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Products => Dodgy Technology => Topic started by: windsmurf on July 01, 2019, 08:57:20 pm

Title: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: windsmurf on July 01, 2019, 08:57:20 pm
https://features.propublica.org/aggression-detector/the-unproven-invasive-surveillance-technology-schools-are-using-to-monitor-students/ 
 :o:  :scared:

https://projects.propublica.org/graphics/aggression-detector-data-analysis
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: MrMobodies on July 01, 2019, 11:30:30 pm
They should try that on quiet students who barely talk or say anything.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Psi on July 01, 2019, 11:44:13 pm
Jaw drop.
That is the most stupid thing i've seen in a while.
What a waste of money.


Reducing mass shootings would be much better achieved by getting all the students/teachers to fill out an anonymous survey to identify all the bullies at each school.
Then permanently isolate the top 5%. So they can't do any more physical/emotional damage to others.
A large number of mass shootings are just people who are fed up with being harassed or made fun of for years

The main issue that needs to be solved is that...
If someone is being bullied and they complain about it often nothing is done other than a word to the bully to 'stop it or else'.
It invariably just makes the bully more angry and makes the problem worse, which is why people don't report it.

If you're being bullied get a small spy camera on you somehow and catch him/her/them doing it, get a nice collection of say 20 videos and once you have that go see the principal with your evidence.
There's nothing like solid proof of repeated bulling, it will get them expelled instantly.
Don't surrender all the footage to the school, keep a copy, say you will take the videos to the media if he doesn't fix this permanently.
School reputation is important to the principal.


Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Johnny10 on July 01, 2019, 11:46:06 pm
Teachers and administrators should pull their ass out of their smartphones and get to know the students! WTF

Wake up people! Be aware of the living breathing humans in your surroundings.

F___ the AI ideas.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ptricks on July 02, 2019, 12:02:59 am
I'm betting the companies sales agreement also has a 'if we fail to detect aggression, oops sorry, and isn't something better than nothing "  line in it somewhere.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: GregDunn on July 02, 2019, 01:00:04 am
Teachers and administrators should pull their ass out of their smartphones and get to know the students! WTF

Wake up people! Be aware of the living breathing humans in your surroundings.

F___ the AI ideas.

US teachers are barely paid enough to care, let alone to do all the extra work that's required of them which doesn't have anything to do with the students.  It's a miracle anything gets done in schools at all - it's down to the ones who go above and beyond despite the active interference of the school admins and boards.

If you want a solution, start paying the teachers commensurate with their responsibility and let them do their jobs.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Whales on July 02, 2019, 04:01:50 am
Fundamentally this is a reactionary measure.  Prevention is much better than reaction.

Seeing any such product installed is a red flag.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: EEVblog on July 02, 2019, 05:56:59 am
Jaw drop.
That is the most stupid thing i've seen in a while.
What a waste of money.

If you make the money available, they will come.
Milk that security cash cow!
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: EEVblog on July 02, 2019, 06:10:06 am
They should try that on quiet students who barely talk or say anything.

You mean the "I'm shocked it was him, he was always so quiet" types   :palm:
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: SparkyFX on July 02, 2019, 06:33:59 am
There's nothing like solid proof of repeated bulling, it will get them expelled instantly.
There have even been cases in which the bullies themselves filmed what they were doing (outright violence) and circulated this on social media.

The thing against filming is that out of context recordings become questionable evidence, because that implies some premeditation on side of the recording person. I won´t argue about the probabilities and that with some people offenses are just a question of time. OTOH you don´t need outright violence or yelling, when actually years of constant threatening, faking threats and fear is the norm. These don´t leave bruises or evidence, which probably makes people snap over time and actually backfire when they are unable to cope with it.

And that´s kind of the same problem with these detectors... they tell you where it is loud - which in a school does not really tell you much.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: magic on July 02, 2019, 07:47:32 am
They should try that on quiet students who barely talk or say anything.
You mean the "I'm shocked it was him, he was always so quiet" types   :palm:
This exactly. You better ask not for bullies but for nerds who don't talk to anyone and then flip a coin to guess if they are the kind that build bombs or collect vintages scopes in their basement ;)
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ebastler on July 02, 2019, 09:29:12 am
Fundamentally this is a reactionary measure.  Prevention is much better than reaction.

