"A British Audiophile" compares audio interconnects

[TERRA Operative]

Would be nice if someone with access to a 20Hz to 20kHz LCR meter got his hands on one of these cables, just to see what the numbers say.

Do "20Hz to 20kHz LCR meters" exist? A few minutes with the LC equations will show you that the size of components resonating at those frequencies are quite rare and unusual... Of course it's not the case if you add R. LCR meters generally measure at line frequency (50/60 Hz), twice line (100/120 Hz), 1kHz and maybe 10kHz. If you want to measure impedance through the audio band you need to use a bridge with external input from a signal generator.

My HP 4145A does 100Hz to 10kHZ, and my HP 4275A will get you from 10kHz to 10MHz, so that is a good range to work with.
I don't currently have anything that will go below 100Hz though. I just checked my Der-ee DE-5000 handheld LCR meter and it does 100Hz to 100kHz. Might be a little difficult to go below 100Hz.

[vk6zgo]

Remember this is audiofoolary so the screen is only connected at one end to stop noise being transferred,the connection from braid to earth will be made on the other end of the cable

It's certainly "foolary" to blindly repeat practices from one area (balanced circuits) to another (power), cargo-cult style, with no understanding of the reasoning behind either. Hum loops are a direct result of the lowest-impedance path to ground not being the shortest path. There is no "noise being transferred" by a power cable that can be fixed by doubling its effective ground path length!

In theory, a cable could be made to have higher resistance after a set point (skin effect).

The skin effect is one of those bits of jargon that audio-scammers throw around to mystify and confuse. It has no relevance to audio applications because it happens at microwave frequencies.

No, skin effect comes into play well below microwave frequencies, even being present at medium frequencies, but is effectively non-existant in the audio region!

Would be nice if someone with access to a 20Hz to 20kHz LCR meter got his hands on one of these cables, just to see what the numbers say.

Do "20Hz to 20kHz LCR meters" exist? A few minutes with the LC equations will show you that the size of components resonating at those frequencies are quite rare and unusual... Of course it's not the case if you add R. LCR meters generally measure at line frequency (50/60 Hz), twice line (100/120 Hz), 1kHz and maybe 10kHz. If you want to measure impedance through the audio band you need to use a bridge with external input from a signal generator.

He compared cables and was apparently able to hear a difference in "where instruments were located", how "woolly" the bass sounded. He was also able to determine that some of the cables had more "presence" and could determine the "leading edge of the notes" better on some cables. I could go on. Apparently interconnect cables play the role of "filters" in an audio system.

Those are all differences that exist in sound reproduction, but not from cables. I guess it's comforting to believe that you can fix these problems by buying a cable, rather than doing something real like treating the room with acoustic material (which would ruin his perfect Edwardian decor).

Based on the size of the speakers their frequency response should start at about 35 Hz.

The sad thing about "debunking audiophools" is how much ignorance is on display by the debunkers. Acoustic suspension speakers do not need to be large.

[YetAnotherTechie]

Secondly, surprise surprise, the most expensive cable (which he apparently paid £800 for) scored the highest in his tests and the cheapest performed "worst", but he claims that "he couldn't care less if the cheaper cables sound better"

He's the real deal! didn't you notice that he didn't let the lack of gold plating, and the home-made look of heat shrink on the most expensive cable cloud his perception of its noticeably better quality? 

[coppice]

In theory, a cable could be made to have higher resistance after a set point (skin effect).

Would be nice if someone with access to a 20Hz to 20kHz LCR meter got his hands on one of these cables, just to see what the numbers say.

When you do get real performance loss with an audio cable its usually a relatively high impedance output feeding a high capacitance cable, forming a low pass filter, and the treble rolls off heavily. Instrument cables, like electric guitar cables, are notorious for this, as you need a pretty long cable on most stages. Mic outputs are usually a much lower impedance, and long cables usually work well.

[MazeFrame]

In theory, a cable could be made to have higher resistance after a set point (skin effect).

The skin effect is one of those bits of jargon that audio-scammers throw around to mystify and confuse. It has no relevance to audio applications because it happens at microwave frequencies.

