Poll

3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?

Very useful power efficiency control products.
2 (3%)
Software Defined Electricity is the future!
1 (1.5%)
Nothing new, all been done before.
4 (6.1%)
Not sure / don't know.
5 (7.6%)
Probably mostly just snake oil / scam.
54 (81.8%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?  (Read 12253 times)

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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #150 on: June 11, 2019, 10:09:07 am »
(i.e. the nanoseconds that you are all making fun of)

Your last 2 posts aren't bad, but don't worry, your nanoseconds and 24-bits are still nonsense,

My intention is not to mislead, but to inform.

At about the same time you wrote that, on twitter you wrote:

"On the supply side, take a typical coal plant, which if outfitted with SDE will output almost double the energy while burning the same amount of coal. Same with natural gas, nuclear etc. because they are all steam."
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1138117446555095041

"For renewables and energy storage, inverters replaced by SDE enabled inverters will result in anywhere from 20-40% more output."
 :palm:

These are facts. Again, your comprehension of how is irrelevant. Clearly my engineers have a much better understanding of electricity than you or ogden do. :-//
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #151 on: June 11, 2019, 10:34:19 am »
Quote
Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.


 :-DD This really is my favorite quote. In fact, congratulations, you have made it onto our "Wall of Edison," the place where we put quotes from self-pronoucing intelligentsia that are plain moronic.

I wonder if I can find any quotes about how nobody needs a microscope because it is pointless to see anything more than with the eye...  :-DD :-DD :-DD
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #152 on: June 11, 2019, 10:41:38 am »
US is losing 5% of electric energy in the grid:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable

You must provide better argument than just baseless statement. Where's proof that grid efficiency numbers are false? What are actual numbers?
 

Offline cgroen

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #153 on: June 11, 2019, 10:41:55 am »
cdoerfler,
I think you are among the top runners for the price for "most arrogant person" on this forum.
There are so much BS in your so called "technical explanations" that it is hard to know where to start.
You are not doing yourself or your company any favors at the moment.
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #154 on: June 11, 2019, 10:43:34 am »
I wonder if I can find any quotes about how nobody needs a microscope because it is pointless to see anything more than with the eye...  :-DD :-DD :-DD

Here's your quote: Microscope is pointless in application where you need telescope or just simple ruler :)
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #155 on: June 11, 2019, 10:49:10 am »
I wonder if I can find any quotes about how nobody needs a microscope because it is pointless to see anything more than with the eye...  :-DD :-DD :-DD

Here's your quote: Microscope is pointless in application where you need telescope or just simple ruler :)

  :clap: :clap: :clap:

Electricity flows in real time. RMS does not measure in real time. Your microscope / ruler (wtf?) comparison is wholly inaccurate.

 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #156 on: June 11, 2019, 10:57:33 am »
US is losing 5% of electric energy in the grid:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable

You must provide better argument than just baseless statement. Where's proof that grid efficiency numbers are false? What are actual numbers?

I find it hard to believe that you do not understand my thesis.

These numbers are not based on PQA measurements. In fact, most of the grid is not measured by PQAs, rather the energy consumption and waste is calculated.

These numbers are calculated based on hundreds or thousands of different data sets with varying increments of time at different times and quality of measurements. So to blindly accept these numbers is silly to begin with.

Further, let's take one cycle of AC power. The waste that occurs in that single cycle is unknown to you using the 15 minute increment measurement. In fact, in your 15 minute measurement frequency, 3.34 million cycles have passed. That is a staggering amount of time where nothing is known about. 

Of course, lets take some "advanced" technology like synchrophasers, which measure 120 times a second....whoa that is fast, 2x per cycle. The same problem exists. What is happening between those two measurements. This is the fundamental problem with the shitty way electricity is measured today. It simply not adequate if accuracy is required. It is all guesses based on averages and integrals.

I have posted reports on this forum that show precisely this. No need to spam with repeats, just go find it and look.

Innovation would be easy if everybody could do it. 
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #157 on: June 11, 2019, 11:01:16 am »
Electricity flows in real time. RMS does not measure in real time.

EE quote of the year.  :-DD

Seems, due to specifics of your "business", you simply cannot change your mantra no matter what. Thank you for good laugh  :popcorn:
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #158 on: June 11, 2019, 11:05:23 am »
You must provide better argument than just baseless statement. Where's proof that grid efficiency numbers are false? What are actual numbers?
I have posted reports on this forum that show precisely this. No need to spam with repeats, just go find it and look.

You have not posted reports that reveal actual grid efficiency numbers. If you did - no need to spam indeed, provide just link to that post.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #159 on: June 11, 2019, 11:06:11 am »
Electricity flows in real time. RMS does not measure in real time.

EE quote of the year.  :-DD

Seems, due to specifics of your "business", you simply cannot change your mantra no matter what. Thank you for good laugh  :popcorn:

This is exactly the problem. We had an "expert in real time computing" come into our facility about a year ago. We demod the tech and walked him through everything. Afterward, we asked him to repeat back to us what we are doing, to be certain that we conveyed the information and he said, "Your tech is working faster than real time to inject..."