I believe you mean a "reactive" measure?
I don't think it qualifies as "reactionary".
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: EEVblog on July 02, 2019, 11:19:49 am
They should try that on quiet students who barely talk or say anything.
You mean the "I'm shocked it was him, he was always so quiet" types   :palm:
This exactly. You better ask not for bullies but for nerds who don't talk to anyone and then flip a coin to guess if they are the kind that build bombs or collect vintages scopes in their basement ;)

Put them all on a watch list and monitor their interwebs to see if they watch the EEVblog or FPSRussia.
Heck, tie it into the goolag/facebook engine and they'll already have that data at their fingertips.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: helius on July 02, 2019, 11:35:37 am
Is this the same type of "aggression detector" that was developed by the Wikimedia Foundation?
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: MrMobodies on July 02, 2019, 06:03:45 pm
Think of how they can interpret the captured recordings and how they'd act or overreact like what happened when they had a 14 year old arrested for bringing in a home made clock.

It reminds a bit of this video eevBLAB #14 - 14yo Hobbyist Arrested For Bringing DIY Clock To School.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Cyberdragon on July 02, 2019, 07:30:35 pm
Is this the same type of "aggression detector" that was developed by the Wikimedia Foundation?

More like defeloped by highschoolers as a science fair  project, till some nutters in suits came in and offered a hansom amount. ;D ::)

Think of how they can interpret the captured recordings and how they'd act or overreact like what happened when they had a 14 year old arrested for bringing in a home made clock.

It reminds a bit of this video eevBLAB #14 - 14yo Hobbyist Arrested For Bringing DIY Clock To School.

Imagine this shit in a mental hospital.

"We got an alert, we're gonna have to lock you up."
"No! I swear I wasn't screaming at nothing, I just sneezed!"
"The machine said you were, and machines can't lie."
"No...NO...NNNOOOOOO!"
 ::)
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 02, 2019, 08:10:51 pm
That is the most stupid thing i've seen in a while.
What a waste of money.

It is stupid to think that way. Those audio security products are designed to *complement* video surveillance systems. Security guard can monitor 9 or more video feeds, yet he can listen only to single audio source. This is just better & smarter "glass break detector" which brings attention of the guard to one particular video feed.

Fact that schools are looking after kids using CCTV systems instead of teachers is completely another story. It does not make AI-enabled audio detectors stupid.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Nominal Animal on July 02, 2019, 08:37:14 pm
There is exactly one way to tell the ones at risk from the harmless ones, and that is to talk to them and get to know them.  Everything else will fail, due to the complexity of human-human interaction.

If you disagree, consider Israeli airports: their approach to security, and their track record.  Beats the most high-tech airports anywhere else in the world, and they rely more on humans than technology.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 02, 2019, 08:42:23 pm
If you disagree, consider Israeli airports: their approach to security, and their track record.  Beats the most high-tech airports anywhere else in the world, and they rely more on humans than technology.

Right.  :-DD

Quote
Israel’s Ben-Gurion Int. Airport in Tel Aviv is the first in the world to begin using a new system that allows passengers to perform security checks by themselves. When passengers register they’re given a smart card with all their security information encrypted. The system is meant to decrease the amount of time passengers spend in security lines. The pilot program is being tested on El Al frequent flier members who sign-up in advance. Kiosks with Face (Cognitec) and Fingerprint (Innovatrics) recognition systems.

https://www.innovatrics.com/references/airport-security-checks-israel/ (https://www.innovatrics.com/references/airport-security-checks-israel/)
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Nominal Animal on July 02, 2019, 09:30:03 pm
 :palm:

They found out there is no reason to spend efforts to identify/authenticate people.  People are happy to do it voluntarily themselves, especially if it saves them time.

That has nothing to do with threat detection.  That is still done by well-trained humans.

Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: MrMobodies on July 02, 2019, 10:06:38 pm
Here's a joke: It'll be interesting to see how they will perform in the military.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Psi on July 03, 2019, 01:38:55 am
That is the most stupid thing i've seen in a while.
What a waste of money.

It is stupid to think that way. Those audio security products are designed to *complement* video surveillance systems. Security guard can monitor 9 or more video feeds, yet he can listen only to single audio source. This is just better & smarter "glass break detector" which brings attention of the guard to one particular video feed.

Except that shootings are almost always done by smarter than typical people, and anyone with half a brain would know not to talking about anything near the system.
And as EEVBlog pointed out, it's often the ones who dont talk much.

I'm not saying this system is 100% pointless, maybe it will get lucky and prevent a shooting which is good.
I just think the money would have a more positive impact if spent elsewhere.

Money is better spent solving the cause of what pushes kids 'over the edge' than it is spent trying to stop them shooting.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: james_s on July 03, 2019, 02:00:13 am
I've been curious as to the reasons why school shootings have become relatively much more common than they used to be. Bullying was certainly present when I was in school, and in the USA at least people had far easier access to guns, I knew lots of kids growing up who had easy access to hunting rifles, shotguns and handguns belonging to their parents, some students were even avid hunters or target marksmen yet I never heard of anyone bringing a gun to school and shooting a bunch of people.

