfectly synchronized. This is a radically different approach. It performs precision correction at speeds commensurate with power flow. The impact on the network is positive by preventing electrical energy loss no matter the input power or load consumption pattern, and this is all done at 98% efficiency, so 60kW is corrected with 70-120W of power.

It is a new form of power electronics.

-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2019, 06:21:28 pm »
@cdoerfler: Chris, two suggestions for you:

(a) I think it is really time that you disclose your affiliation with 3DFS in your forum identity. Easy to do in the forum software, via either the "personal text" or the "signature" in your foum profile.

(b) Don't you have a technical person on the 3DFS team who could represent your company on this forum, and give some real technical explanations? Forgive me, but a bachelor in psychology does not cut it around here, especially as it shows in your posts.
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2019, 07:59:13 pm »
Every time this starts, there are 5 people that jump on me at once and it all goes to shit. Please ask specific questions. I will give specific answers. No need to litigate any previous posts. What technical details are requested?
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2019, 08:28:08 pm »
Thanks for adding the signature, Chris -- that's a step in the right direction.
 

Offline lokiiie

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2019, 07:34:27 am »
How does the vectorq work and how it harmonize the system?
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2019, 12:43:28 pm »
Lightning protection done in software, what could possibly go wrong. :horse:

https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1127560806793609216
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline CJay

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2019, 02:06:47 pm »
Lightning protection done in software, what could possibly go wrong. :horse:

https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1127560806793609216

An IoT app, it queries the local weather service then uses bollockchain to leverage synergistic AI technologies and achieves a lightning prediction rate in the high teens percentile, sometimes even before it gets blown to pieces by a direct strike. 
M0UAW
 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2019, 11:04:19 am »
An IoT app, it queries the local weather service then uses bollockchain

Don't be giving them any more ideas. :)

Yep, no lightning strike will be able to sneak passed that. :palm:
They'll probably win an award.

img from www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/25/
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 11:37:41 am by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2019, 12:51:45 pm »
How does the vectorq work and how it harmonize the system?

The VectorQ Series is installed in parallel at the panel level. It oversamples the source and load side to provide the analytics that informs the power electronics which is correcting for reactive power, harmonics and phase imbalance in real time as the power flows, performing corrections every microsecond.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2019, 12:52:28 pm »
Lightning protection done in software, what could possibly go wrong. :horse:

https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1127560806793609216

This is a power electronics system. It is hardware and software.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2019, 12:53:23 pm »
An IoT app, it queries the local weather service then uses bollockchain

Don't be giving them any more ideas. :)

Yep, no lightning strike will be able to sneak passed that. :palm:
They'll probably win an award.

img from www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/25/



Yes, that is correct, and we probably will.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2019, 02:34:44 pm »
How does the vectorq work and how it harmonize the system?

The VectorQ Series is installed in parallel at the panel level. It oversamples the source and load side to provide the analytics that informs the power electronics which is correcting for reactive power, harmonics and phase imbalance in real time as the power flows, performing corrections every microsecond.

More buzzwankery with no substance. :blah: :horse:

3DFS Technology maintains power factor at unity, harmonics below 2% and automatically balances phases in power networks at all times no matter the load profile or energy consumption patterns.

Prove it!

And I don't mean another of your buzzword loaded paragraphs filled with insults at your interlocutors. I mean, either some solid, cogent, complete technical explanation of how your systems achieve your claims (i.e no more of this 'We do it by delivering microamps per microsecond in real time' tosh but a properly argued white paper or similar, you must have one somewhere) OR details of one or more reference customers who are prepared to publicly stand up and say it works.

If you cannot, or will not, offer one of those two then the only reasonable conclusion is that you're either deluded, or deliberately pedalling rubbish and we can safely ignore you, your extraordinary claims, and tell anyone who asks that they ought to avoid your products like the plague on the grounds that you can't or won't properly explain or defend them.

And how the hell is that box gonna protect against surges? To do that it either has to clamp or have a disconnect in series. That thing is entirely wired in parrallel. So even if it clamps it would short the supply using any normal switching elements (IE ones that can be computer controlled). Also, reaction and switching times play a factor in surge arresting. MOVs, diodes, lightning arrestors exc all work extremely fast. If you throw a computer and switching elements in it, you are adding delayed reaction to the point it would already be too late and damage would occur. "oh look, a sur-" *BANG*  :-BROKE (not to mention the computer would have to protect it's own supply, but with what, traditional elements? ::) ) The only award that would earn is the one for the person that can identify it's remains after a surge.
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 
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Offline CJay

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2019, 06:07:50 pm »
In all seriousness, I assume the wires entering the box on the upper right are the utility supply and the wires leaving upper left are to the premises.

So that leaves half a dozen or so wires from the magic box, where's the active element, is it in the box you built or is it in the main panel being controlled by your box?
M0UAW
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2019, 07:50:22 pm »
In all seriousness, I assume the wires entering the box on the upper right are the utility supply and the wires leaving upper left are to the premises.

So that leaves half a dozen or so wires from the magic box, where's the active element, is it in the box you built or is it in the main panel being controlled by your box?

Everything (computer and power electronics) are within the box. It is wired in parallel, CT on each phase, neutral and ground, plus 3 voltage connections via fuse. There is a transistor based injection/consumption system and the supplemental corrections are made as the power flows. The injection site is through the fuse.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline Gregg

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2019, 08:07:03 pm »
In all seriousness, I assume the wires entering the box on the upper right are the utility supply and the wires leaving upper left are to the premises.

So that leaves half a dozen or so wires from the magic box, where's the active element, is it in the box you built or is it in the main panel being controlled by your box?
For those not familiar with US wiring  :-//, I have annotated the picture
I couldn't help myself questioning some of what is or isn't there. 
Another thing I wonder about is Cdofler stating that the device is connected via fuses when the picture clearly shows a 3 pole breaker; wouldn't a power engineer know the difference?
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2019, 08:23:27 pm »
In all seriousness, I assume the wires entering the box on the upper right are the utility supply and the wires leaving upper left are to the premises.

So that leaves half a dozen or so wires from the magic box, where's the active element, is it in the box you built or is it in the main panel being controlled by your box?
For those not familiar with US wiring  :-//, I have annotated the picture
I couldn't help myself questioning some of what is or isn't there. 
Another thing I wonder about is Cdofler stating that the device is connected via fuses when the picture clearly shows a 3 pole breaker; wouldn't a power engineer know the difference?


The device uses an average of 70W of power to correct 60kW. The Flash Energy Storage Systems is oil cooled, water cooled and air cooled. The air cooling is not needed really unless there is a surge, at which point they activate to blow the heat off from the surge.

There is no need to dig on whether I am a power engineer, this forum has had many a sleuth determine that I am not. Yes, the 3 pole breaker is the connection, pardon my language.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2019, 05:11:43 am »
Quote
There is no need to dig on whether I am a power engineer, this forum has had many a sleuth determine that I am not. Yes, the 3 pole breaker is the connection, pardon my language.

Right there you have just admitted you don't know jack yet you've been trying to defend this rubbish to real engineers. :palm: :bullshit:

It has every type of cooling huh? First of all, water cooling requires a radiator which usually requires fans to cool it unless it's significantly large (which wouldn't leave much room). Oil cooled? So it's filled with mineral oil? ??? Also, even if the fans only come on for a a surge arrest that seems like an an aweful lot of cooling for something that consumes 70W ( less than the human body at about 100W when resting).

Also we've grilled to death already how it's impossible to use tiny amounts of power to correct large amounts, that's basic thermodynamics.

Backfeeding breakers is also iffy, only certain types allow it. Drawing power from them and backfeeding them is even more iffy. Due to the above, the backfed power, or clamping a surge might trip the breaker. You have succeeded in making a self defeating device that will shut off it's own connection when it tries to surge protect. :palm: ::)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 05:17:51 am by Cyberdragon »
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2019, 12:38:51 pm »
Quote
There is no need to dig on whether I am a power engineer, this forum has had many a sleuth determine that I am not. Yes, the 3 pole breaker is the connection, pardon my language.

Right there you have just admitted you don't know jack yet you've been trying to defend this rubbish to real engineers. :palm: :bullshit:

It has every type of cooling huh? First of all, water cooling requires a radiator which usually requires fans to cool it unless it's significantly large (which wouldn't leave much room). Oil cooled? So it's filled with mineral oil? ??? Also, even if the fans only come on for a a surge arrest that seems like an an aweful lot of cooling for something that consumes 70W ( less than the human body at about 100W when resting).

Also we've grilled to death already how it's impossible to use tiny amounts of power to correct large amounts, that's basic thermodynamics.

Backfeeding breakers is also iffy, only certain types allow it. Drawing power from them and backfeeding them is even more iffy. Due to the above, the backfed power, or clamping a surge might trip the breaker. You have succeeded in making a self defeating device that will shut off it's own connection when it tries to surge protect. :palm: ::)

I am explaining how it works. These are facts. You know nothing about this tech. Literally nothing, not to mention you are wrong with everything you say.

How about you just pipe down and let those interested in learning more ask questions and maybe, just maybe you will learn something.



-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2019, 01:22:07 pm »
No, they are not FACTS at this point, you are spouting buzzwords and wankery, not explaining anything in actual QUANTIFIABLE muasurements in terms of things like patent papers, charts/graphs, actual verifiable figures. All you are doing is making CLAIMS, not backing them up, which is what we've BEEN ASKING. You have shown 0 PROOF that your device does what you say it does, and you say you are not an engineer on their team so how does that qualify you to explain anything? I could do the same thing and claim I have a cold fusion generator that harnesses zero point energy and the power of lunar phases. ::)

How about you open that blue box and take high res photos of the inside...because if you look at the poll on top, most of us think it's full of crap. Prove us wrong and you'll earn your rep back.



*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2019, 01:36:20 pm »
I am explaining how it works.

No, you really aren't. You are stating what it allegedly does.

What this audience is looking for are real explanations of what the components are, what the circuit looks like (at least a block diagram), and what the algorithms do (again, a high-level technical summary). There must be a way of conveying that with technical credibility without giving away any trade secrets. Would you have a peer-reviewed scientific paper or a key patent which explains the principles and which you could share?
 
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Online newbrain

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2019, 01:54:38 pm »
You know nothing about this tech. Literally nothing, not to mention you are wrong with everything you say.
Possibly.
You are not helping in any way, though. :-//
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2019, 05:29:26 pm »
I am explaining how it works.

No, you really aren't. You are stating what it allegedly does.

What this audience is looking for are real explanations of what the components are, what the circuit looks like (at least a block diagram), and what the algorithms do (again, a high-level technical summary). There must be a way of conveying that with technical credibility without giving away any trade secrets. Would you have a peer-reviewed scientific paper or a key patent which explains the principles and which you could share?


Yes I really am stating facts.

The granted patent https://3dfs.com/news/3dfs-announces-stake-patent-issued/11/2015

It really is quite simple. The losses that exist in power flow are prevented 99%, as evidenced in the video in this thread.

The algorithm works like this, "The power is spoiled, I'll correct it."

We have an entire section at techtalk.3dfs.com for this stuff.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2019, 06:39:01 pm »
The granted patent https://3dfs.com/news/3dfs-announces-stake-patent-issued/11/2015

US 9,178,35, "Multipurpose, universal converter...".  The patent essentially seems to describe a combination of UPS, various frequency converters, and power factor correction, where the PFC is done via a DSP. Maybe tossing all these things into one device is new. I cannot recognize (understand?) the inventive benefits of the combination. And specifically I cannot see any hint why one should use a DSP rather than conventional power factor correction.

Quote
The algorithm works like this, "The power is spoiled, I'll correct it."
We have an entire section at techtalk.3dfs.com for this stuff.

Well, yes. But the "techtalk" discusses the technology on this level:

Quote
Digital Measurement of Electricity 3DFS Technology leverages Task Oriented Optimal Computing™ to sample and process electricity data in extremely high fidelity. The technology issampling/deriving 26 parameters using current and voltage samples in 24 bit resolution at MHz sampling rates on each phase, neutral and ground, through a precision, software controlled oversampling methodology.This proprietary data acquisition process, acquires and distills to a perfect, near error free digital mimic of the analog signal nanoseconds after it is sensed opening up true Real-Time visibility of electricity flow.

 (Taken from your "Whitepaper", https://3dfs.com/download/financial-benefits-of-protecting-power-networks-with-software-defined-electricity?wpdmdl=11973)

:-\
 
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Offline BravoV

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2019, 08:07:57 pm »
Its all "wordy" ... none in numbers nor quantitative, in a pure technical talk, yeah, right.


Online newbrain

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2019, 09:02:15 pm »
Well, yes. But the "techtalk" discusses the technology on this level:

Quote
Digital Measurement of Electricity 3DFS Technology leverages Task Oriented Optimal Computing™ to sample and process electricity data in extremely high fidelity. The technology issampling/deriving 26 parameters using current and voltage samples in 24 bit resolution at MHz sampling rates on each phase, neutral and ground, through a precision, software controlled oversampling methodology.This proprietary data acquisition process, acquires and distills to a perfect, near error free digital mimic of the analog signal nanoseconds after it is sensed opening up true Real-Time visibility of electricity flow.

 (Taken from your "Whitepaper", https://3dfs.com/download/financial-benefits-of-protecting-power-networks-with-software-defined-electricity?wpdmdl=11973)

:-\
Ah, the famous 26 parameters.
It's such a pity that "We do not maintain a list of the 26 parameters that are being measured/derived."
So we cannot know what they are...though the amount of data is quite impressive:
6-7ns sampling time, 24 bits by 26 parameter makes for digesting/processing more than 10 Gbyte/s, that's quite some DSP power!
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Offline dmills

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2019, 09:26:07 pm »
Well there we have the breakthru, a 24 bit ENOB ADC at MHz rates  :-DD
 
Seriously, that part I would buy (and so would many, many, others), forget mucking around with the power waveform, that ADC technology right there is **money**.

3DFS need to get some actual engineers in this discussion, letting the marketing intern play on the internet unsupervised is comedy for us, but someone really needs to warn them.

Thing is I have bought kit that does not a million miles from what I suspect that box is actually capable of (Eat at least some of the current harmonics and tart up the power factor in realtime), and may buy more, but there is one company now on my 'no way in hell' list. 

To quote my old boss "NUMBERS DAMMIT!", nobody here is afraid of getting down and technical, and you have a patent so there are no trade secret issues.

Where are the real datasheets as opposed to 4 colour glossies?

 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2019, 10:34:53 pm »
Well there we have the breakthru, a 24 bit ENOB ADC at MHz rates  :-DD
 
Seriously, that part I would buy (and so would many, many, others), forget mucking around with the power waveform, that ADC technology right there is **money**.

3DFS need to get some actual engineers in this discussion, letting the marketing intern play on the internet unsupervised is comedy for us, but someone really needs to warn them.

Thing is I have bought kit that does not a million miles from what I suspect that box is actually capable of (Eat at least some of the current harmonics and tart up the power factor in realtime), and may buy more, but there is one company now on my 'no way in hell' list. 

To quote my old boss "NUMBERS DAMMIT!", nobody here is afraid of getting down and technical, and you have a patent so there are no trade secret issues.

Where are the real datasheets as opposed to 4 colour glossies?


You have nailed it. The ADC is the key here. The way that you are all defending loses the information through the ADC and then turns up the sampling after that. The result is the sinewaves look more sinusoidal than they actually are.

Look at the sinewaves in our video, they are true.

That 24bit resolution at MHz frequencies is true, from data acquisition through. That is the key to all of our technology. We actually work with the real data. Everybody else works with averages and integrals.

-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2019, 10:49:33 pm »
Well, yes. But the "techtalk" discusses the technology on this level:

Quote
Digital Measurement of Electricity 3DFS Technology leverages Task Oriented Optimal Computing™ to sample and process electricity data in extremely high fidelity. The technology issampling/deriving 26 parameters using current and voltage samples in 24 bit resolution at MHz sampling rates on each phase, neutral and ground, through a precision, software controlled oversampling methodology.This proprietary data acquisition process, acquires and distills to a perfect, near error free digital mimic of the analog signal nanoseconds after it is sensed opening up true Real-Time visibility of electricity flow.

 (Taken from your "Whitepaper", https://3dfs.com/download/financial-benefits-of-protecting-power-networks-with-software-defined-electricity?wpdmdl=11973)

:-\
Ah, the famous 26 parameters.
It's such a pity that "We do not maintain a list of the 26 parameters that are being measured/derived."
So we cannot know what they are...though the amount of data is quite impressive:
6-7ns sampling time, 24 bits by 26 parameter makes for digesting/processing more than 10 Gbyte/s, that's quite some DSP power!


Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.

This is what allows us to sample 26 parameters, C & V plus, phase angle, reactive power, current harmonics, voltage harmonics, reactive harmonics, impedance, all in real time, perfectly synchronized at all times. This is called real time electricity modeling and is what allows the technology to make the precision corrections, because all of the information about the flowing power is always known at all times.

This oversampling on source and load side then leaves the power electronics to make the corrections constantly.

Real time electricity modeling provides orders of magnitude more information on flowing power than typical RMS measurement. This is the part that I think you are all having trouble understanding. We are literally working with a layer of data that is abstract to you, but a reality for SDE.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2019, 11:03:57 pm »
Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.
Get into the multimeter market. Such a device, if it lives up to its claims, would completely revolutionize the way measurements are made.
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Offline helius

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2019, 11:06:22 pm »
...we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well...
Such a device would completely revolutionize science in general.
FTFY
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2019, 11:15:12 pm »
Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.
Get into the multimeter market. Such a device, if it lives up to its claims, would completely revolutionize the way measurements are made.

It does and we are developing dozens of new products at 3DFS.com and SAMControllers.com
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2019, 11:18:20 pm »
...we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well...
Such a device would completely revolutionize science in general.
FTFY

You are correct. We are presently working on new sensors which will provide this error free data for everybody else.

This method allows machines, systems and processes to model and control science in real time. This is why it is so important.

SDE is only one application. Literally every control system and sensor in the world is ripe for disruption. 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2019, 11:19:26 pm »
You have nailed it. The ADC is the key here. The way that you are all defending loses the information through the ADC and then turns up the sampling after that. The result is the sinewaves look more sinusoidal than they actually are.
Look at the sinewaves in our video, they are true.

Bonkers.

Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.

This oversampling on source and load side then leaves the power electronics to make the corrections constantly.

Real time electricity modeling provides orders of magnitude more information on flowing power than typical RMS measurement. This is the part that I think you are all having trouble understanding. We are literally working with a layer of data that is abstract to you, but a reality for SDE.

Bonkers.

Edit. added the bold bit.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 11:21:58 pm by StillTrying »
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2019, 11:29:12 pm »
You have nailed it. The ADC is the key here. The way that you are all defending loses the information through the ADC and then turns up the sampling after that. The result is the sinewaves look more sinusoidal than they actually are.
Look at the sinewaves in our video, they are true.

Bonkers.

Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.

This oversampling on source and load side then leaves the power electronics to make the corrections constantly.

Real time electricity modeling provides orders of magnitude more information on flowing power than typical RMS measurement. This is the part that I think you are all having trouble understanding. We are literally working with a layer of data that is abstract to you, but a reality for SDE.

Bonkers.

Edit. added the bold bit.


