Poll

3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?

Very useful power efficiency control products.
2 (3%)
Software Defined Electricity is the future!
1 (1.5%)
Nothing new, all been done before.
4 (6.1%)
Not sure / don't know.
5 (7.6%)
Probably mostly just snake oil / scam.
54 (81.8%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?  (Read 12242 times)

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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2019, 01:22:07 pm »
No, they are not FACTS at this point, you are spouting buzzwords and wankery, not explaining anything in actual QUANTIFIABLE muasurements in terms of things like patent papers, charts/graphs, actual verifiable figures. All you are doing is making CLAIMS, not backing them up, which is what we've BEEN ASKING. You have shown 0 PROOF that your device does what you say it does, and you say you are not an engineer on their team so how does that qualify you to explain anything? I could do the same thing and claim I have a cold fusion generator that harnesses zero point energy and the power of lunar phases. ::)

How about you open that blue box and take high res photos of the inside...because if you look at the poll on top, most of us think it's full of crap. Prove us wrong and you'll earn your rep back.



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Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2019, 01:36:20 pm »
I am explaining how it works.

No, you really aren't. You are stating what it allegedly does.

What this audience is looking for are real explanations of what the components are, what the circuit looks like (at least a block diagram), and what the algorithms do (again, a high-level technical summary). There must be a way of conveying that with technical credibility without giving away any trade secrets. Would you have a peer-reviewed scientific paper or a key patent which explains the principles and which you could share?
 
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Offline newbrain

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2019, 01:54:38 pm »
You know nothing about this tech. Literally nothing, not to mention you are wrong with everything you say.
Possibly.
You are not helping in any way, though. :-//
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2019, 05:29:26 pm »
I am explaining how it works.

No, you really aren't. You are stating what it allegedly does.

What this audience is looking for are real explanations of what the components are, what the circuit looks like (at least a block diagram), and what the algorithms do (again, a high-level technical summary). There must be a way of conveying that with technical credibility without giving away any trade secrets. Would you have a peer-reviewed scientific paper or a key patent which explains the principles and which you could share?


Yes I really am stating facts.

The granted patent https://3dfs.com/news/3dfs-announces-stake-patent-issued/11/2015

It really is quite simple. The losses that exist in power flow are prevented 99%, as evidenced in the video in this thread.

The algorithm works like this, "The power is spoiled, I'll correct it."

We have an entire section at techtalk.3dfs.com for this stuff.
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Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2019, 06:39:01 pm »
The granted patent https://3dfs.com/news/3dfs-announces-stake-patent-issued/11/2015

US 9,178,35, "Multipurpose, universal converter...".  The patent essentially seems to describe a combination of UPS, various frequency converters, and power factor correction, where the PFC is done via a DSP. Maybe tossing all these things into one device is new. I cannot recognize (understand?) the inventive benefits of the combination. And specifically I cannot see any hint why one should use a DSP rather than conventional power factor correction.

Quote
The algorithm works like this, "The power is spoiled, I'll correct it."
We have an entire section at techtalk.3dfs.com for this stuff.

Well, yes. But the "techtalk" discusses the technology on this level:

Quote
Digital Measurement of Electricity 3DFS Technology leverages Task Oriented Optimal Computing™ to sample and process electricity data in extremely high fidelity. The technology issampling/deriving 26 parameters using current and voltage samples in 24 bit resolution at MHz sampling rates on each phase, neutral and ground, through a precision, software controlled oversampling methodology.This proprietary data acquisition process, acquires and distills to a perfect, near error free digital mimic of the analog signal nanoseconds after it is sensed opening up true Real-Time visibility of electricity flow.

 (Taken from your "Whitepaper", https://3dfs.com/download/financial-benefits-of-protecting-power-networks-with-software-defined-electricity?wpdmdl=11973)

:-\
 
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Online BravoV

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2019, 08:07:57 pm »
Its all "wordy" ... none in numbers nor quantitative, in a pure technical talk, yeah, right.