Part of the issue I suspect is the instant fame offered to people who do such acts by the media which tends to glorify it but I don't think that's all of it either. Certainly violent movies and video games were as prevalent then as they are now. I wonder too if it is related to the generation of coddled over-protected kids who have never been allowed to really fail and are thus completely unable to deal with rejection or failure. Maybe there are other aspects as well?

Either way "aggression detectors" strike me as just another reactionary thing that tries to focus on a symptom while ignoring the root cause(s).
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: EEVblog on July 03, 2019, 05:31:08 am
:palm:
They found out there is no reason to spend efforts to identify/authenticate people.  People are happy to do it voluntarily themselves, especially if it saves them time.
That has nothing to do with threat detection.  That is still done by well-trained humans.

It's obvious why this system exists:
a) It's one of those ideas that easily pops out of brainstorming sessions at one of those startup workshops.
b) There is oodles of government school security program money to be had.

Doesn't matter it actually works or not.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 03, 2019, 07:19:38 am
Either way "aggression detectors" strike me as just another reactionary thing that tries to focus on a symptom while ignoring the root cause(s).

What else you can do in the *schools*? Psychologically profile each kid? As EEVblog already mentioned, potential shooter may look quite normal. Unless teachers are highly trained - they may miss one. Obviously cameras do not physically catch thieves as they do not stop shooters, yet I strongly disagree that video surveillance with audio assist in the schools is waste of the money. I wish school where my grand kid will be going to is equipped such way, but it is not. After all bullying and drugs are other problems schools have to worry about.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: EEVblog on July 03, 2019, 08:12:23 am
Either way "aggression detectors" strike me as just another reactionary thing that tries to focus on a symptom while ignoring the root cause(s).
What else you can do in the *schools*? Psychologically profile each kid?

Yep, that's called a teacher.
Sure they aren't physiologists, but they aren't stupid either, and they heave years and decades of dealing with countless kids daily. They are in the best position to notice and track changes in students for a start. They likely know the kids better than their parents do.
How about this novel concept, take that "security" money and train the teachers on a suitable psychology course. Perhaps instigate some sort of system that enables them to easily note or track changes in students perhaps. Maybe then you can get a system that gives a "trigger warning" based on real teacher monitored feedback. There's a Startup opportunity for you, and one that might actually work. Mention blockchain and it's instant grant money.
Novel concept I know to let a teacher know and understand their kids, and give them agency to do things when they suspect something is wrong.

Quote
As EEVblog already mentioned, potential shooter may look quite normal. Unless teachers are highly trained - they may miss one.


Inevitable regardless of what you do in such a society that had an average of one school shooting every 8 days in 2018.
But warning, this thread had better not turn into a gun debate.

Quote
Obviously cameras do not physically catch thieves as they do not stop shooters, yet I strongly disagree that video surveillance with audio assist in the schools is waste of the money. I wish school where my grand kid will be going to is equipped such way, but it is not.

Be careful what you wish for.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: EEVblog on July 03, 2019, 08:16:09 am
Speaking of psychologists in schools, I once ran the numbers on how much money we spent on our embarrassing "chaplain" service in schools, and how many trained psychologists we could hire full time with that money. IIRC it was enough for one full time psychologist for every two schools at least.
Pretty darn good, but instead of that we give the money to a private service that provides religiously motivated untrained "chaplains", what a joke. But at least better than this bogus detector thingo.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: dzseki on July 03, 2019, 08:40:23 am
Teachers and administrators should pull their ass out of their smartphones and get to know the students! WTF

Wake up people! Be aware of the living breathing humans in your surroundings.

F___ the AI ideas.

US teachers are barely paid enough to care, let alone to do all the extra work that's required of them which doesn't have anything to do with the students.  It's a miracle anything gets done in schools at all - it's down to the ones who go above and beyond despite the active interference of the school admins and boards.

If you want a solution, start paying the teachers commensurate with their responsibility and let them do their jobs.

Is there a place where teachers are paid enough?
Interesting that nobody brought up the parent's responsibility in this. IMHO it is a misconception that the school should raise the children, no, it is the parent's main duty, schools are only aiding to that.

AI probably could detect such aggression, but what about preventing it from the core?
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 03, 2019, 09:16:46 am
Yep, that's called a teacher. Sure they aren't physiologists, but they aren't stupid either, and they heave years and decades of dealing with countless kids daily.
They are in the best position to notice and track changes in students for a start. They likely know the kids better than their parents do.

I totally agree with you here. Teachers with at least decade(s) of full time job experience (https://learningenglish.voanews.com/a/study-america-s-teacher-shortage-is-a-bigger-problem-than-thought/4859004.html), highly trained to see early indications of problems, kids are not left alone even during breaks and so on. - Just wishful thinking if we talk about common schools for kids of usual people.

