Author Topic: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students  (Read 2402 times)

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Online EEVblog

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2019, 08:12:23 am »
Either way "aggression detectors" strike me as just another reactionary thing that tries to focus on a symptom while ignoring the root cause(s).
What else you can do in the *schools*? Psychologically profile each kid?

Yep, that's called a teacher.
Sure they aren't physiologists, but they aren't stupid either, and they heave years and decades of dealing with countless kids daily. They are in the best position to notice and track changes in students for a start. They likely know the kids better than their parents do.
How about this novel concept, take that "security" money and train the teachers on a suitable psychology course. Perhaps instigate some sort of system that enables them to easily note or track changes in students perhaps. Maybe then you can get a system that gives a "trigger warning" based on real teacher monitored feedback. There's a Startup opportunity for you, and one that might actually work. Mention blockchain and it's instant grant money.
Novel concept I know to let a teacher know and understand their kids, and give them agency to do things when they suspect something is wrong.

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As EEVblog already mentioned, potential shooter may look quite normal. Unless teachers are highly trained - they may miss one.


Inevitable regardless of what you do in such a society that had an average of one school shooting every 8 days in 2018.
But warning, this thread had better not turn into a gun debate.

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Obviously cameras do not physically catch thieves as they do not stop shooters, yet I strongly disagree that video surveillance with audio assist in the schools is waste of the money. I wish school where my grand kid will be going to is equipped such way, but it is not.

Be careful what you wish for.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2019, 08:16:09 am »
Speaking of psychologists in schools, I once ran the numbers on how much money we spent on our embarrassing "chaplain" service in schools, and how many trained psychologists we could hire full time with that money. IIRC it was enough for one full time psychologist for every two schools at least.
Pretty darn good, but instead of that we give the money to a private service that provides religiously motivated untrained "chaplains", what a joke. But at least better than this bogus detector thingo.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 08:17:58 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline dzseki

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2019, 08:40:23 am »
Teachers and administrators should pull their ass out of their smartphones and get to know the students! WTF

Wake up people! Be aware of the living breathing humans in your surroundings.

F___ the AI ideas.

US teachers are barely paid enough to care, let alone to do all the extra work that's required of them which doesn't have anything to do with the students.  It's a miracle anything gets done in schools at all - it's down to the ones who go above and beyond despite the active interference of the school admins and boards.

If you want a solution, start paying the teachers commensurate with their responsibility and let them do their jobs.

Is there a place where teachers are paid enough?
Interesting that nobody brought up the parent's responsibility in this. IMHO it is a misconception that the school should raise the children, no, it is the parent's main duty, schools are only aiding to that.

AI probably could detect such aggression, but what about preventing it from the core?
 

Offline ogden

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2019, 09:16:46 am »
Yep, that's called a teacher. Sure they aren't physiologists, but they aren't stupid either, and they heave years and decades of dealing with countless kids daily.
They are in the best position to notice and track changes in students for a start. They likely know the kids better than their parents do.

I totally agree with you here. Teachers with at least decade(s) of full time job experience, highly trained to see early indications of problems, kids are not left alone even during breaks and so on. - Just wishful thinking if we talk about common schools for kids of usual people.

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How about this novel concept, take that "security" money and train the teachers on a suitable psychology course.

Strongly disagree. Both CCTV and training needed. Perhaps one particular school in your mind is fortress with physical security perimeter w/o any chance for anybody to sneak in - that's why you say that implementing video security is waste of the money? Honestly I am puzzled here. How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate.

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Obviously cameras do not physically catch thieves as they do not stop shooters, yet I strongly disagree that video surveillance with audio assist in the schools is waste of the money. I wish school where my grand kid will be going to is equipped such way, but it is not.

Be careful what you wish for.

 :-// What if there were no CCTV in this kindergarden? https://youtu.be/bqj_xWvPLoI?t=1
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 11:14:59 am by ogden »
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2019, 12:54:04 pm »
Strongly disagree. Both CCTV and training needed. Perhaps one particular school in your mind is fortress with physical security perimeter w/o any chance for anybody to sneak in - that's why you say that implementing video security is waste of the money? Honestly I am puzzled here. How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate.

Because I live in Australia.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2019, 12:57:04 pm »
Interesting that nobody brought up the parent's responsibility in this.

Because that's a much harder problem to do something significant about, some would say impossible.
 

Offline Ysjoelfir

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2019, 01:00:05 pm »
A problem I see is, that even if there is a problem detected, wether it is detected by some magic sorcery, a "aggression detecting device" or a well trained teacher, it could be quite hard to "get rid" of the problem, at least here in germany where nearly every parent thinks that his child is the best, most beautiful, absolutely stunning child that ever lived, which couldn't do anything wrong in his whole life, so why do you even bother me with this, you dumb, incompetent teacher, and now go on with raising my child. - I guess you know what I mean.


