Poll

3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?

Very useful power efficiency control products.
2 (3%)
Software Defined Electricity is the future!
1 (1.5%)
Nothing new, all been done before.
4 (6.1%)
Not sure / don't know.
5 (7.6%)
Probably mostly just snake oil / scam.
54 (81.8%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?  (Read 20403 times)

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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #100 on: June 11, 2019, 07:20:56 am »
(i.e. the nanoseconds that you are all making fun of)

Your last 2 posts aren't bad, but don't worry, your nanoseconds and 24-bits are still nonsense,

My intention is not to mislead, but to inform.

At about the same time you wrote that, on twitter you wrote:

"On the supply side, take a typical coal plant, which if outfitted with SDE will output almost double the energy while burning the same amount of coal. Same with natural gas, nuclear etc. because they are all steam."
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1138117446555095041

"For renewables and energy storage, inverters replaced by SDE enabled inverters will result in anywhere from 20-40% more output."
 :palm:
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:27:35 am by StillTrying »
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #101 on: June 11, 2019, 08:51:39 am »
My intention is not to mislead, but to inform.

At about the same time you wrote that, on twitter you wrote:

"On the supply side, take a typical coal plant, which if outfitted with SDE will output almost double the energy while burning the same amount of coal. Same with natural gas, nuclear etc. because they are all steam."
https://twitter.com/doerfler/status/1138117446555095041

Most likely he do not see difference between Transmission & Distribution losses and energy conversion (heat) losses.

US is losing 5% of electric energy in the grid:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory chart shows total energy lost.
https://youtu.be/G6dlvECRfcI?t=83

FYI typical coal plant is around 40% 34% efficient. No way you can improve it's conversion efficiency using fancy "digital electricity box". Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 09:57:42 am by ogden »
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #102 on: June 11, 2019, 09:38:24 am »
FYI typical coal plant is around 40% efficient.

I think it's more like 34%. It seems unlikely that after spending 80 years chasing 0.5% improvements, that everybody missed an obvious 50%-80%.:horse:

3DFS should use their magic software to control and balance the wheels of a car in real-time, this would nearly double the output from the engine. >:D ... by keeping the cylinders in-phase.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:37:35 pm by StillTrying »
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #103 on: June 11, 2019, 10:41:38 am »
US is losing 5% of electric energy in the grid:
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable

You must provide better argument than just baseless statement. Where's proof that grid efficiency numbers are false? What are actual numbers?
 

Offline cgroen

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #104 on: June 11, 2019, 10:41:55 am »
cdoerfler,
I think you are among the top runners for the price for "most arrogant person" on this forum.
There are so much BS in your so called "technical explanations" that it is hard to know where to start.
You are not doing yourself or your company any favors at the moment.
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #105 on: June 11, 2019, 10:43:34 am »
I wonder if I can find any quotes about how nobody needs a microscope because it is pointless to see anything more than with the eye...  :-DD :-DD :-DD

Here's your quote: Microscope is pointless in application where you need telescope or just simple ruler :)
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #106 on: June 11, 2019, 11:01:16 am »
Electricity flows in real time. RMS does not measure in real time.

EE quote of the year.  :-DD

Seems, due to specifics of your "business", you simply cannot change your mantra no matter what. Thank you for good laugh  :popcorn:
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #107 on: June 11, 2019, 11:05:23 am »
You must provide better argument than just baseless statement. Where's proof that grid efficiency numbers are false? What are actual numbers?
I have posted reports on this forum that show precisely this. No need to spam with repeats, just go find it and look.

You have not posted reports that reveal actual grid efficiency numbers. If you did - no need to spam indeed, provide just link to that post.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #108 on: June 11, 2019, 12:27:09 pm »
Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable

You always have this problem with time, measurement and RMS.

Nothing useful counts in an AC power measurement until at least 1 16.7ms cycle has passed. If you did measure power at 16.7ms intervals every result would be different as loads vary, so it's a good idea to take a average measurement of power over a few minutes and not just 1 cycle or less.

This doesn't have very much at all to do with the fact that the sampling of the actual waveforms will be at much smaller intervals than 1 cycle to record an accurate shape.

PF correcting does have to be done on intervals of much less than 1 mains cycle, but that doesn't have much to do with the power measurement which has to be an average over at least 1 mains cycle.