Offline newbrain

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2019, 09:02:15 pm »
Well, yes. But the "techtalk" discusses the technology on this level:

Quote
Digital Measurement of Electricity 3DFS Technology leverages Task Oriented Optimal Computing™ to sample and process electricity data in extremely high fidelity. The technology issampling/deriving 26 parameters using current and voltage samples in 24 bit resolution at MHz sampling rates on each phase, neutral and ground, through a precision, software controlled oversampling methodology.This proprietary data acquisition process, acquires and distills to a perfect, near error free digital mimic of the analog signal nanoseconds after it is sensed opening up true Real-Time visibility of electricity flow.

 (Taken from your "Whitepaper", https://3dfs.com/download/financial-benefits-of-protecting-power-networks-with-software-defined-electricity?wpdmdl=11973)

:-\
Ah, the famous 26 parameters.
It's such a pity that "We do not maintain a list of the 26 parameters that are being measured/derived."
So we cannot know what they are...though the amount of data is quite impressive:
6-7ns sampling time, 24 bits by 26 parameter makes for digesting/processing more than 10 Gbyte/s, that's quite some DSP power!
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Offline dmills

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2019, 09:26:07 pm »
Well there we have the breakthru, a 24 bit ENOB ADC at MHz rates  :-DD
 
Seriously, that part I would buy (and so would many, many, others), forget mucking around with the power waveform, that ADC technology right there is **money**.

3DFS need to get some actual engineers in this discussion, letting the marketing intern play on the internet unsupervised is comedy for us, but someone really needs to warn them.

Thing is I have bought kit that does not a million miles from what I suspect that box is actually capable of (Eat at least some of the current harmonics and tart up the power factor in realtime), and may buy more, but there is one company now on my 'no way in hell' list. 

To quote my old boss "NUMBERS DAMMIT!", nobody here is afraid of getting down and technical, and you have a patent so there are no trade secret issues.

Where are the real datasheets as opposed to 4 colour glossies?

 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2019, 10:34:53 pm »
Well there we have the breakthru, a 24 bit ENOB ADC at MHz rates  :-DD
 
Seriously, that part I would buy (and so would many, many, others), forget mucking around with the power waveform, that ADC technology right there is **money**.

3DFS need to get some actual engineers in this discussion, letting the marketing intern play on the internet unsupervised is comedy for us, but someone really needs to warn them.

Thing is I have bought kit that does not a million miles from what I suspect that box is actually capable of (Eat at least some of the current harmonics and tart up the power factor in realtime), and may buy more, but there is one company now on my 'no way in hell' list. 

To quote my old boss "NUMBERS DAMMIT!", nobody here is afraid of getting down and technical, and you have a patent so there are no trade secret issues.

Where are the real datasheets as opposed to 4 colour glossies?


You have nailed it. The ADC is the key here. The way that you are all defending loses the information through the ADC and then turns up the sampling after that. The result is the sinewaves look more sinusoidal than they actually are.

Look at the sinewaves in our video, they are true.

That 24bit resolution at MHz frequencies is true, from data acquisition through. That is the key to all of our technology. We actually work with the real data. Everybody else works with averages and integrals.

-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2019, 10:49:33 pm »
Well, yes. But the "techtalk" discusses the technology on this level:

Quote
Digital Measurement of Electricity 3DFS Technology leverages Task Oriented Optimal Computing™ to sample and process electricity data in extremely high fidelity. The technology issampling/deriving 26 parameters using current and voltage samples in 24 bit resolution at MHz sampling rates on each phase, neutral and ground, through a precision, software controlled oversampling methodology.This proprietary data acquisition process, acquires and distills to a perfect, near error free digital mimic of the analog signal nanoseconds after it is sensed opening up true Real-Time visibility of electricity flow.

 (Taken from your "Whitepaper", https://3dfs.com/download/financial-benefits-of-protecting-power-networks-with-software-defined-electricity?wpdmdl=11973)

:-\
Ah, the famous 26 parameters.
It's such a pity that "We do not maintain a list of the 26 parameters that are being measured/derived."
So we cannot know what they are...though the amount of data is quite impressive:
6-7ns sampling time, 24 bits by 26 parameter makes for digesting/processing more than 10 Gbyte/s, that's quite some DSP power!


Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.

This is what allows us to sample 26 parameters, C & V plus, phase angle, reactive power, current harmonics, voltage harmonics, reactive harmonics, impedance, all in real time, perfectly synchronized at all times. This is called real time electricity modeling and is what allows the technology to make the precision corrections, because all of the information about the flowing power is always known at all times.

This oversampling on source and load side then leaves the power electronics to make the corrections constantly.

Real time electricity modeling provides orders of magnitude more information on flowing power than typical RMS measurement. This is the part that I think you are all having trouble understanding. We are literally working with a layer of data that is abstract to you, but a reality for SDE.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2019, 11:03:57 pm »
Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.
Get into the multimeter market. Such a device, if it lives up to its claims, would completely revolutionize the way measurements are made.
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Offline helius

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2019, 11:06:22 pm »
...we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well...
Such a device would completely revolutionize science in general.
FTFY
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2019, 11:15:12 pm »
Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.
Get into the multimeter market. Such a device, if it lives up to its claims, would completely revolutionize the way measurements are made.

It does and we are developing dozens of new products at 3DFS.com and SAMControllers.com
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2019, 11:18:20 pm »
...we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well...
Such a device would completely revolutionize science in general.
FTFY

You are correct. We are presently working on new sensors which will provide this error free data for everybody else.

This method allows machines, systems and processes to model and control science in real time. This is why it is so important.

SDE is only one application. Literally every control system and sensor in the world is ripe for disruption. 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2019, 11:19:26 pm »
You have nailed it. The ADC is the key here. The way that you are all defending loses the information through the ADC and then turns up the sampling after that. The result is the sinewaves look more sinusoidal than they actually are.
Look at the sinewaves in our video, they are true.

Bonkers.

Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.

This oversampling on source and load side then leaves the power electronics to make the corrections constantly.

Real time electricity modeling provides orders of magnitude more information on flowing power than typical RMS measurement. This is the part that I think you are all having trouble understanding. We are literally working with a layer of data that is abstract to you, but a reality for SDE.

Bonkers.

Edit. added the bold bit.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2019, 11:21:58 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #40 on: May 18, 2019, 11:29:12 pm »
You have nailed it. The ADC is the key here. The way that you are all defending loses the information through the ADC and then turns up the sampling after that. The result is the sinewaves look more sinusoidal than they actually are.
Look at the sinewaves in our video, they are true.

Bonkers.

Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.

This oversampling on source and load side then leaves the power electronics to make the corrections constantly.

Real time electricity modeling provides orders of magnitude more information on flowing power than typical RMS measurement. This is the part that I think you are all having trouble understanding. We are literally working with a layer of data that is abstract to you, but a reality for SDE.

Bonkers.

Edit. added the bold bit.


Yeah, that is the initial reaction. It is difficult to learn this at this point in your career, particularly from somebody like me, but you are not the only one who has been enlightened.

It is like Arthur Clarke said, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."  8)
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline dmills

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2019, 11:43:47 pm »
I think there was also something about "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"?

I would take a claim of 24 bits ENOB @ 1MHz as being extraordinary, so where is the extraordinary evidence?

Frankly nobody here will take you or your company seriously until you actually come up with REAL NUMBERS, we are engineers, numbers are what we do.....

Thermodynamics (Not to say the whole position/momentum uncertainty thing) says that there can be no such thing as a perfect measurement in less then infinite time, so for a 1MHz 24 ENOB ADC, what are your numbers? Linearity, settling time, offset, scale range, bandwidth, power consumption you know the basic stuff?

 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2019, 11:51:00 pm »
I would take a claim of 24 bits ENOB @ 1MHz as being extraordinary,

Don't forget the nanoseconds, so the sampling speed is 100MHz or more!


I think it's quite clever the way it doesn't need a good earth for protection against lightning, instead it dissipates the lightning spike and blows it out of the fans.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/msg1590616/#msg1590616

It's a pity there's no one here with enough knowledge of electricy to explain why that's not going to work. :)
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Online BravoV

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2019, 04:54:48 am »
I think it's quite clever the way it doesn't need a good earth for protection against lightning, instead it dissipates the lightning spike and blows it out of the fans.