AFAIK, Skin Effect starts as soon as there is any frequency.
For power transmission, it is definitely a consideration. Hence the construction of those cables (steel core for structure, aluminium conductors on the outside). Since those operate in one could call "bass"-range, there may be something worth experimenting on a Saturday afternoon here.

Would be nice if someone with access to a 20Hz to 20kHz LCR meter got his hands on one of these cables, just to see what the numbers say.

Do "20Hz to 20kHz LCR meters" exist? A few minutes with the LC equations will show you that the size of components resonating at those frequencies are quite rare and unusual... Of course it's not the case if you add R. LCR meters generally measure at line frequency (50/60 Hz), twice line (100/120 Hz), 1kHz and maybe 10kHz. If you want to measure impedance through the audio band you need to use a bridge with external input from a signal generator.

Yes. Most of the bench top ones can do DC to kHz/MHz. GWInstek LCR-8210 for example (DC, 10Hz - 10MHz).
And since planes have 400Hz board systems, it is quite an important consideration to keep losses down.

Low frequency oscillators can be accidentally achieved by putting a capacitor in the wrong spot on an Op-Amp's feedback line, don't ask me how I know.

[CJay]

You can fuck that up easily by replying to his positive comments. That wrecks the entire thread

True, but I bet the replies would be deleted rapidly.

[AVGresponding]

You do NOT use SY cable in a BS1363 plug-top, because there is neither space nor provision for safely connecting the braid to earth, which effectively leaves it as a floating conductor, which is a big no-no.

Remember this is audiofoolary so the screen is only connected at one end to stop noise being transferred,the connection from braid to earth will be made on the other end of the cable

An unused conductor should only be ever terminated at one end, otherwise it becomes a functional conductor. The termination should be at the supply end, not the load end.

[themadhippy]

The termination should be at the supply end, not the load end.

yea we know that but these are audiofools,who  make up their own were rules  ,like advising reversing the polarity of the supply to improve the sound,but ignoring the regulations  about single pole switching and protective devices,or claiming to have measured directionality in cables,strange how kimber never did reply to my request for further details.

[bd139]

Surprised my comment hasn't been deleted yet 

[wraper]

Surprised my comment hasn't been deleted yet 

You might be the only one who sees it. Check from incognito mode or logout from your account.

[mansaxel]

I had to add my point to the thread as well. 

Studios don't use RCA cables. I should know. I design cable and signal transmission systems for contemporary TV studios. We use XLR cables, Belden, Mogami, Klotz, Sommer, Canford, whatever we can find in the box, (but always Neutrik connectors, because they don't break).  Then we run it to the stage box, where it's A/D converted, and run as multicast IP traffic over the cheapest available unshielded CAT6 into a wall box where there's a £3 RJ45 IDC jack, and then 70 metres of CAT6, another IDC jack, and then into an Ethernet switch. The switch of course costs £5000, because it's a PTP boundary switch.

The cable wankery is just that, wankery. It does not matter a bleeping worm turd what you use, as long as it is balanced, reasonable impedance and rugged.

If you could be arsed to do a proper double blind test, you would be very hard pressed to find any differences, and if you do, it's usually because the audiophile gear tends to be built using unstable unfiltered designs that brown out when you load it just a little bit wrongly.  Proper gear, built right to pro transmission standards, is very insensitive to cable loading. 100 meters 120Ω pair cable is inaudible if you do it right.

[bd139]

Spot on.

There's another thread going on actually which is quite funny which I pointed out a similar conclusion on: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/recommend-me-the-thinnest-coaxial-cable-but-i-need-the-thickest-shield/msg3631855/ ... worth a read to look at the solutions

[langwadt]

In theory, a cable could be made to have higher resistance after a set point (skin effect).

Would be nice if someone with access to a 20Hz to 20kHz LCR meter got his hands on one of these cables, just to see what the numbers say.

When you do get real performance loss with an audio cable its usually a relatively high impedance output feeding a high capacitance cable, forming a low pass filter, and the treble rolls off heavily. Instrument cables, like electric guitar cables, are notorious for this, as you need a pretty long cable on most stages. Mic outputs are usually a much lower impedance, and long cables usually work well.

that's why you use instrument cable for guitars and not microphone cable

[langwadt]

In theory, a cable could be made to have higher resistance after a set point (skin effect).

