Poll

3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?

Very useful power efficiency control products.
2 (3%)
Software Defined Electricity is the future!
1 (1.5%)
Nothing new, all been done before.
4 (6.1%)
Not sure / don't know.
5 (7.6%)
Probably mostly just snake oil / scam.
54 (81.8%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?  (Read 20348 times)

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Offline dmills

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2019, 11:43:47 pm »
I think there was also something about "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"?

I would take a claim of 24 bits ENOB @ 1MHz as being extraordinary, so where is the extraordinary evidence?

Frankly nobody here will take you or your company seriously until you actually come up with REAL NUMBERS, we are engineers, numbers are what we do.....

Thermodynamics (Not to say the whole position/momentum uncertainty thing) says that there can be no such thing as a perfect measurement in less then infinite time, so for a 1MHz 24 ENOB ADC, what are your numbers? Linearity, settling time, offset, scale range, bandwidth, power consumption you know the basic stuff?

 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2019, 11:51:00 pm »
I would take a claim of 24 bits ENOB @ 1MHz as being extraordinary,

Don't forget the nanoseconds, so the sampling speed is 100MHz or more!


I think it's quite clever the way it doesn't need a good earth for protection against lightning, instead it dissipates the lightning spike and blows it out of the fans.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/digital-electricity/msg1590616/#msg1590616

It's a pity there's no one here with enough knowledge of electricy to explain why that's not going to work. :)
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Online BravoV

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2019, 04:54:48 am »
I think it's quite clever the way it doesn't need a good earth for protection against lightning, instead it dissipates the lightning spike and blows it out of the fans.

Agree, the lightning strike turns instantly into arcing plasma, and then the whole fully charged plasma gas will be blown out from the system by the constantly running high power fans, so no more hazard, get it ?  :-DD  :scared:

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2019, 05:42:56 am »
I think it's quite clever the way it doesn't need a good earth for protection against lightning, instead it dissipates the lightning spike and blows it out of the fans.

Agree, the lightning strike turns instantly into arcing plasma, and then the whole fully charged plasma gas will be blown out from the system by the constantly running high power fans, so no more hazard, get it ?  :-DD  :scared:

Holy shit, they've invented a device that shoots ball lightning out it's fans! Now I can finally make a homemade plasma gun! :-DD

In fact, that's what I called him out on earlier and he was like "no, you're wrong". If you shunt a surge with a device connected through breakers, it'll just trip the breakers. :palm:
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2019, 08:33:41 am »
Many years ago, when I was a highschool kid, there was a fellow in my home city who thought he had squared the circle, and proven that Pi = 3.2. He published a series of full-page ads in the local newspaper, which gave excerpts of his proof, but also devoted a lot of page space to extolling the virtues and benefits of this discovery, and to praising the Lord.

Being a smartass kid, I figured I would reach out to the guy and show him the errors of his ways. Phoned him, arranged an afternoon visit, and was warmly welcomed by a retired man who was pleased that someone took an interest. (Side note -- yes, this was a time when parents let their 15-year-old kid go out on his own to visit a stranger...)

I left in the evening with a copy of his self-published book with the full "proofs", and with a lot of frustration. The guy's way of reasoning was so different from what I had learned in school: He kept starting from unproven claims and arguing round in circles until he reached the conclusion that the claim was true, etc. -- I could not get a foot in the door. The book was the same.

I concluded that arguing with this type of evangelist is not a fun way to test your (math) skills, but that it is pointless. I have typically given wide berth to these types of "discoveries" from thereon. I still have the book, and have occasionally looked at it to remind me of that learning...

Now wait -- why was I telling that story here?  ::)
 

Offline dmills

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2019, 11:00:12 am »
I think it is simpler then that, I think we are either the research subjects in a psychology experiment (Wonder what the IRB had to say), or we are just straight up being trolled!

Regards, Dan.
 

Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2019, 11:34:06 am »
Yes, the data acquisition is the key here. To be clear, we are sampling current and voltage at this level and because we have developed a method of error free data acquisition all calculations are error free as well.

For starters, please read up on quantization errors and noise. Then look into measurement errors. There's no error free data acquisition!  With such claims 3DFS is becoming a laughing stock.
 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2019, 09:13:51 pm »
EMP Detection: Software-Defined Electricity operates on the principle of oversampling inputs to extract maximum information on the power flow to deliver the most possible time to react to any electrical event. EMP travels in waves. In oceans preceding a tsunami, shore water recedes significantly back before the inrush. A similar phenomenon is true with EMP in power networks. Time is the most precious resource related to EMP damage mitigation. The sooner it is detected, the more time there is to react.
3dfs.com/news/3dfs-selected-as-finalist-for-nato-innovation-challenge/05/2019

Edit. Is there any evidence that the bold bit even exits for EMP, I've not been able to find any, yet.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 10:03:45 am by StillTrying »
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Offline Yansi

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2019, 10:11:32 am »
Why isn't this troll already banned?
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2019, 10:45:52 am »
Why isn't this troll already banned?

