Poll

3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?

Very useful power efficiency control products.
2 (3%)
Software Defined Electricity is the future!
1 (1.5%)
Nothing new, all been done before.
4 (6.1%)
Not sure / don't know.
5 (7.6%)
Probably mostly just snake oil / scam.
54 (81.8%)

Total Members Voted: 60

Author Topic: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?  (Read 12208 times)

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Kean

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #175 on: June 11, 2019, 06:10:32 pm »
In fact, in your 15 minute measurement frequency, 3.34 million cycles have passed.

Nope.  15 minutes = 900 seconds. 900 s x 60 Hz = 54,000 full cycles.  You multiplied by 60 too many times.

26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution

Again, incorrect use of multiplication.

You are clearly not measuring 26 input channels with one 24 bit ADC at 6ns intervals (167 MSPS).  As mentioned above there is no 24-bit ADC that can handle that.  You may be doing low Mhz rates per parameter, but that wouldn't be 6ns intervals.  And you want to get the most of the 24-bits, so I wouldn't think you'd want to try multiplex the ADC inputs that fast.  Even at 4096 samples per half cycle (<0.5 MSPS) it is most likely using a separate ADC per measured parameter.

Quote
The technology is sampling/deriving 26 parameters using current and voltage samples in 24 bit resolution at MHz sampling rates on each phase, neutral and ground, through a precision, software controlled oversampling methodology.

So with 3 phases you are really only measuring current and voltage on 4 or 5 circuits, which is 8 or 10 total measured parameters.  Most of your "26 channels" are actually derived values (presumably all the standard things that can be derived from V, I, & t).  Sure those extra derived parameters may be calculated and processed in real time, but that has nothing to do with your 24-bit sample rate.

In addition your white paper also states it is oversampling.  I hope you understand what that actually means, considering how much flack you are giving the power generation industry use of "guesses based on averages and integrals".

This kind of sales talk (obfuscation) you keep spouting is why the engineers here keep saying your statements and replies are nonsense.

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StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #176 on: June 11, 2019, 06:23:47 pm »
How many channels do you record/process, each of them at which sampling interval and bit depth?

There's 3 current transformers and 3 current/voltage wires so about 6 ADC channels, there's nothing else to measure!

So we can safely ignore 3DFS's claims of 26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution.
They derive things such as frequency and then count it as a MHz 24 bit channel.

ED: The clip on CTs will probability be about 0.3% accuracy if they're good so about 8.5 bits.

#Bonkers
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:16:59 pm by StillTrying »
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.

ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #177 on: June 11, 2019, 06:32:29 pm »
Quote
Nanoseconds are incredibly laughable indeed. You do not need 0.5GHz bandwidth to measure distortion of <=60Hz signal in a cables that barely can transmit anything above 1MHz.

This really is my favorite quote. In fact, congratulations, you have made it onto our "Wall of Edison," the place where we put quotes from self-pronoucing intelligentsia that are plain moronic.

Your increasingly aggressive and demeaning stance does not play well with the constant contradictions in even the few hard facts you provide.

Within a single day, you have claimed sampling intervals of 6ns, 1µs, and 2µs. We don't even have to get into the discussion whether there is value in any of these (they all seem much faster than necessary to achieve your purpose, and the 24 bit ADC resolution is even worse overkill).  As long as you cannot give us consistent information on even these trivial facts, your credibility is zero. And so is your standing when you choose to ridicule other forum members.

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ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #178 on: June 11, 2019, 07:41:43 pm »
We don't even have to get into the discussion whether there is value in any of these (they all seem much faster than necessary to achieve your purpose, and the 24 bit ADC resolution is even worse overkill).

Fast sample rate indeed seems like unnecessary overkill due to limited frequency content of AC mains current/voltage "signal", even when heavily distorted. I can't say the same about 24 bit ADC. Meters shall meet their accuracy in wide dynamic range. Think of TV in standby consuming 1W, then electric stove consuming 10KW. Consumption of both shall be measured precisely, with specified accuracy. As an example here's ADC designed for energy meters, 24bits, max 32KSPS: http://www.ti.com/product/ADS131M04

Dubbie

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3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #179 on: June 11, 2019, 07:50:31 pm »
This guy reminds me of the Steorn guys.
Incredible arrogance mixed with incredible ignorance. Loads of talk, loads of reasons why they can’t explain crucial points of their claims.