Yeah, that is the initial reaction. It is difficult to learn this at this point in your career, particularly from somebody like me, but you are not the only one who has been enlightened.

It is like Arthur Clarke said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."  8)
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline dmills

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2019, 11:43:47 pm »
I think there was also something about "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"?

I would take a claim of 24 bits ENOB @ 1MHz as being extraordinary, so where is the extraordinary evidence?

Frankly nobody here will take you or your company seriously until you actually come up with REAL NUMBERS, we are engineers, numbers are what we do.....

Thermodynamics (Not to say the whole position/momentum uncertainty thing) says that there can be no such thing as a perfect measurement in less then infinite time, so for a 1MHz 24 ENOB ADC, what are your numbers? Linearity, settling time, offset, scale range, bandwidth, power consumption you know the basic stuff?

 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2019, 11:51:00 pm »
I would take a claim of 24 bits ENOB @ 1MHz as being extraordinary,

Don't forget the nanoseconds, so the sampling speed is 100MHz or more!


I think it's quite clever the way it doesn't need a good earth for protection against lightning, instead it dissipates the lightning spike and blows it out of the fans.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/msg1590616/#msg1590616

It's a pity there's no one here with enough knowledge of electricy to explain why that's not going to work. :)
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Offline BravoV

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2019, 04:54:48 am »
I think it's quite clever the way it doesn't need a good earth for protection against lightning, instead it dissipates the lightning spike and blows it out of the fans.

Agree, the lightning strike turns instantly into arcing plasma, and then the whole fully charged plasma gas will be blown out from the system by the constantly running high power fans, so no more hazard, get it ?  :-DD  :scared:

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2019, 05:42:56 am »
I think it's quite clever the way it doesn't need a good earth for protection against lightning, instead it dissipates the lightning spike and blows it out of the fans.

Agree, the lightning strike turns instantly into arcing plasma, and then the whole fully charged plasma gas will be blown out from the system by the constantly running high power fans, so no more hazard, get it ?  :-DD  :scared:

Holy shit, they've invented a device that shoots ball lightning out it's fans! Now I can finally make a homemade plasma gun! :-DD

In fact, that's what I called him out on earlier and he was like "no, you're wrong". If you shunt a surge with a device connected through breakers, it'll just trip the breakers. :palm:
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2019, 08:33:41 am »
Many years ago, when I was a highschool kid, there was a fellow in my home city who thought he had squared the circle, and proven that Pi = 3.2. He published a series of full-page ads in the local newspaper, which gave excerpts of his proof, but also devoted a lot of page space to extolling the virtues and benefits of this discovery, and to praising the Lord.

Being a smartass kid, I figured I would reach out to the guy and show him the errors of his ways. Phoned him, arranged an afternoon visit, and was warmly welcomed by a retired man who was pleased that someone took an interest. (Side note -- yes, this was a time when parents let their 15-year-old kid go out on his own to visit a stranger...)

I left in the evening with a copy of his self-published book with the full "proofs", and with a lot of frustration. The guy's way of reasoning was so different from what I had learned in school: He kept starting from unproven claims and arguing round in circles until he reached the conclusion that the claim was true, etc. -- I could not get a foot in the door. The book was the same.

I concluded that arguing with this type of evangelist is not a fun way to test your (math) skills, but that it is pointless. I have typically given wide berth to these types of "discoveries" from thereon. I still have the book, and have occasionally looked at it to remind me of that learning...

Now wait -- why was I telling that story here?  ::)
 

Offline dmills

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2019, 11:00:12 am »
I think it is simpler then that, I think we are either the research subjects in a psychology experiment (Wonder what the IRB had to say), or we are just straight up being trolled!

Regards, Dan.
 

Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2019, 11:34:06 am »
Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.

For starters, please read up on quantization errors and noise. Then look into measurement errors. There's no error free data acquisition!  With such claims 3DFS is becoming a laughing stock.
 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2019, 09:13:51 pm »
EMP Detection: Software-Defined Electricity operates on the principle of oversampling inputs to extract maximum information on the power flow to deliver the most possible time to react to any electrical event. EMP travels in waves. In oceans preceding a tsunami, shore water recedes significantly back before the inrush. A similar phenomenon is true with EMP in power networks. Time is the most precious resource related to EMP damage mitigation. The sooner it is detected, the more time there is to react.
3dfs.com/news/3dfs-selected-as-finalist-for-nato-innovation-challenge/05/2019

Edit. Is there any evidence that the bold bit even exits for EMP, I've not been able to find any, yet.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 10:03:45 am by StillTrying »
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2019, 10:09:02 am »
EMP Detection: Software-Defined Electricity operates on the principle of oversampling inputs to extract maximum information on the power flow to deliver the most possible time to react to any electrical event. EMP travels in waves. In oceans preceding a tsunami, shore water recedes significantly back before the inrush. A similar phenomenon is true with EMP in power networks. Time is the most precious resource related to EMP damage mitigation. The sooner it is detected, the more time there is to react.
3dfs.com/news/3dfs-selected-as-finalist-for-nato-innovation-challenge/05/2019

Edit. Is there any evidence that the bold bit even exits for EMP, I've not been able to find any, yet.

Pretty neat, huh? It is always nice to teach somebody something that they did not know. You will carry that information forever.  :-+
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #50 on: May 20, 2019, 10:11:32 am »
Why isn't this troll already banned?
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #51 on: May 20, 2019, 10:45:52 am »
Why isn't this troll already banned?

But then he wouldn't be able to tell us who the manufacturer of the 24 bit 100MHz error free ADCs is. :)
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #52 on: May 20, 2019, 10:46:50 am »
Pretty neat, huh? It is always nice to teach somebody something that they did not know. You will carry that information forever.  :-+

I've now read many pages on lightning and nuke EMP, not one mentions or shows the tsunami effect. I think you're making it up.
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #53 on: May 20, 2019, 11:00:59 am »
Why isn't this troll already banned?

But then he wouldn't be able to tell us who the manufacturer of the 24 bit 100MHz error free ADCs is. :)

I get that you are repeating my words sarcastically, so let me clarify the error free data acquisition statement.

We have developed a layer in between the data acquisition and the model input. It is within this layer that the tech oversamples and by the next input (6 ns) has drilled down to the error free data.

So in other words, the input is error free.
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #54 on: May 20, 2019, 11:35:46 am »
We have developed a layer in between the data acquisition and the model input.

I always suspected it was just the reading of the digital values out of the ADC that was error free, everyone can do that.

Quote
It is within this layer that the tech oversamples and by the next input (6 ns) has drilled down to the error free data.

It oversamples digital values? What does that even mean.

Quote
So in other words, the input is error free.

Nope, "the input" to what?  As the analogue readings are full of random and measurement errors, no data onwards is error free.

It probably uses 24 bit math, and you're totally confused. :)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 11:52:14 am by StillTrying »
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #55 on: May 20, 2019, 11:51:27 am »
We have developed a layer in between the data acquisition and the model input.

I always suspected it was just the reading of the digital values out of the ADC that was error free, everyone can do that.

Quote
It is within this layer that the tech oversamples and by the next input (6 ns) has drilled down to the error free data.

It oversamples digital values? What does that even mean.

Quote
So in other words, the input is error free.

Nope, "the input" to what?

It probably uses 24 bit math, and you're totally confused.


This is not done in the same way that you are familiar with. It oversamples analog data, and within that 6ns converts to digital and performs all the data error corrections so that the input data (the data fed into the computing model) is error free.

It is literally an abstract layer of data processing that is new. Intelligent sensing.   
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #56 on: May 20, 2019, 12:40:18 pm »
This is not done in the same way that you are familiar with. It oversamples analog data, and within that 6ns converts to digital and performs all the data error corrections so that the input data (the data fed into the computing model) is error free.

Thanks for trying, I've tried, and no one will make sense of that!

How many bits wide is the "input data"? I suppose if it was cut down to only 6 bits wide you could claim that any error must be less than one LSB so it's error free. :)

Changing 60Hz power is so ruff and ready that quite a bit a error won't matter at all, so all the claims of 24 bit error free data is total nonsense.

Quote
It is literally an abstract layer of data processing that is new. Intelligent sensing.

LOL
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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #57 on: May 20, 2019, 01:39:28 pm »
This is not done in the same way that you are familiar with. It oversamples analog data, and within that 6ns converts to digital and performs all the data error corrections so that the input data (the data fed into the computing model) is error free.

It is literally an abstract layer of data processing that is new. Intelligent sensing.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but I will ask one last time: Do you have a technical publication, scientific paper, or patent application which describes this? You position this as a rather central idea for 3DFS's business, with applications well beyond electricity. You can't bank on keeping it as a trade secret, right? So why not explain it in technical terms, preferably to a patent examiner?
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2019, 02:55:39 pm »
This is not done in the same way that you are familiar with. It oversamples analog data, and within that 6ns converts to digital and performs all the data error corrections so that the input data (the data fed into the computing model) is error free.

It is literally an abstract layer of data processing that is new. Intelligent sensing.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but I will ask one last time: Do you have a technical publication, scientific paper, or patent application which describes this? You position this as a rather central idea for 3DFS's business, with applications well beyond electricity. You can't bank on keeping it as a trade secret, right? So why not explain it in technical terms, preferably to a patent examiner?

On the contrary, trade secrets are the only protection today, not patents. We will build and maintain our market advantage by never disclosing our technological advantage, only the results.

The fact that we demonstrate results to clients is our market advantage (although this does slow the initial market adoption). Most executives do not care at all how the technology accomplishes what it does. They are only interested in results. With this strategy, we simply need a foot in the door to exhibit the instant asset performance improvement and efficiency gains.

This shifts our strategy to working on case studies and benefits realization models of the results instead of technical publications on how the technology works.

The same is true for SAM Controllers. Although with the smaller price points and much smaller price tag, it is expanding faster than 3DFS.

I genuinely would like to bridge this communication gap, without as you say revealing the secret sauce, and have found success with our "prove it" model.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline Gregg

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #59 on: May 20, 2019, 06:01:43 pm »
Why isn't this troll already banned?
Because we are all having too much fun with this thread and even learning new marketing spin terms and outright fantasy.  :-DD   This stuff is science fiction without the science.  :popcorn:
It is true that engineers love a good argument.  :box:
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #60 on: May 20, 2019, 06:31:32 pm »
trade secrets are the only protection today, not patents. We will build and maintain our market advantage by never disclosing our technological advantage, only the results.

Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. So you intentionally never explained how your technology works. And there I was, wondering whether we had a communication problem, maybe caused by different educational background.  ::)

Could you please share the peer-reviewed papers and independent third-party studies of the results then?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 06:55:33 pm by ebastler »
 

Offline Gregg

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2019, 06:40:40 pm »
So the little blue box senses analog anomalies at the breaker panel and over samples these glitches to make sure it hasn’t erred.   :-// All of this over sampling takes a finite amount of time.

Then it converts this huge amount of oversampling into 24 bit digital signals and sends it to the processor.  This certainly isn’t instantaneous.  |O

Then the processor accesses the super-secret algorithm and decides the best way to deal with the myriad of spikes, sags, harmonics etc. present; this has to be done for each unique anomaly in order to provide the promised results.  Happens in no time, no doubt.  :-DD

Then the processor signals the appropriate switching of some more secret circuitry that can magically capture the spikes and use the energy to fill in the sags.  WOW  And even better this all happens in real time as fast as the anomalies initiate and stop them in their tracks. :wtf:

Maybe it utilizes the infamous flux capacitor to magically go back in time and correct the problems before they happen; but how does it get to 88 miles an hour?
Maybe the marketing wizards at 3DFS believe the grid is make believe and all digital, like The Matrix.   And the blue box can magically stop the digital glitches in mid cycle.  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:  :palm:
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #62 on: May 21, 2019, 09:15:45 am »
All of this over sampling takes a finite amount of time.

They claim oversampling makes the response faster. :palm:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/3dfss-vectorq-digital-electricity-technology/msg2422518/#msg2422518
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #63 on: May 21, 2019, 11:22:36 am »
trade secrets are the only protection today, not patents. We will build and maintain our market advantage by never disclosing our technological advantage, only the results.

Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. So you intentionally never explained how your technology works. And there I was, wondering whether we had a communication problem, maybe caused by different educational background.  ::)

Could you please share the peer-reviewed papers and independent third-party studies of the results then?

The beautiful thing about SDE is how easy and non-invasive it is to install. We go to clients and show them directly what the improvement is.

Typically, since existing power quality analyzers are pretty much useless from a data verification point of view, the easiest way for us to show the difference is to install a VectorQ and run a test where it continuously measures, but turns the correction on and off every minute for 20 minutes. Then we run a report like this https://3dfs.com/download/3dfs-redacted08292016 and compare it against their data.

Presently, we have not covered an entire data center yet. We start with a row, let them experience it and expand from there. Once we are covering a full data center, we will release a case study showing the before and after.
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Offline krish2487

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #64 on: May 21, 2019, 12:10:32 pm »


So.. You are asking a  forum of EEs to trust on good faith that you are improving power quality. Yet
1.It is a revolutionary technology which does something.
2.A forum full of EEs cannot comprehend the technology.
3. You cant demonstrate it using traditional T&M equipment since they are "pretty much useless".
4. The perceived improvement can only be measured, observed and reported by your technology.
5. You cannot give away your IP / trade secrets in order to maintain your market advantage.


I am sure anything is possible if you change the rules of engagement... If you cannot, using todays widely accepted norms and standards, to demonstrate the use and benifit of your system I doubt if you can get anyone to even understand what you are wanting to communicate.


Sure, your stuff does work... but before you revolutionise physics and electronics and anything else inbetween... explain in todays terms and standards..


In the words of Richard Feynman "If you cannot explain it simply, you dont understand it".
Either that or you are stringing everyone along...


 >:D 


Quote from: cdoerfler on Today at 09:22:36 pm


>Quote from: ebastler on Today at 04:31:32 am


>Quote from: cdoerfler on Today at 12:55:39 am
trade secrets are the only protection today, not patents. We will build and maintain our market advantage by never disclosing our technological advantage, only the results.



Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. So you intentionally never explained how your technology works. And there I was, wondering whether we had a communication problem, maybe caused by different educational background.  ::)

Could you please share the peer-reviewed papers and independent third-party studies of the results then?



The beautiful thing about SDE is how easy and non-invasive it is to install. We go to clients and show them directly what the improvement is.

Typically, since existing power quality analyzers are pretty much useless from a data verification point of view, the easiest way for us to show the difference is to install a VectorQ and run a test where it continuously measures, but turns the correction on and off every minute for 20 minutes. Then we run a report like this https://3dfs.com/download/3dfs-redacted08292016 and compare it against their data.

Presently, we have not covered an entire data center yet. We start with a row, let them experience it and expand from there. Once we are covering a full data center, we will release a case study showing the before and after.


If god made us in his image,
and we are this stupid
then....
 

Offline krish2487

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #65 on: May 21, 2019, 12:12:55 pm »
Which leads me to my next question...


If you are sure that traditional power quality analyzers are useless.. how are you able to demonstrate the effectiveness of your technology?
What is the T&M equipment your reports are based on???
What are they using for data acquisition??
If god made us in his image,
and we are this stupid
then....
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #66 on: May 21, 2019, 12:50:05 pm »
So.. You are asking a  forum of EEs to trust on good faith that you are improving power quality. Yet
1.It is a revolutionary technology which does something.
2.A forum full of EEs cannot comprehend the technology.
3. You cant demonstrate it using traditional T&M equipment since they are "pretty much useless".
4. The perceived improvement can only be measured, observed and reported by your technology.
5. You cannot give away your IP / trade secrets in order to maintain your market advantage.

Nice summary of the key points, krish.
Feels strangely familiar to the sales pitch made by the typical "audiophoolery" vendors...  ::)
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #67 on: May 21, 2019, 01:54:44 pm »
Which leads me to my next question...


If you are sure that traditional power quality analyzers are useless.. how are you able to demonstrate the effectiveness of your technology?
What is the T&M equipment your reports are based on???
What are they using for data acquisition??

I guess I should dial that back a bit. It is not that they are useless, unless of course you would like precision in your readings in which case they are. We do have people come in all the time and bring their PQAs to test and see.

It is funny to us because here we provide more data and analytics that they could ever receive from their equipment, but still they are not convinced until they see it with their own eyes on their own instruments.



-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #68 on: May 21, 2019, 01:56:58 pm »
So.. You are asking a  forum of EEs to trust on good faith that you are improving power quality. Yet
1.It is a revolutionary technology which does something.
2.A forum full of EEs cannot comprehend the technology.
3. You cant demonstrate it using traditional T&M equipment since they are "pretty much useless".
4. The perceived improvement can only be measured, observed and reported by your technology.
5. You cannot give away your IP / trade secrets in order to maintain your market advantage.

Nice summary of the key points, krish.
Feels strangely familiar to the sales pitch made by the typical "audiophoolery" vendors...  ::)

1. Yes
2. It has nothing to do with comprehension. You all have more than enough intellect to understand.
3. The effect can be seen, the data cannot be verified because our technology is the only one that works at that level. The end result is seen on any equipment.
4. See 3
5. Yes.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline krish2487

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #69 on: May 21, 2019, 02:21:19 pm »


Regarding Point 3 - I am sorry, It doesnt work that way.
"The effect can be seen but the data cannot be verified. "


You need to be able to quantify and analyse data for your claims to hold true. As I said, todays standards for measurement and analysis.. use them to quantify and measure.. then you can prove your claims..


Pretty much any active power quality filter / manager works the same way. Power quality improvement happens only in a finite amount of ways.
1. Improving the power factor by reducing the phase difference between current and voltage
2. Reduce current and voltage harmonics in the source.
3. An uncommon method is also to balance three phase currents, but that is really only relevant in > 100s or KW power range. (granted this doesnt inherently improve power as much as reduce imbalanced load upstream to generation)


to name a few...


And as others have mentioned COTS power filters already accomplish this.. What you have done is to do speed up the rate of the correction being applied..
Its utility is a seperate point for discussion..


Behind all the smoke and mirrors, this is what your device does. The rest of the english adds little value to this fact.




Quote from: cdoerfler on Yesterday at 11:56:58 pm


>Quote from: ebastler on Yesterday at 10:50:05 pm


>Quote from: krish2487 on Yesterday at 10:10:32 pm
So.. You are asking a  forum of EEs to trust on good faith that you are improving power quality. Yet
1.It is a revolutionary technology which does something.
2.A forum full of EEs cannot comprehend the technology.
3. You cant demonstrate it using traditional T&M equipment since they are "pretty much useless".
4. The perceived improvement can only be measured, observed and reported by your technology.
5. You cannot give away your IP / trade secrets in order to maintain your market advantage.



Nice summary of the key points, krish.
Feels strangely familiar to the sales pitch made by the typical "audiophoolery" vendors...  ::)



1. Yes
2. It has nothing to do with comprehension. You all have more than enough intellect to understand.
3. The effect can be seen, the data cannot be verified because our technology is the only one that works at that level. The end result is seen on any equipment.
4. See 3
5. Yes.


If god made us in his image,
and we are this stupid
then....
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #70 on: May 21, 2019, 02:55:31 pm »


Regarding Point 3 - I am sorry, It doesnt work that way.
"The effect can be seen but the data cannot be verified. "


You need to be able to quantify and analyse data for your claims to hold true. As I said, todays standards for measurement and analysis.. use them to quantify and measure.. then you can prove your claims..