I feel reminded of one particular kid that was in the boyscouts group which I led. It was pretty obvious that he had some issues with aggression, but I had no chance of dismissing him from the journey since his parents already paid for it. Also they were some rich snobs involved in local politics, so you better keep quiet if you want your little scouting thing to keep existing.

However, this kid decided to went on vacation with the scouts. As you might have guessed there are rules, such as "no smoking for children", which should be obvious. Never the less, he smoked. repeatedly, even in presence of the youngest kids we had with us. Taking the cigarets to the leaders tent didn't help, he just took them back as soon as nobody was watching. So I took the cigarets and disposed of them. The next day at the fireplace, said boy had to chop wood. I was working in the firepit as suddenly another one of the leaders shouted at me to duck - which I did, just before the axe that the boy has thrown at me would have hit me in the neck. The wooden shaft still managed to hit my shoulder.
I called the parents, let them pick up the child. A week later I got a letter from the police in which I was accused of stealing the cigarets and the scouts were closed.
Greetings, Kai \ Ysjoelfir
 

Offline dzseki

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2019, 01:58:42 pm »
A problem I see is, that even if there is a problem detected, wether it is detected by some magic sorcery, a "aggression detecting device" or a well trained teacher, it could be quite hard to "get rid" of the problem, at least here in germany where nearly every parent thinks that his child is the best, most beautiful, absolutely stunning child that ever lived, which couldn't do anything wrong in his whole life, so why do you even bother me with this, you dumb, incompetent teacher, and now go on with raising my child. - I guess you know what I mean.


I feel reminded of one particular kid that was in the boyscouts group which I led. It was pretty obvious that he had some issues with aggression, but I had no chance of dismissing him from the journey since his parents already paid for it. Also they were some rich snobs involved in local politics, so you better keep quiet if you want your little scouting thing to keep existing.

However, this kid decided to went on vacation with the scouts. As you might have guessed there are rules, such as "no smoking for children", which should be obvious. Never the less, he smoked. repeatedly, even in presence of the youngest kids we had with us. Taking the cigarets to the leaders tent didn't help, he just took them back as soon as nobody was watching. So I took the cigarets and disposed of them. The next day at the fireplace, said boy had to chop wood. I was working in the firepit as suddenly another one of the leaders shouted at me to duck - which I did, just before the axe that the boy has thrown at me would have hit me in the neck. The wooden shaft still managed to hit my shoulder.
I called the parents, let them pick up the child. A week later I got a letter from the police in which I was accused of stealing the cigarets and the scouts were closed.

In Hungary it is not permitted to buy any alcohols or cigarettes under age 18. I guess the guy was under 18, so it would have been interesting to know what would happen if you "steal" the cigarettes from someone who could not even possess that legally.
 

Offline Ysjoelfir

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2019, 06:36:34 pm »
He was 13, so, not even a chance he could have owned them legally.
Greetings, Kai \ Ysjoelfir
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #34 on: July 03, 2019, 06:51:57 pm »
He was 13
When the parents are hell bent in bringing up a self-entitled little criminal, there is not much anyone can do.
 

Online james_s

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2019, 01:55:20 am »
Surveillance is nearly useless, you'll be able to watch a video after the fact of what happens but if there's an incident it won't help. The rest of the time kids are not stupid, they will figure out exactly where all the cameras are located and where all the blind spots are.

In almost all of these incidents there were plenty of warning signs clearly visible after the fact. The key is to learn to spot these before something happens, and to make larger changes to society itself. As I see it the root of the problem is that kids for some reason now are deciding that murdering their classmates is the solution. It's not the weapons, they've always been there, it's not the lack of surveillance, we never had that before either. It's not just bullying, that's as old as the human race. *Something* has changed.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2019, 09:57:06 pm »
How parent can be against video surveillance in the school (perimeter, entrance, hallways)? Please elaborate.

Because I live in Australia.

I see. When there are no security issues, you are more concerned about privacy. It is OK, but please do not apply your local knowledge worldwide. World is bigger than Australia, schools differ. As an extreme example I can mention that schools in Nigeria need armed guards.
 

Offline helius

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #37 on: July 06, 2019, 07:46:18 pm »
I see. When there are no security issues, you are more concerned about privacy. It is OK, but please do not apply your local knowledge worldwide. World is bigger than Australia, schools differ. As an extreme example I can mention that schools in Nigeria need armed guards.
Luckily very few places in the world involve armed rebels who kidnap hundreds of children. So few, I would say, that this is a complete red herring.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #38 on: July 06, 2019, 08:19:51 pm »
I see. When there are no security issues, you are more concerned about privacy. It is OK, but please do not apply your local knowledge worldwide. World is bigger than Australia, schools differ. As an extreme example I can mention that schools in Nigeria need armed guards.
Luckily very few places in the world involve armed rebels who kidnap hundreds of children. So few, I would say, that this is a complete red herring.

What's your point? Yes, extreme. Obviously not counting countries where currently war is going on. Fact that my example is "red herring" somehow disproves what I say that schools  around the world differ?
 

