Poll

3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?

Very useful power efficiency control products.
2 (3%)
Software Defined Electricity is the future!
1 (1.5%)
Nothing new, all been done before.
4 (6.1%)
Not sure / don't know.
5 (7.6%)
Probably mostly just snake oil / scam.
54 (81.8%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?  (Read 13073 times)

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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #125 on: June 09, 2019, 01:26:55 pm »
No your invention would violate well established laws of electrical physics that have been studied for about 220 FUCKING YEARS! :palm: If you can suddenly bend the laws of physics to your will then where's our lightsabers, cold fusion, open air holograms, ftl travel, forcefields, exc. ::)

And to be clear, we aren't the only ones onto your BS. :blah: :bullshit:

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/an-operating-system-for-electricity.149474/
https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=187471&page=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/energy/comments/8or7gl/3dfss_software_for_electricity_could_double_the/

Do you hear yourself? What is more likely, that you don't understand or we are violating known laws of physics?

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #126 on: June 09, 2019, 02:17:12 pm »
I'm out of here. As long as all we get from cdoerfler is the insistence that it works, combined with both the unwillingness and inability to explain how it supposedly works, this thread is not going anywhere.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 02:53:22 pm by ebastler »
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #127 on: June 09, 2019, 02:26:24 pm »
No your invention would violate well established laws of electrical physics that have been studied for about 220 FUCKING YEARS! :palm: If you can suddenly bend the laws of physics to your will then where's our lightsabers, cold fusion, open air holograms, ftl travel, forcefields, exc. ::)

And to be clear, we aren't the only ones onto your BS. :blah: :bullshit:

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/an-operating-system-for-electricity.149474/
https://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=187471&page=3
https://www.reddit.com/r/energy/comments/8or7gl/3dfss_software_for_electricity_could_double_the/

Do you hear yourself? What is more likely, that you don't understand or we are violating known laws of physics?

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke

We understand basic physics perfectly well. There IS nothing to understand about your BS, you CAN'T violate the laws of physics. That's why the other forums are calling you out.

What is more likely, that you suddently invent tech that can violate 200 year old laws of phsics and you use it for a boring little PF corrector instead of fancy sci-fi stuff, or that you are simply a very persistant charlitan that has gone nuts believing their own shit? You are not even a real engineer, you are a goon. :blah: :bullshit:

"I reject your reality and substitute my own" -Adam Savage

For example you CAN'T detect DC with a transformer. Physics dictates that you CANNOT create a current with a static magnetic field. No amount of electronic rubbish can change that. "flex coil transformers" :-DD :bullshit: Do you also have a flux capacitor? Surprised you didn't use a hall effect sensor as an excuse, at least that can detect static fields.
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #128 on: June 09, 2019, 02:32:18 pm »
I'm out of here. As long as all we get from cdoerfler is the insistence that it works, combined with both the unwillingness and inability to explain how it works, this thread is not going anywhere.

He's not an engineer, he's a marketing puppet. He's been driven mad into wholely believing anything the phony dev team dishes out to him to spew on the internet. He fails miserably every time when he encounters real engineers. (just look at the top vote)

The only people he's managed to fool are the dumb media who also believed in things like waterseer, ubeam, batterizer, fontus, exc. And guess what happened to those... ::)
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #129 on: June 09, 2019, 03:03:45 pm »
To think that we have had nearly a decade of progress, demonstrations and evaluation in front of people who actually test and assess the technology and none of them have come to such as rudimentary conclusion yet the internet physics keyboard warrior gurus are certain.

I am humbled to be in the presence of such physics gurus that can assess a technological innovation over the internet from thousands of miles away without ever witnessing it first hand.  :palm:





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Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #130 on: June 09, 2019, 03:56:53 pm »
If you think that we are just a bunch of internet trolls and morons unable to grasp 3DFS' magic technology why do you waste your time with this discussion?
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #131 on: June 09, 2019, 06:25:49 pm »
I am humbled to be in the presence of such physics gurus that can assess a technological innovation over the internet from thousands of miles away without ever witnessing it first hand.  :palm:

Thanks. :P
But the laws of physics that your claims violate were made billions of years ago, haven't changed, and are the same everywhere, so we don't have to be where you are to know how they work. :palm:

Quote
To think that we have had nearly a decade of progress, demonstrations and evaluation in front of people who actually test and assess the technology and none of them have come to such as rudimentary conclusion yet the internet physics keyboard warrior gurus are certain.