Agree, the lightning strike turns instantly into arcing plasma, and then the whole fully charged plasma gas will be blown out from the system by the constantly running high power fans, so no more hazard, get it ?  :-DD  :scared:

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2019, 05:42:56 am »
I think it's quite clever the way it doesn't need a good earth for protection against lightning, instead it dissipates the lightning spike and blows it out of the fans.

Agree, the lightning strike turns instantly into arcing plasma, and then the whole fully charged plasma gas will be blown out from the system by the constantly running high power fans, so no more hazard, get it ?  :-DD  :scared:

Holy shit, they've invented a device that shoots ball lightning out it's fans! Now I can finally make a homemade plasma gun! :-DD

In fact, that's what I called him out on earlier and he was like "no, you're wrong". If you shunt a surge with a device connected through breakers, it'll just trip the breakers. :palm:
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Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2019, 08:33:41 am »
Many years ago, when I was a highschool kid, there was a fellow in my home city who thought he had squared the circle, and proven that Pi = 3.2. He published a series of full-page ads in the local newspaper, which gave excerpts of his proof, but also devoted a lot of page space to extolling the virtues and benefits of this discovery, and to praising the Lord.

Being a smartass kid, I figured I would reach out to the guy and show him the errors of his ways. Phoned him, arranged an afternoon visit, and was warmly welcomed by a retired man who was pleased that someone took an interest. (Side note -- yes, this was a time when parents let their 15-year-old kid go out on his own to visit a stranger...)

I left in the evening with a copy of his self-published book with the full "proofs", and with a lot of frustration. The guy's way of reasoning was so different from what I had learned in school: He kept starting from unproven claims and arguing round in circles until he reached the conclusion that the claim was true, etc. -- I could not get a foot in the door. The book was the same.

I concluded that arguing with this type of evangelist is not a fun way to test your (math) skills, but that it is pointless. I have typically given wide berth to these types of "discoveries" from thereon. I still have the book, and have occasionally looked at it to remind me of that learning...

Now wait -- why was I telling that story here?  ::)
 

Offline dmills

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2019, 11:00:12 am »
I think it is simpler then that, I think we are either the research subjects in a psychology experiment (Wonder what the IRB had to say), or we are just straight up being trolled!

Regards, Dan.
 

Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2019, 11:34:06 am »
Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.

For starters, please read up on quantization errors and noise. Then look into measurement errors. There's no error free data acquisition!  With such claims 3DFS is becoming a laughing stock.
 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #48 on: May 19, 2019, 09:13:51 pm »
EMP Detection: Software-Defined Electricity operates on the principle of oversampling inputs to extract maximum information on the power flow to deliver the most possible time to react to any electrical event. EMP travels in waves. In oceans preceding a tsunami, shore water recedes significantly back before the inrush. A similar phenomenon is true with EMP in power networks. Time is the most precious resource related to EMP damage mitigation. The sooner it is detected, the more time there is to react.
3dfs.com/news/3dfs-selected-as-finalist-for-nato-innovation-challenge/05/2019

Edit. Is there any evidence that the bold bit even exits for EMP, I've not been able to find any, yet.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 10:03:45 am by StillTrying »
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2019, 10:09:02 am »
EMP Detection: Software-Defined Electricity operates on the principle of oversampling inputs to extract maximum information on the power flow to deliver the most possible time to react to any electrical event. EMP travels in waves. In oceans preceding a tsunami, shore water recedes significantly back before the inrush. A similar phenomenon is true with EMP in power networks. Time is the most precious resource related to EMP damage mitigation. The sooner it is detected, the more time there is to react.
3dfs.com/news/3dfs-selected-as-finalist-for-nato-innovation-challenge/05/2019

Edit. Is there any evidence that the bold bit even exits for EMP, I've not been able to find any, yet.

Pretty neat, huh? It is always nice to teach somebody something that they did not know. You will carry that information forever.  :-+
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 


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