BMW to start charging subscription fees to use features already in your car

[Halcyon]

Free lifetime maps have been around for a long time and it's not unreasonable for a consumer that pays good money for a vehicle, to expect that functionality to continue for as long as the map provider releases those updates. free maps that you can download and update yourself.

After TomTom redefined "lifetime" and stopped updating maps for lot of GPS models, TomTom lost a lot of customers.

I remember that, which is why I purchased a Garmin GPS back then. Whilst the battery is long gone in it, it still has free updates to this day (not that I use it anymore).

[janoc]

Free lifetime maps have been around for a long time and it's not unreasonable for a consumer that pays good money for a vehicle, to expect that functionality to continue for as long as the map provider releases those updates. free maps that you can download and update yourself.

After TomTom redefined "lifetime" and stopped updating maps for lot of GPS models, TomTom lost a lot of customers.

Did they? Are you referring to the recent flop that they wanted to stop supporting traffic information updates (not maps) on some older GPS models? They have backtracked pretty quickly on that. I know because I have an older GO 5000 that has been affected. First I got an e-mail about them stopping support for the built-in GSM module (which would disable live traffic information and speed radar updates)  - and about a month later that the they have changed their mind and it will still be supported.

With TomTom maps the difficulty is mainly that they are huge - and simply won't fit into the older models without a lot of work. Even for my GO 5000 I had problems and had to turn off/remove stuff like 3D buildings because the maps didn't fit in the memory - and some parts can't be installed on the SD card.

Still not great but GO 5000 is 8 years old model and is still supported with maps and updates. So I guess it is not so hot about TomTom.

Of course, if my car stopped "being supported" after 8 years, that would be a different story.  But consumer gear? I guess we shouldn't expect that "lifetime" means the "lifetime" of the owner 

Re Garmin - I had a Garmin satnav before but ended up selling it and getting the TomTom because when the GPS repeatedly crashes and reboots just as you are nearing a large and complex crossing in Paris due to running out of memory with all those signs and markers on the map, it is useless. Also Garmin map updates were pretty expensive, TomTom had them (and still does) free, at least for my model.

Anyhow, these days I mostly use my phone or the built-in GPS in my car when I need a map/navigation and TomTom sits in the box. Back in the day it had its place because cellular data was expensive (even more so when roaming abroad!) and coverage was spotty. These days, not so much.

[james_s]

I mostly use my phone for navigation these days but I do keep my Garmin GPS. The reason being there are still substantial areas where I go hiking and camping and such that lack cellular service, and my smartphone plan only works in the US, so if I visit Canada the Garmin is the only alternative.

[PlainName]

Still not great but GO 5000 is 8 years old model and is still supported with maps and updates. So I guess it is not so hot about TomTom.

My Garmin 390LM is 9 years old (actually it is younger but the model is at least that age). Still gets maps and updates.

Also Garmin map updates were pretty expensive

All free for me. The 'LM' means 'Lifetime Maps'.

I guess we shouldn't expect that "lifetime" means the "lifetime" of the owner

I take it to mean "as long as anyone uses them". If they don't really mean lifetime then they shouldn't advertise as such.

Having said that, it is caveat emptor in most cases. Which is why I will never buy another TomTom regardless of what they promise.

[JPortici]

People who buy a BMW or Mercedes are probably not likely to hack it.

you would be surprised

[janoc]

People who buy a BMW or Mercedes are probably not likely to hack it.

you would be surprised

99% won't. That the 1% will hack and mess with everything and anything as a matter of course really doesn't bother the manufacturers.

[BrianHG]

People who buy a BMW or Mercedes are probably not likely to hack it.

you would be surprised

     Buyers of brand new BMWs will not.  Those buying second hand used BMWs will.  And it probably wont be the buyers themselves, but the used car lot where they got the second hand car which would be offering the hack.

     Mercedes to a lesser extent, but probably the same story.

[janoc]

All free for me. The 'LM' means 'Lifetime Maps'.

Yes, I think Garmin started to introduce this around the same time that I have got the TomTom (who, I believe, had it first) because of competition pressure. For the older models you had to buy maps for like 60€ each time you wanted to update.

It also wasn't on all newer models (TomTom didn't/doesn't have it on all models either).

[janoc]

     Buyers of brand new BMWs will not.  Those buying second hand used BMWs will.  And it probably wont be the buyers themselves, but the used car lot where they got the second hand car which would be offering the hack.

     Mercedes to a lesser extent, but probably the same story.

Given how complicated/painful it is to update/reprogram anything on BMW, I kinda doubt it. BMW has literally everything serialized, you replace any sort of small module (e.g. the one that controls interior lighting - and which commonly dies and then you are left without locks, lights, etc) - and without the special BMW software with the "secret sauce" codes you can't make it work.

