3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?

[StillTrying]

Software Defined Electricity, It's the future!
Yeah right!

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/200/


I can't see the option now, but I definitely allowed the changing of your vote / your mind!

[madires]

I won't vote because I still don't know what 3DFS's VectorQ is actually doing and how. Anyway, the thread linked is a marketing disaster. We've asked several times for details but only got buzzwords and insults. And the company's web page isn't helpful either. When I consider just the marketing I'd have to assume it's a scam.

[CJay]

My opinion, if they have to resort to being beligerant and roll out the buzzwords to a bunch of engineers, is 'scam'

[Cerebus]

3DFS Technology maintains power factor at unity, harmonics below 2% and automatically balances phases in power networks at all times no matter the load profile or energy consumption patterns.

Prove it!

And I don't mean another of your buzzword loaded paragraphs filled with insults at your interlocutors. I mean, either some solid, cogent, complete technical explanation of how your systems achieve your claims (i.e no more of this 'We do it by delivering microamps per microsecond in real time' tosh but a properly argued white paper or similar, you must have one somewhere) OR details of one or more reference customers who are prepared to publicly stand up and say it works.

If you cannot, or will not, offer one of those two then the only reasonable conclusion is that you're either deluded, or deliberately pedalling rubbish and we can safely ignore you, your extraordinary claims, and tell anyone who asks that they ought to avoid your products like the plague on the grounds that you can't or won't properly explain or defend them.

[MrMobodies]

Maybe I am misunderstanding it but isn't that what regulators and other control circuitry is for?

To me it sounds related to what already happens with data transmission over mains like with powerline adaptors.

[ebastler]

@cdoerfler: Chris, two suggestions for you:

(a) I think it is really time that you disclose your affiliation with 3DFS in your forum identity. Easy to do in the forum software, via either the "personal text" or the "signature" in your foum profile.

(b) Don't you have a technical person on the 3DFS team who could represent your company on this forum, and give some real technical explanations? Forgive me, but a bachelor in psychology does not cut it around here, especially as it shows in your posts.

[ebastler]

Thanks for adding the signature, Chris -- that's a step in the right direction.

[lokiiie]

How does the vectorq work and how it harmonize the system?

[StillTrying]

Lightning protection done in software, what could possibly go wrong.

https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1127560806793609216

[CJay]

Lightning protection done in software, what could possibly go wrong.

https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1127560806793609216

An IoT app, it queries the local weather service then uses bollockchain to leverage synergistic AI technologies and achieves a lightning prediction rate in the high teens percentile, sometimes even before it gets blown to pieces by a direct strike. 

[StillTrying]

An IoT app, it queries the local weather service then uses bollockchain

Don't be giving them any more ideas.

Yep, no lightning strike will be able to sneak passed that.
They'll probably win an award.

img from www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/25/

[Cyberdragon]

How does the vectorq work and how it harmonize the system?

The VectorQ Series is installed in parallel at the panel level. It oversamples the source and load side to provide the analytics that informs the power electronics which is correcting for reactive power, harmonics and phase imbalance in real time as the power flows, performing corrections every microsecond.

More buzzwankery with no substance.

3DFS Technology maintains power factor at unity, harmonics below 2% and automatically balances phases in power networks at all times no matter the load profile or energy consumption patterns.

Prove it!

And I don't mean another of your buzzword loaded paragraphs filled with insults at your interlocutors. I mean, either some solid, cogent, complete technical explanation of how your systems achieve your claims (i.e no more of this 'We do it by delivering microamps per microsecond in real time' tosh but a properly argued white paper or similar, you must have one somewhere) OR details of one or more reference customers who are prepared to publicly stand up and say it works.

If you cannot, or will not, offer one of those two then the only reasonable conclusion is that you're either deluded, or deliberately pedalling rubbish and we can safely ignore you, your extraordinary claims, and tell anyone who asks that they ought to avoid your products like the plague on the grounds that you can't or won't properly explain or defend them.