You claim to have a team of engineers, research scientists and power experts working for years, demonstrations and evaluations, and then claim that the current corrections at the panel "clean the power" and cause asynchronous motors to operate synchronously loaded or not. Even after everyone says those motors don't work like that, and that the PF at the load/motor doesn't change anyway!
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1070789837026783232

Has any happy customer witnessed that miracle fake claim first hand.
I thought not!

I'm afraid many of your claims of what the VectorQ2 can do are worse than bonkers, I might have to upgrade bonkers to fake. 8)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 06:33:06 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #132 on: June 10, 2019, 10:03:24 am »
If you think that we are just a bunch of internet trolls and morons unable to grasp 3DFS' magic technology why do you waste your time with this discussion?

Frankly, it is educational. Only in a group of knee jerk denialists would "experts" in physics openly defend that wasting 68% of energy that is produced is simply the course of normal business because it has been done this way for over a century.

I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit when in objective reality, this is all waste from not controlling and balancing power in real time.

Keep ignoring reality. It does not slow my roll.

-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #133 on: June 10, 2019, 10:36:22 am »
Frankly, it is educational. Only in a group of knee jerk denialists would "experts" in physics openly defend that wasting 68% of energy that is produced is simply the course of normal business because it has been done this way for over a century.

I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit when in objective reality, this is all waste from not controlling and balancing power in real time.

In your assessment, what fraction of that 68% loss is addressable by 3DFS load balancing?

Hmm, seems I am not out of here yet...
Must practice self control... ::)
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #134 on: June 10, 2019, 10:43:49 am »
Frankly, it is educational. Only in a group of knee jerk denialists would "experts" in physics openly defend that wasting 68% of energy that is produced is simply the course of normal business because it has been done this way for over a century.

I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit when in objective reality, this is all waste from not controlling and balancing power in real time.

In your assessment, what fraction of that 68% loss is addressable by 3DFS load balancing?



Hmm, seems I am not out of here yet...
Must practice self control... ::)

It is not just load balancing, although that is a considerable source of loss. Correcting reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing in real time everywhere, at the source, in transformation, conversion (AC/DC), distribution, storage, consumption. When these are addressed and the PQR is brought to 90%+, more than half can be prevented.
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Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #135 on: June 10, 2019, 11:58:23 am »
If you think that we are just a bunch of internet trolls and morons unable to grasp 3DFS' magic technology why do you waste your time with this discussion?

Frankly, it is educational. Only in a group of knee jerk denialists would "experts" in physics openly defend that wasting 68% of energy that is produced is simply the course of normal business because it has been done this way for over a century.

Have a look at the efficiency of combustion engines and how it has evolved over time. We're still driving around with combustion engines, and those magic fuel savers from the TV ads don't work.

I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit when in objective reality, this is all waste from not controlling and balancing power in real time.

Are transmission losses BS?
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #136 on: June 10, 2019, 12:30:22 pm »
Quote
Have a look at the efficiency of combustion engines and how it has evolved over time. We're still driving around with combustion engines, and those magic fuel savers from the TV ads don't work.

Are transmission losses BS?

This is precisely where this group completely abdicates logic in lieu of what some guy taught you years ago.

Losses related to reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing exist at generation. In fact, they are the absolute worst at the point of generation. Where do you think the heat that is induced (physics, remember) is emitted? Why do you think the generator, turbine and exhaust is so hot?

Okay, so now move down the line to capacitor banks or inverters... same thing, clearly reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing issues here...

Transformers? Same

Transmission wires? Same, although there is no modern way that can measure the actual losses, so they are calculated from before and after.  :palm:

Energy storage? Same

And consumption, where these same problems exist.

What would a non-indoctrinated engineer assume about a system that is losing energy like this from top to bottom?

But instead of objectively looking at this system, you choose to blindly accept these losses. If nothing else, it is an indictment on the way power engineers have been educated the world round.

These losses are not just energy waste, but the source of nearly all of the grid instability that exists as well. Further, this lack of control and balance coupled with it being controlled by unintelligent switches and PLC programming makes the grid so vulnerable to cyberattack that it really is a matter of time before that gets revealed.

Blind acceptance of 68% waste in a system is frankly pathetic.
 
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Offline newbrain

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #137 on: June 10, 2019, 12:44:19 pm »
I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit
So, you disproved Carnot's theorem?
That's an interesting development... :palm:
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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #138 on: June 10, 2019, 12:54:24 pm »
I presume you experts will talk about conversion losses and carnot cycle, and all the other bullshit
So, you disproved Carnot's theorem?
That's an interesting development... :palm:

Come on, let’s stay reasonable. He said that other effects (losses) are dominant, not that Carnot‘s theorem is invalid.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #139 on: June 10, 2019, 01:01:57 pm »
Quote
Have a look at the efficiency of combustion engines and how it has evolved over time. We're still driving around with combustion engines, and those magic fuel savers from the TV ads don't work.

