Checkout FREE supermarkets

[MrMobodies]

I wonder why they call them "checkout free". It's not checkout free when the buyer still has to use their phone via some "app" as a checkout before they can leave with the goods.

Oops forgot the url:
https://retailtechinnovationhub.com/home/2022/10/14/tesco-under-fire-for-trigo-powered-london-checkout-free-store

Tesco under fire for Trigo powered London checkout free store
Last year, Tesco launched its first high street checkout free store.
Named GetGo and powered by Trigo tech, this can be found in High Holborn, on the edge of the City of London.

Kevin Tindall, Managing Director at Tesco Convenience : , said at the time of the launch: "We are constantly looking for ways to improve  the shopping experience and our latest innovation offers a seamless checkout for customers on the go, helping them to save a bit more time.”

"This is currently just a one store trial, but we're looking forward  * to seeing how our customers respond."

** Not everyone’s a fan  , unfortunately.

Jonathan Rowson, an author, publisher and Director at Perspectiva, this week took to Twitter to vent spleen. “Distressing experience at Tesco just now,” he said.

“10.50pm near Chancery Lane tube after a work event I receive a text to get a sandwich for my son’s packed lunch tomorrow. I see a store, think I’m in luck, but I can only *enter* the store if I download the app & sign up to club card.” He added: “Pragmatism had me download the app, but I said no to the club card. I can’t proceed to buy the sandwich and get home. There’s a barrier. I ask for help. The staff member takes my phone and changes my option to “accept club card” I say no thanks. He says then you can’t get in.”

Rowson told the employee that he wanted to buy a sandwich and nowhere else was open. The employee apologised and stated this it was now store policy and ***what customers wanted. : bullshit :  “Soon, all stores will be like this,” he commented. “People protest, but then they come back a few days later.” Rowson replied: “****Sorry but the price is too high. And people only come back because they don’t feel they have a choice. If there was a shop open next door I’d go there.”  He then deleted the app and vowed not to shop at Tesco again. He continued: “Never have I felt the pinch of surveillance society more acutely.”

“My shock at the compulsory data cost for entry to a supermarket to buy a sandwich made me think of Brett Scott (the author of Cloud Money, a book covering cash, cards, crypto and the war for our wallets) and his argument for cash. Use it to lose it, they say. And tonight I really feel it.” “I think I have what I need at home to make my son a tasty sandwich. But what I felt at that store tonight was thoroughly dystopian. It was a taste of the future in the present, and I didn’t like it at all.”

Rowson concluded: “Gosh, and now I see an email with my club card number has come through. When the store assistant changed my decision not to accept a club card on my phone I didn’t manage to stop him in time. Tesco, can you please cancel this card and let me know it’s been cancelled? Thank you.”

At the time of writing, Rowson’s series of tweets had been retweeted, quote tweeted and liked thousands of times.
Tesco did not respond to our request for comment.

I think it should be called "App only shopping" or in this case "Tesco Clubcard only shop" where you are using your mobile phone via "app" as a checkout.

*If that happened to me with no or poor signage, I tell them this, "here is what is going to happen, I am going to walk out that door and YOU! are going to put back everything in my basket/trolley back on the shelves for wasting my time as that's all your are good for." I have cash and card and willing to pay so don't be stupid.

**Should everybody be a "fan" to look forward to only being able to pay with only mode of payment at these stores. Nothing to do with being a "fan" it is about accepting other modes of payment where payment has failed and is not taken in consideration.

*** With the protests I had been reading last year about the boycotting of self service checkouts in Tesco's and had the cheek to say "that's what customers want". Sounds out of touch to me.

**** How can they compare that to limiting modes of payment, because the prices are high that makes it okay to restrict modes of payment to this pathetic method that requires a phone and a whole lot of things.

They opened a store, restricted to one method of payment and called it a fancy name.
So how can it be called "Tesco convenient" when they accept only one mode of payment.
* Do they think the public are stupid? when they leave out the bit on the phone and "app" or rename it "Checkout free" where you checkout the items.

I have no interest in club or loyalty cards which I sometimes get asked at stores.

Kevin Tindall, Managing Director at Tesco Convenience : , said at the time of the launch: "We are constantly looking for ways to improve  the shopping experience and our latest innovation "  offers a seamless checkout for customers on the go, helping them to save a bit more time.”

Latest Innovation = Limit payment to only one payment method whereas before you had many choices of payment even on many the self service checkouts without the dependency of a phone, signal and internet and app. to work.

Saving a bit of time? Utter bullshit!
Expecting customers to have and use a phone, app, sim contract, working internet, create an account, download an app, sign in to that, insert bank account details and dependent on a whole load of things that can change with when it maybe no longer supported just to pay for something inside a shop.

Self service checkout: scan item in, place on basket and pay by cash or swipe card finished.

Don't you think that is stupid to call it "checkout free" when you are still using your phone as a checkout and calling it convenient as the only way to pay?

How can it hurt their business by also accepting card payments?

It reminds me of the "In app" parking using your phone as a parking machine via some stupid "app" of theirs.

What do you think?

[themadhippy]

I tell them this, "here is what is going to happen, I am going to walk out that door and YOU! are going to put back everything in my basket/trolley back on the shelves for wasting my time"

you saw me in the m+s( i think) store on new street station a year or 2 back as that's exactly what i did when i discovered the store was totally self service

[ataradov]

I personally prefer self checkout and use it any time possible and favor stores where it is available.

I'm not going to  mess with the phone though, I don't even carry the phone most of the time. But if is just a machine that lets me scan thing, place then into bags and pay by card, I'm using it. In most cases I'm way faster than a cahier and I can scan stuff in an order that makes sense for bagging.

I know some countries/stores would harass people and ask for a check after self check out. This does not happen here, and if it starts, I'll have to switch places I shop. You either trust me to do may scanning or don't present an option.

[SiliconWizard]

Beyond the specific case of checkout in stores, having to use one's phone for buying pretty much anything is going to become the new norm.

[TimFox]

At my local supermarket (USA), I will use self-scan checkout for small orders.
The store allows payment by card or cash, although sometimes the machines are out of cash and a human being has to help me.
I would advocate for a Federal statute that bans mandatory payment through a smartphone or similar, but allows it for those who prefer it.
As a holdover from the pandemic, many places here will not accept cash (filthy lucre), which I do not like, but have to deal with.

[shapirus]

many places here will not accept cash

is it legal at all?

[TimFox]

many places here will not accept cash

is it legal at all?

Unfortunately, yes.
The phrase "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" is not taken literally anymore.
Unfortunately, the proposed legislation Illinois HB5255 has not made it through the State legislature.

[sleemanj]

many places here will not accept cash

is it legal at all?

Will depend on your country, but here in NZ cash is mandatory to be accepted only for repayment of smaller debts where it is reasonable to do so.  There is nothing to prevent businesses saying "we don't accept cash" provided you have not incurred a debt (which you haven't unless you've already taken the products away).  If cash was mandatorily accepted for everything then unmanned fuel stations would be a problem!

[Monkeh]

many places here will not accept cash

is it legal at all?