They easily fool gullible journalists and non technical management types who climb on board with “I think these guys are real guys!” Then after years of failures to demonstrate their core claim, they quietly go under and their investors shuffle away with red faces and an extreme reluctance to talk about “that time when they lost their money investing in a perpetual motion machine.”

This is just a perpetual motion machine in different makeup.

(Edit) The fact that this moron tries to keep selling this crap in technical forums probably means that he has drunk the kool-aid and is a full blown believer himself. Usually the conman avoids those qualified to call out his bullshit.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 07:53:58 pm by Dubbie »

cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #180 on: June 11, 2019, 08:04:40 pm »
How many channels do you record/process, each of them at which sampling interval and bit depth?

There's 3 current transformers and 3 current/voltage wires so about 6 ADC channels, there's nothing else to measure!

So we can safely ignore 3DFS's claims of 26 channels, each with MHz frequency, 24 bit resolution.
They derive things such as frequency and then count it as a MHz 24 bit channel.

ED: The clip on CTs will probability be about 0.3% accuracy if they're good so about 8.5 bits.

#Bonkers

Wow, based on the uptick in engineering speak, it appears you all feel like you are circling for the kill, except Might I remind you that we are acquiring error free data, so while yes it is only measuring current and voltage, the error free data and calculations allow SDE to receive 24 bit resolution on each of the parameters (i.e. reactive power, phase angle, harmonics, etc.).

Your suggestion that we are using a 24 bit ADC chip is also based on the presumption that AD conversion is separate from the data processing, when in fact it is not, it is all done simultaneously on 26 channels for individual parameters. All 26 channels are measured individually on each phase, neutral and ground, not all together.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers

ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #181 on: June 11, 2019, 08:09:08 pm »
Fast sample rate indeed seems like unnecessary overkill due to limited frequency content of AC mains current/voltage "signal", even when heavily distorted. I can't say the same about 24 bit ADC. Meters shall meet their accuracy in wide dynamic range. Think of TV in standby consuming 1W, then electric stove consuming 10KW. Consumption of both shall be measured precisely, with specified accuracy.

No, I don't think you need a wide dynamic range for power factor correction and load balancing. If only 1W of standby power is drawn from my 10kW circuit, power factor corrections etc. just don't matter at all.

Quote
As an example here's ADC designed for energy meters, 24bits, max 32KSPS: http://www.ti.com/product/ADS131M04

If you want accurate total energy, integrating precisely over a wide range of currents may be more relevant. 7 digits still seems excessive?

Note the 32 kHz sampling rate, btw. That's a far cry from even the slowest rate cdoerfler has claimed (1 MHz). I would venture a bet that 3DFS sample at much less than 24 bits, and then calculate various values at 24 bit resolution. Maybe an 8 bit ADC at 1 MHz, from which some gliding averages and secondary values are calculated at 24 bits? That's a cheap way to throw up some smoke and mirrors and claim "24 bit, 1 MHz".

ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #182 on: June 11, 2019, 08:15:14 pm »
Might I remind you that we are acquiring error free data, so while yes it is only measuring current and voltage, the error free data and calculations allow SDE to receive 24 bit resolution on each of the parameters (i.e. reactive power, phase angle, harmonics, etc.).

Your suggestion that we are using a 24 bit ADC chip is also based on the presumption that AD conversion is separate from the data processing, when in fact it is not, it is all done simultaneously on 26 channels for individual parameters. All 26 channels are measured individually on each phase, neutral and ground, not all together.

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ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #183 on: June 11, 2019, 08:27:42 pm »
No, I don't think you need a wide dynamic range for power factor correction and load balancing. If only 1W of standby power is drawn from my 10kW circuit, power factor corrections etc. just don't matter at all.

Perhaps you missed other functions of the product. Quote: "Digital Multiparametric Measurement of Electricity to provide visibility with a new layer of electricity data and analytics".

Quote
If you want accurate total energy, integrating precisely over a wide range of currents may be more relevant. 7 digits still seems excessive?

As it appears - no. In addition to 24bits resolution, that "energy-aimed" ADC have PGA with gains 1, 2, 4 ... up to 128. If interested - TI have some appnotes where they proivide loads of useful information including reasoning behind their design decisions.

 Hardly any 24bit ADC have 24bit ENOB. Usually when I hear "24 bit ADC", I think "around 21 useful bits, 22 bits at best".

Quote
Note the 32 kHz sampling rate, btw. That's a far cry from even the slowest rate cdoerfler has claimed (1 MHz).