For the older BMWs the software and tools are available from various shady places, for the newer ones, not so much. Oh and if anything goes wrong during the painfully slow process, you could literally "brick" your car. People go to such extent as to buy special power supplies that are meant to keep the voltage on the car power rails stable during the long process (the battery would drain otherwise, making it fail and potentially brick something).

My former boss was a BMW owner and we were constantly looking into how to get things fixed on it without having to pay exorbitant premiums the dealers charge for it.

In short, if you want to hack and work on your car, don't buy a BMW. I am surprised that they aren't welding the hood shut yet.

[PlainName]

All free for me. The 'LM' means 'Lifetime Maps'.

Yes, I think Garmin started to introduce this around the same time that I have got the TomTom (who, I believe, had it first) because of competition pressure. For the older models you had to buy maps for like 60€ each time you wanted to update.

To be fair, they probably made the cost back of many map updates from the original selling price

[MrMobodies]

BMW has literally everything serialized, you replace any sort of * small module - which commonly dies and then you are left without locks, lights, etc) - and without the special BMW software with the "secret sauce" codes you can't make it work.

* That sounds very stupid to me.
No locks? Doesn't that leave the car at risk?

So they are not offering this "special BMW software" with the appropriate codes for the car to the customers at the time when they are buying the car?

Imagine that many years ago but the manufacturers making special shapes of screws and bolts and tools that only them and they dealers would have and I wonder how popular they would be then.

I refuse to buy anything that does that to me. I don't think it would belong to me if they make things break easily like that, all set in a way to inconvenience, cause problems and work against the owner every step of the way into obtaining these replacements parts for what sounds to me like ransom and extortion.

With the serializations, I take it they don't trust the owners. Well isn't it time that the car owners stop trusting car manufacturers that do this sort of thing.

I had something happen to me once with a shower from Triton that a builder put in without giving me a choice where they patented the fittings and the hoses were poor quality plastic that easily broke and they charged extortionate prices for them. I didn't give into it and used the broken hose which caused me a inconvenience every day. I manage to get the hose for £15 (instead of £60) from a bathroom shop that went into administration. Now I always check bathroom fittings for this sort of thing.

Just found this:

BMW launches heated seat and steering wheel subscription service in the UK
Didn’t spec a heated wheel when you bought your BMW? You can now activate it for £10 per month...
Greg Potts Published: 14 Jul 2022
BMW has launched its optional extras subscriptions service in the UK, with owners now able to activate certain techy features (that weren’t specced when the car was built) by paying a monthly fee.

Yes, you did read that correctly. A number of features have been added to BMW’s UK-based ConnectedDrive Store including heated front seats (£15 per month), heated steering wheel (£10 per month), automatic high beams (£10 per month) and the ‘Driving Assistant Plus’ active cruise control (£35 per month).

Own a BMW? If you log in to the online shop it’ll bring up the options available for your specific car, and if you really want to be paying monthly to warm your bum then the feature will be activated via an over-the-air update. And yes, that does mean all the hardware needed to heat the seat/steering wheel was already built into the car.

Not a fan of the subscription model? Each feature can be bought outright and there are others that aren’t available for a monthly fee. That includes – get this – Adaptive M Suspension that can be added retrospectively for £399 simply by clicking ‘add to basket’ on the online shop.

I didn't see that last time I looked at the connected drive URL.

Maybe they updated it to include it.
Nope:
https://www.bmw.com/en-au/shop/ls/cp/connected-drive
I see that is not on the Australian store.

In the UK store they have it as a monthly, yearly charge or unlimited.
https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/dp/Seat_Heating_SFA_gb

That's nice to have the unlimited option but I wonder how long they will provide that for in future.

I found something which I think is also very stupid:
https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/dp/Base_OE_Voucher_gb

Online Entertainment Voucher

A range of music you can’t refuse  : with BMW Online Entertainment you have unlimited access to more than 30 million music tracks.
£ 179.00 (incl. VAT} 12 months

DESCRIPTION
A free choice of music wherever you are: BMW Online Entertainment offers you direct and unlimited access to more than 30 million music tracks. You can use the BMW Music flat-rate voucher to open an account for unlimited music access with a BMW Music partner (currently Deezer or Napster).