Unfortunately, yes.
The phrase "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" is not taken literally anymore.
Unfortunately, the proposed legislation Illinois HB5255 has not made it through the State legislature.

Purchasing items from a shop is not a debt. Until such time as they agree to accept payment you owe nothing.

[HwAoRrDk]

I think supermarkets are pushing too far with all this technology. And I think a large proportion of their customers just don't want it.

My local Morrisons store has an equal amount of space given to the scan-as-you-shop checkouts as to the regular self-checkouts. I've noticed that it doesn't seem to matter what time of day or day of the week I'm there, I never see many people using the former. Usually just 1 or 2 people. And at the same time there will be a queue for the regular self-checkout.

I also remember a few years ago when Sainsburys first introduced their scan-as-you-shop, with the handheld scanners you would take and carry round the store. The store near my office were trying to promote it, and had a couple of staff standing in the entrance atrium trying to encourage customers to use it. Everyone was ignoring them, and I even saw a few people dismiss the offer after having it explained to them.

I'm very against all this cashless business. Sure, it's more convenient for those that are able to take advantage. But if you're not able to, then it's just outright disenfranchisement.

Take OP's example, and think of the dependency chain requirements for mobile-only cashless purchasing versus cash:

Cash:
- money in your pocket
-- pockets or other place to hold money

Cashless:
- a smartphone
-- must be charged
-- must be compatible
-- must be functional (i.e. not broken)
-- ability to afford a smartphone at all
- mobile Internet service
-- must have signal
-- must have adequate data allowance
-- ability to afford service
-- a means of paying for service
--- requires a bank account
---- requires a fixed abode
---- requires being a class of person a bank will provide service to
--- can sometimes require good credit history
- willingness to tolerate whatever privacy implications are put upon you

So, basically one dependency versus a list as long as your arm. All to buy a sandwich.

[james_s]

I personally prefer self checkout and use it any time possible and favor stores where it is available.

I'm not going to  mess with the phone though, I don't even carry the phone most of the time. But if is just a machine that lets me scan thing, place then into bags and pay by card, I'm using it. In most cases I'm way faster than a cahier and I can scan stuff in an order that makes sense for bagging.

I know some countries/stores would harass people and ask for a check after self check out. This does not happen here, and if it starts, I'll have to switch places I shop. You either trust me to do may scanning or don't present an option.

Yeah me too, self checkout is great, I love it, I've never cared for making smalltalk with clerks or standing around in line while some other customer blabs with the clerk making the whole transaction take longer than it needs to.

I don't like app based stuff though. I have a smartphone and it's a useful tool, but I don't want to be totally reliant on it. It's not uncommon for the battery to go low at a time when I need it, and some apps can drain the battery flat in a shockingly short amount of time.

[vk6zgo]

I personally prefer self checkout and use it any time possible and favor stores where it is available.

I'm not going to  mess with the phone though, I don't even carry the phone most of the time. But if is just a machine that lets me scan thing, place then into bags and pay by card, I'm using it. In most cases I'm way faster than a cahier and I can scan stuff in an order that makes sense for bagging.

I know some countries/stores would harass people and ask for a check after self check out. This does not happen here, and if it starts, I'll have to switch places I shop. You either trust me to do may scanning or don't present an option.

Yeah me too, self checkout is great, I love it, I've never cared for making smalltalk with clerks or standing around in line while some other customer blabs with the clerk making the whole transaction take longer than it needs to.

I don't like app based stuff though. I have a smartphone and it's a useful tool, but I don't want to be totally reliant on it. It's not uncommon for the battery to go low at a time when I need it, and some apps can drain the battery flat in a shockingly short amount of time.

I find self checkout is good for one or two largish items, but as soon as you get into multiple odd shaped things like loose fruit, it is easier to go through a staffed checkout.

Bunnings (a large hardware chain) installed some self checkout points, & they work OK if you are buying several large, prepackaged items, but if it is something like several bolts, a couple of screwdrivers, or some loose twist drills, it becomes tedious.

Strangely, they are more often than not closed off with a chain, & you have to use the staffed checkout.
At least the Bunnings ones don't get all shirty if I put a shopping bag on the wrong side of the device, or not use one at all & just place the scanned items back in the trolley, unlike the ones at some other shops.

You can checkout using your phone here, but it is just an extra option, & you show the scanner a "virtual card" on the phone.
I'm not sure how this works, as with an ordinary contactless card, it doesn't rely upon optical recognition.
Maybe the "virtual" card transmits the data using Bluetooth or something.

It is a dumb idea, though, as what happens if somebody rings you just as you start to go through the checkout?

I guess you will have to stand aside, answer, then go back to your App, whereas, with a card, you can answer, say "Please wait a second", checkout, & leave the store carrying on with your phone conversation.

In Oz, if you do have an "App" tied up with a particular shop, in many cases you can buy what you want online, then just pick it up.
Obviously, you can do the same without the App, just by going to their website.

[abeyer]

I wonder why they call them "checkout free". It's not checkout free when the buyer still has to use their phone via some "app" as a checkout before they can leave with the goods.

I think the confusion (which seems to be shared by the rest of the discussion) is that there is some checkout involved on the phone when there isn't.

This looks like either a license or clone of the same thing Amazon did in their stores... there is no "checkout" because the whole store is blanketed in cameras that just watch what you do and invoice it all and send you the bill to your existing account after you leave. The app is purely used to identify you so they know who to bill and has nothing to do with the actual checkout or payment. Some of the amazon ones have biometric scanners now too, so you don't even need the phone, you scan your palm or iris and it knows who you are and just bills it all to your amazon account.

[MrMobodies]

the whole store is blanketed in cameras that just watch what you do and invoice it all and send you the bill to your existing account after you leave. The app is purely used to identify you so they know who to bill and has nothing to do with the actual checkout or payment.

No thanks.
The effort to go to to identify someone over a sandwich.

I think I just want to look around in peace, take stuff, pay and a receipt not be watched constantly what I pick up and see it on my phone. I find that intrusive.

Joke: Soon they will start charging folks through their phones through "apps" or fines for walking on private land/footpaths possibly brought from the councils at some point by private management firms "maintaining the land" for the purposes of what they do like with the parking and the ANPR cameras.

I should be able to go in a shop, get the things I want and pay for it either by cash or card and whatever other means. Not be expected to mess about with a phone, it dependencies and be spied on at every angle just to determine what I pick up.

I remembered at the last Sainsbury's store local to me before I moved some year ago they had these camera's facing the self checkout tills. Not at the top watching what I do but my face. SonNow when I see them and hidden in the casing of the screen I put my hood down.

[Ed.Kloonk]

No thanks.
The effort to go to to identify someone over a sandwich.

{Ding!}
"How was your sandwich experience today?"

[bdunham7]

From a local website, names removed and minor edits.

We recently went shopping at Amazon Fresh, located off Foothill and White.  We had never used the cashier free checkout point, wherein you simply swipe your card and you’re out.  We bought a single bag of groceries (mostly fruits and cheese).  My partner did not like the whole process.  She wanted a receipt.  I informed her that we would receive the receipt in an email.  My partner remained on edge about the whole thing, but I reassured her, “No worries.”