Pretty much any active power quality filter / manager works the same way. Power quality improvement happens only in a finite amount of ways.
1. Improving the power factor by reducing the phase difference between current and voltage
2. Reduce current and voltage harmonics in the source.
3. An uncommon method is also to balance three phase currents, but that is really only relevant in > 100s or KW power range. (granted this doesnt inherently improve power as much as reduce imbalanced load upstream to generation)


to name a few...


And as others have mentioned COTS power filters already accomplish this.. What you have done is to do speed up the rate of the correction being applied..
Its utility is a seperate point for discussion..


Behind all the smoke and mirrors, this is what your device does. The rest of the english adds little value to this fact.




Quote from: cdoerfler on Yesterday at 11:56:58 pm


>Quote from: ebastler on Yesterday at 10:50:05 pm


>Quote from: krish2487 on Yesterday at 10:10:32 pm
So.. You are asking a  forum of EEs to trust on good faith that you are improving power quality. Yet
1.It is a revolutionary technology which does something.
2.A forum full of EEs cannot comprehend the technology.
3. You cant demonstrate it using traditional T&M equipment since they are "pretty much useless".
4. The perceived improvement can only be measured, observed and reported by your technology.
5. You cannot give away your IP / trade secrets in order to maintain your market advantage.



Nice summary of the key points, krish.
Feels strangely familiar to the sales pitch made by the typical "audiophoolery" vendors...  ::)



1. Yes
2. It has nothing to do with comprehension. You all have more than enough intellect to understand.
3. The effect can be seen, the data cannot be verified because our technology is the only one that works at that level. The end result is seen on any equipment.
4. See 3
5. Yes.



Let me rephrase. It cannot be verified with other data acquisition devices because they do not have the accuracy and precision to be able to do this. As the image above shows, they can verify the results using their own tools, but the accuracy of their data is still not there.

The traditional RMS is averages and integrals, so when SDE corrects, the averages and integrals are of the corrected power, so will clearly show up.

If they want the granular data, they can only use our tech.

Regarding power quality improvement using the traditional methods, its the bare minimum. When examined with our method of measurement, it reveals that modern pfc and harmonic filtration, etc. does not save any energy, it just displaces where it is lost. It is like squeezing a balloon.


-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline krish2487

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2019, 04:39:01 pm »


As I said, you are wanting to redefine science in order to prove your alleged claims... The T&M instruments are not accurate / precise enough...
We can prove our claims using our technology... Our method of measurement reveals that no energy is saved....


Ok, I ll bite.. First step to accepting your paradigm shift is to repeat the tests.. So how do you do what you do... doesnt have to be extremely specific in details.. just the broad sequence of steps to repeat your process... A -> B ->C....


And how is it any different from any COTS solution...


Let me rephrase.. what are you doing different, in order to get your claimed improvements?


Quote from: cdoerfler on Today at 12:55:31 am


>Quote from: krish2487 on Today at 12:21:19 am


Regarding Point 3 - I am sorry, It doesnt work that way.
"The effect can be seen but the data cannot be verified. "


You need to be able to quantify and analyse data for your claims to hold true. As I said, todays standards for measurement and analysis.. use them to quantify and measure.. then you can prove your claims..


Pretty much any active power quality filter / manager works the same way. Power quality improvement happens only in a finite amount of ways.
1. Improving the power factor by reducing the phase difference between current and voltage
2. Reduce current and voltage harmonics in the source.
3. An uncommon method is also to balance three phase currents, but that is really only relevant in > 100s or KW power range. (granted this doesnt inherently improve power as much as reduce imbalanced load upstream to generation)


to name a few...


And as others have mentioned COTS power filters already accomplish this.. What you have done is to do speed up the rate of the correction being applied..
Its utility is a seperate point for discussion..


Behind all the smoke and mirrors, this is what your device does. The rest of the english adds little value to this fact.




>Quote from: cdoerfler on Yesterday at 11:56:58 pm

>
If god made us in his image,
and we are this stupid
then....
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2019, 04:46:30 pm »
It is funny to us because here we provide more data and analytics that they could ever receive from their equipment, but still they are not convinced until they see it with their own eyes on their own instruments.

I wonder why they don't believe your claims. It's not as if you fill the interwebs with impossible claims, or anything like that.

I wonder why the voltage and current are so out of phase.

CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2019, 06:00:08 pm »


Regarding Point 3 - I am sorry, It doesnt work that way.
"The effect can be seen but the data cannot be verified. "


You need to be able to quantify and analyse data for your claims to hold true. As I said, todays standards for measurement and analysis.. use them to quantify and measure.. then you can prove your claims..


Pretty much any active power quality filter / manager works the same way. Power quality improvement happens only in a finite amount of ways.
1. Improving the power factor by reducing the phase difference between current and voltage
2. Reduce current and voltage harmonics in the source.
3. An uncommon method is also to balance three phase currents, but that is really only relevant in > 100s or KW power range. (granted this doesnt inherently improve power as much as reduce imbalanced load upstream to generation)


to name a few...


And as others have mentioned COTS power filters already accomplish this.. What you have done is to do speed up the rate of the correction being applied..
Its utility is a seperate point for discussion..


Behind all the smoke and mirrors, this is what your device does. The rest of the english adds little value to this fact.




Quote from: cdoerfler on Yesterday at 11:56:58 pm


>Quote from: ebastler on Yesterday at 10:50:05 pm


>Quote from: krish2487 on Yesterday at 10:10:32 pm
So.. You are asking a  forum of EEs to trust on good faith that you are improving power quality. Yet
1.It is a revolutionary technology which does something.
2.A forum full of EEs cannot comprehend the technology.
3. You cant demonstrate it using traditional T&M equipment since they are "pretty much useless".
4. The perceived improvement can only be measured, observed and reported by your technology.
5. You cannot give away your IP / trade secrets in order to maintain your market advantage.



Nice summary of the key points, krish.
Feels strangely familiar to the sales pitch made by the typical "audiophoolery" vendors...  ::)



1. Yes
2. It has nothing to do with comprehension. You all have more than enough intellect to understand.
3. The effect can be seen, the data cannot be verified because our technology is the only one that works at that level. The end result is seen on any equipment.
4. See 3
5. Yes.



I would say that our approach to correction is inclusive and predictive.

Inclusive in that SDE corrects for reactive power, harmonics and phase imbalance together in one action, through current injection/extraction which occurs every microsecond.

Predictive in that SDE is assessing that current injection/extraction every 6ns, verifying the need ~167 times before the injection is made. This is a key difference because the device does not store the energy until just before it is injected. The other difference is that the excess current extracted is used to inject, never drawing from the main, which is what allows it to operate at 70W.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline krish2487

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #74 on: May 21, 2019, 06:08:04 pm »


Evasive, inconclusive and vague at best...
I asked for the precise sequence of steps to replicate your success....


All you are giving me is the marketing material and investors pitch talk..


I am asking for this..
1. Setup a test rig of this capacity and this load..
2. Now measure V/I at these and these points...
3. Now this measurements has to happen at 20 or 30 Mhz.. meaning you need a FPGA and a fast ADC with lots of memory...
4. Since we are aiming for 24 bits ENOB the signal path has to be clean and be guarded against any noise... meaning we need these and these safeguards..
5. Now with the measured data... perform this and this transform...
6. We end up with this results...
7. This is where our AHA moment comes into play...
8. We use this data is this manner (which is different from the mainstream COTS correction)
9. Now we use this calculated parameters to correct the supply in precisely this fashion...
10. Now we are able to observe these and these results before and after the correction...


You see where I am going with this... If I ( or anyone cant replicate this sequence) then whatever you say might be fluff....
That is what I and many others meant by repeatability...


Quote from: cdoerfler on Today at 04:00:08 am


>Quote from: krish2487 on Today at 12:21:19 am


Regarding Point 3 - I am sorry, It doesnt work that way.
"The effect can be seen but the data cannot be verified. "


You need to be able to quantify and analyse data for your claims to hold true. As I said, todays standards for measurement and analysis.. use them to quantify and measure.. then you can prove your claims..


Pretty much any active power quality filter / manager works the same way. Power quality improvement happens only in a finite amount of ways.
1. Improving the power factor by reducing the phase difference between current and voltage
2. Reduce current and voltage harmonics in the source.
3. An uncommon method is also to balance three phase currents, but that is really only relevant in > 100s or KW power range. (granted this doesnt inherently improve power as much as reduce imbalanced load upstream to generation)


to name a few...


And as others have mentioned COTS power filters already accomplish this.. What you have done is to do speed up the rate of the correction being applied..
Its utility is a seperate point for discussion..


Behind all the smoke and mirrors, this is what your device does. The rest of the english adds little value to this fact.




>Quote from: cdoerfler on Yesterday at 11:56:58 pm

>
If god made us in his image,
and we are this stupid
then....
 

Offline pigrew

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2019, 06:28:52 pm »
It looks like the current sensors and voltage sensors are mixed up between lines? And all of the current clamps are put on backwards?

L1: U(Gray), I(-Red)
L2: U(Red), I(-Blue)
L3: U(Blue), I(-Gray)

Because of this, the total powers are wrong (for the uncorrected case on the left). There must be a significant amount of energy storage, probably nearly 1 power-line-cycle of the max power? Maybe around 10 mF of capacitance at 120VDC. However, it has to be able to take up the current very quickly during the peaks. The control loop can't know the future, so perhaps it is correcting the current draw to be balanced based on the power which had been drawn the previous cycle? If all goes wrong (runs out of energy, demand wasn't what was expected, etc), then it can just give up at a zero-crossing and reset its state machine.

This could go very wrong when equipment draws energy every other power line cycle. Don't some triac-based heaters do that? The other strategy would be to just have a couple power line cycles of energy, so that it could average it out over a few cycles, but there should always be some pathological case where the correction fails.

EDIT/POSTSCRIPT: While I believe that this overall technology is reasonable (excluding some bad descriptions of it) and good for some niche applications, it's likely much better to just balance your loads and migrate to power equipment which has less harmonics (replace VFDs, etc, with newer models). However, I've never worked in an industrial setting, so I don't know how the economics balance out.

It is funny to us because here we provide more data and analytics that they could ever receive from their equipment, but still they are not convinced until they see it with their own eyes on their own instruments.
I wonder why the voltage and current are so out of phase.


« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 06:33:47 pm by pigrew »
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #76 on: May 22, 2019, 12:36:26 pm »
It looks like the current sensors and voltage sensors are mixed up between lines? And all of the current clamps are put on backwards?

Yes that will be it, as usual 3DFS haven't a clue.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #77 on: May 22, 2019, 01:41:49 pm »
It could be simply the phase difference between voltage and current. What those graphs also show is that the load optimization increases the phase shifting. This is to be expected since the blue box needs time for measurements, calculation and power correction. And the capacitance and inductance of mains wiring and loads don't make the job easier. So any power correction will have a delayed impact. This also means the box doesn't provide much benefit for data centers. To increase power efficiency and to reduce bills for power a HV DC power distribution (incl. HV DC PSUs for servers and network elements) would make more sense.
 

Offline dmills

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #78 on: May 22, 2019, 07:34:32 pm »
Err, the whole point of a box doing power factor correction is to REDUCE the phase angle between the voltage and the current!

This is just a measurement screwup with placing the current clamps.

The real value in these sort of fairly small AHF boxes (But I like mine with actual data and salted with less gibberish) is when you are doing something like changing the use of an existing building and find you have neutral overload issues for example because of that whole floor of cheap ass PCs your accounts department put in. 

Much cheaper to knock off 40A or so of triplen with an AHF box then it is to pull bigger wire 8 floors up thru trunking that is too small!

Band aid, maybe, but it gets your site signed off.

I had an issue in a theatre (LOADS of phase angle dimming that changes moment by moment), the choices were an AHC box (Quite a big one at that) or a 315kVA K rated delta-star transformer that we had no space for.....

The (Real) AHC tech has a valid use case, it is the frantic fluffing by the marketing guy that is cracking me up.

Regards, Dan.
 
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Offline SparkyFX

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #79 on: May 23, 2019, 10:02:05 pm »
Err, the whole point of a box doing power factor correction is to REDUCE the phase angle between the voltage and the current!
But only to the requirement of the utility company of course... that requires a proof and a reason. The thing is that the power that is installed and paid for today includes all costs needed to run the system - with all its inefficiencies and a good amount of safety margin.
They do not make up a problem and sell you the solution. Apparent power and real power are one thing, sinusoidal current is another. And then there is wear and tear, but i don´t get how the shape in which the heat or vibration is produced would make that much of a difference or if it is the main cause for failures in the first place. Maybe there is no point in mitigating effects that do not preempt the first failure that typically occurs.

Then there is this: Why should a customer try to solve a problem that the utility does not recognize as such if the goal is to protect the grid and transformer and acutally prolongs its life. Wouldn´t that be in the interest of the utility and therefore fixed there? Utilities have plenty of data, plenty of customers and can see which loads cause which failures.

Maybe in fringe cases with island grids that operate too close to physical limits this plays a role, but there the supplier and load are usually under the same control and could be solved on the side of the load anyway. But you are usually not in a good situation when intentionally operating too close to physical limits, it is called bad design.

Quote
find you have neutral overload issues for example because of that whole floor of cheap ass PCs your accounts department put in.
Which could be solved/mitigated in the first place by rearranging loads between phases. Cheapest way possible, just change clamps. But this technology is not about phase split, it is about a one-sided redefinition of what Power Quality Rating means.

Btw. there are some data protocols on the grid... like switching on street lights, nightly rate for electrical heaters. You do not want to compensate those.
Support your local planet.
 

Offline dmills

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #80 on: May 24, 2019, 06:14:16 am »
Moving loads between phases does not help if the neutral current is mostly third harmonic however, because third harmonic sums in the neutral rather then cancelling.

This is what had me on that theatre install, full load at 30% on the dimmers and the RMS neutral current wound up to nearly 200% of the phase current.

Agreed, that you only fix as much as is economical, but in this case AHF was MUCH more cost effective then burning the triplen as heat in a delta-star transformer, mostly because we did not have a good location for the transformer.

The other interesting application is in sites where you have significant voltage harmonics AND static power factor correction cap banks (Which REALLY don't like voltage harmonics because they push up the current in the cap bank by a lot). AHC setup to reduce the voltage harmonics only can allow a significantly smaller current rating on the passive cap bank. Usually an issue out on the end of a long feed line where the supply impedance is not as low as it could be.

Now both are slightly niche applications, and there are usually cheaper ways to skin this, but the AHF tools have a place. 

Agreed that the marketing drivel is unusually severe with this one.

Regards, Dan.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #81 on: May 27, 2019, 10:38:17 pm »
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 12:52:49 am by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #82 on: May 28, 2019, 03:18:40 pm »
3DFS think their load current balancing S/W has something to do with controlling the frequency of the grid. :-DD
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1133015758282342402


http://www.altenergystocks.com/archives/2019/05/digital-electrification-a-path-to-adding-capacity-by-reducing-waste-heat

It has everything to do with it. Controlling the frequency using rotating machines is the the only way when the power is not controlled and balanced in real time.

-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #83 on: May 29, 2019, 09:41:42 am »
However, the phase current imbalance has nothing in common with the frequency.  ;)
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #84 on: May 29, 2019, 12:23:06 pm »
3DFS think their load current balancing S/W has something to do with controlling the frequency of the grid. :-DD
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1133015758282342402

It has everything to do with it. Controlling the frequency using rotating machines is the the only way when the power is not controlled and balanced in real time.

To correct the unbalanced currents, 3DFS's magic software has to follow the phase and frequency of the grid - whatever it is, so the amount of control that 3DFS's magic software has on the frequency is less than zero. :D

Edit!  How would it even know if the 60Hz's phase should be moved slightly a head or behind what it currently is.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 04:25:19 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #85 on: May 29, 2019, 12:48:08 pm »
Controlling the frequency using rotating machines is the the only way when the power is not controlled and balanced in real time.
To correct the unbalanced currents, 3DFS's magic software has to follow the phase and frequency of the grid - whatever it is, so the amount of control that 3DFS's magic software has on the frequency is less than zero. :D

I don't think cdoerfler is claiming that 3DFS can actively control the frequency of the grid. Rather, he seems to state that 3DFS can avoid load fluctuations, to which the grid would otherwise need to respond by varying the frequency.

However, it is unclear to me whether that second claim is correct. Assuming that the 3DFS technology can only compensate for load imbalances between phases, how would that change the overall load the grid sees?
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #86 on: May 29, 2019, 01:07:56 pm »
Controlling the frequency using rotating machines is the the only way when the power is not controlled and balanced in real time.
To correct the unbalanced currents, 3DFS's magic software has to follow the phase and frequency of the grid - whatever it is, so the amount of control that 3DFS's magic software has on the frequency is less than zero. :D

I don't think cdoerfler is claiming that 3DFS can actively control the frequency of the grid. Rather, he seems to state that 3DFS can avoid load fluctuations, to which the grid would otherwise need to respond by varying the frequency.

However, it is unclear to me whether that second claim is correct. Assuming that the 3DFS technology can only compensate for load imbalances between phases, how would that change the overall load the grid sees?

Frequency control is irrelevant when precision phase control is possible, which is what SDE delivers. Frequency for SDE can be software defined.
 

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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #87 on: May 29, 2019, 01:27:37 pm »
Frequency control is irrelevant when precision phase control is possible, which is what SDE delivers. Frequency for SDE can be software defined.

You've lost me there (again), I'm afraid.
"Software defined" grid frequency ?? ???
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #88 on: May 29, 2019, 01:51:35 pm »
Frequency control is irrelevant when precision phase control is possible, which is what SDE delivers. Frequency for SDE can be software defined.

You've lost me there (again), I'm afraid.
"Software defined" grid frequency ?? ???

frequency response using batteries is 1. not real time and 2. limited by the energy within the battery.

FR using 3DFS tech is Real-Time, every microsecond, and unlimited because it is using the power from the grid to correct the power.

SDE has full phase control. Reactive power correction in 180 degrees. This is a much more important feature.

It cannot correct the entire grids frequency, but when fully distributed throughout the grid, frequency response will no longer be needed.
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Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #89 on: May 29, 2019, 02:06:28 pm »
The grid frequency is controlled by the (im-)balance of the power fed into the grid and the power consumed by loads.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #90 on: May 29, 2019, 03:26:50 pm »
Frequency control is irrelevant when precision phase control is possible, which is what SDE delivers. Frequency for SDE can be software defined.

You've lost me there (again), I'm afraid.
"Software defined" grid frequency ?? ???

frequency response using batteries is 1. not real time and 2. limited by the energy within the battery.
FR using 3DFS tech is Real-Time, every microsecond, and unlimited because it is using the power from the grid to correct the power.
SDE has full phase control. Reactive power correction in 180 degrees. This is a much more important feature.

Bonkers!

"It cannot correct the entire grids frequency,"

But it can correct just part of the grid's frequency?  :-//  Or different parts of the grid will have a different frequency? :)
 
"but when fully distributed throughout the grid,"

Don't worry, it won't be!

"frequency response will no longer be needed."

