"A British Audiophile" compares audio interconnects

[Sighound36]

I would suggest near 42Hz in real terms no withstanding having a fireplace between them 

[Sighound36]

"Now that so many people have VNAs its possible to test audiophoolery cables much better Why not?"

Something mention every time I hear this crap 

[madires]

I would suggest near 42Hz in real terms no withstanding having a fireplace between them 

From the viewing angle It's hard to guess the speaker's depth. If the depth is less than the width it could be 42 Hz. When it's a few cm more than the width then 38 Hz are possible. Quite disappointing for an audiophile setup.

[Sighound36]

I would suggest near 42Hz in real terms no withstanding having a fireplace between them 

From the viewing angle It's hard to guess the speaker's depth. If the depth is less than the width it could be 42 Hz. When it's a few cm more than the width then 38 Hz are possible. Quite disappointing for an audiophile setup.

Absolutely, although I was thinking about the claimed freqency response as 'opposed' to the REAL in room response 

[MrMobodies]

Just noticed this review:
https://www.futureshop.co.uk/audioquest-diamond-rj-e-ethernet-cable

Needs very long burn-in before sounding good
27 JAN 2021 martin carter Verified Purchaser

I ended-up liking this cable. But, the most helpful thing I could say about it is this: It needs an inordinately long burn-in period. In fact when first connected I was shocked by the terrible sound quality - way over bright and harsh, just horrible. You need the patience of a saint with this one. In desperation, I ended up leaving it playing internet radio 24/7 - while not listening I must add!!! I was within a gnats whisker of sending it back under the 60 day trail period.

Future Shop recommends 100 hours burn-in. In my experience, that’s optimistic. * It was a couple of months at least before it had settled down. After that it does start to sound good, very good in fact. But I do think AQ should be up-front with customers and explain the long burn-in requirement.

*That he settled down or got use to it.

If he was using that as a network cable that sounds to me beyond stupid and Dave Jones did video on something similar about the product not being setup designed right if it is being influenced like that but I doubt it in this case.

EEVblog #719 - Sony Low Noise Audiophile SDXC Memory Card
youtube.com/watch?v=AO-vbzLPwSc
Yoiutube transcript:

03:45 the hell has I got to do with anything when you've got a complete digital
system ones and zeros between your memory card and your DAC. If your product
is going to be influenced by a slightly less EMC somehow radiated by your memory
card then you haven't designed up your product correctly. It's just complete and
utter bullshit but they need some sort of crap in here to convince the audio
fools that it's going to sound better.

[mansaxel]

If he was using that as a network cable that sounds to me beyond stupid .

It is. People who believe in this have not understood data transmission. They might claim to understand, but they're so busy wanting to believe that their new expensive toy is good that they can't distinguish between fantasy and reality.



Just to reiterate;

• All streaming in a consumer playback environment is via TCP/IP
• The IP traffic is, today, exclusively TCP, more specifically HTTP. Because nothing else will function given the proliferation of middle boxes, NAT gateways, and other packet-destroying paraphernalia that make up the end-user "internet" today.
• Sometimes it might be SMB. Still TCP.
• In both cases, it is essentially a checksummed (multiple layers) file transfer. It is not a bitstream as would be found via AES3 or S/P DIF. (those both actually transfer samples, in AES3 32-bit ones, that are alternatingly left or right, and have extra data in the top 8 bits, given a 24-bit audio level value.)
• It being a file, it is always transfered with liberal buffering, implying that there is ample time for getting the samples out of the file and into the playback application.
• (How can we be certain there's buffering? Because doing it without buffers is impossible, and small buffers are much harder. I know, because in my application you can't buffer much at all when it's really live, and people who made the signal will hear it (stage monitors) after it's been shipped over your network! We even have to use RTP over UDP, and we do a bunch of magic with clocking things, using PTP et al.)
• In the case of ID3 tags, they are at the end of the file which means that if your player can show the title it has the entire file or can do random reads.
• So, the player, before playing, gets most of the file, in chunks (HLS) or disk blocks (SMB) or as a more traditional FTP-style transfer.
• The file has a header, in which there's a sample rate indicated.
• The local oscillator governing the D/A converter is responsible for putting samples out in the right rate, as read from the header. Not the network, not the NAS, not the web server handing the HLS stream out. They're just shipping bits, with buffering.

That's all there is to it. The network is not responsible for the clocking of the playout, and any player who is influenced by network cables in any way is probably illegal to sell, because it does not meet EMI/RFI immunity standards.

Edit: The above assumes flat uncompressed WAV or AIFF. If you have compression (MP3 / FLAC / OGG or Tidal (*barf*)) , you have a lot of maths being done in non-realtime priority in the player computer before there are samples that can be output paced via the local clock. More abstraction, more buffering, less chance of interference by the network.