Quote
How about this novel concept, take that "security" money and train the teachers on a suitable psychology course.

Strongly disagree. Both CCTV and training needed. Perhaps one particular school in your mind is fortress with physical security perimeter w/o any chance for anybody to sneak in - that's why you say that implementing video security is waste of the money? Honestly I am puzzled here. How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate.

Quote
Quote
Obviously cameras do not physically catch thieves as they do not stop shooters, yet I strongly disagree that video surveillance with audio assist in the schools is waste of the money. I wish school where my grand kid will be going to is equipped such way, but it is not.

Be careful what you wish for.

 :-// What if there were no CCTV in this kindergarden? https://youtu.be/bqj_xWvPLoI?t=1 (https://youtu.be/bqj_xWvPLoI?t=1)
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: EEVblog on July 03, 2019, 12:54:04 pm
Strongly disagree. Both CCTV and training needed. Perhaps one particular school in your mind is fortress with physical security perimeter w/o any chance for anybody to sneak in - that's why you say that implementing video security is waste of the money? Honestly I am puzzled here. How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate.

Because I live in Australia.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: EEVblog on July 03, 2019, 12:57:04 pm
Interesting that nobody brought up the parent's responsibility in this.

Because that's a much harder problem to do something significant about, some would say impossible.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Ysjoelfir on July 03, 2019, 01:00:05 pm
A problem I see is, that even if there is a problem detected, wether it is detected by some magic sorcery, a "aggression detecting device" or a well trained teacher, it could be quite hard to "get rid" of the problem, at least here in germany where nearly every parent thinks that his child is the best, most beautiful, absolutely stunning child that ever lived, which couldn't do anything wrong in his whole life, so why do you even bother me with this, you dumb, incompetent teacher, and now go on with raising my child. - I guess you know what I mean.


I feel reminded of one particular kid that was in the boyscouts group which I led. It was pretty obvious that he had some issues with aggression, but I had no chance of dismissing him from the journey since his parents already paid for it. Also they were some rich snobs involved in local politics, so you better keep quiet if you want your little scouting thing to keep existing.

However, this kid decided to went on vacation with the scouts. As you might have guessed there are rules, such as "no smoking for children", which should be obvious. Never the less, he smoked. repeatedly, even in presence of the youngest kids we had with us. Taking the cigarets to the leaders tent didn't help, he just took them back as soon as nobody was watching. So I took the cigarets and disposed of them. The next day at the fireplace, said boy had to chop wood. I was working in the firepit as suddenly another one of the leaders shouted at me to duck - which I did, just before the axe that the boy has thrown at me would have hit me in the neck. The wooden shaft still managed to hit my shoulder.
I called the parents, let them pick up the child. A week later I got a letter from the police in which I was accused of stealing the cigarets and the scouts were closed.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: dzseki on July 03, 2019, 01:58:42 pm
A problem I see is, that even if there is a problem detected, wether it is detected by some magic sorcery, a "aggression detecting device" or a well trained teacher, it could be quite hard to "get rid" of the problem, at least here in germany where nearly every parent thinks that his child is the best, most beautiful, absolutely stunning child that ever lived, which couldn't do anything wrong in his whole life, so why do you even bother me with this, you dumb, incompetent teacher, and now go on with raising my child. - I guess you know what I mean.


I feel reminded of one particular kid that was in the boyscouts group which I led. It was pretty obvious that he had some issues with aggression, but I had no chance of dismissing him from the journey since his parents already paid for it. Also they were some rich snobs involved in local politics, so you better keep quiet if you want your little scouting thing to keep existing.

However, this kid decided to went on vacation with the scouts. As you might have guessed there are rules, such as "no smoking for children", which should be obvious. Never the less, he smoked. repeatedly, even in presence of the youngest kids we had with us. Taking the cigarets to the leaders tent didn't help, he just took them back as soon as nobody was watching. So I took the cigarets and disposed of them. The next day at the fireplace, said boy had to chop wood. I was working in the firepit as suddenly another one of the leaders shouted at me to duck - which I did, just before the axe that the boy has thrown at me would have hit me in the neck. The wooden shaft still managed to hit my shoulder.
I called the parents, let them pick up the child. A week later I got a letter from the police in which I was accused of stealing the cigarets and the scouts were closed.