I'm amazed (but not much!) that you think the changing phase and frequency of the grid is a fault. You seem to think large rotating machinery being unstable and having inertia is the problem, compared with electronics (24-bit over-sampled, sub-cycle, and in real time of course!).
It would be very easy to use atomic clocks to keep a rotating machine's frequency and phase exact for ever if we wanted, perhaps you could suggest the idea to the big electricky suppliers as yet another SDE innovation.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2019, 03:54:20 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #91 on: June 05, 2019, 09:49:38 am »
EMP Detection: Software-Defined Electricity operates on the principle of oversampling inputs to extract maximum information on the power flow to deliver the most possible time to react to any electrical event. EMP travels in waves. In oceans preceding a tsunami, shore water recedes significantly back before the inrush. A similar phenomenon is true with EMP in power networks. Time is the most precious resource related to EMP damage mitigation. The sooner it is detected, the more time there is to react.
3dfs.com/news/3dfs-selected-as-finalist-for-nato-innovation-challenge/05/2019

Edit. Is there any evidence that the bold bit even exits for EMP, I've not been able to find any, yet.

Pretty neat, huh? It is always nice to teach somebody something that they did not know. You will carry that information forever.  :-+

"On 30 May 2019 the 7 finalists of the NATO innovation Challenge pitched their solutions to a jury composed of experts and authorities from the Czech Ministry of Defence, NATO Transformation Command, NATO Science and Technology Organization, Old Dominion University and the Czech Academy of Science...
The US based company Electronics Service won the Challenge,"


It seems you didn't manage to convince those experts of the EMP tsunami effect either!

https://innovationhub-act.org/content/innovation-challenge-winner

FR using 3DFS tech is Real-Time every microsecond, and unlimited because it is using the power from the grid to correct the power.

I remember thinking about that at the time. A generator changes the phase/frequency by adding or removing energy/fuel, it's impossible to use a 3ph supply's own energy to change its frequency. :horse:
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #92 on: June 05, 2019, 02:31:13 pm »
EMP Detection: Software-Defined Electricity operates on the principle of oversampling inputs to extract maximum information on the power flow to deliver the most possible time to react to any electrical event. EMP travels in waves. In oceans preceding a tsunami, shore water recedes significantly back before the inrush. A similar phenomenon is true with EMP in power networks. Time is the most precious resource related to EMP damage mitigation. The sooner it is detected, the more time there is to react.
3dfs.com/news/3dfs-selected-as-finalist-for-nato-innovation-challenge/05/2019

Edit. Is there any evidence that the bold bit even exits for EMP, I've not been able to find any, yet.

Pretty neat, huh? It is always nice to teach somebody something that they did not know. You will carry that information forever.  :-+

"On 30 May 2019 the 7 finalists of the NATO innovation Challenge pitched their solutions to a jury composed of experts and authorities from the Czech Ministry of Defence, NATO Transformation Command, NATO Science and Technology Organization, Old Dominion University and the Czech Academy of Science...
The US based company Electronics Service won the Challenge,"


It seems you didn't manage to convince those experts of the EMP tsunami effect either!

https://innovationhub-act.org/content/innovation-challenge-winner

FR using 3DFS tech is Real-Time every microsecond, and unlimited because it is using the power from the grid to correct the power.

I remember thinking about that at the time. A generator changes the phase/frequency by adding or removing energy/fuel, it's impossible to use a 3ph supply's own energy to change its frequency. :horse:

Alas for the EMP challenge we were unsuccessful. You are correct. They decided on the incredible innovation of shielding.  :palm:  Some people cannot see the elegance of this solution. Onward and upward.

Re: phase frequency, again you are incorrect. The device is temporarily storing the energy in the FESS which is then a separate source for instant injection. It is also where any extraction is temporarily stored. By temporarily storing the extracted energy and then using it when an injection is required, the device does not have to consume any "new power" from the grid/generator for the injections. This is part of what allows the device to be 98% efficient.

Compare that to the modern Cap banks which charge with grid power every single time. What an absurd waste of energy.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #93 on: June 05, 2019, 04:13:05 pm »
Alas for the EMP challenge we were unsuccessful. You are correct. They decided on the incredible innovation of shielding.  :palm:  Some people cannot see the elegance of this solution.

The problem is your EMP tsunami effect doesn't exist!

"Re: phase frequency, again you are incorrect. The device is temporarily storing the energy in the FESS which is then a separate source for instant injection. It is also where any extraction is temporarily stored. By temporarily storing the extracted energy and then using it when an injection is required, the device does not have to consume any "new power" from the grid/generator for the injections."

It's impossible for the phase/frequency in the wires to suddenly change as it passes the VectorQ2.

"This is part of what allows the device to be 98% efficient."

Your efficiencies hardly ever make any sense. If the VectorQ2 is doing many kWs of current correction it's efficiency should be well over 100%, if there's almost no current correcting to be done it's efficiency is less than zero, 98% doesn't come into it.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #94 on: June 05, 2019, 04:28:49 pm »
Your efficiencies hardly ever make any sense. If the VectorQ2 is doing many kWs of current correction it's efficiency should be well over 100%, if there's almost no current correcting to be done it's efficiency is less than zero, 98% doesn't come into it.

Agree. If the time-averaged efficiency is less than 100%, you would be better off not installing that thing, right?
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #95 on: June 05, 2019, 04:53:47 pm »
Agree. If the time-averaged efficiency is less than 100%, you would be better off not installing that thing, right?

Yes, :) it's only for high current, bad PF, unbalanced load, and charged for it, customers really, but they claimed to be developing one for the home. LOL.
In the video above somewhere, PQ somehow gets mixed with power used, charged for, and overall electrical efficiency, perhaps what's happening at the supplier's transformer is some of the 26 parameters. :)

CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #96 on: June 05, 2019, 05:33:55 pm »
Alas for the EMP challenge we were unsuccessful. You are correct. They decided on the incredible innovation of shielding.  :palm:  Some people cannot see the elegance of this solution.

The problem is your EMP tsunami effect doesn't exist!

"Re: phase frequency, again you are incorrect. The device is temporarily storing the energy in the FESS which is then a separate source for instant injection. It is also where any extraction is temporarily stored. By temporarily storing the extracted energy and then using it when an injection is required, the device does not have to consume any "new power" from the grid/generator for the injections."

It's impossible for the phase/frequency in the wires to suddenly change as it passes the VectorQ2.

"This is part of what allows the device to be 98% efficient."

Your efficiencies hardly ever make any sense. If the VectorQ2 is doing many kWs of current correction it's efficiency should be well over 100%, if there's almost no current correcting to be done it's efficiency is less than zero, 98% doesn't come into it.

This is mixing topics, the two must be separated; frequency regulation and phase angle control.

The Vector is making minute, in situ corrections with tiny amounts of current. It does not require massive amounts of current because it is maintaining the synchronization. Its like steering while driving, there are small corrections as you drive, not massive back and forth over steering (which would be the case using cap banks).

It is true that if the power is perfect coming in the facility, the box would lower its efficiency as it has to draw 70-120W at all times, but that is not reality. It is always correcting and balancing.

The calculation of efficiency is key here. We are using 70-120W of power at all times to correct (bring to full synchonization and balance) of 60kW at all times.
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #97 on: June 05, 2019, 05:38:43 pm »
Agree. If the time-averaged efficiency is less than 100%, you would be better off not installing that thing, right?

Yes, :) it's only for high current, bad PF, unbalanced load, and charged for it, customers really, but they claimed to be developing one for the home. LOL.
In the video above somewhere, PQ somehow gets mixed with power used, charged for, and overall electrical efficiency, perhaps what's happening at the supplier's transformer is some of the 26 parameters. :)

Don't forget surge protection, asset performance improvement and all of the data and analytics on each load.

The residential version is a trickier business case. Outside of high consumers of power or special cases like audiophiles, etc, the energy savings are just not there as homeowners usually have one or two major loads and are only in their house for 8-10 hours, mainly sleeping. It makes more sense from a utility perspective preventing the reactive power, phase imbalance and harmonics from affecting the load supply and capacity. Once we scale up and prices drop, the residential unit becomes more attractive.

If a home has solar and an EV, the case becomes very clear though as it improves the output of the solar and charging times and rates of the ev charger while protecting them both from poor power quality related wear and tear.



-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #98 on: June 05, 2019, 09:26:13 pm »
It's difficult the know where to start here, but I'll have a go. >:D

This is mixing topics, the two must be separated; frequency regulation and phase angle control.

 :wtf:

"The Vector is making minute, in situ corrections with tiny amounts of current."

It will be making (very roughly) around 20mA sized adjustments to about 3 Amps of current. 20mA is a tiny amount of current to a 3 ph supply, and nothing to do with micro Amps, the control signals will be higher than micro Amps. :)

"It does not require massive amounts of current because it is maintaining the synchronization."

It requires the larger current corrections approx. every 1/4 mains cycle, there's no such thing as "massive current now no longer required because it's maintaining the synchronization".

"Its like steering while driving, there are small corrections as you drive, not massive back and forth over steering (which would be the case using cap banks)."

No, It's more like peddling up a quite steep hill, you can't just stop peddling once you've got the bike moving up the hill.

"It is true that if the power is perfect coming in the facility,"

You probably mean, if the load(s) are already drawing their current in phase and balanced, which is a quite bit different.

"The calculation of efficiency is key here."

ROTFL

"We are using 70-120W of power at all times to correct (bring to full synchonization and balance) of 60kW at all times."

The 70-120W is just for the magic computing, the power control devices will use and dissipate more, especially if they're switching Amps at MHz frequencies. :)

"Don't forget surge protection,"

I haven't! It doesn't do very much in the way of surge protection, the wires are much to thin!

"asset performance improvement"

LOL  How do the assets even know if the current in the supplier's transformer is balanced or not.

"The residential version is a trickier business case. Outside of high consumers of power or special cases like audiophiles,"

Yeah, there's nothing there, even for audiophools.

"If a home has solar and an EV, the case becomes very clear though as it improves the output of the solar and charging times and rates of the ev charger"

You've mentioned the correction of the output power of solar and generators, for these devices does the VectorQ2 have to be connected backwards, think about it!

« Last Edit: June 05, 2019, 09:29:36 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #99 on: June 06, 2019, 12:58:11 am »
It's difficult the know where to start here, but I'll have a go. >:D

This is mixing topics, the two must be separated; frequency regulation and phase angle control.

 :wtf:

"The Vector is making minute, in situ corrections with tiny amounts of current."

It will be making (very roughly) around 20mA sized adjustments to about 3 Amps of current. 20mA is a tiny amount of current to a 3 ph supply, and nothing to do with micro Amps, the control signals will be higher than micro Amps. :)

"It does not require massive amounts of current because it is maintaining the synchronization."

It requires the larger current corrections approx. every 1/4 mains cycle, there's no such thing as "massive current now no longer required because it's maintaining the synchronization".

"Its like steering while driving, there are small corrections as you drive, not massive back and forth over steering (which would be the case using cap banks)."

No, It's more like peddling up a quite steep hill, you can't just stop peddling once you've got the bike moving up the hill.

"It is true that if the power is perfect coming in the facility,"

You probably mean, if the load(s) are already drawing their current in phase and balanced, which is a quite bit different.

"The calculation of efficiency is key here."

ROTFL

"We are using 70-120W of power at all times to correct (bring to full synchonization and balance) of 60kW at all times."

The 70-120W is just for the magic computing, the power control devices will use and dissipate more, especially if they're switching Amps at MHz frequencies. :)

"Don't forget surge protection,"

I haven't! It doesn't do very much in the way of surge protection, the wires are much to thin!

"asset performance improvement"

LOL  How do the assets even know if the current in the supplier's transformer is balanced or not.

"The residential version is a trickier business case. Outside of high consumers of power or special cases like audiophiles,"

Yeah, there's nothing there, even for audiophools.

"If a home has solar and an EV, the case becomes very clear though as it improves the output of the solar and charging times and rates of the ev charger"

You've mentioned the correction of the output power of solar and generators, for these devices does the VectorQ2 have to be connected backwards, think about it!


I get that you are trolling, but you are not even bothering to try here.

The 70-120W INCLUDES the power electronics and the correction is bidirectional.

The asset performance improvement comes from ideal non-fluctuating power to every asset. The most illustrative example here is a motor. When the current and voltage are not aligned, a 4 pole motor alternates between motor and generator at each pole. This is the most significant source of motor destruction in the power network. When there are multiple motors in the same panel, they interact with each other in this harmful way resulting in wear and tear that shortens the life of the motors by years.

In addition, the motors droop, falling below the rated 1375 rpm when they are loaded. In reality this is a problem with power supply. When SDE is installed in a motor control center for example, all the motors operate at the rated rpm whether loaded or not and since the C&V are always aligned, the motors never experience the fluctuation from generator to motor.

-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2019, 10:26:02 am »
The calculation of efficiency is key here. We are using 70-120W of power at all times to correct (bring to full synchonization and balance) of 60kW at all times.

When I load one phase with 60kW then the blue box would have to take 40kW from the other two phases for balancing. Let's do a very simplified calculation. The current would be about 350A (40kW/115V) and a super nice MOSFET with an R_DS_on of 2mOhms would drop about 0.7V (350A * 0.002Ohms). So the MOSFET burns roughly 250W (350A * 0.7V). Surely there are more components the current has to pass through.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2019, 12:00:20 pm »
The calculation of efficiency is key here. We are using 70-120W of power at all times to correct (bring to full synchonization and balance) of 60kW at all times.

When I load one phase with 60kW then the blue box would have to take 40kW from the other two phases for balancing. Let's do a very simplified calculation. The current would be about 350A (40kW/115V) and a super nice MOSFET with an R_DS_on of 2mOhms would drop about 0.7V (350A * 0.002Ohms). So the MOSFET burns roughly 250W (350A * 0.7V). Surely there are more components the current has to pass through.

That is ridiculous, as I am sure you understand. You lack knowledge of our methods, perhaps it is best to stick to the results.

Maybe this will help.



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Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #102 on: June 06, 2019, 02:21:10 pm »
That is ridiculous, as I am sure you understand. You lack knowledge of our methods, perhaps it is best to stick to the results.

No! When I load L1 with 60kW (L1 to N), how does the blue box balance the 60kW across all three phases in a way the grid's three phases are loaded equally with 20kW each?

BTW, if the blue box has an efficiency of 98% and is able to deal with 60kW the inefficiency is 1200W.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 02:26:24 pm by madires »
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #103 on: June 06, 2019, 02:55:20 pm »
You lack knowledge of our methods,

Around 50% of your claims are electrically or physically impossible or just nonsense. Most of them are nothing to do with your methods or our understanding of your methods, they're just laws of the universe. It's a very target rich environment. :)

When you're trying to show which direction the power or current is flowing in wires on a diagram it would help if N and G weren't connected at one of the loads.

The 70-120W INCLUDES the power electronics

A 1cm x 1cm CPU can dissipate 150W with a small heat sink and small fan, no one would have to use water cooling, oil cooling and 2 big fans to dissipate 70-120W.
Why don't you say that is uses only 120W while correcting 60kW worth of power. That would make it's efficiency 120/60,000 = 99.998 %. :palm:  99.8 % which is even better!

Quote
and the correction is bidirectional.

The current correction is not bidirectional, which is why the current transformer has to go on the supply side of the current correcting connection. Another simpler reason is that it's impossible.

Quote
The most illustrative example here is a motor. When the current and voltage are not aligned, a 4 pole motor alternates between motor and generator at each pole. This is the most significant source of motor destruction in the power network.

When the currents and voltages are aligned in the suppliers transformer, the currents and voltages in the motor will still be misaligned, the only way for the currents and voltages to be aligned in a motor is for it to not be a motor.
Your claims that you somehow correct the phase of the current inside motors and make them better is among the most ridiculous, I'm surprised you continue with them. There's at least one other thread on it somewhere.

Quote
When there are multiple motors in the same panel, they interact with each other in this harmful way resulting in wear and tear that shortens the life of the motors by years.

That's not all bad, just some.

Quote
When SDE is installed in a motor control center for example, all the motors operate at the rated rpm whether loaded or not and since the C&V are always aligned, the motors never experience the fluctuation from generator to motor.

Not true, and Bonkers!
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 03:48:46 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #104 on: June 06, 2019, 04:24:49 pm »
I am just wandering, why isn't this thread already locked, trashed, and troll blocked?
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #105 on: June 06, 2019, 04:24:56 pm »
Quote
A 1cm x 1cm CPU can dissipate 150W with a small heat sink and small fan, no one would have to use water cooling, oil cooling and 2 big fans to dissipate 70-120W.
Why don't you say that is uses only 120W while correcting 60kW worth of power. That would make it's efficiency 120/60,000 = 99.998 %. :palm:  99.8 % which is even better!

The VectorQ is provides complete surge protection. The fans do not turn on unless a surge comes through.

Quote
The current correction is not bidirectional, which is why the current transformer has to go on the supply side of the current correcting connection. Another simpler reason is that it's impossible.

Yes it is. The CTs are measuring the power flow which is inherently bidirectional, The correction absolutely goes both ways.

Quote
When the currents and voltages are aligned in the suppliers transformer, the currents and voltages in the motor will still be misaligned, the only way for the currents and voltages to be aligned in a motor is for it to not be a motor. Your claims that you somehow correct the phase of the current inside motors and make them better is among the most ridiculous, I'm surprised you continue with them. There's at least one other thread on it somewhere.

You are wrong here too. Cleaning up the power at the panel like we do delivers the exact amount into the panel that is demanded resulting in the unintelligent loads consuming precisely what they demanded. Loads do not consume more power than they demand unless it is forced to by fluctuating power. I am surprised you do not realize this.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline Gregg

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #106 on: June 07, 2019, 03:13:56 am »
I am just wandering, why isn't this thread already locked, trashed, and troll blocked?
Although controversial, this thread is entertaining and somewhat educational (if an interested person wants to take the time to look up the claims and arguments presented).  There aren’t very many posts on this forum related to mains and grid AC power.  Power engineering should be near and dear to most electronics enthusiasts because it is the probably the most often used power source for most of us. Plus, it hasn’t really crossed the lines of unacceptability to the point of banning.
It is the batterizer for mains power; note the number of posts this forum had for the batterizer.  Similar to the batterizer there are very loose connections to reality that might look good drawn on the back of a napkin after a couple of pints at the local pub.  :-DD
It is also entertaining to observe someone digging themselves into a hole and wondering how deep they get before it all collapses.  The anticipation of if or when a real working model is available helps keep interest even if the odds approach zero of getting real verifiable data from the purveyors of this theoretical device.  :popcorn:
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #107 on: June 07, 2019, 05:10:32 am »
Of course there's a market in the audiophool trade. It's the next best thing since a copper rod in a box of rocks. :-DD

"Complete surge protection" when the wires are thin and it's supposedly going to sink the surge current through it's own supply breakers. If you try to sink current beyond a certain point it would, by the laws of physics, trip it's own breakers. :palm: We've been throught this...


"I reject your reality and substitute my own!" -Adam Savage

« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 05:13:28 am by Cyberdragon »
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #108 on: June 08, 2019, 01:42:45 pm »
The VectorQ is provides complete surge protection. The fans do not turn on unless a surge comes through.

Its current correcting wires are too thin and inductive for it to do much in the way of surge protection, never mind complete surge protection.