[bd139]

Oh yes. My first encounter of this was 26 years ago. I spent a good chunk of 1995 trying to persuade a law student that his £70 SPDIF cable wasn't going to make his MD recorder any better than the £2 one. There are a whole bunch of things he just didn't know or understand including ATRAC . We got there in the end.

He was an Amiga user as well 

[MazeFrame]

Just to reiterate;

• All streaming in a consumer playback environment is via TCP/IP
• The IP traffic is, today, exclusively TCP, more specifically HTTP. Because nothing else will function given the proliferation of middle boxes, NAT gateways, and other packet-destroying paraphernalia that make up the end-user "internet" today.
• Sometimes it might be SMB. Still TCP.
• In both cases, it is essentially a checksummed (multiple layers) file transfer. It is not a bitstream as would be found via AES3 or S/P DIF. (those both actually transfer samples, in AES3 32-bit ones, that are alternatingly left or right, and have extra data in the top 8 bits, given a 24-bit audio level value.)
• It being a file, it is always transfered with liberal buffering, implying that there is ample time for getting the samples out of the file and into the playback application.
• (How can we be certain there's buffering? Because doing it without buffers is impossible, and small buffers are much harder. I know, because in my application you can't buffer much at all when it's really live, and people who made the signal will hear it (stage monitors) after it's been shipped over your network! We even have to use RTP over UDP, and we do a bunch of magic with clocking things, using PTP et al.)
• In the case of ID3 tags, they are at the end of the file which means that if your player can show the title it has the entire file or can do random reads.
• So, the player, before playing, gets most of the file, in chunks (HLS) or disk blocks (SMB) or as a more traditional FTP-style transfer.
• The file has a header, in which there's a sample rate indicated.
• The local oscillator governing the D/A converter is responsible for putting samples out in the right rate, as read from the header. Not the network, not the NAS, not the web server handing the HLS stream out. They're just shipping bits, with buffering.

UDP and TCP are the common transport protocols (when going by OSI)
TCP is used where time is kind off irrelevant but integrity is important (File transfers, etc.)
UDP is used when time is more important than integrity (Streaming, online games, etc.)

HTTP (and SMB or FTP, or any protocol aware of the concept of "file") is Application layer. Way different beast and has nothing to do with shuffling 1's and 0's about.

All the compensation for jumbled packets happens in the displaying software on the receiving end, NOT in the transport! Else you would have to update your router (not modem, not switch) for every new file format.
SPDIF (no matter if home or pro format) is VERY time sensitive. As such, minimal (if any) buffering. A "broken" packet or a flipped bit does not matter much (even if every 10th packet goes missing completely), after the DAC and its output filter are done with the bit-stream, it will be difficult to measure and impossible to hear.
Additionally, even when the receiver had time to detect an error, there is no way to tell the sender to re-transmit.

There is also never a full file transfer (there is not even the concept of file). Just some info, left/right select and then the actual audio payload. Else you would have to wait considerable time each time you change the song (say 8MB mp3 @ 15Mbit/s ~ 4 Seconds).

[Sighound36]

Very sorry gents, I must aplogise in advance he is loosely British 

[bd139]

He should buy some carpet. That is more likely to improve the sound 

[xrunner]

I was waiting on him to say the best listening is done with only socks on which improves the sub-phonic ergonomic sound scenario and boomy brilliance.

 

[tszaboo]

OK, so here is some technical details and myth busting.
Speaker cables: A typical speaker is 8 Ohm, complex, slightly inductive load. If you connect it with 5m of 18 AWG  copper wire, that is about 320mOhm extra resistance. Your Amp has some extra output resistance (typically as low as possible). But the ratio of the speaker cable and speaker resistance is called "damping factor", and because you connect a reactive load with a mostly resistive conductor, it does change with frequency. Additionally, passive crossovers make everything more complicated.

and that cable+output resistance is effectively in series with the DC resistance of the voicecoil so..
the skin effect just means that as frequency increase bigger cable doesn't decrease the resistance, does it matter if you 10mm^2 cable only looks like at 1mm² cable at 20kHz ?

RCA / Interconnect cable: Depending on the source, the source impedance can be as high as 10KOhm (record player). If we place a moderate 5uH 100pF( which is not impossible for these cables ) on this output, it filters at the 10kHz already. 10Khz is audible, but (and this might be more important) it could sound different for a dual tone test note.

things that are easily measured

I personally see the difference between a cheap and a good XLR cable. It provides different noise floor for my microphone, SPL meter in software shows it clearly. I also saw burn in effect in an amp, with my own eyes, because I had a DSO2024 connected to it, after building a circuit and powering it the first time.

This guy is obviously a snake oil salesmen, but there is some non-trivial effects of cables (or coat hangers).

the difference between cheap and good xlr cable noise floor is likely how the shielding is constructed

The speaker cable is in series with the inductane as well. And 20Khz skin effect is negligible, since you have multiple conductors in a cable, called stranded cable.