And how the hell is that box gonna protect against surges? To do that it either has to clamp or have a disconnect in series. That thing is entirely wired in parrallel. So even if it clamps it would short the supply using any normal switching elements (IE ones that can be computer controlled). Also, reaction and switching times play a factor in surge arresting. MOVs, diodes, lightning arrestors exc all work extremely fast. If you throw a computer and switching elements in it, you are adding delayed reaction to the point it would already be too late and damage would occur. "oh look, a sur-" *BANG*  (not to mention the computer would have to protect it's own supply, but with what, traditional elements? ) The only award that would earn is the one for the person that can identify it's remains after a surge.

[CJay]

In all seriousness, I assume the wires entering the box on the upper right are the utility supply and the wires leaving upper left are to the premises.

So that leaves half a dozen or so wires from the magic box, where's the active element, is it in the box you built or is it in the main panel being controlled by your box?

[Gregg]

In all seriousness, I assume the wires entering the box on the upper right are the utility supply and the wires leaving upper left are to the premises.

So that leaves half a dozen or so wires from the magic box, where's the active element, is it in the box you built or is it in the main panel being controlled by your box?

For those not familiar with US wiring  , I have annotated the picture
I couldn't help myself questioning some of what is or isn't there. 
Another thing I wonder about is Cdofler stating that the device is connected via fuses when the picture clearly shows a 3 pole breaker; wouldn't a power engineer know the difference?

[Cyberdragon]

There is no need to dig on whether I am a power engineer, this forum has had many a sleuth determine that I am not. Yes, the 3 pole breaker is the connection, pardon my language.

Right there you have just admitted you don't know jack yet you've been trying to defend this rubbish to real engineers.

It has every type of cooling huh? First of all, water cooling requires a radiator which usually requires fans to cool it unless it's significantly large (which wouldn't leave much room). Oil cooled? So it's filled with mineral oil? Also, even if the fans only come on for a a surge arrest that seems like an an aweful lot of cooling for something that consumes 70W ( less than the human body at about 100W when resting).

Also we've grilled to death already how it's impossible to use tiny amounts of power to correct large amounts, that's basic thermodynamics.

Backfeeding breakers is also iffy, only certain types allow it. Drawing power from them and backfeeding them is even more iffy. Due to the above, the backfed power, or clamping a surge might trip the breaker. You have succeeded in making a self defeating device that will shut off it's own connection when it tries to surge protect.

[Cyberdragon]

No, they are not FACTS at this point, you are spouting buzzwords and wankery, not explaining anything in actual QUANTIFIABLE muasurements in terms of things like patent papers, charts/graphs, actual verifiable figures. All you are doing is making CLAIMS, not backing them up, which is what we've BEEN ASKING. You have shown 0 PROOF that your device does what you say it does, and you say you are not an engineer on their team so how does that qualify you to explain anything? I could do the same thing and claim I have a cold fusion generator that harnesses zero point energy and the power of lunar phases.

How about you open that blue box and take high res photos of the inside...because if you look at the poll on top, most of us think it's full of crap. Prove us wrong and you'll earn your rep back.

[ebastler]

I am explaining how it works.

No, you really aren't. You are stating what it allegedly does.

What this audience is looking for are real explanations of what the components are, what the circuit looks like (at least a block diagram), and what the algorithms do (again, a high-level technical summary). There must be a way of conveying that with technical credibility without giving away any trade secrets. Would you have a peer-reviewed scientific paper or a key patent which explains the principles and which you could share?

[newbrain]

You know nothing about this tech. Literally nothing, not to mention you are wrong with everything you say.

Possibly.
You are not helping in any way, though.