But then he wouldn't be able to tell us who the manufacturer of the 24 bit 100MHz error free ADCs is. :)
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2019, 10:46:50 am »
Pretty neat, huh? It is always nice to teach somebody something that they did not know. You will carry that information forever.  :-+

I've now read many pages on lightning and nuke EMP, not one mentions or shows the tsunami effect. I think you're making it up.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2019, 11:35:46 am »
We have developed a layer in between the data acquisition and the model input.

I always suspected it was just the reading of the digital values out of the ADC that was error free, everyone can do that.

Quote
It is within this layer that the tech oversamples and by the next input (6 ns) has drilled down to the error free data.

It oversamples digital values? What does that even mean.

Quote
So in other words, the input is error free.

Nope, "the input" to what?  As the analogue readings are full of random and measurement errors, no data onwards is error free.

It probably uses 24 bit math, and you're totally confused. :)
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 11:52:14 am by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2019, 12:40:18 pm »
This is not done in the same way that you are familiar with. It oversamples analog data, and within that 6ns converts to digital and performs all the data error corrections so that the input data (the data fed into the computing model) is error free.

Thanks for trying, I've tried, and no one will make sense of that!

How many bits wide is the "input data"? I suppose if it was cut down to only 6 bits wide you could claim that any error must be less than one LSB so it's error free. :)

Changing 60Hz power is so ruff and ready that quite a bit a error won't matter at all, so all the claims of 24 bit error free data is total nonsense.

Quote
It is literally an abstract layer of data processing that is new. Intelligent sensing.

LOL
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2019, 01:39:28 pm »
This is not done in the same way that you are familiar with. It oversamples analog data, and within that 6ns converts to digital and performs all the data error corrections so that the input data (the data fed into the computing model) is error free.

It is literally an abstract layer of data processing that is new. Intelligent sensing.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but I will ask one last time: Do you have a technical publication, scientific paper, or patent application which describes this? You position this as a rather central idea for 3DFS's business, with applications well beyond electricity. You can't bank on keeping it as a trade secret, right? So why not explain it in technical terms, preferably to a patent examiner?
 

Offline Gregg

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2019, 06:01:43 pm »
Why isn't this troll already banned?
Because we are all having too much fun with this thread and even learning new marketing spin terms and outright fantasy.  :-DD   This stuff is science fiction without the science.  :popcorn:
It is true that engineers love a good argument.  :box:
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2019, 06:31:32 pm »
trade secrets are the only protection today, not patents. We will build and maintain our market advantage by never disclosing our technological advantage, only the results.

Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. So you intentionally never explained how your technology works. And there I was, wondering whether we had a communication problem, maybe caused by different educational background.  ::)

Could you please share the peer-reviewed papers and independent third-party studies of the results then?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 06:55:33 pm by ebastler »
 

Offline Gregg

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2019, 06:40:40 pm »
So the little blue box senses analog anomalies at the breaker panel and over samples these glitches to make sure it hasn’t erred.   :-// All of this over sampling takes a finite amount of time.

Then it converts this huge amount of oversampling into 24 bit digital signals and sends it to the processor.  This certainly isn’t instantaneous.  |O

Then the processor accesses the super-secret algorithm and decides the best way to deal with the myriad of spikes, sags, harmonics etc. present; this has to be done for each unique anomaly in order to provide the promised results.  Happens in no time, no doubt.  :-DD

Then the processor signals the appropriate switching of some more secret circuitry that can magically capture the spikes and use the energy to fill in the sags.  WOW  And even better this all happens in real time as fast as the anomalies initiate and stop them in their tracks. :wtf:

Maybe it utilizes the infamous flux capacitor to magically go back in time and correct the problems before they happen; but how does it get to 88 miles an hour?
Maybe the marketing wizards at 3DFS believe the grid is make believe and all digital, like The Matrix.   And the blue box can magically stop the digital glitches in mid cycle.  :blah:  :blah:  :blah:  :palm:
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2019, 09:15:45 am »
All of this over sampling takes a finite amount of time.