Then the receipt arrived via email and I noted that we were being charged over $600.00 for a single bag of groceries.  HOLY GUACAMOLE!  I checked the itemized list only to discover that we were charged over $300.00 for alcohol, $100.00 in baby formula and an additional $100.00 for stuff we wouldn’t even consider putting into our mouths, let alone swallowing. And I was like, WTH (only it sounded a lot worse than that).

A long story well-shortened:  If you use your Amazon Prime card to gain access to the store and someone pushes in behind you (without inserting their own card and before the gate closes behind you and the device resets), you have become monetarily responsible for a “guest”.  The same holds trued, if you go to check out by inserting your card and someone pushes their cart through the opened gates before the gates close and the technology device resets. 

I am not absolutely certain, because I remained relatively stupefied by how this whole check out process worked, but there was a man and a woman pushing their filled cart right behind us as we were exiting the store. The  woman even gave us the “stink eye” because my partner stopped in front of the cashier to let me know (again), “This does not feel right”, thus preventing them from a quick exit from the store. I received a similar look from the two of them (parked a short distance away) when they were loading their loot in their vehicle.  And I thought, “WTH! And why are they looking at me like that?” Once again, I admit to my complete and utter ignorance with regards to Amazon Fresh’s checkout process, and I am NOT claiming these two people were guilty of taking full advantage of my being technologically challenged and running up a bill on my account. . . But then, why did she give me the stink eye (twice) within such a short increment of time, because I delayed their exit and then dared to take a glimpse of what they were loading into their vehicle?  (Maybe her second look was not a stink eye, but her letting me know, “You are so stupid that it hurts.” (She may be right.)

Bottomline:  If you should decide to use your Amazon Prime card to enter and/or exit the Amazon Fresh store (which is really an amazing well-stocked store) make sure that no one pushes through the gates until they have closed and reset.  This applies to you going in or coming out.  Whomever it was that pushed through behind us (whether this couple or not) they knew exactly what they were doing. My heavens! They stocked their cart chalk full of expensive alcohol ($80.00 a bottle Champagne, Scotch and Tequila) that, although we could afford (if we actually drank those substances), would never (EVER) consider buying.

In Final note: Amazon Fresh reimbursed us for the thievery of this shopping spree that ended up on our account.  Amazon is good in that way.  But DO BE CAREFUL when entering or existing the store, as thieves appear to know how to thieve.

[MrMobodies]

From a local website, names removed and minor edits.

We recently went shopping at Amazon Fresh, located off Foothill and White.  We had never used the cashier free checkout point, wherein you simply swipe your card and you’re out  .

That's got to be a lot better than wholey depending on a phone/app and a whole load of things to work.

If you use your Amazon Prime card to gain access to the store and someone pushes in behind you (without inserting their own card and before the gate closes behind you and the device resets), you have become monetarily responsible for a “guest”.

So someone took advantage of the shorted sighted glitch in that it does not take in account those that may push past.

Maybe they could put a second barrier, so one in front and one behind with ample space to accommodate a partner and any baggage, and then press a button to allow them in so it scans them to prevent others gatecrashing onto their ID.

[abeyer]

No thanks.
The effort to go to to identify someone over a sandwich.

Sure, fair enough if you don't want to use it, but you can hardly blame them for wanting to know who you are if the whole point of the system is to send you your bill after you've already left. They can't very well ask you who you are then.

I think I just want to look around in peace, take stuff, pay

That's great when it's an option. If you're in a downtown lunch rush on your break and the alternative is fighting through crowds to find what you want, standing in line while people fumble around trying to pay and chit-chat or argue with the cashiers, finally getting your food, and then realizing half your break is over already and you haven't even eaten...

I should be able to go in a shop, get the things I want and pay for it either by cash or card and whatever other means. Not be expected to mess about with a phone, it dependencies and be spied on at every angle just to determine what I pick up.

Then don't go to a shop where the whole reason for being is to not work that way? It's not like these places are common... I don't think they're even cost effective yet, given that they still have people in the loop, so certainly not in danger of becoming more so yet. And it isn't even possible to accidentally wander in as you need to provide your identity before you enter.

SonNow when I see them and hidden in the casing of the screen I put my hood down.

I hear they make these rolls of really thin aluminum... you can line your hood with it and it keeps Them from seeing you. 

[Rick Law]

With the constant minimum wage increase, business has to find ways to deal with the increase -- cut labor.  The unfortunate side effect is the lost of job experiences for high school and college new graduates.  if the employee's productivity per hour is only worth the value of a hamburger, when wage of such employee is push to $100 per hour, the price of a hamburger will be risen to that exact $100 within a short time.  So all these artificial manipulation of minimum wage is really damaging to the economy.

Personally, I would prefer to deal with a human being over dealing with "AI" automated machines.  Besides, using cash is a great way to cut over-spending.  Counting the green paper makes one more aware of the value of money.

[coppice]

My local Morrisons store has an equal amount of space given to the scan-as-you-shop checkouts as to the regular self-checkouts. I've noticed that it doesn't seem to matter what time of day or day of the week I'm there, I never see many people using the former. Usually just 1 or 2 people. And at the same time there will be a queue for the regular self-checkout.

At our local Tesco stores almost nobody uses the operator checkouts. Quite a lot use the self checkouts, and quite a lot use the scan as you shop checkouts. You rarely see a queue at the scan as you shop checkouts, as most people pass through there so quickly. Its only when you have a problem item, or they do one of their random checks that you hang around. Are you sure you are not just seeing that differential in speed?

[HobGoblyn]

My local Morrisons store has an equal amount of space given to the scan-as-you-shop checkouts as to the regular self-checkouts. I've noticed that it doesn't seem to matter what time of day or day of the week I'm there, I never see many people using the former. Usually just 1 or 2 people. And at the same time there will be a queue for the regular self-checkout.

Probably depends on where you shop, our local Morrisons has doubled the size of the self checkout area putting in larger machines so that a large trolley can easily cope.

In the day dime there’s always a small queue at the checkouts, but there’s also a small queue for self checkouts.

Go in at say 6pm, often find 2 or 3 checkouts with no customers and the checkout staff looking bored, yet at the same time at least half the self checkouts are still being used.

I prefer the self checkouts, things get scanned in the order I want and in the way I want, for example when I put a sliced loaf in my trolley, I hunt around until I find one that isn’t squashed in the middle and when I scan it, I pick it up from the end. Most of the time the checkout staff grab it in the middle squashing it.

[Bud]

How do your seniors (70+) cope up with that innovation?

[MrMobodies]

Then don't go to a shop where the whole reason for being is to not work that way? It's not like these places are common... I don't think they're even cost effective yet, given that they still have people in the loop, so certainly not in danger of becoming more so yet. And it isn't even possible to accidentally wander in as you need to provide your identity before you enter.

Rowson told the employee that he wanted to buy a sandwich and nowhere else was open. The employee apologised and stated this it was now store policy and what customers wanted. “Soon, all stores will be like this,” he commented.

Well that employee seemed pretty adamant/optimistically certain for it to happen.