The skin effect is one of those bits of jargon that audio-scammers throw around to mystify and confuse. It has no relevance to audio applications because it happens at microwave frequencies.

AFAIK, Skin Effect starts as soon as there is any frequency.
For power transmission, it is definitely a consideration. Hence the construction of those cables (steel core for structure, aluminium conductors on the outside). Since those operate in one could call "bass"-range, there may be something worth experimenting on a Saturday afternoon here.

what audio signal cares if the resistance of a cable isn't get any less than that of a few mm^2 of copper?

[tszaboo]

OK, so here is some technical details and myth busting.
Speaker cables: A typical speaker is 8 Ohm, complex, slightly inductive load. If you connect it with 5m of 18 AWG  copper wire, that is about 320mOhm extra resistance. Your Amp has some extra output resistance (typically as low as possible). But the ratio of the speaker cable and speaker resistance is called "damping factor", and because you connect a reactive load with a mostly resistive conductor, it does change with frequency. Additionally, passive crossovers make everything more complicated.

RCA / Interconnect cable: Depending on the source, the source impedance can be as high as 10KOhm (record player). If we place a moderate 5uH 100pF( which is not impossible for these cables ) on this output, it filters at the 10kHz already. 10Khz is audible, but (and this might be more important) it could sound different for a dual tone test note.

I personally see the difference between a cheap and a good XLR cable. It provides different noise floor for my microphone, SPL meter in software shows it clearly. I also saw burn in effect in an amp, with my own eyes, because I had a DSO2024 connected to it, after building a circuit and powering it the first time.

This guy is obviously a snake oil salesmen, but there is some non-trivial effects of cables (or coat hangers).

[mansaxel]

In theory, a cable could be made to have higher resistance after a set point (skin effect).

Would be nice if someone with access to a 20Hz to 20kHz LCR meter got his hands on one of these cables, just to see what the numbers say.

When you do get real performance loss with an audio cable its usually a relatively high impedance output feeding a high capacitance cable, forming a low pass filter, and the treble rolls off heavily. Instrument cables, like electric guitar cables, are notorious for this, as you need a pretty long cable on most stages. Mic outputs are usually a much lower impedance, and long cables usually work well.

that's why you use instrument cable for guitars and not microphone cable

Yes, there likely is a bit more capacitance in a twisted pair, but that tends to be offset by the impedances (source and input) in such circuits by convention being much lower and the capacitance required to make a dent in the response being so much higher.

A typical guitar pickup, OTOH, is pretty high output impedance, perhaps 15K, and ideally needs loading with 1MΩ of input impedance to not lose out. A balanced microphone typically is 100-200Ω output impedance, and will perform well into 3KΩ, which is typical microphone input impedance. Rule of thumb for audio is that  Zin/3 > Zout  will mostly do fine, impedance-wise, but more is better.

[langwadt]

OK, so here is some technical details and myth busting.
Speaker cables: A typical speaker is 8 Ohm, complex, slightly inductive load. If you connect it with 5m of 18 AWG  copper wire, that is about 320mOhm extra resistance. Your Amp has some extra output resistance (typically as low as possible). But the ratio of the speaker cable and speaker resistance is called "damping factor", and because you connect a reactive load with a mostly resistive conductor, it does change with frequency. Additionally, passive crossovers make everything more complicated.

and that cable+output resistance is effectively in series with the DC resistance of the voicecoil so..
the skin effect just means that as frequency increase bigger cable doesn't decrease the resistance, does it matter if you 10mm^2 cable only looks like at 1mm² cable at 20kHz ?

RCA / Interconnect cable: Depending on the source, the source impedance can be as high as 10KOhm (record player). If we place a moderate 5uH 100pF( which is not impossible for these cables ) on this output, it filters at the 10kHz already. 10Khz is audible, but (and this might be more important) it could sound different for a dual tone test note.

things that are easily measured

I personally see the difference between a cheap and a good XLR cable. It provides different noise floor for my microphone, SPL meter in software shows it clearly. I also saw burn in effect in an amp, with my own eyes, because I had a DSO2024 connected to it, after building a circuit and powering it the first time.