Right. Agreed. At 32Khz that (delta-sigma) ADC have reduced resolution. Nominal, design target sample rate is 4KSPS.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 08:33:26 pm by ogden »

ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #184 on: June 11, 2019, 08:32:57 pm »
Perhaps you missed other functions of the product. Quote: "Digital Multiparametric Measurement of Electricity to provide visibility with a new layer of electricity data and analytics".

Ahh, right. "A new layer of analytics" can never have enough ADC resolution.
I want my electricity measured in True Color and Dolby THC!

Kean

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #185 on: June 11, 2019, 08:48:20 pm »
Might I remind you that we are acquiring error free data

Can you please explain what you mean by "error free data"?

Maybe we misunderstand what you mean by it.  As explained previously, there is no such thing as "error free" when measuring physical phenomenon (apart from some rather exceptional circumstances).  There is calibration error, quantisation error, and noise.  Errors will then accumulate in any derived parameters.  Read up on ENOB as mentioned by ogden.

"Garbage in, garbage out" as they say.

Quote
so while yes it is only measuring current and voltage, the error free data and calculations allow SDE to receive 24 bit resolution on each of the parameters (i.e. reactive power, phase angle, harmonics, etc.).

Yeah, if you have 24-bit inputs then unless you do your math wrong you can retain 24-bit (math)* resolution (more or less) with the derived parameters.

Quote
Your suggestion that we are using a 24 bit ADC chip is also based on the presumption that AD conversion is separate from the data processing, when in fact it is not, it is all done simultaneously on 26 channels for individual parameters. All 26 channels are measured individually on each phase, neutral and ground, not all together.

Um, what?

It was you stating that you're doing 24-bit sampling at MHz rates (it is also in your white paper).

We're happy for you to correct us if we have assumed something wrong, but be professional and give us some facts if you would like to get treated professionally in return.

OK, so what I understand from this response is that you sample the 2 parameters on all circuits in parallel with multiple ADCs, and I assume you then do the calculations for derived parameters "simultaneously" with an FPGA.

As you state there are only two parameters you can actually measure per phase/neutral/ground circuit - i.e. voltage and current.  The rest of your 26 derived parameters are going to be calculated from those plus elapsed time.

Just because you may be collecting 26 parameters at a high rate doesn't mean you're sampling at the speed you have constantly implied.

You have demonstrated with your own words that the 6ns sampling interval was nonsense all along.

* edited to add "(math)" - rather unlikely you can calculate derived parameters like PF, phase angle, etc to actual 24 bit resolution (i.e 6+ digits!).
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 08:55:55 pm by Kean »

cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #186 on: June 12, 2019, 10:05:17 am »
Quote
Can you please explain what you mean by "error free data"?

Maybe we misunderstand what you mean by it.  As explained previously, there is no such thing as "error free" when measuring physical phenomenon (apart from some rather exceptional circumstances).  There is calibration error, quantisation error, and noise.  Errors will then accumulate in any derived parameters.  Read up on ENOB as mentioned by ogden.

"Garbage in, garbage out" as they say.

Yes there is error upon data acquisition, however the intelligent sensing approach uses the process of oversampling to acquire way more data than is needed and instantly perform all of the data error processing (i.e. conversion, quantization, jitter, noise, calibration etc.) within 4 ns to distill to the precise, error free data point so that the 24bits is a true 24 bits for each parameter on each channel, all perfectly synchronized together.

This is called Real-Time modeling of electricity. It is why there is never a point in power flow where the exact data is not known. It is also why the methods of measurement that you are all espousing is comically inappropriate with respect to accuracy.
-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers

Kean

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #187 on: June 12, 2019, 11:18:45 am »
Yes there is error upon data acquisition, however the intelligent sensing approach uses the process of oversampling to acquire way more data than is needed

So it uses oversampling and averaging to filter the input.  Whoop-de-doo!
That is still not "error free", it is just a technique to try improve the SNR.

I thought you said yesterday that using averaging produces "guesses".

Quote
and instantly perform all of the data error processing (i.e. conversion, quantization, jitter, noise, calibration etc.) within 4 ns to distill to the precise, error free data point so that the 24bits is a true 24 bits for each parameter on each channel, all perfectly synchronized together.

Sorry, but parroting the same marketing nonsense over and over without any substance behind it doesn't make it true.