I hope it doesn't come to that where make it so a phone is the only way to pay in every shop and such stores are labelled up clearly... "App only" and "no cash/card" etc.

[Halcyon]

I'm very against all this cashless business. Sure, it's more convenient for those that are able to take advantage. But if you're not able to, then it's just outright disenfranchisement.

Take OP's example, and think of the dependency chain requirements for mobile-only cashless purchasing versus cash:

Cash:
- money in your pocket
-- pockets or other place to hold money

Cashless:
- a smartphone
-- must be charged
-- must be compatible
-- must be functional (i.e. not broken)
-- ability to afford a smartphone at all
- mobile Internet service
-- must have signal
-- must have adequate data allowance
-- ability to afford service
-- a means of paying for service
--- requires a bank account
---- requires a fixed abode
---- requires being a class of person a bank will provide service to
--- can sometimes require good credit history
- willingness to tolerate whatever privacy implications are put upon you

So, basically one dependency versus a list as long as your arm. All to buy a sandwich.

That's a really interesting perspective. I've mentioned it before on other threads, but Australia is largely cashless and it just works. It has for quite a while now.

Some quick stats from the Reserve Bank of Australia:

• In June 2022, 94% of retail stores accepted cash as a payment method (down from 99% in February 2020)
• In 2021/2022 financial year, most payments were electronic, of which 75% of the electronic payments were made by credit/debit card.
• In 2019, the use of cash for all consumer payments amounted to 27%. These days, it's likely to be far less (but I can't find reliable stats).
• The use of cheques is almost zero

Personally, even in the area I live in (which is rural/regional), I'm seeing increasing numbers of small "mum and dad" retailers refusing cash payments. It's just not worth the hassle. Speaking to my local coffee shop, they've said that it actually costs them more in time and effort to bank cash, than it is to just refuse it entirely. Before this, over 90% of their payments were by card/phone anyway, even for small amounts such as a single coffee. The money is in their account and available the same day (if not, the following business day). There is also no risk of being robbed for spare change.

In fact, some bank branches have stopped handling cash entirely.

I can't even remember the last time I even carried cash in my wallet, it was probably going on 15-20 years now and in the last 2 years, I've stopped carrying a wallet entirely, since it really serves no purpose for me.

In Australia, anyone can have a bank account, even the homeless person on the street (and they usually have a smartphone too). Even my 92+ year old neighbour next door uses card for almost everything. Credit history only becomes an issue if you're seeking credit not for simply having a savings account (which costs nothing to hold).

[coppice]

How do your seniors (70+) cope up with that innovation?

Get with the times. Most of the people who developed the technology these checkouts use are now over 70.

[SiliconWizard]

Big Brother wants to know your every move and every purchase. Get with the times, it's only for your own good. Guaranteed!

[TimFox]

Unless you have something to hide...

[SiliconWizard]

Unless you have something to hide...

Jawohl, Klaus!
"Si vous n'afez rien à cacher, il ne faut pas afoir peur!"

[vk6zgo]

What I find incredibly annoying is the substitution of a horrible, clunky platform like a smartphone for a fast, efficient device like a card, which only requires one device to work correctly---the EFTPOS terminal.
You can still have "scan as you go" using a card.

Using a phone, assumes that the user has installed, & is using the "App" correctly, that the phone hasn't failed, the 'phone company" hasn't picked that particular time to have an outage (or Zeus hasn't chucked a lightning bolt at the nearest cell tower).

OK, if it is a general Phone outage, the EFTPOS machine won't have contact, either, but it might be a different company.

If you really want to shop using a "device", sign up for an account with a shop, (or sign up with several shops).
Using a real computer or a Smartphone if you absolutely have to, you can look at what they have on their website, order it, then have it delivered or pick it up.

The downside here is that every now & then, they will stuff things up & either delete stuff from your order, not supply something & still bill you, or substitute something completely different.
I have several bottles of Mineral Turpentine, (enough for 20 years at my current rate of usage) supplied instead of Methylated Spirit. (Oh, well, it is in a bottle, has a paper label saying something, it must be the same ).

On the other hand, many years ago, I worked as a Storeman, getting out Orders, & it is perilously easy to stuff up if you are "under the hammer", as you usually are.

[Someone]

OK, if it is a general Phone outage, the EFTPOS machine won't have contact, either, but it might be a different company.

most EFTPOS terminals will process offline payments when comms are down. Even ATMs have periods when they will authorise transactions without checking first:
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/atm-freeforall-bank-took-calculated-risk-20110302-1bei5.html
then the banks catch up with the account holders later:
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/commbanks-heavyhanded-tactics-after-atm-glitch-police-called-in-20110415-1dgpg.html

[vk6zgo]

OK, if it is a general Phone outage, the EFTPOS machine won't have contact, either, but it might be a different company.

most EFTPOS terminals will process offline payments when comms are down. Even ATMs have periods when they will authorise transactions without checking first:
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/atm-freeforall-bank-took-calculated-risk-20110302-1bei5.html
then the banks catch up with the account holders later:
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/commbanks-heavyhanded-tactics-after-atm-glitch-police-called-in-20110415-1dgpg.html

I have definitely been to places where the EFTPOS connection has been lost, & they have been unable to process card transactions.
The buffers in the machines must eventually fill up in a busy shop.

I've also been offered & accepted the use of an old-style manual card reader.
Place the card on the device, the operator pulls the slider across with a "Snork! Shork!" sound, you sign the top sheet, get the other as a receipt, & you are on your way.

[Marco]

When will we get universal rfid tagging and batch scanners already BTW? Scanning is annoying and fraud sensitive (sure Faraday bags would work for rfid tagged product theft, but that's more involved than just stuffing your pockets).

[TimFox]

OK, if it is a general Phone outage, the EFTPOS machine won't have contact, either, but it might be a different company.

most EFTPOS terminals will process offline payments when comms are down. Even ATMs have periods when they will authorise transactions without checking first:
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/atm-freeforall-bank-took-calculated-risk-20110302-1bei5.html
then the banks catch up with the account holders later:
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/commbanks-heavyhanded-tactics-after-atm-glitch-police-called-in-20110415-1dgpg.html

I have definitely been to places where the EFTPOS connection has been lost, & they have been unable to process card transactions.
The buffers in the machines must eventually fill up in a busy shop.

I've also been offered & accepted the use of an old-style manual card reader.
Place the card on the device, the operator pulls the slider across with a "Snork! Shork!" sound, you sign the top sheet, get the other as a receipt, & you are on your way.

My recent credit cards haven't had the raised numbers necessary for snorking.

[vk6zgo]

I've also been offered & accepted the use of an old-style manual card reader.
Place the card on the device, the operator pulls the slider across with a "Snork! Shork!" sound, you sign the top sheet, get the other as a receipt, & you are on your way.

My recent credit cards haven't had the raised numbers necessary for snorking.

It appears snorking is still regarded as a viable alternative in Australia, as my latest card is still fully snorkable.

[Someone]

I've also been offered & accepted the use of an old-style manual card reader.
Place the card on the device, the operator pulls the slider across with a "Snork! Shork!" sound, you sign the top sheet, get the other as a receipt, & you are on your way.