The advantages for you:
Access to more than 30 million songs by flat-rate account with a BMW music partner (at the moment Deezer or Napster)
Music downloads are possible in the vehicle onto the built-in hard disc
2 Music account is transferrable to other devices
Works in 10 EU countries with no additional costs

The offer includes:
Music flat-rate voucher (valid after activation, redeemable within 3 years)
Mobile data flat-rate
Attention: To start using the service, you have to redeem the BMW Music flat-rate voucher in the vehicle first. This can be done by registering at one of the BMW music partners in your vehicle at Multimedia > Online Entertainment. May only be available with additional optional equipment. Availability of BMW ConnectedDrive Services are dependent on vehicle specification, optional equipment and production date. Please consult your local BMW Retailer for more information if required.

I wonder who'd want that?

I think I will bring my own tracks in which I have either collected or paid for already.

2 Now if the music is downloaded and copied into a common DRM FREE format to be played on any device or media player then that might add an incentive but it still seems to me like a lot of money to me. On the other hand it is not essential and more like an addon unless they stop their radio playing stuff until you purchase a package.

[bdunham7]

What is the ⁽¹⁾ footnote for the Unlimited option?  Are they going to tell you that the option is not transferrable to subsequent owners?

[Someone]

What is the ⁽¹⁾ footnote for the Unlimited option?  Are they going to tell you that the option is not transferrable to subsequent owners?

Because you cant read the linked webpage source of the image? (yes the poster was slack in not including it).

[1] Unlimited as long as the technical prerequisites are met for this vehicle

[MrMobodies]

bdunham7, Quite right to be skeptical.

Looking for what I perceive as fancy looking words:

[1] Unlimited as long as the technical prerequisites are met for this vehicle

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/prerequisite

Something that must exist or happen before something else can exist or happen:
Passing a written test is a prerequisite for taking the advanced course.
Public support is a prerequisite for/to the success of this project.
They had to agree to certain conditions as a prerequisite of being lent the money.

Sounds ambiguous to me which reminds me about the articles that I have been reading about the UK housing leasehold scandal when they word the contract in such a way where they make it mean what they want it to mean.

Someone, I just checked and I did include the URL's or maybe I misunderstood.

Heated seats:
https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/dp/Seat_Heating_SFA_gb

Music entertainment voucher:
https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/dp/Base_OE_Voucher_gb

Sorry I didn't include "Unlimited as long as the technical prerequisites are met for this vehicle" in the post.

Maybe I should give them a call tomorrow to find out what they mean by that.

[themadhippy]

I think I will bring my own tracks in which I have either collected or paid for already.

certainly sir,please select the "play my own music" option in our online store or ask our dealer  to include it in your custom additions package,its available  on a monthly or annual subscription.

[Someone]

Maybe I should give them a call tomorrow to find out what they mean by that.

No need to get hung up on faux-lawyering and trying to stretch definitions of words, its pretty obvious to anyone who has followed "smart"/connected car (accessories) that they will support it until:
a) the onboard modem no longer connects to the network
or with a more cynical view of modern consumer electronics...
b) the service provider decides to packup shop/discontinue the product because it wasn't profitable enough for them
c) the hardware is declared obsolete and no new firmware updates are provided
d) the hardware is declared "inadequate" as the newest application bloated again and wont run smoothly, newest firmware update removes the function for you

Its not like this is some new, never used before, sort of service/contract. Its a known risk:
https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/the-truth-about-mercedes-benz-ownership-in-australia

[nigelwright7557]

Sadly its becoming a more subscription like world in many areas.

I don't agree with BMW charging for sat nav updates which would have to be updated anyway for new cars. Its not like its not being paid for already.

[MrMobodies]

No need to get hung up on faux-lawyering and trying to stretch definitions of words, its pretty obvious to anyone who has followed "smart"/connected car (accessories) that they will support it until:
a) the onboard modem no longer connects to the network or with a more cynical view of modern consumer electronics...
b) the service provider decides to packup shop/discontinue the product because it wasn't profitable enough for them
c) the hardware is declared obsolete and no new firmware updates are provided
d) the hardware is declared "inadequate" as the newest application bloated again and wont run smoothly, newest firmware update removes the function for you

Sorry if I get carried away I have been taken in many times before and now I like to clarify things.

If there is notice that a feature will be removed in the next firmware update then I can understand that as long as I am given a choice not to install it.

In my case I want the things I buy to be left alone until I decide. If they stop supporting something and it naturally doesn't work when external services it connects to are changed over time when it is connected up then I can understand that too. I don't want my car to be connected up remotely where they have remote control over it. The same goes with my solar panel that is due to be installed. I was told they'd have to send people around to update it manually if there is a known safety issue. I'd prefer that and at least if it failed during the update it will be in front of them and not behind my back and they'd have to act straight away.

There maybe features I depend on that don't need broadband access to operate that they might decide to remove and add things in it's place that I may not want on there and serve no purpose to me.