Are transmission losses BS?

This is precisely where this group completely abdicates logic in lieu of what some guy taught you years ago.

Losses related to reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing exist at generation. In fact, they are the absolute worst at the point of generation. Where do you think the heat that is induced (physics, remember) is emitted? Why do you think the generator, turbine and exhaust is so hot?

Okay, so now move down the line to capacitor banks or inverters... same thing, clearly reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing issues here...

Transformers? Same

Transmission wires? Same, although there is no modern way that can measure the actual losses, so they are calculated from before and after.  :palm:

Energy storage? Same

And consumption, where these same problems exist.

What would a non-indoctrinated engineer assume about a system that is losing energy like this from top to bottom?

But instead of objectively looking at this system, you choose to blindly accept these losses. If nothing else, it is an indictment on the way power engineers have been educated the world round.

These losses are not just energy waste, but the source of nearly all of the grid instability that exists as well. Further, this lack of control and balance coupled with it being controlled by unintelligent switches and PLC programming makes the grid so vulnerable to cyberattack that it really is a matter of time before that gets revealed.

Blind acceptance of 68% waste in a system is frankly pathetic.

We don't blindy except them, they were established physics since the big bang. :palm: Transmission loss has nothing to do with "harmionic losses" throughout the entire system (total bullshit). Everything that isn't a superconductor in an AC system has an impedance at the normal operating frequency even with a perfect sine wave and PF. That's basic high school physics that your superiors must have beaten out of you for you to believe this rubbish.

EDIT: In fact, hydroelectric power is nearly 100% effiecient ::), the only losses due to said impedance. This 68% only applies to steam plants where the losses are mainly in the steam system. :palm:
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 01:09:12 pm by Cyberdragon »
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Offline newbrain

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #140 on: June 10, 2019, 01:05:45 pm »
Come on, let’s stay reasonable. He said that other effects (losses) are dominant, not that Carnot‘s theorem is invalid.
Then why bring it up? What's his point?

There must be a language barrier. I honestly understand 10% of what he writes. I can grammatically parse the sentences, but they just don't mean anything to me most of the times...this is another example:
Quote
Cleaning up the power at the panel like we do delivers the exact amount into the panel that is demanded resulting in the unintelligent loads consuming precisely what they demanded
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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #141 on: June 10, 2019, 01:27:59 pm »
There must be a language barrier. I honestly understand 10% of what he writes.

Yes, there clearly is a barrier -- not so much in language, but in thought process, scientific background, and intent of the communication. I think Chris is to some extent muddying the waters intentionally, since he is delivering his sales pitch. And to some extent he just does not understand the underlying fundamentals.

As a result, I find there is no willingness or ability on Chris' part to differentiate:
  • What are unavoidable losses (be they due to resistive losses, stray magnetic fields in a generator, Carnot cycle in a thermodynamic machine etc.), vs. which losses can be reduced by ensuring good load balancing and sinusoidal currents/voltages? Heck, a lot of the losses in the Lawrence Livermore chart have nothing to do with electrical systems at all...
  • What relative improvements does the 3DFS "digital" approach bring over traditional approaches for load balancing etc.? It's not like the 3DFS gadgets cannot have any benefit at all -- but why, and to what extent, would they be better than classical approaches?
Anyway, I don't have high hopes for qualified, differentiated answers...
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #142 on: June 10, 2019, 01:55:06 pm »
Quote
What are unavoidable losses (be they due to resistive losses, stray magnetic fields in a generator, Carnot cycle in a thermodynamic machine etc.), vs. which losses can be reduced by ensuring good load balancing and sinusoidal currents/voltages? Heck, a lot of the losses in the Lawrence Livermore chart have nothing to do with electrical systems at all...

Carnot are separate losses, before electricity generation. I2R losses will always exist, however they are significantly smaller when the power is corrected in real time. Losses related to resistivity, impedance, neutral and ground currents, as well as stray magnetic field, stray and eddy current losses are all absolutely maintained at their minimal when the power is controlled and balanced in real time.

Quote
What relative improvements does the 3DFS "digital" approach bring over traditional approaches for load balancing etc.? It's not like the 3DFS gadgets cannot have any benefit at all -- but why, and to what extent, would they be better than classical approaches?

The main advantage is continuous loss prevention for all three (harmonics, reactive power and phase imbalance) as opposed to piecemeal staggered compensation. The classical approach is imprecise and not based on real time data that precisely corrects for the problem at the appropriate speed. If you look at the classical approach to power factor that is marketed as unity, it is not anywhere close to unity, which is clearly revealed when our measurement methodology is used.