My recent credit cards haven't had the raised numbers necessary for snorking.

It appears snorking is still regarded as a viable alternative in Australia, as my latest card is still fully snorkable.

You keep making big statements. EFTPOS doesn't work when not connected to telecommunications... walked back to ok so it does work but not infinitely.
Carbon imprint viable alternative. When the EFTPOS machines are doing that in offline mode (signature required), and most stores do not have an imprinter....   also my credit cards do not have embossed printing to support that. Or to use your style of silly argument... but the imprinter has limited available paper!

[TERRA Operative]

Unless you have something to hide...

https://thenextweb.com/news/read-this-if-youve-got-nothing-to-hide

[Halcyon]

What I find incredibly annoying is the substitution of a horrible, clunky platform like a smartphone for a fast, efficient device like a card, which only requires one device to work correctly---the EFTPOS terminal.
You can still have "scan as you go" using a card.

Using a phone, assumes that the user has installed, & is using the "App" correctly, that the phone hasn't failed, the 'phone company" hasn't picked that particular time to have an outage (or Zeus hasn't chucked a lightning bolt at the nearest cell tower).

Proprietary banking "apps" are highly varied in terms of their quality and functionality. Nevertheless, you don't need to rely on your banks own app to use your phone as a payment method. I personally just use the built-in Google Wallet function. It stores the credentials/tokens in the device's own secure enclave, as opposed to whatever the hell the third-party apps do.

Also (and I stand to be corrected on this as I haven't personally tested it), the Google wallet can still be use to make payments irrespective of whether the device has a cellular or data connection, same way as a traditional credit/debit card does not have connectivity to the internet.

You keep making big statements. EFTPOS doesn't work when not connected to telecommunications... walked back to ok so it does work but not infinitely.
Carbon imprint viable alternative. When the EFTPOS machines are doing that in offline mode (signature required), and most stores do not have an imprinter....   also my credit cards do not have embossed printing to support that. Or to use your style of silly argument... but the imprinter has limited available paper!

EFTPOS can most certainly be used offline (with limitations). It's called "Electronic Fallback Mode". I've personally experienced this myself. Those manual imprinters are irrelevant these days, particularly as many big banks (including my own) no longer imprint raised card details on the plastic anymore. In fact, most (if not all) merchants to my knowledge have phased-out the use of these card imprinters completely in the last decade, Visa and Mastercard being two of them.

In this fallback mode, payments can still be accepted, however the card needs to be inserted into the terminal (this is where relying on only a mobile phone for payment could fail you, as when in EFM, contactless methods can't be used). The terminal will queue these payments offline until connectivity is restored and then processed in the usual manner. A manual receipt will be printed and will need to be signed by the cardholder as manual confirmation (even if a PIN is provided).

When a terminal is in EFM mode, banks will usually impose a limit on the transaction value. That varies between banks and the type of account.

There is a whole document, which includes details and polices around EFM operation and limits here: https://www.eftposaustralia.com.au/sites/default/files/2021-03/eftpos-TOSR-v2_11.pdf

[Circlotron]

Unless you have something to hide...

Like buying some Bud Lite.

[vk6zgo]

I've also been offered & accepted the use of an old-style manual card reader.
Place the card on the device, the operator pulls the slider across with a "Snork! Shork!" sound, you sign the top sheet, get the other as a receipt, & you are on your way.

My recent credit cards haven't had the raised numbers necessary for snorking.

It appears snorking is still regarded as a viable alternative in Australia, as my latest card is still fully snorkable.

You keep making big statements. EFTPOS doesn't work when not connected to telecommunications... walked back to ok so it does work but not infinitely.
Carbon imprint viable alternative. When the EFTPOS machines are doing that in offline mode (signature required), and most stores do not have an imprinter....   also my credit cards do not have embossed printing to support that. Or to use your style of silly argument... but the imprinter has limited available paper!

Why the aggro?
It was just a comment.

I have been caught out on occasion with EFTPOS machines not being able to "phone home", but, yes, it is uncommon, & more likely to happen in rural or remote places, such as roadhouses in Northwest WA.
In a city, it is most unlikely.

I never said that "most stores" have an imprinter, just that, to my surprise, I had been offered the use of one---again, it was in the NW & the VISA card replacement I got at the end of 2022 still has embossed printing.

My original comment was supporting the use of cards, but I included the comment about loss of connection to forestall a "yes, but" from supporters of the use of mobile phones for such purposes.

[Someone]

I've also been offered & accepted the use of an old-style manual card reader.
Place the card on the device, the operator pulls the slider across with a "Snork! Shork!" sound, you sign the top sheet, get the other as a receipt, & you are on your way.

My recent credit cards haven't had the raised numbers necessary for snorking.

It appears snorking is still regarded as a viable alternative in Australia, as my latest card is still fully snorkable.

You keep making big statements. EFTPOS doesn't work when not connected to telecommunications... walked back to ok so it does work but not infinitely.
Carbon imprint viable alternative. When the EFTPOS machines are doing that in offline mode (signature required), and most stores do not have an imprinter....   also my credit cards do not have embossed printing to support that. Or to use your style of silly argument... but the imprinter has limited available paper!

Why the aggro?
It was just a comment.

I have been caught out on occasion with EFTPOS machines not being able to "phone home", but, yes, it is uncommon, & more likely to happen in rural or remote places, such as roadhouses in Northwest WA.
In a city, it is most unlikely.

I never said that "most stores" have an imprinter, just that, to my surprise, I had been offered the use of one---again, it was in the NW & the VISA card replacement I got at the end of 2022 still has embossed printing.

My original comment was supporting the use of cards, but I included the comment about loss of connection to forestall a "yes, but" from supporters of the use of mobile phones for such purposes.

That a very small number of place have an imprinter is not equivalent to it being "a viable alternative in Australia". Why put up such sensational posts when they are clearly wrong?

Businesses are seeking profit and generally find any saving they can, I have not seen an imprinter used in the last 20 years or longer but have signed for offline authorisation at eftpos terminals (more so in regional areas).

[PlainName]

My local Morrisons store has an equal amount of space given to the scan-as-you-shop checkouts as to the regular self-checkouts. I've noticed that it doesn't seem to matter what time of day or day of the week I'm there, I never see many people using the former. Usually just 1 or 2 people. And at the same time there will be a queue for the regular self-checkout.

Could that be because scan-as-you-shop is quicker to check out? You've already done the scanning so all you do at the checkout is pay, whereas the self-checkout needs everything scanning as well as paying (and bag packing, which has already been done on SAYS). Thus you would see fewer people at a time on SAYS even though the throughput may be the same.

[RJSV]

   Subject of personal privacy comes up a lot lately, talking with friends and relatives.

   California DMV (Dept of motor vehicles) requires an on-line application, to renew documents, and BARELY avoids appearance that it's required.  How's that? You say.  Well, anyone not 'on-line' to fill out the forms, is herded over to a bank of PC / Laptops, to perform the application entries.   What looks even worse; the DMV office has volunteer 'guides' to hurry you along, sometimes THEY EVEN REACH OVER YOU, AND PRESS THE laptop keys...for you.  (If you are too slow).
That's unbelievable !!