Quote
Quote
The current correction is not bidirectional, which is why the current transformer has to go on the supply side of the current correcting connection. Another simpler reason is that it's impossible.

Yes it is. The CTs are measuring the power flow which is inherently bidirectional, The correction absolutely goes both ways.

The current corrections and the power direction corrections only apply to the supply side. It's impossible to change the current, or the two way power direction of a load with bad PF on the loads side.

Quote
Quote
When the currents and voltages are aligned in the suppliers transformer, the currents and voltages in the motor will still be misaligned, the only way for the currents and voltages to be aligned in a motor is for it to not be a motor. Your claims that you somehow correct the phase of the current inside motors and make them better is among the most ridiculous, I'm surprised you continue with them. There's at least one other thread on it somewhere.

You are wrong here too.

I've checked, I'm not!

Details, just in case there's anyone still reading. :)

The CTs measure the current on the supply side of the current correcting wire, from there they can determine the supply side power and it's direction.

The CTs can't measure anything on the loads side of the correction wire because they're not there.
And nothing can be done with the current or power directions on the load side anyway, because it is the load(s) that determine it.

So the current corrections correct the direction of power flow on the supply side so that the supply power direction is always flowing from the supply.

But the supply side current corrections can't change anything at all on the load side, so can't change any of the 2 way power directions or PF of the loads.
Nothing changes at all on the loads side so it can't fix a motor's PF, or any thing else on the loads side. But it does hide the 2 way power direction fluctuations from the incoming supply.

Quote
Cleaning up the power at the panel

It cleans the power on the supply side so that the power's direction there is always from the supply.
But on the load side the two way power fluctuations due to a load's bad PF are still there. So bits like "unintelligent loads consuming precisely what they demanded" and "power fluctuations" are just nonsense.
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Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #109 on: June 08, 2019, 02:16:02 pm »
The VectorQ is provides complete surge protection. The fans do not turn on unless a surge comes through.

Its current correcting wires are too thin and inductive for it to do much in the way of surge protection, never mind complete surge protection.

For a proper surge protection the blue box would need to be inline, not detached. Don't 3DFS know such basic stuff?


Quote
Quote
Yes it is. The CTs are measuring the power flow which is inherently bidirectional, The correction absolutely goes both ways.

The current corrections and the power direction corrections only apply to the supply side. It's impossible to change the current, or the two way power direction of a load with bad PF on the loads side.

By using only current transformers the blue box can't measure any DC component which would be bad for the grid.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #110 on: June 08, 2019, 05:45:14 pm »
I love it when you talk about how this technology cannot do what it absolutely is doing based on your understanding of antiquated technology.  :-DD

You are wrong on all accounts. The sensing is the most important part, and yes, it is bidirectional.  Power flow does not magically restart at the panel and by sampling every 6ns for every cycle, SDE is measuring both directions of power flow.

If you attempted to build this box with your limited knowledge, you are pointing out all of the areas where you would fail. Our approach is much different, and therefore the results are much better.
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #111 on: June 08, 2019, 05:51:34 pm »
Quote
For a proper surge protection the blue box would need to be inline, not detached. Don't 3DFS know such basic stuff?

By "proper" do you mean TVSS that degrade with every strike and does not even let you know how much protection there is?  :-DD If that is proper, then keep doing what you are doing. Ignorance is bliss.

SDE relies on the real time computing and intelligent sensing to be able to clean the power and absorb the surges in parallel. This is the advantage of working with data rather than guessing at surge protection. Again, you are applying your standards, which are not applicable here.


Quote
By using only current transformers the blue box can't measure any DC component which would be bad for the grid.

This is also not true. We use proprietary flex coil transformers, and have absolutely perfect visibility into the power network. There is nothing that is missed by this method of sensing. In fact, laboratories purchase our Calibri series, which delivers only the measurement without the correction because of the accuracy of data acquisition.

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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #112 on: June 08, 2019, 06:42:29 pm »
Quote
For a proper surge protection the blue box would need to be inline, not detached. Don't 3DFS know such basic stuff?

SDE relies on the real time computing and intelligent sensing to be able to clean the power and absorb the surges in parallel. This is the advantage of working with data rather than guessing at surge protection. Again, you are applying your standards, which are not applicable here.

Chris, your statements do not make any sense.

The problem with the "detached surge protection" is the inductance and resistance of the long cables. No matter what you do in that magical blue box, it will not be able to protect the wiring from fast high-voltage surges, because most of the surge energy does not even get to your blue box. All your "digital", "software defined", "intelligent sensing" is just smoke and mirrors.

I do not understand why you keep posting here. You are not gaining a shred of credibility here -- every single one of your posts is torn apart by various people, and for very good reasons. It cannot be fun to do this, at least not for you... And if you have the commercial interests of 3DFS in mind, the best you could try and do is to let this thread peter out and hope not too many people find it.
 

Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #113 on: June 08, 2019, 06:46:03 pm »
Quote
For a proper surge protection the blue box would need to be inline, not detached. Don't 3DFS know such basic stuff?

By "proper" do you mean TVSS that degrade with every strike and does not even let you know how much protection there is?  :-DD If that is proper, then keep doing what you are doing. Ignorance is bliss.

Exactly! ;) You forgot the wire between the detached blue box and the distribution panel. If you want to suppress surges you need to do it inline with mains for optimal results. As StillTrying already has explained, the wire has inductance for example. The next thing you got wrong are TVSs. MOVs degrade with each surge. TVSs don't degrade as long as you don't exceed their limits.

Quote
Quote
By using only current transformers the blue box can't measure any DC component which would be bad for the grid.

This is also not true. We use proprietary flex coil transformers, and have absolutely perfect visibility into the power network. There is nothing that is missed by this method of sensing. In fact, laboratories purchase our Calibri series, which delivers only the measurement without the correction because of the accuracy of data acquisition.

Doesn't matter! As long as it's a transformer you can only measure AC, not DC. Also very basic stuff.

Anyway, I have to admit that you convinced me that the blue box is nothing I would buy or recommend to others. If that was your goal, you've succeeded. :palm:
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #114 on: June 08, 2019, 06:58:47 pm »

Quote
By using only current transformers the blue box can't measure any DC component which would be bad for the grid.
[[My emphasis]]

This is also not true. We use proprietary flex coil transformers, and have absolutely perfect visibility into the power network. There is nothing that is missed by this method of sensing. In fact, laboratories purchase our Calibri series, which delivers only the measurement without the correction because of the accuracy of data acquisition.

The above is why people here think you have zero credibility. You go around telling people that they don't know what they are talking about and then make a statement like that. Somebody studying electricity in a (high) school physics class (not even college level) ought to know that DC does not make it across a transformer, ought to know that transformers are strictly AC transducers. This isn't a difference of opinion, a difference of perspective or anything like that, you are just plain flat-out wrong - there is no other way of framing it. If you are incapable of getting the very basics right, fundamental laws of physics, why should anybody trust you to discuss more advanced topics?
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #115 on: June 08, 2019, 07:09:08 pm »
I do not understand why you keep posting here. You are not gaining a shred of credibility here -- every single one of your posts is torn apart by various people, and for very good reasons. It cannot be fun to do this, at least not for you... And if you have the commercial interests of 3DFS in mind, the best you could try and do is to let this thread peter out and hope not too many people find it.

Neither do I. Maybe it's his education in psychology. All I get from this is that 3DFS is the Batteroo for mains. I can imagine that a Fourier based approach might possibly work, but that would involve a lot of processing and a large box without tiny wires.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #116 on: June 08, 2019, 07:21:02 pm »
Maybe we are underestimating Chris...
https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherdoerfler/

(I have criticized others for linking to the LinkedIn profile of pseudonymus users before, but since Chris has been open about his 3DFS affiliation I trust this is OK. Chris, if you prefer this link to be removed, please let me know and I will edit the post.)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 07:23:04 pm by ebastler »
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #117 on: June 08, 2019, 07:22:44 pm »
Quote
For a proper surge protection the blue box would need to be inline, not detached. Don't 3DFS know such basic stuff?

SDE relies on the real time computing and intelligent sensing to be able to clean the power and absorb the surges in parallel. This is the advantage of working with data rather than guessing at surge protection. Again, you are applying your standards, which are not applicable here.

Chris, your statements do not make any sense.

The problem with the "detached surge protection" is the inductance and resistance of the long cables. No matter what you do in that magical blue box, it will not be able to protect the wiring from fast high-voltage surges, because most of the surge energy does not even get to your blue box. All your "digital", "software defined", "intelligent sensing" is just smoke and mirrors.

I do not understand why you keep posting here. You are not gaining a shred of credibility here -- every single one of your posts is torn apart by various people, and for very good reasons. It cannot be fun to do this, at least not for you... And if you have the commercial interests of 3DFS in mind, the best you could try and do is to let this thread peter out and hope not too many people find it.

Regarding the inductance and resistance of the cables, that is accounted for, and yes it does provide real time lightning protection through active shunting as demonstrated over and over.

The problem here is that we have internet experts who have never had firsthand experience with this technology, yet have some extensive opinions on it. Since it is grounded in math and science and passed every single third party evaluation, demonstration and test that we have ever done, the only conclusion is that you are all wrong and I am not doing a great job of explaining it.

Regarding the fun, it actually is rather fun for me. Educational too. Engaging with you all has helped me by providing me information that I can follow up on to better understand at the deep levels. As everybody knows here (just not as well as my engineers), electricity is complex and there is a lot to this.

It would be great if this were more of an educational forum, where I could receive serious questions from inquiring minds and if I did not know the answer, I could go get it, but every discussion here devolves into attacks and poking fun, so I play to the audience.

Luckily for me, none of our clients give a shit about this forum, nor would they spend hours perusing the content looking for nuggets of truth etc. Our clients as for proof, which we provide.

It boggles my mind that you all think we have spent a decade building 3DFS and SAM Controllers, which is absolutely revolutionizing compressed air, liquid leveling and water pump control just like 3DFS is revolutionizing power control, and you 3 or 4 are totally blind to the success of our approach, because you would rather remain internet experts.  :-//
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #118 on: June 08, 2019, 07:23:44 pm »
I do not understand why you keep posting here. You are not gaining a shred of credibility here -- every single one of your posts is torn apart by various people, and for very good reasons. It cannot be fun to do this, at least not for you... And if you have the commercial interests of 3DFS in mind, the best you could try and do is to let this thread peter out and hope not too many people find it.

Neither do I. Maybe it's his education in psychology. All I get from this is that 3DFS is the Batteroo for mains. I can imagine that a Fourier based approach might possibly work, but that would involve a lot of processing and a large box without tiny wires.

Fourier analysis?!! :-DD  That is absurd and obsolete. Impossible to provide accuracy.

This is an example of where our computing method opens up approaches that you are simply not capable of comprehending. This is an example of an educational opportunity, but as you see, you attack me for my psych degree.

I am proud of my knowledge and educational experiences. I had to step way outside my comfort zone to learn this. It touches on real time computing, electrical engineering, power electronics, chemistry and material science, data science, ai, ml, and others. It is genuine innovation and I have a front seat. My psych degree is irrelevant to that.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 07:50:16 pm by cdoerfler »
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #119 on: June 08, 2019, 07:26:47 pm »
Maybe we are underestimating Chris...
https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopherdoerfler/

(I have criticized others for linking to the LinkedIn profile of pseudonymus users before, but since Chris has been open about his 3DFS affiliation I trust this is OK. Chris, if you prefer this link to be removed, please let me know and I will edit the post.)

I appreciate your asking, thank you. I am okay with it.

The thing you are all missing is that I am part of a team of technologists. The information will eventually catch up to you all. We are simply way ahead of everybody else, so far ahead that it looks like magic. One day, you will all be grateful for this technology, although you will never accept my approach to communicating this, I grant you that.
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #120 on: June 09, 2019, 01:41:36 am »
No your invention would violate well established laws of electrical physics that have been studied for about 220 FUCKING YEARS! :palm: If you can suddenly bend the laws of physics to your will then where's our lightsabers, cold fusion, open air holograms, ftl travel, forcefields, exc. ::)

And to be clear, we aren't the only ones onto your BS. :blah: :bullshit:

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/an-operating-system-for-electricity.149474/
https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=187471&page=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/energy/comments/8or7gl/3dfss_software_for_electricity_could_double_the/
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline sibeen

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #121 on: June 09, 2019, 03:17:04 am »
It's a nice thread, and cdoerfler is either bonkers or just a sales person; in many cases it may be hard to tell the difference. My only issue with the thread is that other bits of mis-information is also being included by other users. The two most egregious one's I've spotted are “Backfeeding breakers is also iffy, only certain types allow it” and “For a proper surge protection the blue box would need to be inline, not detached.”

For the first I’ve never seen a breaker that isn’t bi-directional. Some of the more ‘intelligent’ trip units can have reverse power flow detection and such which may trip a breaker if the current flows opposite to that which is expected, but that’s about it.

For the second the vast, vast, vast majority of surge suppression is carried out by a device, whether it be a MOV, SASD, TVSS etc, that is placed in parallel with the incoming line. The feed to the protection device needs to be as short as possible but the device is certainly not put in-line.


My 2 cents worth :)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 03:21:26 am by sibeen »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #122 on: June 09, 2019, 06:18:41 am »
... the vast, vast, vast majority of surge suppression is carried out by a device, whether it be a MOV, SASD, TVSS etc, that is placed in parallel with the incoming line. The feed to the protection device needs to be as short as possible but the device is certainly not put in-line.

I am pretty sure this is what everybody meant when talking about "in-line" surge protection: A protection device that sits in the same box as your main fuses or distribution board, to allow for short, fat connections. That's in contrast to the 3DFS connections to the blue box, which seem to be on the long and flimsy side (photo below). Yes, of course the blue box can short out some surge voltage, but only the part that gets to it...

To put it another way, "in-line" does not mean "in series" (at least to this non-native speaker.  ;))


 

Offline sibeen

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #123 on: June 09, 2019, 06:54:24 am »

To put it another way, "in-line" does not mean "in series" (at least to this non-native speaker.  ;))



I can live with that :)

I also had a thought about the circuit breaker, some RCBO/RCD/ELCB type breakers may also be directional in their current sensing and may also trip if installed 'backwards', but for your general purpose ACB/MCCB/MCB, for those in IEC world, couldn't give a rats about which way they face.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #124 on: June 09, 2019, 10:34:17 am »
Quote
By using only current transformers the blue box can't measure any DC component which would be bad for the grid.

This is also not true. We use proprietary flex coil transformers, and have absolutely perfect visibility into the power network. There is nothing that is missed by this method of sensing. In fact, laboratories purchase our Calibri series, which delivers only the measurement without the correction because of the accuracy of data acquisition.

Calibri series is not even a current transformer, and you can't make a coil transformer work down to DC by using faster data acquisition.
I've seen much better logic from an internet bot. :)
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #125 on: June 09, 2019, 01:26:55 pm »
No your invention would violate well established laws of electrical physics that have been studied for about 220 FUCKING YEARS! :palm: If you can suddenly bend the laws of physics to your will then where's our lightsabers, cold fusion, open air holograms, ftl travel, forcefields, exc. ::)

And to be clear, we aren't the only ones onto your BS. :blah: :bullshit:

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/an-operating-system-for-electricity.149474/
https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=187471&page=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/energy/comments/8or7gl/3dfss_software_for_electricity_could_double_the/

Do you hear yourself? What is more likely, that you don't understand or we are violating known laws of physics?

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #126 on: June 09, 2019, 02:17:12 pm »
I'm out of here. As long as all we get from cdoerfler is the insistence that it works, combined with both the unwillingness and inability to explain how it supposedly works, this thread is not going anywhere.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 02:53:22 pm by ebastler »
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #127 on: June 09, 2019, 02:26:24 pm »
No your invention would violate well established laws of electrical physics that have been studied for about 220 FUCKING YEARS! :palm: If you can suddenly bend the laws of physics to your will then where's our lightsabers, cold fusion, open air holograms, ftl travel, forcefields, exc. ::)

And to be clear, we aren't the only ones onto your BS. :blah: :bullshit:

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/an-operating-system-for-electricity.149474/
https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=187471&page=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/energy/comments/8or7gl/3dfss_software_for_electricity_could_double_the/

Do you hear yourself? What is more likely, that you don't understand or we are violating known laws of physics?

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke

We understand basic physics perfectly well. There IS nothing to understand about your BS, you CAN'T violate the laws of physics. That's why the other forums are calling you out.

What is more likely, that you suddently invent tech that can violate 200 year old laws of phsics and you use it for a boring little PF corrector instead of fancy sci-fi stuff, or that you are simply a very persistant charlitan that has gone nuts believing their own shit? You are not even a real engineer, you are a goon. :blah: :bullshit:

"I reject your reality and substitute my own" -Adam Savage

For example you CAN'T detect DC with a transformer. Physics dictates that you CANNOT create a current with a static magnetic field. No amount of electronic rubbish can change that. "flex coil transformers" :-DD :bullshit: Do you also have a flux capacitor? Surprised you didn't use a hall effect sensor as an excuse, at least that can detect static fields.
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #128 on: June 09, 2019, 02:32:18 pm »
I'm out of here. As long as all we get from cdoerfler is the insistence that it works, combined with both the unwillingness and inability to explain how it works, this thread is not going anywhere.

He's not an engineer, he's a marketing puppet. He's been driven mad into wholely believing anything the phony dev team dishes out to him to spew on the internet. He fails miserably every time when he encounters real engineers. (just look at the top vote)

The only people he's managed to fool are the dumb media who also believed in things like waterseer, ubeam, batterizer, fontus, exc. And guess what happened to those... ::)
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #129 on: June 09, 2019, 03:03:45 pm »
To think that we have had nearly a decade of progress, demonstrations and evaluation in front of people who actually test and assess the technology and none of them have come to such as rudimentary conclusion yet the internet physics keyboard warrior gurus are certain.

I am humbled to be in the presence of such physics gurus that can assess a technological innovation over the internet from thousands of miles away without ever witnessing it first hand.  :palm:





-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #130 on: June 09, 2019, 03:56:53 pm »
If you think that we are just a bunch of internet trolls and morons unable to grasp 3DFS' magic technology why do you waste your time with this discussion?
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #131 on: June 09, 2019, 06:25:49 pm »
I am humbled to be in the presence of such physics gurus that can assess a technological innovation over the internet from thousands of miles away without ever witnessing it first hand.  :palm:

Thanks. :P
But the laws of physics that your claims violate were made billions of years ago, haven't changed, and are the same everywhere, so we don't have to be where you are to know how they work. :palm:

Quote
To think that we have had nearly a decade of progress, demonstrations and evaluation in front of people who actually test and assess the technology and none of them have come to such as rudimentary conclusion yet the internet physics keyboard warrior gurus are certain.

You claim to have a team of engineers, research scientists and power experts working for years, demonstrations and evaluations, and then claim that the current corrections at the panel "clean the power" and cause asynchronous motors to operate synchronously loaded or not. Even after everyone says those motors don't work like that, and that the PF at the load/motor doesn't change anyway!
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1070789837026783232

Has any happy customer witnessed that miracle fake claim first hand.
I thought not!