Here is an example of a sampling from a chicken processing plant where the engineers were absolutely positive that their facility was at "unity power factor" all the time.



It just isn't so, and without the proper measurement (i.e. the nanoseconds that you are all making fun of) they would have gone on believing that.
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Offline madires

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #143 on: June 10, 2019, 02:24:33 pm »
Losses related to reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing exist at generation. In fact, they are the absolute worst at the point of generation. Where do you think the heat that is induced (physics, remember) is emitted? Why do you think the generator, turbine and exhaust is so hot?

I see, you are talking about losses caused by phase-shifting and so on. But those losses are only a part of the total sum of losses. There are things like wire resistance and transformer losses (even for a perfect sine wave and a PF of 1). Your argumentation based on the total sum of losses is misleading.
 
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Offline madires

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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #145 on: June 10, 2019, 02:53:14 pm »
Losses related to reactive power, harmonics and phase balancing exist at generation. In fact, they are the absolute worst at the point of generation. Where do you think the heat that is induced (physics, remember) is emitted? Why do you think the generator, turbine and exhaust is so hot?

I see, you are talking about losses caused by phase-shifting and so on. But those losses are only a part of the total sum of losses. There are things like wire resistance and transformer losses (even for a perfect sine wave and a PF of 1). Your argumentation based on the total sum of losses is misleading.

My intention is not to mislead, but to inform. As you have all mercilessly pointed out, my formal education is not in engineering and this does lead to a bit of confusion.

I am absolutely willing to clean up any misleading language, but on this forum in particular, it is difficult to tell where communication assistance ends and mocking begins. One thing that you should consider though is that there are many losses that you likely consider unavoidable, which are actually preventable, or largely preventable.

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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #146 on: June 11, 2019, 07:20:56 am »
(i.e. the nanoseconds that you are all making fun of)

Your last 2 posts aren't bad, but don't worry, your nanoseconds and 24-bits are still nonsense,

My intention is not to mislead, but to inform.

At about the same time you wrote that, on twitter you wrote:

"On the supply side, take a typical coal plant, which if outfitted with SDE will output almost double the energy while burning the same amount of coal. Same with natural gas, nuclear etc. because they are all steam."
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1138117446555095041

"For renewables and energy storage, inverters replaced by SDE enabled inverters will result in anywhere from 20-40% more output."
 :palm:
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:27:35 am by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #147 on: June 11, 2019, 08:51:39 am »
My intention is not to mislead, but to inform.

At about the same time you wrote that, on twitter you wrote:

"On the supply side, take a typical coal plant, which if outfitted with SDE will output almost double the energy while burning the same amount of coal. Same with natural gas, nuclear etc. because they are all steam."
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1138117446555095041

Most likely he do not see difference between Transmission & Distribution losses and energy conversion (heat) losses.

US is losing 5% of electric energy in the grid:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory chart shows total energy lost.
https://youtu.be/G6dlvECRfcI?t=83

FYI typical coal plant is around 40% 34% efficient. No way you can improve it's conversion efficiency using fancy "digital electricity box". Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 09:57:42 am by ogden »
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #148 on: June 11, 2019, 09:38:24 am »
FYI typical coal plant is around 40% efficient.

I think it's more like 34%. It seems unlikely that after spending 80 years chasing 0.5% improvements, that everybody missed an obvious 50%-80%.:horse:

3DFS should use their magic software to control and balance the wheels of a car in real-time, this would nearly double the output from the engine. >:D ... by keeping the cylinders in-phase.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:37:35 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #149 on: June 11, 2019, 10:07:24 am »
My intention is not to mislead, but to inform.

At about the same time you wrote that, on twitter you wrote:

"On the supply side, take a typical coal plant, which if outfitted with SDE will output almost double the energy while burning the same amount of coal. Same with natural gas, nuclear etc. because they are all steam."
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1138117446555095041

Most likely he do not see difference between Transmission & Distribution losses and energy conversion (heat) losses.

US is losing 5% of electric energy in the grid:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable

Quote
Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory chart shows total energy lost.
https://youtu.be/G6dlvECRfcI?t=83
FYI typical coal plant is around 40% 34% efficient. No way you can improve it's conversion efficiency using fancy "digital electricity box". Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.

It is okay to not know something as is clearly the case here with data acquisition. SDE uses 26 channels with 6ns inputs is a fact no matter how hard you laugh. Your lack of understanding computing is the problem here. In reality you do not need .5GHz bandwidth, because you do not care about accuracy. SDE does require such frequency because it is the proper way to extract all of the information.
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