This guy is obviously a snake oil salesmen, but there is some non-trivial effects of cables (or coat hangers).

the difference between cheap and good xlr cable noise floor is likely how the shielding is constructed

[Haenk]

I wonder why no one ever solders their cables directly to the amp PCB and speaker/player PCBs - those plugs just add contact resistance which even your 100 EUR plug has. Not only is it way cheaper but technically superior (not that anybody would ever notice, but still...)

[MrMobodies]

Surprised my comment hasn't been deleted yet 

You might be the only one who sees it. Check from incognito mode or logout from your account.

I see your comment.

It seems he does reply to pretty much replies to very comment but the subjective ones and he claims to be doing a "subjective listening" test but didn't see any removed yet.

I got one reply that it wasn't about me believing it "not even a little" and another talking about a the "wife test" to my comment about their difficulty selecting the right remote control:

Prairie Dawg 15 hours ago
 @Mr Mobodies  The "Wife test" somehow reminds me of a program I saw about a dog which could do maths, tapping its paw to give the answer to a verbal question.  In short, it could answer whatever the owner could - when she got it wrong the dog did. It was picking up some subtle visual clue when the nth tap matched the answer, when the owner was shielded from sight the dog's answers pretty random. So - TL;DR wife picking up some (maybe subcounscious) cogniive bias

So according to that the wife maybe picking up what he expects her to do.

I like how he says his wife couldn't find the correct remote control without his help and she sits down for an hour and a half to listen to the same track:

08:16 i was able to get my wife to sit down for about an hour and a half. I can barely get her to pick up the right remote control for the tv leave alone here to switch cables at the back of my amplifier...  and i played one track repeatedly Flamenco Sketches by Miles Davis

and seems to me to be making out like the cables are beyond science itself:

15:34 these cables do not sound the same and for reasons I can't explain I don't think an adequate explanation exists when it comes to science  I take a slightly philosophical approach our auditory system and the neurology of our brain have developed over eons.

Quite a bit of this don't make much sense to me as I can't see it with my own eyes or feel it:

14:20 You'll be happy with the Megami and the Van Damme the Chord and the Beldum in comparison are a little bit more recessed  it's the Vander Gull
that rolls things off the most there's no point having that high end extension if sibilance isn't well controlled otherwise that's quality can
get quite annoying the most rolled off cables here have less to do so they fare fairly well but the Megami and the van damme do a reasonable
job if tonal accuracy matters to you it certainly matters to me because I listen to a lot of acoustic instruments *vanderholt is the most warm
sounding cable and colors the sound the most on that side of the spectrum that's why it gets a two the beldum's still warm but less so and the Chord
is the most neutral sounding cable and that's why it gets a four the Megami in comparison is distinctly leaner but it's the Van Damme that colors the
sound the most on the other side of the spectrum and that's why that gets a two for those of you who are interested in the results from my subjective
listening tests the Van Damme came in last place in fourth place was the Van Der Hull with 42 points there was joint second place for the mogami and
the beldum even though they have very different sound characteristics and the chord signature came out on top with 50 points I didn't know what to
expect but there's some interesting results here

...

15:44 I take a slightly philosophical approach our auditory system and the neurology of our brain have developed over eons.

...

15:48 There might be all kinds of subtle windows and doors to our perception that we haven't uncovered yet that seems quite likely we know a lot about our
auditory system there's an awful lot that we don't know as well and i'm not alone industry insiders designers will regularly tell you they switch out
components and they measure the same but sound different there either is a massive conspiracy going on or they're all incompetent and then there's the
electron itself the fundamental particle that's responsible for all of this we think of it as a tiny subatomic particle with a negative charge because
that's how it's generally observed apart from when it isn't when you get into the realm of quantum mechanics it's described as a wave because it exhibits
the behavior of a wave something called wave particle duality which sits at the heart of quantum mechanics and if you think that's science voodoo well
that's the reason why you're sitting here being able to observe me now a lot of our technology is based on our understanding of quantum mechanics so if
we don't know the actual nature of electron itself I think it's a **little bit arrogant to assume that we've got everything figured out my advice for those
of you getting start in this hobby remains the same.