[RJSV]

   Oh and forgot to mention:
   If you can't manage to pass the DMV written exam, you get shuttled to a required ON-LINE driver's training course.
Yes yes, I know the warnings:  'everyone' must eventually go to the on-line required gig.

Right now, though, that's a California issue, ripe for a lawyer's feast.

[RJSV]

  Forgot to mention;  ON-LINE with Video Conferencing software, such as Zoom, is required, to pass DMV drivers re-testing.

[SiliconWizard]

That's uh, progress for you!

[Kim Christensen]

Went to the store today. Sign on the door said, "Cash only, debit/credit system down". Saw later on the news: "payment processing company Moneris says it has resolved an outage that appeared to affect debit and credit transactions across the country."
That's the problem with systems like this. It's way too easy for the whole thing to fall apart. This is not the first time I've experienced this.

[coppice]

Went to the store today. Sign on the door said, "Cash only, debit/credit system down". Saw later on the news: "payment processing company Moneris says it has resolved an outage that appeared to affect debit and credit transactions across the country."
That's the problem with systems like this. It's way too easy for the whole thing to fall apart. This is not the first time I've experienced this.

Someone needs to teach their technical staff what SPOF stands for.

[PlainName]

Strip Person Of Funds

[Rick Law]

Went to the store today. Sign on the door said, "Cash only, debit/credit system down". Saw later on the news: "payment processing company Moneris says it has resolved an outage that appeared to affect debit and credit transactions across the country."
That's the problem with systems like this. It's way too easy for the whole thing to fall apart. This is not the first time I've experienced this.

Every CFO in every corporation are constantly under pressure to reduce cost.  Some do it wisely, some don't.  From this "over integration" to "out-sourcing" to "excess automation".  These kinds of "cost cutting" have many examples that "yeah, it cut cost by x%" and this shinny object (x% lower) took the attention away from "yeah, failure of that could kill your whole company."

Decade ago, I read a case study about how a major cell phone manufacturer got out of making phones after it lost most of it's customers  because "just in time inventory management" failed for a duration (few months) due to a supply issue further down the chain.  It was great until snag hits_[1].

When a failure have such high impact, the risks should be managed.  But managing and mitigating that risk will take a good portion of the "savings" away.  So, one often just ignored them as "low probably" and marched on.  I suppose, some do so thinking: "Well before reality strikes, I would have found a better job because of the great savings I have demonstrated here."  I said some, but my gut feel is "most".

There will be failures, but people wont learn or would quickly forgot the lesson as they repeat others' mistakes: forgetting tomorrow to chase the few extra bucks today.

I suppose I ranted about this because: Twice I left a job I very much like after "reading the tea leaf" that this thing senior manage insisted on doing isn't going to work long term.  I was right In both cases, but I had often wish I didn't have to jump off the ship(s) that I liked so much.

Final thought: I think all of us non-self-employed should keep our heads up at all times watching for danger that our senior management may put in our path.

Footnotes:
[1]  Since I forgot the name of that phone manufacturer, I did a google search.  I didn't find it but found other interesting horror stories of "JIT inventory" some of you may find them interesting:
_{https://www.business2community.com/product-management/6-times-horrific-inventory-control-almost-killed-companies-01659644}

[coppice]

Decade ago, I read a case study about how a major cell phone manufacturer got out of making phones after it lost most of it's customers  because "just in time inventory management" failed for a duration (few months) due to a supply issue further down the chain.  It was great until snag hits_[1].

If their supply problems persisted for months do you really think it was JIT that killed them? People with a negative attitude to JIT tend to treat it like its equivalent to penny pinching. Its quite the opposite. It means taking a really realistic attitude to the supply chain, and tuning for its potential strengths and weaknesses.

[SiliconWizard]

Note that, just like constant growth, constant cost reduction will reach limits, it's not infinitely sustainable. So it's just one of those short-term goals that ends up backfiring.

[TimFox]

Decade ago, I read a case study about how a major cell phone manufacturer got out of making phones after it lost most of it's customers  because "just in time inventory management" failed for a duration (few months) due to a supply issue further down the chain.  It was great until snag hits_[1].

If their supply problems persisted for months do you really think it was JIT that killed them? People with a negative attitude to JIT tend to treat it like its equivalent to penny pinching. Its quite the opposite. It means taking a really realistic attitude to the supply chain, and tuning for its potential strengths and weaknesses.

Industrial engineering can do a good job of optimizing the process (including assembly line parameters, inventory management, supply chain improvement, etc.) by looking at the process in appropriate detail.
It gets tricky to include risks to the supply chain, etc., since low-probability events (such as an inconvenient war) can have a huge effect on the process.
Some misuse of JIT was merely to shift all of the risk and process control to subcontractors (such as auto parts manufacturers located next to the automobile assembly plant), who then had to deal with the problems.

Toyota is often cited as a good example of JIT:  here is an interesting study (from Harvard Business Review) of what they actually did successfully during the disruptions caused by the pandemic.
https://hbr.org/2022/11/what-really-makes-toyotas-production-system-resilient

Excerpt from that article:
"Toyota takes a strategic approach to inventory planning. Operationally this stands on three legs: strategically sized inventories in the right locations to act as a buffer to meet changing demands, safety stock that factors in the risk of disruption, and a nuanced view of lead times. It has been pointed out that the company learned a great deal from the Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami of 2011, after which it identified parts vulnerable to disruption and, as a result, were candidates to be stockpiled. How Toyota factors lead times into its inventory planning is the key."

[Rick Law]

Decade ago, I read a case study about how a major cell phone manufacturer got out of making phones after it lost most of it's customers  because "just in time inventory management" failed for a duration (few months) due to a supply issue further down the chain.  It was great until snag hits_[1].

If their supply problems persisted for months do you really think it was JIT that killed them? People with a negative attitude to JIT tend to treat it like its equivalent to penny pinching. Its quite the opposite. It means taking a really realistic attitude to the supply chain, and tuning for its potential strengths and weaknesses.

JIT was part of its failure, but certainly not all of it.  The other significant problem was purchase consolidation, consolidation is a "desirable" for JIT but not a requirement.  Consolidating to one supplier certainly make you a bigger customer and thus more negotiation power, but when the lone supplier choke, you choke also.

I think all of us here know, finding new supplier is not always an easy task, so I don't need to get into that issue.

JIT (in ideal form) gave the system no slack - the parts arrive when they are needed on the line.  Literally, the parts come off the truck on the dock and go directly to the production line.  Great, you don't need a warehouse; but problem will start immediately when thing(s) doesn't arrive at the moment it is needed.  The hero who pushed that will have a duration to brag about zero inventory carrying cost -- until production line stopped for lack of parts.