I'm afraid many of your claims of what the VectorQ2 can do are worse than bonkers, I might have to upgrade bonkers to fake. 8)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 06:33:06 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #132 on: June 10, 2019, 10:03:24 am »
If you think that we are just a bunch of internet trolls and morons unable to grasp 3DFS' magic technology why do you waste your time with this discussion?

Frankly, it is educational. Only in a group of knee jerk denialists would "experts" in physics openly defend that wasting 68% of energy that is produced is simply the course of normal business because it has been done this way for over a century.

I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit when in objective reality, this is all waste from not controlling and balancing power in real time.

Keep ignoring reality. It does not slow my roll.

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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #133 on: June 10, 2019, 10:36:22 am »
Frankly, it is educational. Only in a group of knee jerk denialists would "experts" in physics openly defend that wasting 68% of energy that is produced is simply the course of normal business because it has been done this way for over a century.

I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit when in objective reality, this is all waste from not controlling and balancing power in real time.

In your assessment, what fraction of that 68% loss is addressable by 3DFS load balancing?

Hmm, seems I am not out of here yet...
Must practice self control... ::)
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #134 on: June 10, 2019, 10:43:49 am »
Frankly, it is educational. Only in a group of knee jerk denialists would "experts" in physics openly defend that wasting 68% of energy that is produced is simply the course of normal business because it has been done this way for over a century.

I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit when in objective reality, this is all waste from not controlling and balancing power in real time.

In your assessment, what fraction of that 68% loss is addressable by 3DFS load balancing?



Hmm, seems I am not out of here yet...
Must practice self control... ::)

It is not just load balancing, although that is a considerable source of loss. Correcting reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing in real time everywhere, at the source, in transformation, conversion (AC/DC), distribution, storage, consumption. When these are addressed and the PQR is brought to 90%+, more than half can be prevented.
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Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #135 on: June 10, 2019, 11:58:23 am »
If you think that we are just a bunch of internet trolls and morons unable to grasp 3DFS' magic technology why do you waste your time with this discussion?

Frankly, it is educational. Only in a group of knee jerk denialists would "experts" in physics openly defend that wasting 68% of energy that is produced is simply the course of normal business because it has been done this way for over a century.

Have a look at the efficiency of combustion engines and how it has evolved over time. We're still driving around with combustion engines, and those magic fuel savers from the TV ads don't work.

I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit when in objective reality, this is all waste from not controlling and balancing power in real time.

Are transmission losses BS?
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #136 on: June 10, 2019, 12:30:22 pm »
Quote
Have a look at the efficiency of combustion engines and how it has evolved over time. We're still driving around with combustion engines, and those magic fuel savers from the TV ads don't work.

Are transmission losses BS?

This is precisely where this group completely abdicates logic in lieu of what some guy taught you years ago.

Losses related to reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing exist at generation. In fact, they are the absolute worst at the point of generation. Where do you think the heat that is induced (physics, remember) is emitted? Why do you think the generator, turbine and exhaust is so hot?

Okay, so now move down the line to capacitor banks or inverters... same thing, clearly reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing issues here...

Transformers? Same

Transmission wires? Same, although there is no modern way that can measure the actual losses, so they are calculated from before and after.  :palm:

Energy storage? Same

And consumption, where these same problems exist.

What would a non-indoctrinated engineer assume about a system that is losing energy like this from top to bottom?

But instead of objectively looking at this system, you choose to blindly accept these losses. If nothing else, it is an indictment on the way power engineers have been educated the world round.

These losses are not just energy waste, but the source of nearly all of the grid instability that exists as well. Further, this lack of control and balance coupled with it being controlled by unintelligent switches and PLC programming makes the grid so vulnerable to cyberattack that it really is a matter of time before that gets revealed.

Blind acceptance of 68% waste in a system is frankly pathetic.
 
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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #137 on: June 10, 2019, 12:44:19 pm »
I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit
So, you disproved Carnot's theorem?
That's an interesting development... :palm:
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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #138 on: June 10, 2019, 12:54:24 pm »
I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit
So, you disproved Carnot's theorem?
That's an interesting development... :palm:

Come on, let’s stay reasonable. He said that other effects (losses) are dominant, not that Carnot‘s theorem is invalid.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #139 on: June 10, 2019, 01:01:57 pm »
Quote
Have a look at the efficiency of combustion engines and how it has evolved over time. We're still driving around with combustion engines, and those magic fuel savers from the TV ads don't work.

Are transmission losses BS?

This is precisely where this group completely abdicates logic in lieu of what some guy taught you years ago.

Losses related to reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing exist at generation. In fact, they are the absolute worst at the point of generation. Where do you think the heat that is induced (physics, remember) is emitted? Why do you think the generator, turbine and exhaust is so hot?

Okay, so now move down the line to capacitor banks or inverters... same thing, clearly reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing issues here...

Transformers? Same

Transmission wires? Same, although there is no modern way that can measure the actual losses, so they are calculated from before and after.  :palm:

Energy storage? Same

And consumption, where these same problems exist.

What would a non-indoctrinated engineer assume about a system that is losing energy like this from top to bottom?

But instead of objectively looking at this system, you choose to blindly accept these losses. If nothing else, it is an indictment on the way power engineers have been educated the world round.

These losses are not just energy waste, but the source of nearly all of the grid instability that exists as well. Further, this lack of control and balance coupled with it being controlled by unintelligent switches and PLC programming makes the grid so vulnerable to cyberattack that it really is a matter of time before that gets revealed.

Blind acceptance of 68% waste in a system is frankly pathetic.

We don't blindy except them, they were established physics since the big bang. :palm: Transmission loss has nothing to do with "harmionic losses" throughout the entire system (total bullshit). Everything that isn't a superconductor in an AC system has an impedance at the normal operating frequency even with a perfect sine wave and PF. That's basic high school physics that your superiors must have beaten out of you for you to believe this rubbish.

EDIT: In fact, hydroelectric power is nearly 100% effiecient ::), the only losses due to said impedance. This 68% only applies to steam plants where the losses are mainly in the steam system. :palm:
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 01:09:12 pm by Cyberdragon »
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #140 on: June 10, 2019, 01:05:45 pm »
Come on, let’s stay reasonable. He said that other effects (losses) are dominant, not that Carnot‘s theorem is invalid.
Then why bring it up? What's his point?

There must be a language barrier. I honestly understand 10% of what he writes. I can grammatically parse the sentences, but they just don't mean anything to me most of the times...this is another example:
Quote
Cleaning up the power at the panel like we do delivers the exact amount into the panel that is demanded resulting in the unintelligent loads consuming precisely what they demanded
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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #141 on: June 10, 2019, 01:27:59 pm »
There must be a language barrier. I honestly understand 10% of what he writes.

Yes, there clearly is a barrier -- not so much in language, but in thought process, scientific background, and intent of the communication. I think Chris is to some extent muddying the waters intentionally, since he is delivering his sales pitch. And to some extent he just does not understand the underlying fundamentals.

As a result, I find there is no willingness or ability on Chris' part to differentiate:
  • What are unavoidable losses (be they due to resistive losses, stray magnetic fields in a generator, Carnot cycle in a thermodynamic machine etc.), vs. which losses can be reduced by ensuring good load balancing and sinusoidal currents/voltages? Heck, a lot of the losses in the Lawrence Livermore chart have nothing to do with electrical systems at all...
  • What relative improvements does the 3DFS "digital" approach bring over traditional approaches for load balancing etc.? It's not like the 3DFS gadgets cannot have any benefit at all -- but why, and to what extent, would they be better than classical approaches?
Anyway, I don't have high hopes for qualified, differentiated answers...
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #142 on: June 10, 2019, 01:55:06 pm »
Quote
What are unavoidable losses (be they due to resistive losses, stray magnetic fields in a generator, Carnot cycle in a thermodynamic machine etc.), vs. which losses can be reduced by ensuring good load balancing and sinusoidal currents/voltages? Heck, a lot of the losses in the Lawrence Livermore chart have nothing to do with electrical systems at all...

Carnot are separate losses, before electricity generation. I2R losses will always exist, however they are significantly smaller when the power is corrected in real time. Losses related to resistivity, impedance, neutral and ground currents, as well as stray magnetic field, stray and eddy current losses are all absolutely maintained at their minimal when the power is controlled and balanced in real time.

Quote
What relative improvements does the 3DFS "digital" approach bring over traditional approaches for load balancing etc.? It's not like the 3DFS gadgets cannot have any benefit at all -- but why, and to what extent, would they be better than classical approaches?

The main advantage is continuous loss prevention for all three (harmonics, reactive power and phase imbalance) as opposed to piecemeal staggered compensation. The classical approach is imprecise and not based on real time data that precisely corrects for the problem at the appropriate speed. If you look at the classical approach to power factor that is marketed as unity, it is not anywhere close to unity, which is clearly revealed when our measurement methodology is used.

Here is an example of a sampling from a chicken processing plant where the engineers were absolutely positive that their facility was at "unity power factor" all the time.



It just isn't so, and without the proper measurement (i.e. the nanoseconds that you are all making fun of) they would have gone on believing that.
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Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #143 on: June 10, 2019, 02:24:33 pm »
Losses related to reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing exist at generation. In fact, they are the absolute worst at the point of generation. Where do you think the heat that is induced (physics, remember) is emitted? Why do you think the generator, turbine and exhaust is so hot?

I see, you are talking about losses caused by phase-shifting and so on. But those losses are only a part of the total sum of losses. There are things like wire resistance and transformer losses (even for a perfect sine wave and a PF of 1). Your argumentation based on the total sum of losses is misleading.
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #145 on: June 10, 2019, 02:53:14 pm »
Losses related to reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing exist at generation. In fact, they are the absolute worst at the point of generation. Where do you think the heat that is induced (physics, remember) is emitted? Why do you think the generator, turbine and exhaust is so hot?

I see, you are talking about losses caused by phase-shifting and so on. But those losses are only a part of the total sum of losses. There are things like wire resistance and transformer losses (even for a perfect sine wave and a PF of 1). Your argumentation based on the total sum of losses is misleading.

My intention is not to mislead, but to inform. As you have all mercilessly pointed out, my formal education is not in engineering and this does lead to a bit of confusion.

I am absolutely willing to clean up any misleading language, but on this forum in particular, it is difficult to tell where communication assistance ends and mocking begins. One thing that you should consider though is that there are many losses that you likely consider unavoidable, which are actually preventable, or largely preventable.

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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #146 on: June 11, 2019, 07:20:56 am »
(i.e. the nanoseconds that you are all making fun of)

Your last 2 posts aren't bad, but don't worry, your nanoseconds and 24-bits are still nonsense,

My intention is not to mislead, but to inform.

At about the same time you wrote that, on twitter you wrote:

"On the supply side, take a typical coal plant, which if outfitted with SDE will output almost double the energy while burning the same amount of coal. Same with natural gas, nuclear etc. because they are all steam."
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1138117446555095041

"For renewables and energy storage, inverters replaced by SDE enabled inverters will result in anywhere from 20-40% more output."
 :palm:
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:27:35 am by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #147 on: June 11, 2019, 08:51:39 am »
My intention is not to mislead, but to inform.

At about the same time you wrote that, on twitter you wrote:

"On the supply side, take a typical coal plant, which if outfitted with SDE will output almost double the energy while burning the same amount of coal. Same with natural gas, nuclear etc. because they are all steam."
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1138117446555095041

Most likely he do not see difference between Transmission & Distribution losses and energy conversion (heat) losses.

US is losing 5% of electric energy in the grid:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory chart shows total energy lost.
https://youtu.be/G6dlvECRfcI?t=83

FYI typical coal plant is around 40% 34% efficient. No way you can improve it's conversion efficiency using fancy "digital electricity box". Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 09:57:42 am by ogden »
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #148 on: June 11, 2019, 09:38:24 am »
FYI typical coal plant is around 40% efficient.

I think it's more like 34%. It seems unlikely that after spending 80 years chasing 0.5% improvements, that everybody missed an obvious 50%-80%.:horse:

3DFS should use their magic software to control and balance the wheels of a car in real-time, this would nearly double the output from the engine. >:D ... by keeping the cylinders in-phase.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:37:35 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #149 on: June 11, 2019, 10:07:24 am »
My intention is not to mislead, but to inform.

At about the same time you wrote that, on twitter you wrote:

"On the supply side, take a typical coal plant, which if outfitted with SDE will output almost double the energy while burning the same amount of coal. Same with natural gas, nuclear etc. because they are all steam."
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1138117446555095041

Most likely he do not see difference between Transmission & Distribution losses and energy conversion (heat) losses.

US is losing 5% of electric energy in the grid:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable

Quote
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory chart shows total energy lost.
https://youtu.be/G6dlvECRfcI?t=83
FYI typical coal plant is around 40% 34% efficient. No way you can improve it's conversion efficiency using fancy "digital electricity box". Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.

It is okay to not know something as is clearly the case here with data acquisition. SDE uses 26 channels with 6ns inputs is a fact no matter how hard you laugh. Your lack of understanding computing is the problem here. In reality you do not need .5GHz bandwidth, because you do not care about accuracy. SDE does require such frequency because it is the proper way to extract all of the information.
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #150 on: June 11, 2019, 10:09:07 am »
(i.e. the nanoseconds that you are all making fun of)

Your last 2 posts aren't bad, but don't worry, your nanoseconds and 24-bits are still nonsense,

My intention is not to mislead, but to inform.

At about the same time you wrote that, on twitter you wrote:

"On the supply side, take a typical coal plant, which if outfitted with SDE will output almost double the energy while burning the same amount of coal. Same with natural gas, nuclear etc. because they are all steam."
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1138117446555095041

"For renewables and energy storage, inverters replaced by SDE enabled inverters will result in anywhere from 20-40% more output."
 :palm:

These are facts. Again, your comprehension of how is irrelevant. Clearly my engineers have a much better understanding of electricity than you or ogden do. :-//
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #151 on: June 11, 2019, 10:34:19 am »
Quote
Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.


 :-DD This really is my favorite quote. In fact, congratulations, you have made it onto our "Wall of Edison," the place where we put quotes from self-pronoucing intelligentsia that are plain moronic.

I wonder if I can find any quotes about how nobody needs a microscope because it is pointless to see anything more than with the eye...  :-DD :-DD :-DD
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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #152 on: June 11, 2019, 10:41:38 am »
US is losing 5% of electric energy in the grid:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable

You must provide better argument than just baseless statement. Where's proof that grid efficiency numbers are false? What are actual numbers?
 

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #153 on: June 11, 2019, 10:41:55 am »
cdoerfler,
I think you are among the top runners for the price for "most arrogant person" on this forum.
There are so much BS in your so called "technical explanations" that it is hard to know where to start.
You are not doing yourself or your company any favors at the moment.
 
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Online ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #154 on: June 11, 2019, 10:43:34 am »
I wonder if I can find any quotes about how nobody needs a microscope because it is pointless to see anything more than with the eye...  :-DD :-DD :-DD

Here's your quote: Microscope is pointless in application where you need telescope or just simple ruler :)
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #155 on: June 11, 2019, 10:49:10 am »
I wonder if I can find any quotes about how nobody needs a microscope because it is pointless to see anything more than with the eye...  :-DD :-DD :-DD

Here's your quote: Microscope is pointless in application where you need telescope or just simple ruler :)

  :clap: :clap: :clap:

Electricity flows in real time. RMS does not measure in real time. Your microscope / ruler (wtf?) comparison is wholly inaccurate.

 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #156 on: June 11, 2019, 10:57:33 am »
US is losing 5% of electric energy in the grid:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable

You must provide better argument than just baseless statement. Where's proof that grid efficiency numbers are false? What are actual numbers?

I find it hard to believe that you do not understand my thesis.

These numbers are not based on PQA measurements. In fact, most of the grid is not measured by PQAs, rather the energy consumption and waste is calculated.

These numbers are calculated based on hundreds or thousands of different data sets with varying increments of time at different times and quality of measurements. So to blindly accept these numbers is silly to begin with.

Further, let's take one cycle of AC power. The waste that occurs in that single cycle is unknown to you using the 15 minute increment measurement. In fact, in your 15 minute measurement frequency, 3.34 million cycles have passed. That is a staggering amount of time where nothing is known about. 

Of course, lets take some "advanced" technology like synchrophasers, which measure 120 times a second....whoa that is fast, 2x per cycle. The same problem exists. What is happening between those two measurements. This is the fundamental problem with the shitty way electricity is measured today. It simply not adequate if accuracy is required. It is all guesses based on averages and integrals.

I have posted reports on this forum that show precisely this. No need to spam with repeats, just go find it and look.

Innovation would be easy if everybody could do it. 
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Online ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #157 on: June 11, 2019, 11:01:16 am »
Electricity flows in real time. RMS does not measure in real time.

EE quote of the year.  :-DD

Seems, due to specifics of your "business", you simply cannot change your mantra no matter what. Thank you for good laugh  :popcorn:
 
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Online ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #158 on: June 11, 2019, 11:05:23 am »
You must provide better argument than just baseless statement. Where's proof that grid efficiency numbers are false? What are actual numbers?
I have posted reports on this forum that show precisely this. No need to spam with repeats, just go find it and look.

You have not posted reports that reveal actual grid efficiency numbers. If you did - no need to spam indeed, provide just link to that post.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #159 on: June 11, 2019, 11:06:11 am »
Electricity flows in real time. RMS does not measure in real time.

EE quote of the year.  :-DD

Seems, due to specifics of your "business", you simply cannot change your mantra no matter what. Thank you for good laugh  :popcorn:

This is exactly the problem. We had an "expert in real time computing" come into our facility about a year ago. We demod the tech and walked him through everything. Afterward, we asked him to repeat back to us what we are doing, to be certain that we conveyed the information and he said, "Your tech is working faster than real time to inject..."

Faster than real time? That is a time machine?!

It occurred to us that this expert's understanding of real time was relegated to technological limitations of hardware, so his only way of explaining our technology is to say that it is faster than his experience. The same principle is in effect here.

Oh, perhaps fittingly, he is on the Wall of Edison as well.
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #160 on: June 11, 2019, 12:27:09 pm »
Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable

You always have this problem with time, measurement and RMS.

Nothing useful counts in an AC power measurement until at least 1 16.7ms cycle has passed. If you did measure power at 16.7ms intervals every result would be different as loads vary, so it's a good idea to take a average measurement of power over a few minutes and not just 1 cycle or less.

This doesn't have very much at all to do with the fact that the sampling of the actual waveforms will be at much smaller intervals than 1 cycle to record an accurate shape.

PF correcting does have to be done on intervals of much less than 1 mains cycle, but that doesn't have much to do with the power measurement which has to be an average over at least 1 mains cycle.

I wonder if I can find any quotes about how nobody needs a microscope because it is pointless to see anything more than with the eye...  :-DD :-DD :-DD

If you look at an ant under a microscope it might look like an elephant, but it's still an ant, it wouldn't be any heavier.
You're claiming it is an elephant, as in if you looked at a 1% loss much more closely and accurately it becomes a 50-80% loss.

Quote
Further, let's take one cycle of AC power. The waste that occurs in that single cycle is unknown to you using the 15 minute increment measurement. In fact, in your 15 minute measurement frequency, 3.34 million cycles have passed. That is a staggering amount of time where nothing is known about.

I make it a few less than that.