Now the solar panel system that is going in has an lcd and shows everything. To look further it requires, wifi (no cable) which is a big nono, a phone, "an app" and the manufacturers hosting to view other details, diagnostics run from their services remotely and you can change parameters like the voltages and remote firmware updates direct from the manufacture in China which I am not happy about.

Now they can either decide to stop supporting that access to their website or start charging subscription fees when they decide it costing them too much to maintain.

My old system had this Sunny webbox datalogger provided with it, the software, system requirements, so I can piece together a computer of what is needed to interface to it, diagnose and check the inverter and solar panels, all in house and independent of what goes on out there.

That's why I want the things I buy to be left alone.

certainly sir,please select the "play my own music" option in our online store or ask our dealer  to include it in your custom additions package,its available  on a monthly or annual subscription.

I will use whatever means I can whether it be an analogue input if there is one or through an FM transmitter to use the in car speakers.

I'll say to the salesman like I normally do, I got my own equipment thank you very much, it works perfectly, does the job fine, works in the way I want it to and I am very happy with it why change it.

[Someone]

No need to get hung up on faux-lawyering and trying to stretch definitions of words, its pretty obvious to anyone who has followed "smart"/connected car (accessories) that they will support it until:
a) the onboard modem no longer connects to the network or with a more cynical view of modern consumer electronics...
b) the service provider decides to packup shop/discontinue the product because it wasn't profitable enough for them
c) the hardware is declared obsolete and no new firmware updates are provided
d) the hardware is declared "inadequate" as the newest application bloated again and wont run smoothly, newest firmware update removes the function for you

If they stop supporting something and it naturally doesn't work when external services it connects to are changed over time when it is connected up then I can understand that too.

This is probably the only point were I (and others) would disagree. If you buy a device (or in this case a subscription) to use a service, then your contract is with the seller, it's on them to continue providing/supporting it as paid for. This was a problem with "smart" TVs, advertised and sold for connecting to online streaming services (youtube, broadcast "freeview", etc). But they all pointed fingers at each other as to who was responsible for maintaining the software. End result, a smart TV that within a few years of purchase wont connect to the services, despite the services continuing and the smart TV manufacturer pushing out (forced/bundled) updates that would remove the no longer functioning apps.

This is becoming a more common theme where a business points to the actions of one of their contractors/service providers and uses that as an excuse for not delivering their product/service, as if it gets them off the hook for failing to deliver XXXX that was paid for. My contract is with the car/television maker, not their contractors. If there is no limited term specified in the original contract then it is for the "life" of the product.

Putting up a fixed term contract for the supply of these smart services is in many ways an improvement, as you say lifetime is non-specific and open to interpretation, at least 3 years is 3 years and you know what you are getting up front.

[Someone]

certainly sir,please select the "play my own music" option in our online store or ask our dealer  to include it in your custom additions package,its available  on a monthly or annual subscription.

I will use whatever means I can whether it be an analogue input if there is one or through an FM transmitter to use the in car speakers.

Some makers have been known to lock off analog inputs, and require "factory [software] tools" to turn them on, this has been going on for a very very long time (at least 25 years).

[Dave3]

After TomTom redefined "lifetime" and stopped updating maps for lot of GPS models, TomTom lost a lot of customers.

Did they?

Yes, they did. The internet forums went ballistic.

With TomTom maps the difficulty is mainly that they are huge - and simply won't fit into the older models without a lot of work.

That is what TomTom was selling. It is easy for TomTom to continue providing maps for older devices. For example, the Canada/US/Mexico map licenses could be updated to just provide US maps (which is what some people hacked).

Of course, if my car stopped "being supported" after 8 years, that would be a different story.  But consumer gear? I guess we shouldn't expect that "lifetime" means the "lifetime" of the owner 

I respect your opinion but I'm not defending TomTom for making our GPS obsolete; it still works fine and we use it every day. The TomTom would be perfect if management didn't turn against its customers. We use a lot of old gear at home to save money and the environment.

[Dave3]

In short, if you want to hack and work on your car, don't buy a BMW. I am surprised that they aren't welding the hood shut yet.

I bet BMW and other automakers are working on this.

If the automakers could migrate all future service into the original sales, then they capture lifetime service revenues that once belonged to third-party mechanics (and the dealers too). As the dealer service rates and OEM parts are expensive, the margins are excellent. This could multiply BMW's profit per car sold.

Now your $75k BMW becomes a $100K+ lifetime sale. The $75k still is relatively low commodity car margins. But that new $25K is hefty service and OEM parts margins.