I tried to engage, but it is clear you just can't help yourself.

cdoerfler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #188 on: June 12, 2019, 11:23:52 am »
Yes there is error upon data acquisition, however the intelligent sensing approach uses the process of oversampling to acquire way more data than is needed

So it uses oversampling and averaging to filter the input.  Whoop-de-doo!
That is still not "error free", it is just a technique to try improve the SNR.

I thought you said yesterday that using averaging produces "guesses".

Quote
and instantly perform all of the data error processing (i.e. conversion, quantization, jitter, noise, calibration etc.) within 4 ns to distill to the precise, error free data point so that the 24bits is a true 24 bits for each parameter on each channel, all perfectly synchronized together.

Sorry, but parroting the same marketing nonsense over and over without any substance behind it doesn't make it true.

I tried to engage, but it is clear you just can't help yourself.

I never said averages, you did.

-Cofounder of 3DFS Software-Defined Electricity & SAM Controllers

ebastler

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #189 on: June 12, 2019, 11:46:50 am »
Chris, what I would really love to understand is why you keep posting here. You have nothing lose here, but you can't win with this audience either.

Are you using this forum as your practice ground, trying out various lines and approaches with a difficult crowd? (Hint: The aggressive and demeaning angle is not so effective...) Do you just want to let off some steam, which you can't do in front of potential customers or investors? Or does this feel like fun? (How?)

I'm truly puzzled.

ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #190 on: June 12, 2019, 12:44:52 pm »
Are you using this forum as your practice ground, trying out various lines and approaches with a difficult crowd?

Let me guess... He is using this forum because it keeps popping-up in internet search results. If skeptics are uncontested, then general public may draw unfortunate conclusions. He has to defend product by all means. This is nothing new here, example: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/bullshit-texzon-wireless-power/
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 01:01:21 pm by ogden »

newbrain

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #191 on: June 12, 2019, 02:59:45 pm »
I never said averages, you did.
Oversampling

But, maybe, this is more relevant.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 03:01:50 pm by newbrain »
Nandemo wa shiranai wa yo, shitteru koto dake.

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Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #192 on: June 12, 2019, 03:05:33 pm »
Are you using this forum as your practice ground, trying out various lines and approaches with a difficult crowd?

Let me guess... He is using this forum because it keeps popping-up in internet search results. If skeptics are uncontested, then general public may draw unfortunate conclusions. He has to defend product by all means. This is nothing new here, example: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/bullshit-texzon-wireless-power/

All posting here will do is make it worse. We are scambusters (aka "qualified personel" or real engineers). And Dave isn't the only Youtuber here should we choose to video debunk (which would get a ton of search hits). The only thing scams should do when they end up in this section is run and hide.

Warning! Warning! Bullshit level exceeding 80%! *klaxon*
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions

Cubdriver

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #193 on: June 12, 2019, 06:37:36 pm »
After reading through this entire thread of word salad from 3DFS, all that comes to mind is Bea Arthur as the Roman unemployment clerk in History of the World Pt I when she distilled Comicus' profession (Stand Up Philosopher) into a somewhat more 'raw' descriptive term...

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...

StillTrying

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #194 on: June 14, 2019, 03:54:36 pm »

I've read some of it again for the giggles, I'm hungry for some more salad.
CML+  That took much longer than I thought it would.

Yansi

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #195 on: June 14, 2019, 04:04:40 pm »
Unfortunately, I do not like salad, so I vote for locking this thread and banning the troll.

Instead of helping others, users waste time and effort here.

ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #196 on: June 14, 2019, 04:21:05 pm »
Unfortunately, I do not like salad, so I vote for locking this thread and banning the troll.

No. Truth shall be told so people who are not knowledgeable enough get chances to make their own decisions about this "product".

« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 04:23:38 pm by ogden »

Yansi

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #197 on: June 14, 2019, 04:56:10 pm »
People not knowledgeable enough will not likely make a decision based on this thread, just because it is full of this salad.

ogden

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #198 on: June 14, 2019, 07:19:07 pm »
People not knowledgeable enough will not likely make a decision based on this thread, just because it is full of this salad.

Maybe. Whatever. Please do not end this fun by banning him, ok?

Cyberdragon

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Re: 3DFS's VectorQ Digital Electricity Technology ?
« Reply #199 on: June 14, 2019, 08:06:16 pm »

I've read some of it again for the giggles, I'm hungry for some more salad.

Salad? Nah, his posts are a technobabble smoothie. Even AvE is easier to comprehend.
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions

Smf