In Hungary it is not permitted to buy any alcohols or cigarettes under age 18. I guess the guy was under 18, so it would have been interesting to know what would happen if you "steal" the cigarettes from someone who could not even possess that legally.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Ysjoelfir on July 03, 2019, 06:36:34 pm
He was 13, so, not even a chance he could have owned them legally.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Nominal Animal on July 03, 2019, 06:51:57 pm
He was 13
When the parents are hell bent in bringing up a self-entitled little criminal, there is not much anyone can do.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: james_s on July 04, 2019, 01:55:20 am
Surveillance is nearly useless, you'll be able to watch a video after the fact of what happens but if there's an incident it won't help. The rest of the time kids are not stupid, they will figure out exactly where all the cameras are located and where all the blind spots are.

In almost all of these incidents there were plenty of warning signs clearly visible after the fact. The key is to learn to spot these before something happens, and to make larger changes to society itself. As I see it the root of the problem is that kids for some reason now are deciding that murdering their classmates is the solution. It's not the weapons, they've always been there, it's not the lack of surveillance, we never had that before either. It's not just bullying, that's as old as the human race. *Something* has changed.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 04, 2019, 09:57:06 pm
How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate.

Because I live in Australia.

I see. When there are no security issues, you are more concerned about privacy. It is OK, but please do not apply your local knowledge worldwide. World is bigger than Australia, schools differ. As an extreme example I can mention that schools in Nigeria need armed guards.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: helius on July 06, 2019, 07:46:18 pm
I see. When there are no security issues, you are more concerned about privacy. It is OK, but please do not apply your local knowledge worldwide. World is bigger than Australia, schools differ. As an extreme example I can mention that schools in Nigeria need armed guards.
Luckily very few places in the world involve armed rebels who kidnap hundreds of children. So few, I would say, that this is a complete red herring.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 06, 2019, 08:19:51 pm
I see. When there are no security issues, you are more concerned about privacy. It is OK, but please do not apply your local knowledge worldwide. World is bigger than Australia, schools differ. As an extreme example I can mention that schools in Nigeria need armed guards.
Luckily very few places in the world involve armed rebels who kidnap hundreds of children. So few, I would say, that this is a complete red herring.

What's your point? Yes, extreme. Obviously not counting countries where currently war is going on. Fact that my example is "red herring" somehow disproves what I say that schools  around the world differ?
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Stray Electron on July 06, 2019, 08:33:46 pm


Is there a place where teachers are paid enough?

  Nope, not according to the teacher's unions.  OTOH there never will be either in their minds.  It's a UNION thing. And it has nothing to do with real world values.

   Teachers and their unions are just like politicians, their answer to every problem is "Give us more money."

    We now return you to the original topic of this thread.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 06, 2019, 08:34:30 pm
What else you can do in the *schools*? Psychologically profile each kid? As EEVblog already mentioned, potential shooter may look quite normal. Unless teachers are highly trained - they may miss one. Obviously cameras do not physically catch thieves as they do not stop shooters, yet I strongly disagree that video surveillance with audio assist in the schools is waste of the money. I wish school where my grand kid will be going to is equipped such way, but it is not. After all bullying and drugs are other problems schools have to worry about.
What do you think continuous video observation of your grand child is going to yield other than a very eery invasion of his or her personal life? The problem is that it doesn't actively protect anyone or anything. There are many examples of cities filled to the brim with CCTV and those are far from the safest places on Earth. Meanwhile there are all sorts of potential or quantifiable negative consequences. The panopticon is a nightmare, not a dream.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 06, 2019, 08:37:37 pm
I see. When there are no security issues, you are more concerned about privacy. It is OK, but please do not apply your local knowledge worldwide. World is bigger than Australia, schools differ. As an extreme example I can mention that schools in Nigeria need armed guards.
How is a video of armed rebels taking your child away in any way helpful? Also note that the malicious actors you're trying to protect your child against may also have access to the video system or feeds. People may be covertly monitoring your child and its behaviour and patterns for their own purposes. It may very well make matters worse, not better.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 06, 2019, 08:58:28 pm
What do you think continuous video observation of your grand child is going to yield other than a very eery invasion of his or her personal life?

Did you see kindergarden video I posted? If you think that security of your beloved/descendants is in danger, you are ready to trade their privacy to increase their security. It is obvious that security systems and guards invade privacy. If everything is ok - have a life. If not - then you have to trade something for your security.
 
Quote
The problem is that it doesn't actively protect anyone or anything.

Well, Mr.Obvious, I already said that:

Obviously cameras do not physically catch thieves as they do not stop shooters, yet I strongly disagree that video surveillance with audio assist in the schools is waste of the money.

If you need further stating of the obvious, then yes - CCTV systems needs operator. Lone video camera is useless.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 06, 2019, 09:03:20 pm
I see. When there are no security issues, you are more concerned about privacy. It is OK, but please do not apply your local knowledge worldwide. World is bigger than Australia, schools differ. As an extreme example I can mention that schools in Nigeria need armed guards.
How is a video of armed rebels taking your child away in any way helpful? Also note that the malicious actors you're trying to protect your child against may also have access to the video system or feeds.