Quote
These are facts. Again, your comprehension of how is irrelevant. Clearly my engineers have a much better understanding of electricity than you or ogden do. :-//

I would hope so! Did your teams of engineers and research scientists see the fake claims you're posting all over the interwib and say, "We're having nothing at all to do with any of that".

« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 12:28:53 pm by StillTrying »
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #161 on: June 11, 2019, 12:49:43 pm »
Quote
Nothing useful counts in an AC power measurement until at least 1 16.7ms cycle has passed. If you did measure power at 16.7ms intervals every result would be different as loads vary, so it's a good idea to take a average measurement of power over a few minutes and not just 1 cycle or less.

In other words, precision is not important in your world.

The thing about correcting electricity in real time is that you need the precision data to do so. You don't have access to that sort of data so have not expanded your thinking to consider what is missing.

I on the other hand do have access to that data so recognize that your comment is completely wrong without you realizing it.

Averages do not cut it in power flow, sorry. This is a time tested reality for any science. The better the data quality, the better the results. SDE is the best data quality possible so we are able to see precisely the origins of the losses. Your averages leave you blind and therefore you are left to presume the rest. How engineery of you.

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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #162 on: June 11, 2019, 01:01:52 pm »
In other words, precision is not important in your world.
..
Averages do not cut it in power flow, sorry. This is a time tested reality for any science.

I thought I explained it quite well myself. :P
Are you suggesting they should produce GBs of data of power measurements in 6ns intervals, instead of just one number, how would they fit them all on the chart. :palm:

"You don't have access to that sort of data"

You're wasting your time with them types of replies, we often measure things much faster than you do, it's how we know your 6ns and 24 bits is nonsense.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 01:14:38 pm by StillTrying »
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Online ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #163 on: June 11, 2019, 01:26:07 pm »
Take nearly any modern AC power/energy IC used in electronic meters and you will see that even at 2500 samples/sec you can get better than 0.5% energy measurement accuracy. Using 4096 samples/sec CS5463 achieves 0.2%.  Also it shall be noted that electronic meters do not use averaged voltage and current RMS values. They measure momentary energy quantity for each voltage/current sample instead, then obviously accumulate (attach).

« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 01:28:11 pm by ogden »
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #164 on: June 11, 2019, 01:44:56 pm »
In other words, precision is not important in your world.
..
Averages do not cut it in power flow, sorry. This is a time tested reality for any science.

I thought I explained it quite well myself. :P
Are you suggesting they should produce GBs of data of power measurements in 6ns intervals, instead of just one number, how would they fit them all on the chart. :palm:

"You don't have access to that sort of data"

You're wasting your time with them types of replies, we often measure things much faster than you do, it's how we know your 6ns and 24 bits is nonsense.

That is either a deliberate falsehood or an ignorant statement.

You do not have the technological capability to convert analog to digital in 24bit resolution. SDE does.

Re: data, it is actually up to Terabytes of data processed a minute, but again, there is no need for that data to ever leave the machine, it is used for correction and most of it is erased within microseconds.
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #165 on: June 11, 2019, 01:45:59 pm »
Take nearly any modern AC power/energy IC used in electronic meters and you will see that even at 2500 samples/sec you can get better than 0.5% energy measurement accuracy. Using 4096 samples/sec CS5463 achieves 0.2%.  Also it shall be noted that electronic meters do not use averaged voltage and current RMS values. They measure momentary energy quantity for each voltage/current sample instead, then obviously accumulate (attach).



Great! SDE samples 4096x per half cycle. So..... you are pretty much making my point.
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #166 on: June 11, 2019, 02:07:45 pm »

You do not have the technological capability to convert analog to digital in 24bit resolution. SDE does.


 :-DD :-DD :-DD  :bullshit:

We have 32-bit ADCs. ::)

http://www.ti.com/product/ADS1263
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Online ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #167 on: June 11, 2019, 02:09:12 pm »
Great! SDE samples 4096x per half cycle. So..... you are pretty much making my point.

It is 4096*60*2 = 0.49 MSPS. Suddenly it is not nanosecond level, nor 6 nanoseconds level. It is not even microsecond level, it's 2 microseconds. Truly amazing how "fluid" are specs your product.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #168 on: June 11, 2019, 02:18:41 pm »
Great! SDE samples 4096x per half cycle. So..... you are pretty much making my point.

It is 4096*60*2 = 0.49 MSPS. Suddenly it is not nanosecond level, nor 6 nanoseconds level. It is not even microsecond level, it's 2 microseconds. Truly amazing how "fluid" are specs your product.

The fastest 24-bit ADCs I could find were 4MSPS or 250ns nowhere near 6ns.

6ns would be 166MSPS  :bullshit:
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 02:22:53 pm by Cyberdragon »
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #169 on: June 11, 2019, 02:55:18 pm »

You do not have the technological capability to convert analog to digital in 24bit resolution. SDE does.


 :-DD :-DD :-DD  :bullshit:

We have 32-bit ADCs. ::)

http://www.ti.com/product/ADS1263


Over how many channels?  :palm:
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #170 on: June 11, 2019, 03:32:45 pm »
Averages do not cut it in power flow, sorry.

You claim that the Livermore chart power measurement is not accurate because it's an average of power over 15 minutes.

"Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable"

You think their 15 minute increments should be just 6ns increments, how would that work ?

You'll soon see you'll have to average lots of the 6ns power measurements together for it to make any sense.

Do you have any idea what you're on about, nope!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:05:26 pm by StillTrying »
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #171 on: June 11, 2019, 03:45:01 pm »
Averages do not cut it in power flow, sorry.

You claim that the Livermore chart power measurement is not accurate because it's an average of power over 15 minutes.

"Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable"

You think their 15 minute increments should be just 6ns increments, how would that work ?

You'll soon see you'll have to average lots of the 6ns measurements together for it to make any sense.

Do you have any idea what you're on about, nope!

I have given you all the answers, you are down a rabbit hole not internalizing them

The key here is not to transfer all that data, but to analyze it in the device for the purpose of correcting the power. These devices are edge computers. It is an absurd idea to transfer all of that data, yes.
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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #172 on: June 11, 2019, 04:03:27 pm »
SDE samples 4096x per half cycle.

That's 2 * 4096 * 60 Hz = 491 kSamples/s.
How does that line up with your stated 6 ns sampling interval?!

I still struggle to see how either time resolution would provide useful information on mains current and voltage (rather than just heavy oversampling). But for starters, it would be good to at least get consistent numbers on what 3DFS does sample. Could you summarize that please? How many channels do you record/process, each of them at which sampling interval and bit depth? Thanks.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #173 on: June 11, 2019, 04:10:50 pm »
SDE samples 4096x per half cycle.

That's 2 * 4096 * 60 Hz = 491 kSamples/s.
How does that line up with your stated 6 ns sampling interval?!

I still struggle to see how either time resolution would provide useful information on mains current and voltage (rather than just heavy oversampling). But for starters, it would be good to at least get consistent numbers on what 3DFS does sample. Could you summarize that please? How many channels do you record/process, each of them at which sampling interval and bit depth? Thanks.

26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution

The sampling is automatic based on the need, the above is the average. If there is a lot of activity, the sampling ramps up, less activity, does not sample as much.

The goal of data acquisition is to build the most accurate model of the power flow, so the valuable data is extracted to build the model and the rest >99% is erased after a couple of microseconds.
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Online ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #174 on: June 11, 2019, 04:31:24 pm »
SDE samples 4096x per half cycle.

That's 2 * 4096 * 60 Hz = 491 kSamples/s.
How does that line up with your stated 6 ns sampling interval?!

26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution

1 MSPS? It's 1e6/120 = 8333.33 samples per half cycle. Just few posts ago you claimed 4096 samples per half cycle. Wow. You shall get at least consistency of your preaching right.

Seems, you have no clue how sampling interval relates to sampling frequency and bandwidth of sampled signal. Instead you call those who laugh about your nanoseconds where you have by three orders of magnitude slower sampling, moronic:

Quote
Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.
This really is my favorite quote. In fact, congratulations, you have made it onto our "Wall of Edison," the place where we put quotes from self-pronoucing intelligentsia that are plain moronic.

In return w/o regret I can say that you are fine example of Dunning Kruger effect.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 05:04:46 pm by ogden »
 

Offline Kean

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #175 on: June 11, 2019, 06:10:32 pm »
In fact, in your 15 minute measurement frequency, 3.34 million cycles have passed.

Nope.  15 minutes = 900 seconds. 900 s x 60 Hz = 54,000 full cycles.  You multiplied by 60 too many times.

26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution


Again, incorrect use of multiplication.

You are clearly not measuring 26 input channels with one 24 bit ADC at 6ns intervals (167 MSPS).  As mentioned above there is no 24-bit ADC that can handle that.  You may be doing low Mhz rates per parameter, but that wouldn't be 6ns intervals.  And you want to get the most of the 24-bits, so I wouldn't think you'd want to try multiplex the ADC inputs that fast.  Even at 4096 samples per half cycle (<0.5 MSPS) it is most likely using a separate ADC per measured parameter.

Your own white paper states:
Quote
The technology is sampling/deriving 26 parameters using current and voltage samples in 24 bit resolution at MHz sampling rates on each phase, neutral and ground, through a precision, software controlled oversampling methodology.

So with 3 phases you are really only measuring current and voltage on 4 or 5 circuits, which is 8 or 10 total measured parameters.  Most of your "26 channels" are actually derived values (presumably all the standard things that can be derived from V, I, & t).  Sure those extra derived parameters may be calculated and processed in real time, but that has nothing to do with your 24-bit sample rate.

In addition your white paper also states it is oversampling.  I hope you understand what that actually means, considering how much flack you are giving the power generation industry use of "guesses based on averages and integrals".

This kind of sales talk (obfuscation) you keep spouting is why the engineers here keep saying your statements and replies are nonsense.
 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #176 on: June 11, 2019, 06:23:47 pm »
How many channels do you record/process, each of them at which sampling interval and bit depth?

There's 3 current transformers and 3 current/voltage wires so about 6 ADC channels, there's nothing else to measure!

So we can safely ignore 3DFS's claims of 26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution.
They derive things such as frequency and then count it as a MHz 24 bit channel.

ED: The clip on CTs will probability be about 0.3% accuracy if they're good so about 8.5 bits. :)

 #Bonkers
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:16:59 pm by StillTrying »
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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #177 on: June 11, 2019, 06:32:29 pm »
Quote
Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.

This really is my favorite quote. In fact, congratulations, you have made it onto our "Wall of Edison," the place where we put quotes from self-pronoucing intelligentsia that are plain moronic.

Your increasingly aggressive and demeaning stance does not play well with the constant contradictions in even the few hard facts you provide.

Within a single day, you have claimed sampling intervals of 6ns, 1µs, and 2µs. We don't even have to get into the discussion whether there is value in any of these (they all seem much faster than necessary to achieve your purpose, and the 24 bit ADC resolution is even worse overkill).  As long as you cannot give us consistent information on even these trivial facts, your credibility is zero. And so is your standing when you choose to ridicule other forum members.
 
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Online ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #178 on: June 11, 2019, 07:41:43 pm »
We don't even have to get into the discussion whether there is value in any of these (they all seem much faster than necessary to achieve your purpose, and the 24 bit ADC resolution is even worse overkill).

Fast sample rate indeed seems like unnecessary overkill due to limited frequency content of AC mains current/voltage "signal", even when heavily distorted. I can't say the same about 24 bit ADC. Meters shall meet their accuracy in wide dynamic range. Think of TV in standby consuming 1W, then electric stove consuming 10KW. Consumption of both shall be measured precisely, with specified accuracy. As an example here's ADC designed for energy meters, 24bits, max 32KSPS: http://www.ti.com/product/ADS131M04
 

Offline Dubbie

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3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #179 on: June 11, 2019, 07:50:31 pm »
This guy reminds me of the Steorn guys.
Incredible arrogance mixed with incredible ignorance. Loads of talk, loads of reasons why they can’t explain crucial points of their claims.

They easily fool gullible journalists and non technical management types who climb on board with “I think these guys are real guys!” Then after years of failures to demonstrate their core claim, they quietly go under and their investors shuffle away with red faces and an extreme reluctance to talk about “that time when they lost their money investing in a perpetual motion machine.”

This is just a perpetual motion machine in different makeup.

(Edit) The fact that this moron tries to keep selling this crap in technical forums probably means that he has drunk the kool-aid and is a full blown believer himself. Usually the conman avoids those qualified to call out his bullshit.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:53:58 pm by Dubbie »
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #180 on: June 11, 2019, 08:04:40 pm »
How many channels do you record/process, each of them at which sampling interval and bit depth?

There's 3 current transformers and 3 current/voltage wires so about 6 ADC channels, there's nothing else to measure!

So we can safely ignore 3DFS's claims of 26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution.
They derive things such as frequency and then count it as a MHz 24 bit channel.

ED: The clip on CTs will probability be about 0.3% accuracy if they're good so about 8.5 bits. :)

 #Bonkers

Wow, based on the uptick in engineering speak, it appears you all feel like you are circling for the kill, except Might I remind you that we are acquiring error free data, so while yes it is only measuring current and voltage, the error free data and calculations allow SDE to receive 24 bit resolution on each of the parameters (i.e. reactive power, phase angle, harmonics, etc.).

Your suggestion that we are using a 24 bit ADC chip is also based on the presumption that AD conversion is separate from the data processing, when in fact it is not, it is all done simultaneously on 26 channels for individual parameters. All 26 channels are measured individually on each phase, neutral and ground, not all together. 
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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #181 on: June 11, 2019, 08:09:08 pm »
Fast sample rate indeed seems like unnecessary overkill due to limited frequency content of AC mains current/voltage "signal", even when heavily distorted. I can't say the same about 24 bit ADC. Meters shall meet their accuracy in wide dynamic range. Think of TV in standby consuming 1W, then electric stove consuming 10KW. Consumption of both shall be measured precisely, with specified accuracy.

No, I don't think you need a wide dynamic range for power factor correction and load balancing. If only 1W of standby power is drawn from my 10kW circuit, power factor corrections etc. just don't matter at all.

Quote
As an example here's ADC designed for energy meters, 24bits, max 32KSPS: http://www.ti.com/product/ADS131M04

If you want accurate total energy, integrating precisely over a wide range of currents may be more relevant. 7 digits still seems excessive?

Note the 32 kHz sampling rate, btw. That's a far cry from even the slowest rate cdoerfler has claimed (1 MHz). I would venture a bet that 3DFS sample at much less than 24 bits, and then calculate various values at 24 bit resolution. Maybe an 8 bit ADC at 1 MHz, from which some gliding averages and secondary values are calculated at 24 bits? That's a cheap way to throw up some smoke and mirrors and claim "24 bit, 1 MHz".
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #182 on: June 11, 2019, 08:15:14 pm »
Might I remind you that we are acquiring error free data, so while yes it is only measuring current and voltage, the error free data and calculations allow SDE to receive 24 bit resolution on each of the parameters (i.e. reactive power, phase angle, harmonics, etc.).

Your suggestion that we are using a 24 bit ADC chip is also based on the presumption that AD conversion is separate from the data processing, when in fact it is not, it is all done simultaneously on 26 channels for individual parameters. All 26 channels are measured individually on each phase, neutral and ground, not all together.

 
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Online ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #183 on: June 11, 2019, 08:27:42 pm »
No, I don't think you need a wide dynamic range for power factor correction and load balancing. If only 1W of standby power is drawn from my 10kW circuit, power factor corrections etc. just don't matter at all.

Perhaps you missed other functions of the product. Quote: "Digital Multiparametric Measurement of Electricity to provide visibility with a new layer of electricity data and analytics".

Quote
If you want accurate total energy, integrating precisely over a wide range of currents may be more relevant. 7 digits still seems excessive?

As it appears - no. In addition to 24bits resolution, that "energy-aimed" ADC have PGA with gains 1, 2, 4 ... up to 128. If interested - TI have some appnotes where they proivide loads of useful information including reasoning behind their design decisions.

[edit] Hardly any 24bit ADC have 24bit ENOB. Usually when I hear "24 bit ADC", I think "around 21 useful bits, 22 bits at best".

Quote
Note the 32 kHz sampling rate, btw. That's a far cry from even the slowest rate cdoerfler has claimed (1 MHz).

Right. Agreed. At 32Khz that (delta-sigma) ADC have reduced resolution. Nominal, design target sample rate is 4KSPS.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 08:33:26 pm by ogden »
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #184 on: June 11, 2019, 08:32:57 pm »
Perhaps you missed other functions of the product. Quote: "Digital Multiparametric Measurement of Electricity to provide visibility with a new layer of electricity data and analytics".

Ahh, right. "A new layer of analytics" can never have enough ADC resolution.  :)
I want my electricity measured in True Color and Dolby THC!
 

Offline Kean

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #185 on: June 11, 2019, 08:48:20 pm »
Might I remind you that we are acquiring error free data

Can you please explain what you mean by "error free data"?

Maybe we misunderstand what you mean by it.  As explained previously, there is no such thing as "error free" when measuring physical phenomenon (apart from some rather exceptional circumstances).  There is calibration error, quantisation error, and noise.  Errors will then accumulate in any derived parameters.  Read up on ENOB as mentioned by ogden.

"Garbage in, garbage out" as they say.

Quote
so while yes it is only measuring current and voltage, the error free data and calculations allow SDE to receive 24 bit resolution on each of the parameters (i.e. reactive power, phase angle, harmonics, etc.).

Yeah, if you have 24-bit inputs then unless you do your math wrong you can retain 24-bit (math)* resolution (more or less) with the derived parameters.

Quote
Your suggestion that we are using a 24 bit ADC chip is also based on the presumption that AD conversion is separate from the data processing, when in fact it is not, it is all done simultaneously on 26 channels for individual parameters. All 26 channels are measured individually on each phase, neutral and ground, not all together.

Um, what?

It was you stating that you're doing 24-bit sampling at MHz rates (it is also in your white paper).

We're happy for you to correct us if we have assumed something wrong, but be professional and give us some facts if you would like to get treated professionally in return.

OK, so what I understand from this response is that you sample the 2 parameters on all circuits in parallel with multiple ADCs, and I assume you then do the calculations for derived parameters "simultaneously" with an FPGA.

As you state there are only two parameters you can actually measure per phase/neutral/ground circuit - i.e. voltage and current.  The rest of your 26 derived parameters are going to be calculated from those plus elapsed time.

Just because you may be collecting 26 parameters at a high rate doesn't mean you're sampling at the speed you have constantly implied.

You have demonstrated with your own words that the 6ns sampling interval was nonsense all along.

* edited to add "(math)" - rather unlikely you can calculate derived parameters like PF, phase angle, etc to actual 24 bit resolution (i.e 6+ digits!).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 08:55:55 pm by Kean »
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #186 on: June 12, 2019, 10:05:17 am »
Quote
Can you please explain what you mean by "error free data"?

Maybe we misunderstand what you mean by it.  As explained previously, there is no such thing as "error free" when measuring physical phenomenon (apart from some rather exceptional circumstances).  There is calibration error, quantisation error, and noise.  Errors will then accumulate in any derived parameters.  Read up on ENOB as mentioned by ogden.

"Garbage in, garbage out" as they say.