Faster than real time? That is a time machine?!

It occurred to us that this expert's understanding of real time was relegated to technological limitations of hardware, so his only way of explaining our technology is to say that it is faster than his experience. The same principle is in effect here.

Oh, perhaps fittingly, he is on the Wall of Edison as well.
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #160 on: June 11, 2019, 12:27:09 pm »
Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable

You always have this problem with time, measurement and RMS.

Nothing useful counts in an AC power measurement until at least 1 16.7ms cycle has passed. If you did measure power at 16.7ms intervals every result would be different as loads vary, so it's a good idea to take a average measurement of power over a few minutes and not just 1 cycle or less.

This doesn't have very much at all to do with the fact that the sampling of the actual waveforms will be at much smaller intervals than 1 cycle to record an accurate shape.

PF correcting does have to be done on intervals of much less than 1 mains cycle, but that doesn't have much to do with the power measurement which has to be an average over at least 1 mains cycle.

I wonder if I can find any quotes about how nobody needs a microscope because it is pointless to see anything more than with the eye...  :-DD :-DD :-DD

If you look at an ant under a microscope it might look like an elephant, but it's still an ant, it wouldn't be any heavier.
You're claiming it is an elephant, as in if you looked at a 1% loss much more closely and accurately it becomes a 50-80% loss.

Quote
Further, let's take one cycle of AC power. The waste that occurs in that single cycle is unknown to you using the 15 minute increment measurement. In fact, in your 15 minute measurement frequency, 3.34 million cycles have passed. That is a staggering amount of time where nothing is known about.

I make it a few less than that.

Quote
These are facts. Again, your comprehension of how is irrelevant. Clearly my engineers have a much better understanding of electricity than you or ogden do. :-//

I would hope so! Did your teams of engineers and research scientists see the fake claims you're posting all over the interwib and say, "We're having nothing at all to do with any of that".

« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 12:28:53 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #161 on: June 11, 2019, 12:49:43 pm »
Quote
Nothing useful counts in an AC power measurement until at least 1 16.7ms cycle has passed. If you did measure power at 16.7ms intervals every result would be different as loads vary, so it's a good idea to take a average measurement of power over a few minutes and not just 1 cycle or less.

In other words, precision is not important in your world.

The thing about correcting electricity in real time is that you need the precision data to do so. You don't have access to that sort of data so have not expanded your thinking to consider what is missing.

I on the other hand do have access to that data so recognize that your comment is completely wrong without you realizing it.

Averages do not cut it in power flow, sorry. This is a time tested reality for any science. The better the data quality, the better the results. SDE is the best data quality possible so we are able to see precisely the origins of the losses. Your averages leave you blind and therefore you are left to presume the rest. How engineery of you.

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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #162 on: June 11, 2019, 01:01:52 pm »
In other words, precision is not important in your world.
..
Averages do not cut it in power flow, sorry. This is a time tested reality for any science.

I thought I explained it quite well myself. :P
Are you suggesting they should produce GBs of data of power measurements in 6ns intervals, instead of just one number, how would they fit them all on the chart. :palm:

"You don't have access to that sort of data"

You're wasting your time with them types of replies, we often measure things much faster than you do, it's how we know your 6ns and 24 bits is nonsense.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 01:14:38 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #163 on: June 11, 2019, 01:26:07 pm »
Take nearly any modern AC power/energy IC used in electronic meters and you will see that even at 2500 samples/sec you can get better than 0.5% energy measurement accuracy. Using 4096 samples/sec CS5463 achieves 0.2%.  Also it shall be noted that electronic meters do not use averaged voltage and current RMS values. They measure momentary energy quantity for each voltage/current sample instead, then obviously accumulate (attach).

« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 01:28:11 pm by ogden »
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #164 on: June 11, 2019, 01:44:56 pm »
In other words, precision is not important in your world.
..
Averages do not cut it in power flow, sorry. This is a time tested reality for any science.

I thought I explained it quite well myself. :P
Are you suggesting they should produce GBs of data of power measurements in 6ns intervals, instead of just one number, how would they fit them all on the chart. :palm:

"You don't have access to that sort of data"

You're wasting your time with them types of replies, we often measure things much faster than you do, it's how we know your 6ns and 24 bits is nonsense.

That is either a deliberate falsehood or an ignorant statement.

You do not have the technological capability to convert analog to digital in 24bit resolution. SDE does.

Re: data, it is actually up to Terabytes of data processed a minute, but again, there is no need for that data to ever leave the machine, it is used for correction and most of it is erased within microseconds.
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #165 on: June 11, 2019, 01:45:59 pm »
Take nearly any modern AC power/energy IC used in electronic meters and you will see that even at 2500 samples/sec you can get better than 0.5% energy measurement accuracy. Using 4096 samples/sec CS5463 achieves 0.2%.  Also it shall be noted that electronic meters do not use averaged voltage and current RMS values. They measure momentary energy quantity for each voltage/current sample instead, then obviously accumulate (attach).