I did say that schools in Nigeria needs armed guards, not video.  :palm:
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 06, 2019, 10:21:04 pm
Did you see kindergarden video I posted? If you think that security of your beloved/descendants is in danger, you are ready to trade their privacy to increase their security. It is obvious that security systems and guards invade privacy. If everything is ok - have a life. If not - then you have to trade something for your security.
 

Well, Mr.Obvious, I already said that:


If you need further stating of the obvious, then yes - CCTV systems needs operator. Lone video camera is useless.
Emotions aren't a very good basis for our actions, especially if they impact others. The evidence based route is the only way we can properly protect what we care about without hurting matters in the process. Many of the things we feel improve security aren't effective at all or are actively counterproductive. You're probably familiar with the term "security theatre". If there's one valuable lesson we can teach our children it's that you shouldn't introduce all kinds of measures willy-nilly.

Thinking cameras will prevent abuse is self deceit. The people caught usually turned off the cameras and simply forgot this time. Or children get beaten in exactly those corners cameras don't reach. It seems strange people are comfortable with the notion of unknown strangers continuously looking at their children.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 06, 2019, 10:36:44 pm
Or children get beaten in exactly those corners cameras don't reach.

If those are your children then tell them to not go into "corners cameras don't reach", or just apply for Darwin's award.

[edit] Do you have children?
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 06, 2019, 10:38:16 pm
If those are your children then tell them to not go into "corners cameras don't reach", or just apply for Darwin's award.
Why not just tell them to not get beaten? Much easier.  :-DD
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 06, 2019, 10:41:12 pm
Why not just tell them to not get beaten? Much easier.  :-DD

So you don't have kids yet have opinion. How typical
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 06, 2019, 11:22:50 pm
So you don't have kids yet have opinion. How typical
Can we please have a discussion with some decency? Fallacies and attempts to make it personal serve no one and won't convince anyone of your position.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 06, 2019, 11:43:29 pm
So you don't have kids yet have opinion. How typical
Can we please have a discussion with some decency? Fallacies and attempts to make it personal serve no one and won't convince anyone of your position.

If you do not have kids your opinion about kids is irrelevant.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Stray Electron on July 07, 2019, 12:05:32 am

If you do not have kids your opinion about kids is irrelevant.

     The stupidest thing that I've seen posted in this forum in a long time.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 07, 2019, 12:18:17 am

If you do not have kids your opinion about kids is irrelevant.

     The stupidest thing that I've seen posted in this forum in a long time.

How many kids do you have? ;)
[edit] Which country are you from?
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 07, 2019, 12:41:10 am
If you do not have kids your opinion about kids is irrelevant.
Squirting goo inside a lady's tickly bits doesn't grant you any special rights or privileges and doesn't grant your opinions any magical powers. Sorry. I kind of wish it did, because a lot of people could obviously bloody well use the help.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 07, 2019, 12:49:43 am
If you do not have kids your opinion about kids is irrelevant.
If you're not a criminal your opinion on crime is irrelevant.
If you're not a terrorist your opinion on terror is irreleant.
If you're not a tree your opinion about forrests is irreleant.
If you're not a unicorn your opinion about fairlytales is irrelevant.

Please stop with the personal questions and stay on topic.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 07, 2019, 12:57:55 am
Please stop with the personal questions and stay on topic.

My point about having kids or not was experience (with kids). You proudly stated:

Why not just tell them to not get beaten? Much easier.  :-DD

Every parent would laugh at you  :-DD Obviously I concluded that you are inexperienced with kids. If it is not true - sorry.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: SparkyFX on July 07, 2019, 01:14:27 am
Nope, not according to the teacher's unions.  OTOH there never will be either in their minds.  It's a UNION thing. And it has nothing to do with real world values.
This is the kind of problem money can´t solve. Of course, give them a crash course in psychology, which increases qualification and qualification theoretically means higher salary - OTOH if all teachers are required to have this qualification (which would be a factor to have an improvement) no one is going to earn more money.

And then teachers are just as good in this like everyone else (psychology is in itself not a hiring criteria for a teacher, depending on where you live anyone that wants to be a teacher is acceptable), which means thousands of false alarms are of no help and lead to measures way worse than surveillance. People treating people in an awkward way leads to awkward people... the negative aspects of such actions might overweigh in the long run.