Differences can be measured, never claimed otherwise. But you might be surprised, because human hearing has extremely large dynamic range. That's why ie. an oscilloscope is often a bad choice to measure audio circuits, not enough bits. A lot of other general purpose engineering tools are just not suited for it. A DSA would be good for it for example, or a Keithley 2015.

[langwadt]

OK, so here is some technical details and myth busting.
Speaker cables: A typical speaker is 8 Ohm, complex, slightly inductive load. If you connect it with 5m of 18 AWG  copper wire, that is about 320mOhm extra resistance. Your Amp has some extra output resistance (typically as low as possible). But the ratio of the speaker cable and speaker resistance is called "damping factor", and because you connect a reactive load with a mostly resistive conductor, it does change with frequency. Additionally, passive crossovers make everything more complicated.

and that cable+output resistance is effectively in series with the DC resistance of the voicecoil so..
the skin effect just means that as frequency increase bigger cable doesn't decrease the resistance, does it matter if you 10mm^2 cable only looks like at 1mm² cable at 20kHz ?

RCA / Interconnect cable: Depending on the source, the source impedance can be as high as 10KOhm (record player). If we place a moderate 5uH 100pF( which is not impossible for these cables ) on this output, it filters at the 10kHz already. 10Khz is audible, but (and this might be more important) it could sound different for a dual tone test note.

things that are easily measured

I personally see the difference between a cheap and a good XLR cable. It provides different noise floor for my microphone, SPL meter in software shows it clearly. I also saw burn in effect in an amp, with my own eyes, because I had a DSO2024 connected to it, after building a circuit and powering it the first time.

This guy is obviously a snake oil salesmen, but there is some non-trivial effects of cables (or coat hangers).

the difference between cheap and good xlr cable noise floor is likely how the shielding is constructed

The speaker cable is in series with the inductane as well. And 20Khz skin effect is negligible, since you have multiple conductors in a cable, called stranded cable.

stranded wire doesn't help with skin effect because all the strands are shorted together. In litz wire each strand is individually isolated and carefully arranged

[tszaboo]

stranded wire doesn't help with skin effect because all the strands are shorted together. In litz wire each strand is individually isolated and carefully arranged

Oh really? You seem book smarts, but I'm just going to leave this here, maybe you learn something:
https://www.belden.com/blogs/broadcast/understanding-skin-effect-and-frequency/
I let you guess, if an 18 AWG wire uses 95% or 90% or 85% of it's cross section.
Or this entire discussion matters for the point I was making.
*It doesn't, you are just heckling.

[PlainName]

All streaming in a consumer playback environment is via TCP/IP

I think streaming from a HDHomerun is UDP/IP. I had a periodic corruption problem with my MythTV system which I assumed was the antenna because it's a pretty dodgy area for TV around here (the symptom is the picture breaking up a bit briefly). Evenutally I figured it had to be the HDHomerun so got a new one, and blow me if that didn't do exactly the same. What else could it be? There's only 1m of UTP to a gigabit switch then 1m of UTP to the DVR, and viewing pre-recorded video over that same link was fine. Changed the cables anyway, just to be sure, but still no fix.

Turned out that the switch was suffering capacitor swelling, which caused the occasional packet to be corrupted. Normal video (for viewing) was unaffected since the packet would just get resent, but the HDHomerun uses UDP and doesn't have a resend ability, so the stream didn't get corrected.

OK, not audio and a surprise to me, but it happens

[PlainName]

Very sorry gents, I must aplogise in advance he is loosely British

I thought I was prepared for the bullshit he was no doubt going to spout, but I actually found I couldn't watch much of that at all - it was so bad! However, I did watch enough to find out why cable risers are used, something that hadn't been explained before (to me - obviously any audiophile will know the words if not the meaning). So I learned something, even if it was bollox

[langwadt]

stranded wire doesn't help with skin effect because all the strands are shorted together. In litz wire each strand is individually isolated and carefully arranged

Oh really? You seem book smarts, but I'm just going to leave this here, maybe you learn something:
https://www.belden.com/blogs/broadcast/understanding-skin-effect-and-frequency/
I let you guess, if an 18 AWG wire uses 95% or 90% or 85% of it's cross section.
Or this entire discussion matters for the point I was making.
*It doesn't, you are just heckling.

where does that link say anything about stranded wire?  as far as skin effect is concerned stranded and solid wire is the same

[mansaxel]

All streaming in a consumer playback environment is via TCP/IP

I think streaming from a HDHomerun is UDP/IP. I had a periodic corruption problem with my MythTV system which I assumed was the antenna because it's a pretty dodgy area for TV around here (the symptom is the picture breaking up a bit briefly). Evenutally I figured it had to be the HDHomerun so got a new one, and blow me if that didn't do exactly the same. What else could it be? There's only 1m of UTP to a gigabit switch then 1m of UTP to the DVR, and viewing pre-recorded video over that same link was fine. Changed the cables anyway, just to be sure, but still no fix.