Great! SDE samples 4096x per half cycle. So..... you are pretty much making my point.
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #166 on: June 11, 2019, 02:07:45 pm »

You do not have the technological capability to convert analog to digital in 24bit resolution. SDE does.


 :-DD :-DD :-DD  :bullshit:

We have 32-bit ADCs. ::)

http://www.ti.com/product/ADS1263
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #167 on: June 11, 2019, 02:09:12 pm »
Great! SDE samples 4096x per half cycle. So..... you are pretty much making my point.

It is 4096*60*2 = 0.49 MSPS. Suddenly it is not nanosecond level, nor 6 nanoseconds level. It is not even microsecond level, it's 2 microseconds. Truly amazing how "fluid" are specs your product.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #168 on: June 11, 2019, 02:18:41 pm »
Great! SDE samples 4096x per half cycle. So..... you are pretty much making my point.

It is 4096*60*2 = 0.49 MSPS. Suddenly it is not nanosecond level, nor 6 nanoseconds level. It is not even microsecond level, it's 2 microseconds. Truly amazing how "fluid" are specs your product.

The fastest 24-bit ADCs I could find were 4MSPS or 250ns nowhere near 6ns.

6ns would be 166MSPS  :bullshit:
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 02:22:53 pm by Cyberdragon »
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #169 on: June 11, 2019, 02:55:18 pm »

You do not have the technological capability to convert analog to digital in 24bit resolution. SDE does.


 :-DD :-DD :-DD  :bullshit:

We have 32-bit ADCs. ::)

http://www.ti.com/product/ADS1263


Over how many channels?  :palm:
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #170 on: June 11, 2019, 03:32:45 pm »
Averages do not cut it in power flow, sorry.

You claim that the Livermore chart power measurement is not accurate because it's an average of power over 15 minutes.

"Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable"

You think their 15 minute increments should be just 6ns increments, how would that work ?

You'll soon see you'll have to average lots of the 6ns power measurements together for it to make any sense.

Do you have any idea what you're on about, nope!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:05:26 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #171 on: June 11, 2019, 03:45:01 pm »
Averages do not cut it in power flow, sorry.

You claim that the Livermore chart power measurement is not accurate because it's an average of power over 15 minutes.

"Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable"

You think their 15 minute increments should be just 6ns increments, how would that work ?

You'll soon see you'll have to average lots of the 6ns measurements together for it to make any sense.

Do you have any idea what you're on about, nope!

I have given you all the answers, you are down a rabbit hole not internalizing them

The key here is not to transfer all that data, but to analyze it in the device for the purpose of correcting the power. These devices are edge computers. It is an absurd idea to transfer all of that data, yes.
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Offline ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #172 on: June 11, 2019, 04:03:27 pm »
SDE samples 4096x per half cycle.

That's 2 * 4096 * 60 Hz = 491 kSamples/s.
How does that line up with your stated 6 ns sampling interval?!

I still struggle to see how either time resolution would provide useful information on mains current and voltage (rather than just heavy oversampling). But for starters, it would be good to at least get consistent numbers on what 3DFS does sample. Could you summarize that please? How many channels do you record/process, each of them at which sampling interval and bit depth? Thanks.
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #173 on: June 11, 2019, 04:10:50 pm »
SDE samples 4096x per half cycle.

That's 2 * 4096 * 60 Hz = 491 kSamples/s.
How does that line up with your stated 6 ns sampling interval?!

I still struggle to see how either time resolution would provide useful information on mains current and voltage (rather than just heavy oversampling). But for starters, it would be good to at least get consistent numbers on what 3DFS does sample. Could you summarize that please? How many channels do you record/process, each of them at which sampling interval and bit depth? Thanks.

26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution

The sampling is automatic based on the need, the above is the average. If there is a lot of activity, the sampling ramps up, less activity, does not sample as much.

The goal of data acquisition is to build the most accurate model of the power flow, so the valuable data is extracted to build the model and the rest >99% is erased after a couple of microseconds.
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #174 on: June 11, 2019, 04:31:24 pm »
SDE samples 4096x per half cycle.

That's 2 * 4096 * 60 Hz = 491 kSamples/s.
How does that line up with your stated 6 ns sampling interval?!

26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution

1 MSPS? It's 1e6/120 = 8333.33 samples per half cycle. Just few posts ago you claimed 4096 samples per half cycle. Wow. You shall get at least consistency of your preaching right.

Seems, you have no clue how sampling interval relates to sampling frequency and bandwidth of sampled signal. Instead you call those who laugh about your nanoseconds where you have by three orders of magnitude slower sampling, moronic:

Quote
Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.
This really is my favorite quote. In fact, congratulations, you have made it onto our "Wall of Edison," the place where we put quotes from self-pronoucing intelligentsia that are plain moronic.

In return w/o regret I can say that you are fine example of Dunning Kruger effect.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 05:04:46 pm by ogden »
 


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