There is some bias in this discussion anyway, for every case of violence there are probably thousands of cases in which students sorted it out themselves without any intervention or only a slight intervention. Maybe that would be the right place to start - teach the kids how to sort out conflicts instead of monitoring them to count how often they don´t. I am sure there are plenty of approaches already available for all age groups.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 07, 2019, 01:17:30 am
My point about having kids or not was experience (with kids). You proudly stated:

Every parent would laugh at you  :-DD Obviously I concluded that you are inexperienced with kids. If it is not true - sorry.
That was just a reply to show how unrealistic your own remark was:

If those are your children then tell them to not go into "corners cameras don't reach", or just apply for Darwin's award.

It's not as if children really have that choice if an adult says otherwise, especially in an abusive environment. If just telling them something would solve anything, the problem wouldn't exist in the first place.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 07, 2019, 01:31:41 am
It's not as if children really have that choice if an adult says otherwise, especially in an abusive environment. If just telling them something would solve anything, the problem wouldn't exist in the first place.

In an abusive environment your children needs much more than "not get beaten" advice anyway. As you confirmed your lack of experience (by not acknowledging it) - we can end our debate right now.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 07, 2019, 02:24:32 am
In an abusive environment your children needs much more than "not get beaten" advice anyway. As you confirmed your lack of experience (by not acknowledging it) - we can end our debate right now.
My remark was a sarcastic response to your comment about children needing to avoid corners without cameras. The notion that children have control over something like that is obviously naive and simplistic. I literally told you this in the previous post, but your story is so dependent on my completely speculative "lack of experience" that you still refuse to understand the nature of my comment. Just claim your comment was a joke and we'll pretend to believe you and we can move on.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: EEVblog on July 07, 2019, 02:33:44 am
How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate.

Because I live in Australia.

I see. When there are no security issues, you are more concerned about privacy. It is OK, but please do not apply your local knowledge worldwide. World is bigger than Australia, schools differ. As an extreme example I can mention that schools in Nigeria need armed guards.

I was not doing that, but it seems YOU are doing exactly that. There are countries that don't really have these concerns and therefore do not share your desire and push for security everywhere.
I feel sorry for those that live in countries that either feel the need or have the need for such security, or worse, draconian security like armed guards and metal detectors, and have debates in the halls of power about having teachers armed etc.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 07, 2019, 10:50:02 am
How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate.

Because I live in Australia.

I see. When there are no security issues, you are more concerned about privacy. It is OK, but please do not apply your local knowledge worldwide.

I was not doing that

Yes you did. Proof is in front of your eyes, quote in red.

Quote
but it seems YOU are doing exactly that.
There are countries that don't really have these concerns and therefore do not share your desire and push for security everywhere.

When I say that video surveillance with audio assist in the schools is NOT waste of the money, it does not automagically imply that I desire video surveillance everywhere. Kinda obvious that places w/o security problems do not need video surveillance. I am sorry that it had to be stated.

[edit] Relevant article (https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/parenting/school-life/armed-guards-increasingly-common-in-australian-schools/news-story/cf6cf81bd9e2c6fba11f3409dbf86759) about cameras and *armed* guards in schools of Australia. Some numbers here (https://www.secta.com.au/index.php/secta-blog/120-security-guards-at-schools-in-australia).
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 07, 2019, 11:51:13 am
Just claim your comment was a joke and we'll pretend to believe you and we can move on.
How else you can name thread where computer/electronics nerds are talking about parenting kids using video cameras? :popcorn:
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: james_s on July 07, 2019, 06:19:13 pm

If you do not have kids your opinion about kids is irrelevant.

     The stupidest thing that I've seen posted in this forum in a long time.

Agreed, it completely ignores the fact that all of us were kids at one point in time and some of us still remember being kids.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 07, 2019, 07:58:36 pm

If you do not have kids your opinion about kids is irrelevant.

     The stupidest thing that I've seen posted in this forum in a long time.

Agreed, it completely ignores the fact that all of us were kids at one point in time and some of us still remember being kids.

Both of you are completely missing the point. I did mean something like this: https://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/10-things-only-parents-will-understand.html (https://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/10-things-only-parents-will-understand.html). Most likely there are much better examples of "parents will understand", but it was first hit.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Mr. Scram on July 07, 2019, 08:09:47 pm
Both of you are completely missing the point. I did mean something like this: https://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/10-things-only-parents-will-understand.html (https://www.lifehack.org/articles/lifestyle/10-things-only-parents-will-understand.html). Most likely there are much better examples of "parents will understand", but it was first hit.
You keep dragging things into the discussion that have nothing to do with it. You insist on introducing emotions and irrelevant qualifiers to a discussion which isn't served by them. It's the only what you think you can score points, because you know the factual discussion is already lost. However, be warned that others can too can play that game. The article you linked shows parents have a terrible judgement and are barely functional as normal human beings. Whoops! It turns out the opinion of parents is irrelevant. Or maybe you actually don't want to play this game.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Stray Electron on July 07, 2019, 08:10:51 pm

If you do not have kids your opinion about kids is irrelevant.