Offline Stray Electron

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #39 on: July 06, 2019, 08:33:46 pm »


Is there a place where teachers are paid enough?

  Nope, not according to the teacher's unions.  OTOH there never will be either in their minds.  It's a UNION thing. And it has nothing to do with real world values.

   Teachers and their unions are just like politicians, their answer to every problem is "Give us more money."

    We now return you to the original topic of this thread.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2019, 08:34:30 pm »
What else you can do in the *schools*? Psychologically profile each kid? As EEVblog already mentioned, potential shooter may look quite normal. Unless teachers are highly trained - they may miss one. Obviously cameras do not physically catch thieves as they do not stop shooters, yet I strongly disagree that video surveillance with audio assist in the schools is waste of the money. I wish school where my grand kid will be going to is equipped such way, but it is not. After all bullying and drugs are other problems schools have to worry about.
What do you think continuous video observation of your grand child is going to yield other than a very eery invasion of his or her personal life? The problem is that it doesn't actively protect anyone or anything. There are many examples of cities filled to the brim with CCTV and those are far from the safest places on Earth. Meanwhile there are all sorts of potential or quantifiable negative consequences. The panopticon is a nightmare, not a dream.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2019, 08:37:37 pm »
I see. When there are no security issues, you are more concerned about privacy. It is OK, but please do not apply your local knowledge worldwide. World is bigger than Australia, schools differ. As an extreme example I can mention that schools in Nigeria need armed guards.
How is a video of armed rebels taking your child away in any way helpful? Also note that the malicious actors you're trying to protect your child against may also have access to the video system or feeds. People may be covertly monitoring your child and its behaviour and patterns for their own purposes. It may very well make matters worse, not better.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2019, 08:58:28 pm »
What do you think continuous video observation of your grand child is going to yield other than a very eery invasion of his or her personal life?

Did you see kindergarden video I posted? If you think that security of your beloved/descendants is in danger, you are ready to trade their privacy to increase their security. It is obvious that security systems and guards invade privacy. If everything is ok - have a life. If not - then you have to trade something for your security.
 
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The problem is that it doesn't actively protect anyone or anything.

Well, Mr.Obvious, I already said that:

Obviously cameras do not physically catch thieves as they do not stop shooters, yet I strongly disagree that video surveillance with audio assist in the schools is waste of the money.

If you need further stating of the obvious, then yes - CCTV systems needs operator. Lone video camera is useless.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2019, 09:03:20 pm »
I see. When there are no security issues, you are more concerned about privacy. It is OK, but please do not apply your local knowledge worldwide. World is bigger than Australia, schools differ. As an extreme example I can mention that schools in Nigeria need armed guards.
How is a video of armed rebels taking your child away in any way helpful? Also note that the malicious actors you're trying to protect your child against may also have access to the video system or feeds.

I did say that schools in Nigeria needs armed guards, not video.  :palm:
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2019, 10:21:04 pm »
Did you see kindergarden video I posted? If you think that security of your beloved/descendants is in danger, you are ready to trade their privacy to increase their security. It is obvious that security systems and guards invade privacy. If everything is ok - have a life. If not - then you have to trade something for your security.
 

Well, Mr.Obvious, I already said that:


If you need further stating of the obvious, then yes - CCTV systems needs operator. Lone video camera is useless.
Emotions aren't a very good basis for our actions, especially if they impact others. The evidence based route is the only way we can properly protect what we care about without hurting matters in the process. Many of the things we feel improve security aren't effective at all or are actively counterproductive. You're probably familiar with the term "security theatre". If there's one valuable lesson we can teach our children it's that you shouldn't introduce all kinds of measures willy-nilly.

Thinking cameras will prevent abuse is self deceit. The people caught usually turned off the cameras and simply forgot this time. Or children get beaten in exactly those corners cameras don't reach. It seems strange people are comfortable with the notion of unknown strangers continuously looking at their children.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2019, 10:36:44 pm »
Or children get beaten in exactly those corners cameras don't reach.

If those are your children then tell them to not go into "corners cameras don't reach", or just apply for Darwin's award.

[edit] Do you have children?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2019, 10:38:38 pm by ogden »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2019, 10:38:16 pm »
If those are your children then tell them to not go into "corners cameras don't reach", or just apply for Darwin's award.
Why not just tell them to not get beaten? Much easier.  :-DD
 

Offline ogden

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2019, 10:41:12 pm »
Why not just tell them to not get beaten? Much easier.  :-DD

So you don't have kids yet have opinion. How typical
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2019, 11:22:50 pm »
So you don't have kids yet have opinion. How typical
Can we please have a discussion with some decency? Fallacies and attempts to make it personal serve no one and won't convince anyone of your position.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: "Aggression Detectors" installed in schools to monitor students
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2019, 11:43:29 pm »
So you don't have kids yet have opinion. How typical
Can we please have a discussion with some decency? Fallacies and attempts to make it personal serve no one and won't convince anyone of your position.

If you do not have kids your opinion about kids is irrelevant.
 


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