They claim oversampling makes the response faster. :palm:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/3dfss-vectorq-digital-electricity-technology/msg2422518/#msg2422518
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline krish2487

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2019, 12:10:32 pm »


So.. You are asking a  forum of EEs to trust on good faith that you are improving power quality. Yet
1.It is a revolutionary technology which does something.
2.A forum full of EEs cannot comprehend the technology.
3. You cant demonstrate it using traditional T&M equipment since they are "pretty much useless".
4. The perceived improvement can only be measured, observed and reported by your technology.
5. You cannot give away your IP / trade secrets in order to maintain your market advantage.


I am sure anything is possible if you change the rules of engagement... If you cannot, using todays widely accepted norms and standards, to demonstrate the use and benifit of your system I doubt if you can get anyone to even understand what you are wanting to communicate.


Sure, your stuff does work... but before you revolutionise physics and electronics and anything else inbetween... explain in todays terms and standards..


In the words of Richard Feynman "If you cannot explain it simply, you dont understand it".
Either that or you are stringing everyone along...


 >:D 


Quote from: cdoerfler on Today at 09:22:36 pm


>Quote from: ebastler on Today at 04:31:32 am


>Quote from: cdoerfler on Today at 12:55:39 am
trade secrets are the only protection today, not patents. We will build and maintain our market advantage by never disclosing our technological advantage, only the results.



Ahh, now we are getting somewhere. So you intentionally never explained how your technology works. And there I was, wondering whether we had a communication problem, maybe caused by different educational background.  ::)

Could you please share the peer-reviewed papers and independent third-party studies of the results then?



The beautiful thing about SDE is how easy and non-invasive it is to install. We go to clients and show them directly what the improvement is.

Typically, since existing power quality analyzers are pretty much useless from a data verification point of view, the easiest way for us to show the difference is to install a VectorQ and run a test where it continuously measures, but turns the correction on and off every minute for 20 minutes. Then we run a report like this https://3dfs.com/download/3dfs-redacted08292016 and compare it against their data.

Presently, we have not covered an entire data center yet. We start with a row, let them experience it and expand from there. Once we are covering a full data center, we will release a case study showing the before and after.


If god made us in his image,
and we are this stupid
then....
 

Offline krish2487

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2019, 12:12:55 pm »
Which leads me to my next question...


If you are sure that traditional power quality analyzers are useless.. how are you able to demonstrate the effectiveness of your technology?
What is the T&M equipment your reports are based on???
What are they using for data acquisition??
If god made us in his image,
and we are this stupid
then....
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2019, 12:50:05 pm »
So.. You are asking a  forum of EEs to trust on good faith that you are improving power quality. Yet
1.It is a revolutionary technology which does something.
2.A forum full of EEs cannot comprehend the technology.
3. You cant demonstrate it using traditional T&M equipment since they are "pretty much useless".
4. The perceived improvement can only be measured, observed and reported by your technology.
5. You cannot give away your IP / trade secrets in order to maintain your market advantage.

Nice summary of the key points, krish.
Feels strangely familiar to the sales pitch made by the typical "audiophoolery" vendors...  ::)
 

Offline krish2487

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2019, 02:21:19 pm »


Regarding Point 3 - I am sorry, It doesnt work that way.
"The effect can be seen but the data cannot be verified. "


You need to be able to quantify and analyse data for your claims to hold true. As I said, todays standards for measurement and analysis.. use them to quantify and measure.. then you can prove your claims..


Pretty much any active power quality filter / manager works the same way. Power quality improvement happens only in a finite amount of ways.
1. Improving the power factor by reducing the phase difference between current and voltage
2. Reduce current and voltage harmonics in the source.
3. An uncommon method is also to balance three phase currents, but that is really only relevant in > 100s or KW power range. (granted this doesnt inherently improve power as much as reduce imbalanced load upstream to generation)


to name a few...


And as others have mentioned COTS power filters already accomplish this.. What you have done is to do speed up the rate of the correction being applied..
Its utility is a seperate point for discussion..


Behind all the smoke and mirrors, this is what your device does. The rest of the english adds little value to this fact.




Quote from: cdoerfler on Yesterday at 11:56:58 pm


>Quote from: ebastler on Yesterday at 10:50:05 pm


>Quote from: krish2487 on Yesterday at 10:10:32 pm
So.. You are asking a  forum of EEs to trust on good faith that you are improving power quality. Yet
1.It is a revolutionary technology which does something.
2.A forum full of EEs cannot comprehend the technology.
3. You cant demonstrate it using traditional T&M equipment since they are "pretty much useless".
4. The perceived improvement can only be measured, observed and reported by your technology.
5. You cannot give away your IP / trade secrets in order to maintain your market advantage.