     The stupidest thing that I've seen posted in this forum in a long time.

How many kids do you have? ;)
[edit] Which country are you from?

   That's totally irrelevant to your asinine remark but I'll play along.  I have two. One is an extremely successful lawyer in Washington DC and a member of the United States Supreme Court Bar Association.  The other lives in California and is software developer for a well known video game company  and well known video game blogger. 

        And you?????

  I live in the US but I'm not "from" here.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 07, 2019, 08:32:42 pm
        And you?????

College-age kid. Satisfied now?

The article you linked shows parents have a terrible judgement and are barely functional as normal human beings.

 :clap:  Can't ask for better confirmation of my point.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: EEVblog on July 08, 2019, 09:11:27 am
How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate.

Because I live in Australia.

I see. When there are no security issues, you are more concerned about privacy. It is OK, but please do not apply your local knowledge worldwide.

I was not doing that

Yes you did. Proof is in front of your eyes, quote in red.

Quote
but it seems YOU are doing exactly that.
There are countries that don't really have these concerns and therefore do not share your desire and push for security everywhere.

When I say that video surveillance with audio assist in the schools is NOT waste of the money, it does not automagically imply that I desire video surveillance everywhere. Kinda obvious that places w/o security problems do not need video surveillance. I am sorry that it had to be stated.

Wow. The inability to comprehend your own reasoning is staggering.
You are the one that asked me "How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate."
I replied "Because I live in Australia" implying that we don't have those concerns here.
Now you imply that is proof I'm trying to "apply my local knowledge worldwide"  :palm:

As to you not implying that you desire video surveillance everywhere, your own question to me above proves otherwise: "How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate."

This is just silly.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ogden on July 08, 2019, 10:03:31 am
You are the one that asked me "How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate."

You came-up with "novel concept" - train teachers with money of surveillance, not specifying any particular school or country. I implied that you did mean US schools with security problems mentioned in the OP. To suit your narrative of your "novel concept", you suddenly decided that you talk about schools of Australia, not US. I answered - you shall not apply your local knowledge worldwide.

Quote
As to you not implying that you desire video surveillance everywhere, your own question to me above proves otherwise: "How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate."

This is just silly.

You implying that I desire security measures in schools w/o security problems - that's silly.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: ebastler on July 08, 2019, 11:09:57 am
 :horse:   ...   :=\
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: EEVblog on July 08, 2019, 11:59:21 am
You are the one that asked me "How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate."
You came-up with "novel concept" - train teachers with money of surveillance, not specifying any particular school or country.

This entire thread is about using government security money to buy useless aggression detectors. Yes, that money can be better spent training and enabling teachers, IMO it's a top way to spend the money and get benefits to the kids who need it.
The providers of this system are just milking the cash cow with useless impractical technology.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: SparkyFX on July 08, 2019, 02:17:26 pm
Quote
You came-up with "novel concept" - train teachers with money of surveillance, not specifying any particular school or country. I implied that you did mean US schools with security problems mentioned in the OP. To suit your narrative of your "novel concept", you suddenly decided that you talk about schools of Australia, not US. I answered - you shall not apply your local knowledge worldwide.
Kids are practically the same everywhere, i.e. the same psychological processes (regarding learning, stress, pressure, conflicts) apply everywhere. The causes might be coming from different directions, but why should that matter, it ends up in brains that work similar and there are limits to what people can take.

Trying to solve social problems with technology is however a hopeless case, because people tend to assume technology is a shortcut to compensate a lack of consciousness of all sorts. But it usually is not, it leads to an even bigger lack of consciousness, is used as an excuse, abused or outright worked around - even if it works perfectly fine, which is rarely the case.

I won´t argue that technology can speed things up and therefore acts like a catalyst in many cases, but it rarely changes why people interact in a certain way on the social level with each other, so if you are concerned about members of a society to cross lines, what would hold them from avoiding this line and cross it somewhere else. It is just messing around with symptoms, not helping with the causes.

You´d practically need to put everyone in jail (including the guards, btw.) if you would want to have some control over this - and even in jails people find ways around rules, because the reasons are unchanged.

The providers of this system are just milking the cash cow with useless impractical technology.
And they build up on the same fearmongering that will not solve the problem as well.
Title: Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
Post by: Richard Crowley on August 16, 2019, 01:39:11 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rVQGT01Kzg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rVQGT01Kzg)

I just got the joke connection   :palm:
He is using the "violation tickets" because they don't have toilet paper anymore.