I wonder if I can find any quotes about how nobody needs a microscope because it is pointless to see anything more than with the eye...  :-DD :-DD :-DD

If you look at an ant under a microscope it might look like an elephant, but it's still an ant, it wouldn't be any heavier.
You're claiming it is an elephant, as in if you looked at a 1% loss much more closely and accurately it becomes a 50-80% loss.

Quote
Further, let's take one cycle of AC power. The waste that occurs in that single cycle is unknown to you using the 15 minute increment measurement. In fact, in your 15 minute measurement frequency, 3.34 million cycles have passed. That is a staggering amount of time where nothing is known about.

I make it a few less than that.

Quote
These are facts. Again, your comprehension of how is irrelevant. Clearly my engineers have a much better understanding of electricity than you or ogden do. :-//

I would hope so! Did your teams of engineers and research scientists see the fake claims you're posting all over the interwib and say, "We're having nothing at all to do with any of that".

« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 12:28:53 pm by StillTrying »
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #109 on: June 11, 2019, 01:01:52 pm »
In other words, precision is not important in your world.
..
Averages do not cut it in power flow, sorry. This is a time tested reality for any science.

I thought I explained it quite well myself. :P
Are you suggesting they should produce GBs of data of power measurements in 6ns intervals, instead of just one number, how would they fit them all on the chart. :palm:

"You don't have access to that sort of data"

You're wasting your time with them types of replies, we often measure things much faster than you do, it's how we know your 6ns and 24 bits is nonsense.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 01:14:38 pm by StillTrying »
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #110 on: June 11, 2019, 01:26:07 pm »
Take nearly any modern AC power/energy IC used in electronic meters and you will see that even at 2500 samples/sec you can get better than 0.5% energy measurement accuracy. Using 4096 samples/sec CS5463 achieves 0.2%.  Also it shall be noted that electronic meters do not use averaged voltage and current RMS values. They measure momentary energy quantity for each voltage/current sample instead, then obviously accumulate (attach).

« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 01:28:11 pm by ogden »
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #111 on: June 11, 2019, 02:07:45 pm »

You do not have the technological capability to convert analog to digital in 24bit resolution. SDE does.


 :-DD :-DD :-DD  :bullshit:

We have 32-bit ADCs. ::)

http://www.ti.com/product/ADS1263
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #112 on: June 11, 2019, 02:09:12 pm »
Great! SDE samples 4096x per half cycle. So..... you are pretty much making my point.

It is 4096*60*2 = 0.49 MSPS. Suddenly it is not nanosecond level, nor 6 nanoseconds level. It is not even microsecond level, it's 2 microseconds. Truly amazing how "fluid" are specs your product.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #113 on: June 11, 2019, 02:18:41 pm »
Great! SDE samples 4096x per half cycle. So..... you are pretty much making my point.

It is 4096*60*2 = 0.49 MSPS. Suddenly it is not nanosecond level, nor 6 nanoseconds level. It is not even microsecond level, it's 2 microseconds. Truly amazing how "fluid" are specs your product.

The fastest 24-bit ADCs I could find were 4MSPS or 250ns nowhere near 6ns.

6ns would be 166MSPS  :bullshit:
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 02:22:53 pm by Cyberdragon »
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #114 on: June 11, 2019, 03:32:45 pm »
Averages do not cut it in power flow, sorry.

You claim that the Livermore chart power measurement is not accurate because it's an average of power over 15 minutes.

"Yes, please go on about how this self reported utility data using 15 minute increments (at best) can accurately reveal the waste that occurs. To believe that such inaccurate data can provide a precise number on anything is what is laughable"

You think their 15 minute increments should be just 6ns increments, how would that work ?

You'll soon see you'll have to average lots of the 6ns power measurements together for it to make any sense.

Do you have any idea what you're on about, nope!
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:05:26 pm by StillTrying »
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Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #115 on: June 11, 2019, 04:03:27 pm »
SDE samples 4096x per half cycle.

That's 2 * 4096 * 60 Hz = 491 kSamples/s.
How does that line up with your stated 6 ns sampling interval?!