Yes there is error upon data acquisition, however the intelligent sensing approach uses the process of oversampling to acquire way more data than is needed and instantly perform all of the data error processing (i.e. conversion, quantization, jitter, noise, calibration etc.) within 4 ns to distill to the precise, error free data point so that the 24bits is a true 24 bits for each parameter on each channel, all perfectly synchronized together.

This is called Real-Time modeling of electricity. It is why there is never a point in power flow where the exact data is not known. It is also why the methods of measurement that you are all espousing is comically inappropriate with respect to accuracy.
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Offline Kean

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #187 on: June 12, 2019, 11:18:45 am »
Yes there is error upon data acquisition, however the intelligent sensing approach uses the process of oversampling to acquire way more data than is needed

So it uses oversampling and averaging to filter the input.  Whoop-de-doo!
That is still not "error free", it is just a technique to try improve the SNR.

I thought you said yesterday that using averaging produces "guesses".   :-DD

Quote
and instantly perform all of the data error processing (i.e. conversion, quantization, jitter, noise, calibration etc.) within 4 ns to distill to the precise, error free data point so that the 24bits is a true 24 bits for each parameter on each channel, all perfectly synchronized together.

Sorry, but parroting the same marketing nonsense over and over without any substance behind it doesn't make it true.   :blah:

I tried to engage, but it is clear you just can't help yourself.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #188 on: June 12, 2019, 11:23:52 am »
Yes there is error upon data acquisition, however the intelligent sensing approach uses the process of oversampling to acquire way more data than is needed

So it uses oversampling and averaging to filter the input.  Whoop-de-doo!
That is still not "error free", it is just a technique to try improve the SNR.

I thought you said yesterday that using averaging produces "guesses".   :-DD

Quote
and instantly perform all of the data error processing (i.e. conversion, quantization, jitter, noise, calibration etc.) within 4 ns to distill to the precise, error free data point so that the 24bits is a true 24 bits for each parameter on each channel, all perfectly synchronized together.

Sorry, but parroting the same marketing nonsense over and over without any substance behind it doesn't make it true.   :blah:

I tried to engage, but it is clear you just can't help yourself.

You are a brilliant reader.

I never said averages, you did.

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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #189 on: June 12, 2019, 11:46:50 am »
Chris, what I would really love to understand is why you keep posting here. You have nothing lose here, but you can't win with this audience either.

Are you using this forum as your practice ground, trying out various lines and approaches with a difficult crowd? (Hint: The aggressive and demeaning angle is not so effective...) Do you just want to let off some steam, which you can't do in front of potential customers or investors? Or does this feel like fun? (How?)

I'm truly puzzled.
 

Online ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #190 on: June 12, 2019, 12:44:52 pm »
Are you using this forum as your practice ground, trying out various lines and approaches with a difficult crowd?

Let me guess... He is using this forum because it keeps popping-up in internet search results. If skeptics are uncontested, then general public may draw unfortunate conclusions. He has to defend product by all means. This is nothing new here, example: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/bullshit-texzon-wireless-power/
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 01:01:21 pm by ogden »
 

Online newbrain

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #191 on: June 12, 2019, 02:59:45 pm »
I never said averages, you did.
Oversampling

But, maybe, this is more relevant.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 03:01:50 pm by newbrain »
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #192 on: June 12, 2019, 03:05:33 pm »
Are you using this forum as your practice ground, trying out various lines and approaches with a difficult crowd?

Let me guess... He is using this forum because it keeps popping-up in internet search results. If skeptics are uncontested, then general public may draw unfortunate conclusions. He has to defend product by all means. This is nothing new here, example: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/bullshit-texzon-wireless-power/

All posting here will do is make it worse. We are scambusters (aka "qualified personel" or real engineers). And Dave isn't the only Youtuber here should we choose to video debunk (which would get a ton of search hits). The only thing scams should do when they end up in this section is run and hide.

Warning! Warning! Bullshit level exceeding 80%! :bullshit: *klaxon*
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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #193 on: June 12, 2019, 06:37:36 pm »
After reading through this entire thread of word salad from 3DFS, all that comes to mind is Bea Arthur as the Roman unemployment clerk in History of the World Pt I when she distilled Comicus' profession (Stand Up Philosopher) into a somewhat more 'raw' descriptive term...

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #194 on: June 14, 2019, 03:54:36 pm »
"After reading through this entire thread of word salad"

I've read some of it again for the giggles, I'm hungry for some more salad. >:D
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Offline Yansi

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #195 on: June 14, 2019, 04:04:40 pm »
Unfortunately, I do not like salad, so I vote for locking this thread and banning the troll.

Instead of helping others, users waste time and effort here.
 

Online ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #196 on: June 14, 2019, 04:21:05 pm »
Unfortunately, I do not like salad, so I vote for locking this thread and banning the troll.

No. Truth shall be told so people who are not knowledgeable enough get chances to make their own decisions about this "product".

« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 04:23:38 pm by ogden »
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #197 on: June 14, 2019, 04:56:10 pm »
People not knowledgeable enough will not likely make a decision based on this thread, just because it is full of this salad.
 

Online ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #198 on: June 14, 2019, 07:19:07 pm »
People not knowledgeable enough will not likely make a decision based on this thread, just because it is full of this salad.

Maybe. Whatever. Please do not end this fun by banning him, ok?
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #199 on: June 14, 2019, 08:06:16 pm »
"After reading through this entire thread of word salad"

I've read some of it again for the giggles, I'm hungry for some more salad. >:D

Salad? Nah, his posts are a technobabble smoothie. :blah: Even AvE is easier to comprehend.
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Offline racemaniac

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #200 on: June 17, 2019, 11:54:55 am »
Wow, based on the uptick in engineering speak, it appears you all feel like you are circling for the kill, except Might I remind you that we are acquiring error free data, so while yes it is only measuring current and voltage, the error free data and calculations allow SDE to receive 24 bit resolution on each of the parameters (i.e. reactive power, phase angle, harmonics, etc.).
Ooh, finally one i can respond on XD. Sorry, but having studied numerical mathematics that handles subjects like this, it's not because your input data has a certain accuracy, that your result will have the same accuracy. How errors propagate through calculations is very interesting, you should read up on it :).
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #201 on: June 20, 2019, 01:56:19 pm »
After telling every EE on the planet that they don't understand electricity, 3DFS try plugging their real time battery chemistry modeling instead, and that doesn't go well either. :palm:
twitter.com/rshandross/status/1141669369531052033
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #202 on: June 20, 2019, 02:18:44 pm »
After telling every EE on the planet that they don't understand electricity, 3DFS try plugging their real time battery chemistry modeling instead, and that doesn't go well either. :palm:
twitter.com/rshandross/status/1141669369531052033

 :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD

Wow!  They know so much that is hidden.  They can't explain it, though, because...  ...secrets.

 ::) ::)

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #203 on: June 22, 2019, 04:16:48 pm »
This is probably just a twitter text thing rather than a bonkers claim, but I found it amusing.

Someone asks:
"I'm not a power guy, but think a 100 mile high voltage power transmission line has milliseconds of propagation delay."

Seems a simple enough question, but 3DFS answer:

"Altitude is irrelevant."
 :-DD
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #204 on: July 01, 2019, 04:31:43 pm »
3DFS's entry to the May NATO EMP protection competition, if anyone's really bored. All the usual nonsense is there!
1st mention is in Reply #12.

http://aee-seva.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Gaffney-3DFS-NATO-Innovation-Hub-Challenge-Expanded-Abstract.pdf
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 04:33:33 pm by StillTrying »
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #205 on: July 01, 2019, 08:51:41 pm »
That's gonna be hilarious! Their shit's gonna get blown to bits if they do any heavy surge testing! :-DD :-BROKE
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #206 on: July 01, 2019, 09:37:17 pm »
That's gonna be hilarious! Their shit's gonna get blown to bits if they do any heavy surge testing! :-DD :-BROKE

The competition is over. https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/3dfss-vectorq-digital-electricity-technology/msg2463483/#msg2463483

They didn't win which is lucky, because the winner has to demonstrate it 'working', so it didn't get blown to bits.
How did they manage to make the final 7, perhaps the NATO judges just had a strange sense of humour. :horse:


While 3DFS have for years been claiming that every uA in the grid must be digitally measured, modeled and software controlled:

Senate passes cybersecurity bill to decrease grid digitization, move toward manual control
The Securing Energy Infrastructure Act (SEIA) establishes a two-year pilot program to identify new classes of security vulnerabilities and to research and test solutions, including "analog and nondigital control systems."
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/senate-passes-cybersecurity-bill-to-decrease-grid-digitization-move-toward/557959/
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 02:29:00 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #207 on: August 09, 2019, 12:55:35 am »
These lot seem to have been quiet since the last flurry in this thread, I don't think they've mentioned the VQ2 since!

What would happen if you actually tried to buy a VQ2.
https://twitter.com/connor_daren/status/1153834825481981952

They're now moving into rocket science and suggesting non-combustible rocket fuel.
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1156757447836651525
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1157649334994919425
 #Bonkers
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 12:57:55 am by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #208 on: August 14, 2019, 10:46:49 pm »
Your jealousy is palpable  :-DD
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #209 on: August 14, 2019, 11:00:38 pm »
They're now moving into rocket science and suggesting non-combustible rocket fuel.

Hmm, does that mean they suggest software-defined fuel instead? :-DD
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #210 on: August 14, 2019, 11:03:00 pm »
nope, compressed air and electricity.
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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #211 on: August 14, 2019, 11:04:45 pm »
...aaaaaand he's back to add ......nothing whatsoever.   :popcorn:

To reiterate the question tweeted by Darren Connor in Australia that appears to have gone unanswered, what countries DO you currently sell in?   :-//

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #212 on: August 14, 2019, 11:07:38 pm »
...aaaaaand he's back to add ......nothing whatsoever.   :popcorn:

To reiterate the question tweeted by Darren Connor in Australia that appears to have gone unanswered, what countries DO you currently sell in?   :-//

-Pat

I spoke multiple times to Mr. Connor. We are presently only selling in the U.S.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Online Marco

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #213 on: August 14, 2019, 11:38:15 pm »
Sorry for being late to the party, but what's so controversial about all this except the buzzword marketing?

Storing 0.6 KJ for active PFC seems to fit in the box fine. Crowbarring a surge into a water cooled resistor so your MOVs only have to absorb a small amount of a surge doesn't really seem out of the realm of possibility either. Water can absorb a lot more energy than a MOV without breaking.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #214 on: August 15, 2019, 12:09:04 am »
Sorry for being late to the party, but what's so controversial about all this except the buzzword marketing?

Storing 0.6 KJ for active PFC seems to fit in the box fine. Crowbarring a surge into a water cooled resistor so your MOVs only have to absorb a small amount of a surge doesn't really seem out of the realm of possibility either. Water can absorb a lot more energy than a MOV without breaking.

Please read the entire thread...then you'll understand the pure lunacy.
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #215 on: August 15, 2019, 12:12:24 am »
Your jealousy is palpable  :-DD

The stench of your incompetance has made the engineering community vomit. :-DD
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #216 on: August 15, 2019, 06:28:31 am »
I spoke multiple times to Mr. Connor. We are presently only selling in the U.S.

Mr. Connor's solar inverter is 1ph.
I'd still like to know how a solar inverter's output voltage and current can be out of phase.

After our posts on AC power measurement starting:  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/3dfss-vectorq-digital-electricity-technology/msg2477325/#msg2477325

your're still complaining about the 15 min. AC power measurement by LLNL.
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1161241721881223172
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1161254846382727168

So how long should the LLNL's AC power measurement be? 6ns? :)
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #217 on: August 15, 2019, 06:32:58 am »

Mr. Connor's solar inverter is 1ph.
I'd still like to know how a solar inverter's output voltage and current can be out of phase.



Wait...WTF?
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #218 on: August 15, 2019, 07:05:52 am »
Wait...WTF?

Which bit?
From the end of Reply #98: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/3dfss-vectorq-digital-electricity-technology/msg2464896/#msg2464896

cd:
"If a home has solar and an EV, the case becomes very clear though as it improves the output of the solar and charging times and rates of the ev charger"

me:
"You've mentioned the correction of the output power of solar and generators, for these devices does the VectorQ2 have to be connected backwards, think about it!"

Instead of thinking about it he said that the power correction is bi-directional, it only corrects the 3ph balance and PF as seen by the supply side, some of their claims are based on it actually fixing load's PF.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #219 on: August 15, 2019, 10:14:07 am »
Sorry for being late to the party, but what's so controversial about all this except the buzzword marketing?

Storing 0.6 KJ for active PFC seems to fit in the box fine. Crowbarring a surge into a water cooled resistor so your MOVs only have to absorb a small amount of a surge doesn't really seem out of the realm of possibility either. Water can absorb a lot more energy than a MOV without breaking.

You missed the point of this thread. It is purely for my entertainment.

StillTrying is dying of envy from the now dozen or so products that we are selling and he whips the rest of the "thought leaders" on this thread into conclusively determining that some words on a troll forum outweigh actual science.

-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #220 on: August 15, 2019, 03:27:38 pm »
Wait...WTF?

Which bit?


Err the bit I posted where you asked how a solar inverter's output voltage and current can be out of phase. That bit.

I do realise that the VectorQ is complete bullshit but combating it with crap as above isn't a great look.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #221 on: August 15, 2019, 08:49:09 pm »
Sorry for being late to the party, but what's so controversial about all this except the buzzword marketing?

Storing 0.6 KJ for active PFC seems to fit in the box fine. Crowbarring a surge into a water cooled resistor so your MOVs only have to absorb a small amount of a surge doesn't really seem out of the realm of possibility either. Water can absorb a lot more energy than a MOV without breaking.

You missed the point of this thread. It is purely for my entertainment.

StillTrying is dying of envy from the now dozen or so products that we are selling and he whips the rest of the "thought leaders" on this thread into conclusively determining that some words on a troll forum outweigh actual science.

We have over 51K members who know actual science over your crap which is BS even on paper let alone practice. You sound exactly like a conspiracy theorist free-energy nut. Believing that everyone is against you because "ooo big brother/big buisiness conspiracy" instead of the fact that you are simply WRONG! :palm: Selling BS to gullible people (aka a scam) is not something to boast. When your crap fails to surge protect properly because it is snake oil it could cause tremendous damage leading to a hefty lawsuit. ;D
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Online ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #222 on: August 15, 2019, 09:13:03 pm »
Selling BS to gullible people (aka a scam) is not something to boast.

He knows that very well, just can't admit in public for obvious reasons.

Quote
When your crap fails to surge protect properly because it is snake oil it could cause tremendous damage leading to a hefty lawsuit. ;D

Rest assured - actual documentation and purchase contract of "product" (if any) most likely is bullet-proof from legal point of view. BTW product could be some rebranded OEM igbt phase balancer with self-made digital electricity nanosecond-level woo-woo software
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #223 on: August 15, 2019, 11:33:54 pm »
You guys are just being jealous. Apparently.

Must be some kind of software-defined jealousy.
 

Online ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #224 on: August 15, 2019, 11:58:51 pm »
You guys are just being jealous. Apparently.

Must be some kind of software-defined jealousy.

How do you know? Before we draw premature conclusions, it must be measured using 24 bit error free data and calculated accordingly.
 

Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #225 on: August 16, 2019, 12:07:44 am »
The effective number of jealousy bits.
 ;D
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #226 on: August 16, 2019, 12:14:09 am »
Selling BS to gullible people (aka a scam) is not something to boast.

He knows that very well, just can't admit in public for obvious reasons.

Quote
When your crap fails to surge protect properly because it is snake oil it could cause tremendous damage leading to a hefty lawsuit. ;D

Rest assured - actual documentation and purchase contract of "product" (if any) most likely is bullet-proof from legal point of view. BTW product could be some rebranded OEM igbt phase balancer with self-made digital electricity nanosecond-level woo-woo software

Disclamer: This product is not gauranteed to stop all surges, save any money, or prevent all electrical disturbance. Quantum energy super linear graphine batteries not included. Products sold seperately. This print may require an optical magnification device to read.

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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #227 on: August 16, 2019, 12:19:51 am »
Err the bit I posted where you asked how a solar inverter's output voltage and current can be out of phase. That bit.

3DFS claim that power quality is very bad at generation many times, I haven't found a solar inverter one yet but this one hints at inverters being less than 60% efficient unless fixed.
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1118687111237066752

and this:
"On the supply side, take a typical coal plant, which if outfitted with SDE will output almost double the energy while burning the same amount of coal. Same with natural gas, nuclear etc. because they are all steam."

"For renewables and energy storage, inverters replaced by SDE enabled inverters will result in anywhere from 20-40% more output."
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1138117446555095041

"It is established science that the power factor, harmonics and phase balancing are the worst at generation."
https://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=12204964&cid=56776034

Quote
I do realise that the VectorQ is complete bullshit

I think it really is useful for a high power 3ph user with constantly changing balance and PF loads, but not much else.

I try to avoid claims more than about 3 months old because even 3DFS are allowed to change their mind, but I've just had a look at one of their white papers to see how they explain away it causing Asynchronous Motors to Operate Synchronously, - another one of my favorites!

This white paper reviews how Software-Defined Electricity delivers digitally perfect power to every load in a power network at all times, preventing any fluctuation including transients from affecting load performance

It's a shunt voltage regulator on a 3ph supply with complete surge protection. :)

VI. Expected Results from Software-Defined Electricity™
    Load Performance and Work Output Improvement
    Example 1: Reduced Data Packet Loss in Transmission
    Example 2: Reduction of Power Supply Temperature
    Example 3: Asynchronous Motors Operate Synchronously
    Example 4: Improving Audio Recordings/Live Performances
    Example 5: RF Signal Propagation Improvement
    Example 6: Increase the Detectable Distance of RADAR
    Generator Performance and Output Improvements
    UPS, Battery Performance and Output Improvements
    Power Network Stability
    Automatic Impedance Matching
    Maintaining Separation of Power Network from Data Network
    Sustainable Surge Protection
    Stacked Layers of Energy Savings
    1st Layer - Direct Savings from Loss Prevention
    2nd - Reduced Environmental Conditioning
    3rd - Optimized Work Output Per Period of Time
    4th - Expert System in the Power Network
    Utility Penalty Reduction/Elimination
    Demand Charges
    Power Quality Related Utility Charges
    New Layer of Data
    Error Free Digital Data
    Non-Intrusive Load Monitoring
    Seamless Platform Integration Via API
    Predictive Analytics
https://3dfs.com/download/financial-benefits-of-protecting-power-networks-with-software-defined-electricity

CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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    • 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity
Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #228 on: August 16, 2019, 12:59:54 am »
Haven't you already suggested that multiple times before?

I have explained many times what it is and its function. There is simply too much intelligence in this forum to cram any more knowledge in. It's like that Simpsons episode where Mr. Burns has every disease.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #229 on: August 16, 2019, 01:24:23 am »
Haven't you already suggested that multiple times before?

No, I think it's in a link on the other thread on here but I'm not going to search.

You claim the LLNL's AC power measurement is inaccurate because it's measured over a 15 min. time interval.
What AC power measurement time period would you recommend to give a more accurate result?
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Online james_s

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #230 on: August 16, 2019, 06:37:32 am »
Haven't these threads run their course by now? Can we just lock the threads and ban this goober as is typically done with people pushing pseudoscience and other scams?