Buzzwords: Tonal accuracy, subjective listening tests?, siblance, warm, rich, sound colour, philosophical, brain waves, ions, neurology, quantum mechanics, wave particle duality, fundamental particle, subatomic partical, negative charge, science voodoo ... over an audio cable.

* Is he saying that the colour of the cable is going to have an effect on how it sounds or is he visualizing colours from the sound he perceiving from the said cable?

** I don't see any demonstration other than him talking.

[xrunner]

Buzzwords: Tonal accuracy, subjective listening tests?, siblance, warm, rich, sound colour, philosophical, brain waves, ions, neurology, quantum mechanics, wave particle duality, fundamental particle, subatomic partical, negative charge, science voodoo ... over an audio cable.

* Is he saying that the colour of the cable is going to have an effect on how it sounds or is he visualizing colours from the sound he perceiving from the said cable?

** I don't see any demonstration other than him talking.

I want to ask him, well if all these things are true about cables, what do they do in mission critical uses such as space communications, military, or aircraft? All that is vastly more critical than a person sitting on their ass listening to a vinyl record. Does NASA hire audiophiles to check out their headsets and cables?

 

[bd139]

So basically he's bonkers and talking rubbish?

[borjam]

I had to add my point to the thread as well. 

Then we run it to the stage box, where it's A/D converted, and run as multicast IP traffic over the cheapest available unshielded CAT6 into a wall box where there's a £3 RJ45 IDC jack, and then 70 metres of CAT6, another IDC jack, and then into an Ethernet switch. The switch of course costs £5000, because it's a PTP boundary switch

Tsk tsk!!!!!

You are hurting unsuspecting musicians beyond belief! You should use this.

https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-diamond-rj-e-ethernet-cable

And by the way this store is so awesome. They even offer a 96 hour burnin service, no less! Of course they warn you that audio cables are directional which is entirely logical, or would you live happily upside down, sucker?

The comments section is awesome. And this particular cable seems to be especially hard to tame.

[MrMobodies]

https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-diamond-rj-e-ethernet-cable

And by the way this store is so awesome. They even offer a 96 hour burnin service, no less! Of course they warn you that audio cables are directional which is entirely logical, or would you live happily upside down, sucker?

It seems that adjusting the burn in time doesn't affect the cost.

Solid 100% Perfect-Surface Silver Conductors (PSS)
    Solid High-Density Polyethylene Insulation
    Dielectric-Bias System (DBS, US Pat #s 7,126,055 & 7,872,195 B1)
    Silver-Plated Terminations
    High-Speed Data Capacity
    Directionality
Specification :

    Metal: Solid 100% PSS Silver
    Dielectric: Solid High-Density Polyethylene
    Termination: Precision-made low-mass ultra-wide bandwidth connectors with 100% shield coverage and strain relief
    Jacket Colour: Black/Silver Braid

Solid 100% Perfect-Surface Silver Conductors (PSS):

Perfect-Surface Technology applied to extreme-purity silver provides unprecedented clarity and dynamic contrast. Solid conductors prevent strand interaction, a major source of cable distortion. Extremely high-purity Perfect-Surface Silver minimizes distortion caused by the grain boundaries which exist within any metal conductor, nearly eliminating harshness and greatly increasing clarity compared to OFHC, OCC, 8N and other coppers.

Buzzword bullshit: Extreme-purity, unprecedented clarity, dynamic contrast, strand interaction, cable distortion, high-purity, Perfect-Surface, grain boundaries, harshness, increasing clarity, directionality.

Does that mean that the conductor is silver plated or pure silver?

[cdev]

Now that so many people have VNAs its possible to test audiophoolery cables much better.

Why not?

[borjam]

Now that so many people have VNAs its possible to test audiophoolery cables much better.

Why not?

VNAs are useless for that. You need MNAs instead, but they haven't been invented yet.