I still struggle to see how either time resolution would provide useful information on mains current and voltage (rather than just heavy oversampling). But for starters, it would be good to at least get consistent numbers on what 3DFS does sample. Could you summarize that please? How many channels do you record/process, each of them at which sampling interval and bit depth? Thanks.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #116 on: June 11, 2019, 04:31:24 pm »
SDE samples 4096x per half cycle.

That's 2 * 4096 * 60 Hz = 491 kSamples/s.
How does that line up with your stated 6 ns sampling interval?!

26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution

1 MSPS? It's 1e6/120 = 8333.33 samples per half cycle. Just few posts ago you claimed 4096 samples per half cycle. Wow. You shall get at least consistency of your preaching right.

Seems, you have no clue how sampling interval relates to sampling frequency and bandwidth of sampled signal. Instead you call those who laugh about your nanoseconds where you have by three orders of magnitude slower sampling, moronic:

Quote
Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.
This really is my favorite quote. In fact, congratulations, you have made it onto our "Wall of Edison," the place where we put quotes from self-pronoucing intelligentsia that are plain moronic.

In return w/o regret I can say that you are fine example of Dunning Kruger effect.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 05:04:46 pm by ogden »
 

Online Kean

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #117 on: June 11, 2019, 06:10:32 pm »
In fact, in your 15 minute measurement frequency, 3.34 million cycles have passed.

Nope.  15 minutes = 900 seconds. 900 s x 60 Hz = 54,000 full cycles.  You multiplied by 60 too many times.

26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution


Again, incorrect use of multiplication.

You are clearly not measuring 26 input channels with one 24 bit ADC at 6ns intervals (167 MSPS).  As mentioned above there is no 24-bit ADC that can handle that.  You may be doing low Mhz rates per parameter, but that wouldn't be 6ns intervals.  And you want to get the most of the 24-bits, so I wouldn't think you'd want to try multiplex the ADC inputs that fast.  Even at 4096 samples per half cycle (<0.5 MSPS) it is most likely using a separate ADC per measured parameter.

Your own white paper states:
Quote
The technology is sampling/deriving 26 parameters using current and voltage samples in 24 bit resolution at MHz sampling rates on each phase, neutral and ground, through a precision, software controlled oversampling methodology.

So with 3 phases you are really only measuring current and voltage on 4 or 5 circuits, which is 8 or 10 total measured parameters.  Most of your "26 channels" are actually derived values (presumably all the standard things that can be derived from V, I, & t).  Sure those extra derived parameters may be calculated and processed in real time, but that has nothing to do with your 24-bit sample rate.

In addition your white paper also states it is oversampling.  I hope you understand what that actually means, considering how much flack you are giving the power generation industry use of "guesses based on averages and integrals".

This kind of sales talk (obfuscation) you keep spouting is why the engineers here keep saying your statements and replies are nonsense.
 
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #118 on: June 11, 2019, 06:23:47 pm »
How many channels do you record/process, each of them at which sampling interval and bit depth?

There's 3 current transformers and 3 current/voltage wires so about 6 ADC channels, there's nothing else to measure!

So we can safely ignore 3DFS's claims of 26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution.
They derive things such as frequency and then count it as a MHz 24 bit channel.

ED: The clip on CTs will probability be about 0.3% accuracy if they're good so about 8.5 bits. :)

#Bonkers
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:16:59 pm by StillTrying »
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Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #119 on: June 11, 2019, 06:32:29 pm »
Quote
Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.

This really is my favorite quote. In fact, congratulations, you have made it onto our "Wall of Edison," the place where we put quotes from self-pronoucing intelligentsia that are plain moronic.

Your increasingly aggressive and demeaning stance does not play well with the constant contradictions in even the few hard facts you provide.

Within a single day, you have claimed sampling intervals of 6ns, 1µs, and 2µs. We don't even have to get into the discussion whether there is value in any of these (they all seem much faster than necessary to achieve your purpose, and the 24 bit ADC resolution is even worse overkill).  As long as you cannot give us consistent information on even these trivial facts, your credibility is zero. And so is your standing when you choose to ridicule other forum members.
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #120 on: June 11, 2019, 07:41:43 pm »
We don't even have to get into the discussion whether there is value in any of these (they all seem much faster than necessary to achieve your purpose, and the 24 bit ADC resolution is even worse overkill).