[ebastler]

The granted patent https://3dfs.com/news/3dfs-announces-stake-patent-issued/11/2015

US 9,178,35, "Multipurpose, universal converter...".  The patent essentially seems to describe a combination of UPS, various frequency converters, and power factor correction, where the PFC is done via a DSP. Maybe tossing all these things into one device is new. I cannot recognize (understand?) the inventive benefits of the combination. And specifically I cannot see any hint why one should use a DSP rather than conventional power factor correction.

The algorithm works like this, "The power is spoiled, I'll correct it."
We have an entire section at techtalk.3dfs.com for this stuff.

Well, yes. But the "techtalk" discusses the technology on this level:

Digital Measurement of Electricity 3DFS Technology leverages Task Oriented Optimal Computing™ to sample and process electricity data in extremely high fidelity. The technology issampling/deriving 26 parameters using current and voltage samples in 24 bit resolution at MHz sampling rates on each phase, neutral and ground, through a precision, software controlled oversampling methodology.This proprietary data acquisition process, acquires and distills to a perfect, near error free digital mimic of the analog signal nanoseconds after it is sensed opening up true Real-Time visibility of electricity flow.

 (Taken from your "Whitepaper", https://3dfs.com/download/financial-benefits-of-protecting-power-networks-with-software-defined-electricity?wpdmdl=11973)

[BravoV]

Its all "wordy" ... none in numbers nor quantitative, in a pure technical talk, yeah, right.

[newbrain]

Well, yes. But the "techtalk" discusses the technology on this level:

Digital Measurement of Electricity 3DFS Technology leverages Task Oriented Optimal Computing™ to sample and process electricity data in extremely high fidelity. The technology issampling/deriving 26 parameters using current and voltage samples in 24 bit resolution at MHz sampling rates on each phase, neutral and ground, through a precision, software controlled oversampling methodology.This proprietary data acquisition process, acquires and distills to a perfect, near error free digital mimic of the analog signal nanoseconds after it is sensed opening up true Real-Time visibility of electricity flow.

 (Taken from your "Whitepaper", https://3dfs.com/download/financial-benefits-of-protecting-power-networks-with-software-defined-electricity?wpdmdl=11973)

Ah, the famous 26 parameters.
It's such a pity that "We do not maintain a list of the 26 parameters that are being measured/derived."
So we cannot know what they are...though the amount of data is quite impressive:
6-7ns sampling time, 24 bits by 26 parameter makes for digesting/processing more than 10 Gbyte/s, that's quite some DSP power!

[dmills]

Well there we have the breakthru, a 24 bit ENOB ADC at MHz rates 
 
Seriously, that part I would buy (and so would many, many, others), forget mucking around with the power waveform, that ADC technology right there is **money**.

3DFS need to get some actual engineers in this discussion, letting the marketing intern play on the internet unsupervised is comedy for us, but someone really needs to warn them.

Thing is I have bought kit that does not a million miles from what I suspect that box is actually capable of (Eat at least some of the current harmonics and tart up the power factor in realtime), and may buy more, but there is one company now on my 'no way in hell' list. 

To quote my old boss "NUMBERS DAMMIT!", nobody here is afraid of getting down and technical, and you have a patent so there are no trade secret issues.

Where are the real datasheets as opposed to 4 colour glossies?

[NiHaoMike]

Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.

Get into the multimeter market. Such a device, if it lives up to its claims, would completely revolutionize the way measurements are made.

[helius]

...we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well...

Such a device would completely revolutionize science in general.

FTFY

[StillTrying]

You have nailed it. The ADC is the key here. The way that you are all defending loses the information through the ADC and then turns up the sampling after that. The result is the sinewaves look more sinusoidal than they actually are.
Look at the sinewaves in our video, they are true.

Bonkers.

Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.

This oversampling on source and load side then leaves the power electronics to make the corrections constantly.

Real time electricity modeling provides orders of magnitude more information on flowing power than typical RMS measurement. This is the part that I think you are all having trouble understanding. We are literally working with a layer of data that is abstract to you, but a reality for SDE.

Bonkers.

Edit. added the bold bit.