Besides the risk of non-arrival, to use JIT, ERP (Enterprise Resource Planning) likely is the most needed companion.  While ERP software is a great tool when it works, one problem with ERP is that it casts your processes into concrete.  Minor change in the process could be huge headaches.  For example: We can't get this single piece in the box packaging, let's switch to three bags in the box.  Such change could result in major rework of different parts of the ERP system (not software code change but configuration change, new forms, new supplier records to add, etc., etc.).   We all know that software modifications could be done over lunch and then it could take weeks to flush out one tiny piece alone.

So one can see the web of problems...  No, JIT alone didn't cause it, it just made the issues more immediate and made the issues worst.


... (joke of the moment)...
As he lay on the gurney being rolled into the operation theater,  he heard the doctor saying to the nurse "don't worry about us having no liquid stitch, the truck with the liquid stitch resupply is scheduled to arrive at the hospital dock 10 minutes before we have to close his chest up"...

[Halcyon]

many places here will not accept cash

is it legal at all?

Also legal in Australia with more and more stores going cashless. I can see why though. The vast majority of the population here no longer use cash for either small or large payments and the negatives of handling cash outweigh the positives.

By 2022, the use of cash for payments was 13%. If you look at the total value of cash payments, it amounted to 8%. These figures will likely to continue to fall substantially every year.

I honestly can't remember the last time I used an ATM... at a guess, it's probably going on 10-15 years ago.

https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2023/jun/cash-use-and-attitudes-in-australia.html

[coppice]

many places here will not accept cash

is it legal at all?

Also legal in Australia with more and more stores going cashless. I can see why though. The vast majority of the population here no longer use cash for either small or large payments and the negatives of handling cash outweigh the positives.

By 2022, the use of cash for payments was 13%. If you look at the total value of cash payments, it amounted to 8%. These figures will likely to continue to fall substantially every year.

I honestly can't remember the last time I used an ATM... at a guess, it's probably going on 10-15 years ago.

https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2023/jun/cash-use-and-attitudes-in-australia.html

Be careful about that 13% seeming small. In most things I've seen quoting small numbers they are actually talking about value and not quantity. In terms of actual transaction volume it may be much higher, since nobody executes big transactions in cash any more. Even if its the actual percentage of transactions, a substantial chunk of them are the small but important transactions that just won't go away.

In the UK we are still unable to use cards for payment everywhere. In the last year I have been forced to use cash multiple times in car parks with either no electronic payment option, or one which was down. At least 2 of those were run by the local council, so not some fly by night parking spots. Its not just tax dodgers who force us to use cash. Go deep in the countryside and there are cellular black spots all over the place, where you can only pay by cash. I bought ice creams from a van on a slope towards the beach recently. The guy said cash only. I looked at my phone. No signal. Maybe he strategically parked in a spot where there was no communication, but he was in a nice spot to catch customers from the flow to and from the beach. So, he had picked a very valid spot, and it had no signal.

There are ways to squeeze out those small cash transactions in awkward places. Hong Kong has one. The HK Octopus card started out as a transport card with stored value in the 1990s. It has developed into a card used for all sorts of minor transactions, buying from its stored value. Because its stored, no communication is needed until the stored value needs recharging. We have nothing like this in the UK.

[Infraviolet]

Piers Corbyn, a well known "crank" who has his heart in the right place but some rather excessively eccentric ideas about the causes of modern socity's present maladies has a pleasing solution for checkoutless shops:

https://twitter.com/Resist_05/status/1685940313435824128

As the cash of the exact value has changed hands when he leaves, he has the products, he owes a "debt" for the products he has taken, and by putting down the cash the debt is payed. I can't guess the specific legalties, but it looks at a glance like successful use of the principle of legal tender, that anyone owed a debt must accept cash as a means of repaying it. I'd certainly be one for doing the same myself if encountering cashless shops.

The good news I hear is that the UK is seeing a resurgence of cash usage, compared to the last 5 years or so, people finally wising up to the need for cash, and the value of using it to avoid losing it. That is to say, they might not want to use cash for every transaction, but make a point to use it regularly to maintain it as an alternative to all the more crash-prone payment methods. And people recognise with cash they can take with them the maximum amount they are willing to spend, rather than get a card driven surprise that all their money has vanished after a shopping trip.

It's just so annoying that so much can only be bought online thesedays, physical shops decline in both range of goods stocked, quantity stocked of whatever you went to buy (specific size, type of item you need is alway the one first to sell out), and in many cases prices are worse than online too. In some ways the main problem for cash is that high streets are declining.

Its a shame someone couldn't find a way to develop a type of cash (value tied to the exchanged item itself (toekn based), not held as a record of accounts and transactions... anonymous and thereby non-discriminatory... not dependent on corporate infrastructure... impossible to surveill and therefore also impossible to financially censor people... stable, excepting the harms of inflation caused by government money printing, against the values of goods people want to buy...) which could be used for remote transactions the way cards and other record based payment methods can. Not sure if it is necessarily possible (can a token based system work without records when a token by virtue of having to be information not physical matter can be trivially copied?) but it would be a good idea.

[themadhippy]

we already have a token based system,its called cash.

[PlainName]

I can't guess the specific legalties, but it looks at a glance like successful use of the principle of legal tender, that anyone owed a debt must accept cash as a means of repaying it.

It is easy enough to find out, and of course he is spouting complete bollocks:

You might have heard someone in a shop say: “But it’s legal tender!”. Most people think it means the shop has to accept the payment form. But that’s not the case. 

A shop owner can choose what payment they accept. If you want to pay for a pack of gum with a £50 note, it’s perfectly legal to turn you down. Likewise for all other banknotes, it’s a matter of discretion. If your local corner shop decided to only accept payments in Pokémon cards that would be within their right too. But they’d probably lose customers.

Legal tender has a narrow technical meaning which has no use in everyday life. It means that if you offer to fully pay off a debt to someone in legal tender, they can’t sue you for failing to repay.

He has clearly latched onto the debt thing, but there is only a debt if the shop sells him the goods, and they are specifically NOT selling him anything unless he has the means to pay without cash. So he is creating a fake debt by nicking the stuff.

[Infraviolet]

"we already have a token based system,its called cash"
Yes, oops I must have forgotten to finish the paragraph.

A token based system which can be used for remote transactions in near real-time. I can't pay cash when buying something from a website, I'm saying it would be nice if a kind of "cash" could be developed which could be used like this, all the present advantages of cash, but also the ability to be used for remote transactions.

[Halcyon]

many places here will not accept cash

is it legal at all?

Also legal in Australia with more and more stores going cashless. I can see why though. The vast majority of the population here no longer use cash for either small or large payments and the negatives of handling cash outweigh the positives.

By 2022, the use of cash for payments was 13%. If you look at the total value of cash payments, it amounted to 8%. These figures will likely to continue to fall substantially every year.

I honestly can't remember the last time I used an ATM... at a guess, it's probably going on 10-15 years ago.

https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2023/jun/cash-use-and-attitudes-in-australia.html

Be careful about that 13% seeming small. In most things I've seen quoting small numbers they are actually talking about value and not quantity. In terms of actual transaction volume it may be much higher, since nobody executes big transactions in cash any more. Even if its the actual percentage of transactions, a substantial chunk of them are the small but important transactions that just won't go away.