Turned out that the switch was suffering capacitor swelling, which caused the occasional packet to be corrupted. Normal video (for viewing) was unaffected since the packet would just get resent, but the HDHomerun uses UDP and doesn't have a resend ability, so the stream didn't get corrected.

OK, not audio and a surprise to me, but it happens

Once you go to uni- or multicast video via RTP/UDP, all bets are off. TBH, that was not the set of assumptions we started out with ;-)

What one needs to do, in that case, is to establish what kinds of traffic are present, and if they are in conflict with each other to a level that will impair performance. Then, one needs to determine what tools are available, and likely put a lot of money into an Ethernet switch (assuming this is on the LAN at home or so) that will allow some traffic management.

Having a working PSU not subject to TEA Rule 9 is a good start, but you very soon run into things like classifying access lists, DSCP trust, queue depth and allocation on departing interfaces, CoS mapping, et c.

Nice rabbit hole, that.

Also, the single most damning thing that will bite you in traffic management is flows that originate in a high-bandwidth device and are supposed to go out towards a lower bandwidth link. Say you have the HDhomerun on Gig, and there's a receiver on the other end of a 100Mbit Ethernet line in the upstairs bedroom. Where the speed change when the line rate is $1/10$ will have an enormous impact. If there is not buffer space enough to convert bursts of 1000Mbit to a stream of 100Mbit, there's going to be drops, and that even if you're not using more than perhaps 20% of the rated bandwidth.

[tszaboo]

stranded wire doesn't help with skin effect because all the strands are shorted together. In litz wire each strand is individually isolated and carefully arranged

Oh really? You seem book smarts, but I'm just going to leave this here, maybe you learn something:
https://www.belden.com/blogs/broadcast/understanding-skin-effect-and-frequency/
I let you guess, if an 18 AWG wire uses 95% or 90% or 85% of it's cross section.
Or this entire discussion matters for the point I was making.
*It doesn't, you are just heckling.

where does that link say anything about stranded wire?  as far as skin effect is concerned stranded and solid wire is the same

[MazeFrame]

What one needs to do, in that case, is to establish what kinds of traffic are present, and if they are in conflict with each other to a level that will impair performance. Then, one needs to determine what tools are available, and likely put a lot of money into an Ethernet switch (assuming this is on the LAN at home or so) that will allow some traffic management.

What? Not everyone is running a 40Gig network at home? 

[Haenk]

Very sorry gents, I must aplogise in advance he is loosely British 

I just want to quote him:

"These tips will make your system sound twice as good."

Is that extravagant British understatement? I mean, why not three times as good?

[MrMobodies]

Apparenty one Youtuber that responded to me, I think it was the first one saying that it is not what it was about:

entity279 3 days ago
It's really not about you believing or not. Not even a little bit

There's really so few cable comparisons around so obviously they can't please everyone.

entity279 36 minutes ago
@Mr Mobodies  It's about the reviewer describing his comparative experience with these products. Experience just simply can't be wrong (or right).

Comparison could for sure (always ) be improved. But there are  probably 1 or 2 other cable comparisons this year on yt. It takes courage to put such content out, while so many avoid it.

It is about Tarun Sharma's "The British Audiophile" experiences of testing a bit like a story.

Only some cables, some datasheets and opinionated testing.

If I knew on that basis I wouldn't have watched it and bring up the opinions in question from when I thought from the title "Audiophile Vs Pro cables evaluated - Surprising results!" to assume to mean and expect cable tear downs and physical testing to show the differences.

I would be annoyed though if I clicked on a title like that which I often do to find it being opinionated.

[mansaxel]

What one needs to do, in that case, is to establish what kinds of traffic are present, and if they are in conflict with each other to a level that will impair performance. Then, one needs to determine what tools are available, and likely put a lot of money into an Ethernet switch (assuming this is on the LAN at home or so) that will allow some traffic management.

What? Not everyone is running a 40Gig network at home? 

I limit myself to 10G. But my vmware host has 2 of them.

[mansaxel]

He should buy some carpet. That is more likely to improve the sound 

I suggested that and got a sensible response. Am impressed.

[MrMobodies]

He should buy some carpet. That is more likely to improve the sound 

I suggested that and got a sensible response. Am impressed.

I just looked and couldn't see that, is it still there?

I thought what I said was sensible about measuring the differences and/or show us a hearing test but according to some of the commenters none of these things seem to matter to them for story tellers talking about their experiences. With a title like that I'd generally get annoyed and think click bait when I don't find what I 'd expect.