Nice summary of the key points, krish.
Feels strangely familiar to the sales pitch made by the typical "audiophoolery" vendors...  ::)



1. Yes
2. It has nothing to do with comprehension. You all have more than enough intellect to understand.
3. The effect can be seen, the data cannot be verified because our technology is the only one that works at that level. The end result is seen on any equipment.
4. See 3
5. Yes.


If god made us in his image,
and we are this stupid
then....
 

Offline krish2487

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2019, 04:39:01 pm »


As I said, you are wanting to redefine science in order to prove your alleged claims... The T&M instruments are not accurate / precise enough...
We can prove our claims using our technology... Our method of measurement reveals that no energy is saved....


Ok, I ll bite.. First step to accepting your paradigm shift is to repeat the tests.. So how do you do what you do... doesnt have to be extremely specific in details.. just the broad sequence of steps to repeat your process... A -> B ->C....


And how is it any different from any COTS solution...


Let me rephrase.. what are you doing different, in order to get your claimed improvements?


Quote from: cdoerfler on Today at 12:55:31 am


>Quote from: krish2487 on Today at 12:21:19 am


Regarding Point 3 - I am sorry, It doesnt work that way.
"The effect can be seen but the data cannot be verified. "


You need to be able to quantify and analyse data for your claims to hold true. As I said, todays standards for measurement and analysis.. use them to quantify and measure.. then you can prove your claims..


Pretty much any active power quality filter / manager works the same way. Power quality improvement happens only in a finite amount of ways.
1. Improving the power factor by reducing the phase difference between current and voltage
2. Reduce current and voltage harmonics in the source.
3. An uncommon method is also to balance three phase currents, but that is really only relevant in > 100s or KW power range. (granted this doesnt inherently improve power as much as reduce imbalanced load upstream to generation)


to name a few...


And as others have mentioned COTS power filters already accomplish this.. What you have done is to do speed up the rate of the correction being applied..
Its utility is a seperate point for discussion..


Behind all the smoke and mirrors, this is what your device does. The rest of the english adds little value to this fact.




>Quote from: cdoerfler on Yesterday at 11:56:58 pm

>
If god made us in his image,
and we are this stupid
then....
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2019, 04:46:30 pm »
It is funny to us because here we provide more data and analytics that they could ever receive from their equipment, but still they are not convinced until they see it with their own eyes on their own instruments.

I wonder why they don't believe your claims. It's not as if you fill the interwebs with impossible claims, or anything like that.

I wonder why the voltage and current are so out of phase.

CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline krish2487

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2019, 06:08:04 pm »


Evasive, inconclusive and vague at best...
I asked for the precise sequence of steps to replicate your success....


All you are giving me is the marketing material and investors pitch talk..


I am asking for this..
1. Setup a test rig of this capacity and this load..
2. Now measure V/I at these and these points...
3. Now this measurements has to happen at 20 or 30 Mhz.. meaning you need a FPGA and a fast ADC with lots of memory...
4. Since we are aiming for 24 bits ENOB the signal path has to be clean and be guarded against any noise... meaning we need these and these safeguards..
5. Now with the measured data... perform this and this transform...
6. We end up with this results...
7. This is where our AHA moment comes into play...
8. We use this data is this manner (which is different from the mainstream COTS correction)
9. Now we use this calculated parameters to correct the supply in precisely this fashion...
10. Now we are able to observe these and these results before and after the correction...


You see where I am going with this... If I ( or anyone cant replicate this sequence) then whatever you say might be fluff....
That is what I and many others meant by repeatability...


Quote from: cdoerfler on Today at 04:00:08 am


>Quote from: krish2487 on Today at 12:21:19 am


Regarding Point 3 - I am sorry, It doesnt work that way.
"The effect can be seen but the data cannot be verified. "


You need to be able to quantify and analyse data for your claims to hold true. As I said, todays standards for measurement and analysis.. use them to quantify and measure.. then you can prove your claims..


Pretty much any active power quality filter / manager works the same way. Power quality improvement happens only in a finite amount of ways.
1. Improving the power factor by reducing the phase difference between current and voltage
2. Reduce current and voltage harmonics in the source.
3. An uncommon method is also to balance three phase currents, but that is really only relevant in > 100s or KW power range. (granted this doesnt inherently improve power as much as reduce imbalanced load upstream to generation)


to name a few...


And as others have mentioned COTS power filters already accomplish this.. What you have done is to do speed up the rate of the correction being applied..
Its utility is a seperate point for discussion..


Behind all the smoke and mirrors, this is what your device does. The rest of the english adds little value to this fact.




>Quote from: cdoerfler on Yesterday at 11:56:58 pm

>
If god made us in his image,
and we are this stupid
then....
 
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