This is why I also included the value figure. Cash represented 8% of the total value of all transactions types in 2022. Between 2019 and 2022, the value of all cash transactions dropped by about a third. Today, it's less than 50% of what it was 6-7 years ago, despite cost of living, wages and everything else going up.

[coppice]

Between 2019 and 2022, the value of all cash transactions dropped by about a third. Today, it's less than 50% of what it was 6-7 years ago, despite cost of living, wages and everything else going up.

Its dropping everywhere, but when you talk about eliminating cash you need a solution for the residual transactions that don't work but won't go away. Its not impossible. As I said, places like Hong Kong have had a working solution for nearly 30 years. The problem is nothing like this is being introduced in most countries, and it can't be fully deployed overnight. Is that incompetence, or do powerful interests not really like cash going completely away?

[PlainName]

Hong Kong might be a special case since it's basically standalone London. There is the Oyster card here, but the problem is that covers just London, and there isn't a similar card in the rest of the country. Even if there were, the UK isn't compressed enough - like Hong Kong - that everyone uses public transport, so only a small proportion of the population would have such a card. Thus there is no chance that something like the Hong Kong card could get traction, never mind feature creep into debit card territory.

[coppice]

Hong Kong might be a special case since it's basically standalone London. There is the Oyster card here, but the problem is that covers just London, and there isn't a similar card in the rest of the country. Even if there were, the UK isn't compressed enough - like Hong Kong - that everyone uses public transport, so only a small proportion of the population would have such a card. Thus there is no chance that something like the Hong Kong card could get traction, never mind feature creep into debit card territory.

I thought the London Oyster card was only for transport. The HK Octopus card started out as a transport card, but is now used for a wide variety of small purchases. A magazine. A drink. MacDonalds. Pretty much any small purchase. There is no reason a similar card could not work in the UK. It doesn't have to be used for transport at all.

[tszaboo]

This is a logical conclusion to the rampant theft that is happening in the US. I see the videos, people walk in the shop, take a dozen designer sunglasses and walk out. Police doesn't get involved, because theft is somehow now racist. And then shops close. If you need to present your loyalty card, bank card, underskin chip, birth certificate or whatever to enter. And there is a gate entry system this is prevented. Good solution, efficient, and only a bit like living in a lawless society.

[PlainName]

Hong Kong might be a special case since it's basically standalone London. There is the Oyster card here, but the problem is that covers just London, and there isn't a similar card in the rest of the country. Even if there were, the UK isn't compressed enough - like Hong Kong - that everyone uses public transport, so only a small proportion of the population would have such a card. Thus there is no chance that something like the Hong Kong card could get traction, never mind feature creep into debit card territory.

I thought the London Oyster card was only for transport. The HK Octopus card started out as a transport card, but is now used for a wide variety of small purchases. A magazine. A drink. MacDonalds. Pretty much any small purchase. There is no reason a similar card could not work in the UK. It doesn't have to be used for transport at all.

Yes, Oyster is for transport, just like Octopus was originally. Octopus does more because it slid in features gradually to a captive market, but you think that making Oyster (or non-existent equivalent) skip all that and go straight to full fat will just work. I don't think it will, if only because of chicken/egg situation.

[PlainName]

If you need to present your loyalty card, bank card, underskin chip, birth certificate or whatever to enter.

Of course, no-one will fake those, and all the shop assistants will be forgery-detecting experts. Plus, no-one minds the queues.

[coppice]

Hong Kong might be a special case since it's basically standalone London. There is the Oyster card here, but the problem is that covers just London, and there isn't a similar card in the rest of the country. Even if there were, the UK isn't compressed enough - like Hong Kong - that everyone uses public transport, so only a small proportion of the population would have such a card. Thus there is no chance that something like the Hong Kong card could get traction, never mind feature creep into debit card territory.

I thought the London Oyster card was only for transport. The HK Octopus card started out as a transport card, but is now used for a wide variety of small purchases. A magazine. A drink. MacDonalds. Pretty much any small purchase. There is no reason a similar card could not work in the UK. It doesn't have to be used for transport at all.

Yes, Oyster is for transport, just like Octopus was originally. Octopus does more because it slid in features gradually to a captive market, but you think that making Oyster (or non-existent equivalent) skip all that and go straight to full fat will just work. I don't think it will, if only because of chicken/egg situation.

That was my point. Few countries have done the groundwork to have a system in place for all those residual uses for cash that online solution can't replace, because 100% connectivity is not feasible. In HK we actually got more functionality for Octopus cards pretty much as soon as their initial use for transport stabilised. However, it took years for the culture to change such that the first thing we reached for to make a small purchase was our Octopus card. In turn that meant that a lot of places took years to get an Octopus terminal to be able to accept such payments. As things progressed options became available, like linking an Octopus car to a credit or debit card. Now, the Octopus card could recharge automatically from the credit card when communication was available, and run down the stored credit when the Octopus card was isolated. It takes time for people to begin to trust solutions like that.

[tszaboo]

If you need to present your loyalty card, bank card, underskin chip, birth certificate or whatever to enter.

Of course, no-one will fake those, and all the shop assistants will be forgery-detecting experts. Plus, no-one minds the queues.

Nobody fakes contactless payments. And now you have a queue going out of the shop.
If it wasn't clear, I'm against this 1984 level system that they are building, especially just to avoid persecuting criminals (Yes, theft is a crime).

[themadhippy]

This is a logical conclusion to the rampant theft that is happening in the US. I see the videos, people walk in the shop, take a dozen designer sunglasses and walk out. Police doesn't get involved,

sounds like the uk,although that has little to do with race,but more to do  with can't  being arsed lack of manpower.

[AlbertL]

In many US cities, we already have a version of "checkout free" - you just load up a cart and roll it out the door!

[SiliconWizard]

If it wasn't clear, I'm against this 1984 level system that they are building, especially just to avoid persecuting criminals (Yes, theft is a crime).

I am as well, but let me warn you, we're going to have to fight very hard for that not to happen. I guess you've already figured it.

There's an "interesting" point here, which is indeed entirely 1984-esque. Say a new system makes theft virtually impossible. So the new system would provide no means of handling crime, as crime wouldn't be supposed to happen (except probably the thoughtcrime.) What would be the consequence in terms of actual crime rate?

[Marco]

sounds like the uk,although that has little to do with race,but more to do  with can't  being arsed lack of manpower.

It's not about race, it's about the crumbling of ethical memes for various reasons.

There is no reason to reach for 1984, there is a real world example where morality is imposed on a forcefully integrated diverse society ... Singapore. When people can't be memed into behaving ethically with out-groups, you need the states iron fist. Man power is but a small part of that, also the willingness to be uncompromising towards all religions and races.

[Marco]

Say a new system makes theft virtually impossible.

You'd either need omni-prescent identification (at the legal level, not something the shops can do themselves) or you'd need completely walled off entrances and exits, where groups of people who feel they belong together exit through a gated sluice. No exit until you drop your unpaid items into a return slot (that's why you don't want to exit with someone you don't trust). It would take a fair amount of space, not impossible for larger supermarkets, but smaller shops can't really do this. There are limits to technological solutions.