Fast sample rate indeed seems like unnecessary overkill due to limited frequency content of AC mains current/voltage "signal", even when heavily distorted. I can't say the same about 24 bit ADC. Meters shall meet their accuracy in wide dynamic range. Think of TV in standby consuming 1W, then electric stove consuming 10KW. Consumption of both shall be measured precisely, with specified accuracy. As an example here's ADC designed for energy meters, 24bits, max 32KSPS: http://www.ti.com/product/ADS131M04
 

Offline Dubbie

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3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #121 on: June 11, 2019, 07:50:31 pm »
This guy reminds me of the Steorn guys.
Incredible arrogance mixed with incredible ignorance. Loads of talk, loads of reasons why they can’t explain crucial points of their claims.

They easily fool gullible journalists and non technical management types who climb on board with “I think these guys are real guys!” Then after years of failures to demonstrate their core claim, they quietly go under and their investors shuffle away with red faces and an extreme reluctance to talk about “that time when they lost their money investing in a perpetual motion machine.”

This is just a perpetual motion machine in different makeup.

(Edit) The fact that this moron tries to keep selling this crap in technical forums probably means that he has drunk the kool-aid and is a full blown believer himself. Usually the conman avoids those qualified to call out his bullshit.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:53:58 pm by Dubbie »
 

Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #122 on: June 11, 2019, 08:09:08 pm »
Fast sample rate indeed seems like unnecessary overkill due to limited frequency content of AC mains current/voltage "signal", even when heavily distorted. I can't say the same about 24 bit ADC. Meters shall meet their accuracy in wide dynamic range. Think of TV in standby consuming 1W, then electric stove consuming 10KW. Consumption of both shall be measured precisely, with specified accuracy.

No, I don't think you need a wide dynamic range for power factor correction and load balancing. If only 1W of standby power is drawn from my 10kW circuit, power factor corrections etc. just don't matter at all.

Quote
As an example here's ADC designed for energy meters, 24bits, max 32KSPS: http://www.ti.com/product/ADS131M04

If you want accurate total energy, integrating precisely over a wide range of currents may be more relevant. 7 digits still seems excessive?

Note the 32 kHz sampling rate, btw. That's a far cry from even the slowest rate cdoerfler has claimed (1 MHz). I would venture a bet that 3DFS sample at much less than 24 bits, and then calculate various values at 24 bit resolution. Maybe an 8 bit ADC at 1 MHz, from which some gliding averages and secondary values are calculated at 24 bits? That's a cheap way to throw up some smoke and mirrors and claim "24 bit, 1 MHz".
 

Online ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #123 on: June 11, 2019, 08:15:14 pm »
Might I remind you that we are acquiring error free data, so while yes it is only measuring current and voltage, the error free data and calculations allow SDE to receive 24 bit resolution on each of the parameters (i.e. reactive power, phase angle, harmonics, etc.).

Your suggestion that we are using a 24 bit ADC chip is also based on the presumption that AD conversion is separate from the data processing, when in fact it is not, it is all done simultaneously on 26 channels for individual parameters. All 26 channels are measured individually on each phase, neutral and ground, not all together.

 
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Offline ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #124 on: June 11, 2019, 08:27:42 pm »
No, I don't think you need a wide dynamic range for power factor correction and load balancing. If only 1W of standby power is drawn from my 10kW circuit, power factor corrections etc. just don't matter at all.

Perhaps you missed other functions of the product. Quote: "Digital Multiparametric Measurement of Electricity to provide visibility with a new layer of electricity data and analytics".

Quote
If you want accurate total energy, integrating precisely over a wide range of currents may be more relevant. 7 digits still seems excessive?

As it appears - no. In addition to 24bits resolution, that "energy-aimed" ADC have PGA with gains 1, 2, 4 ... up to 128. If interested - TI have some appnotes where they proivide loads of useful information including reasoning behind their design decisions.

[edit] Hardly any 24bit ADC have 24bit ENOB. Usually when I hear "24 bit ADC", I think "around 21 useful bits, 22 bits at best".

Quote
Note the 32 kHz sampling rate, btw. That's a far cry from even the slowest rate cdoerfler has claimed (1 MHz).

Right. Agreed. At 32Khz that (delta-sigma) ADC have reduced resolution. Nominal, design target sample rate is 4KSPS.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 08:33:26 pm by ogden »
 


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