[tszaboo]

I found something which I think is also very stupid:
https://www.bmw.co.uk/en/shop/ls/dp/Base_OE_Voucher_gb

Online Entertainment Voucher

A range of music you can’t refuse  : with BMW Online Entertainment you have unlimited access to more than 30 million music tracks.
£ 179.00 (incl. VAT} 12 months

DESCRIPTION
A free choice of music wherever you are: BMW Online Entertainment offers you direct and unlimited access to more than 30 million music tracks. You can use the BMW Music flat-rate voucher to open an account for unlimited music access with a BMW Music partner (currently Deezer or Napster).

The advantages for you:
Access to more than 30 million songs by flat-rate account with a BMW music partner (at the moment Deezer or Napster)
Music downloads are possible in the vehicle onto the built-in hard disc
2 Music account is transferrable to other devices
Works in 10 EU countries with no additional costs

The offer includes:
Music flat-rate voucher (valid after activation, redeemable within 3 years)
Mobile data flat-rate
Attention: To start using the service, you have to redeem the BMW Music flat-rate voucher in the vehicle first. This can be done by registering at one of the BMW music partners in your vehicle at Multimedia > Online Entertainment. May only be available with additional optional equipment. Availability of BMW ConnectedDrive Services are dependent on vehicle specification, optional equipment and production date. Please consult your local BMW Retailer for more information if required.

I wonder who'd want that?

I think I will bring my own tracks in which I have either collected or paid for already.

2 Now if the music is downloaded and copied into a common DRM FREE format to be played on any device or media player then that might add an incentive but it still seems to me like a lot of money to me. On the other hand it is not essential and more like an addon unless they stop their radio playing stuff until you purchase a package.

Looks like Spotify with less songs for twice the price. Because it's a car.
Would you like to pay 25000 EUR extra, so that you have a chair that is 7cm taller than other people's chair? Because I have a deal for you for this new Crossover that does just that.

[janoc]

BMW has literally everything serialized, you replace any sort of * small module - which commonly dies and then you are left without locks, lights, etc) - and without the special BMW software with the "secret sauce" codes you can't make it work.

* That sounds very stupid to me.
No locks? Doesn't that leave the car at risk?

More like you can't unlock it because the electric locks don't work. You can still open the car by sticking the key in the door lock, i.e. manually.

So they are not offering this "special BMW software" with the appropriate codes for the car to the customers at the time when they are buying the car?

  Which planet are you from? The entire point of this is to lock out independent mechanics and producers of cheaper replacement components. In the name of safety, of course. The only way to officially get the tools and software is to become a BMW authorized repair shop - i.e. only the dealerships have this.

It is not only BMW doing it but they are among the most egregious examples.

With the serializations, I take it they don't trust the owners. Well isn't it time that the car owners stop trusting car manufacturers that do this sort of thing.

The owners in most cases don't care and aren't even aware that something like that exists. Most people take the car to the mechanic for the annual checkup and oil change and also whenever something breaks. It screws primarily independent mechanics and anyone who would want to manufacture aftermarket parts. There is a reason why BMW parts are so crazy expensive - and no, it is not because of "German quality".

Yes, you did read that correctly. A number of features have been added to BMW’s UK-based ConnectedDrive Store including heated front seats (£15 per month), heated steering wheel (£10 per month), automatic high beams (£10 per month) and the ‘Driving Assistant Plus’ active cruise control (£35 per month).

I think you have missed the title of this entire thread ...

[janoc]

Of course, if my car stopped "being supported" after 8 years, that would be a different story.  But consumer gear? I guess we shouldn't expect that "lifetime" means the "lifetime" of the owner 

I respect your opinion but I'm not defending TomTom for making our GPS obsolete; it still works fine and we use it every day. The TomTom would be perfect if management didn't turn against its customers. We use a lot of old gear at home to save money and the environment.

It is not about defending anything, I am only saying that after 8+ years it is sorta reasonable to say that the device had its time and they can stop support it. It still works and still can be used fine, it is not like they are bricking it (unlike some other vendors).

However expecting someone to support consumer hardware (i.e. not a car or something where expected lifetime is much longer) with updates for a decade or more, especially when it is getting pretty expensive to do so and the market share of the device is minimal today is probably not reasonable.

If they stopped the support after 3-4 years as is unfortunately very common with some smartphone manufacturers (and the phones cost easily 2-3x as much than the GPS did), I would complain. But after 8+ I would give them a pass. Still annoying but I guess reasonable.

The best thing they could do would be to open the update format on the obsolete devices so that people could e.g. upload their own map updates from OpenStreetMap or something. However, that's unlikely to happen because it would put them out of business - the map formats are likely similar/same even for the newest devices.