Checkout FREE supermarkets

[SiliconWizard]

Big Brother wants to know your every move and every purchase. Get with the times, it's only for your own good. Guaranteed!

[TimFox]

Unless you have something to hide...

[SiliconWizard]

Unless you have something to hide...

Jawohl, Klaus!
"Si vous n'afez rien à cacher, il ne faut pas afoir peur!"

[vk6zgo]

What I find incredibly annoying is the substitution of a horrible, clunky platform like a smartphone for a fast, efficient device like a card, which only requires one device to work correctly---the EFTPOS terminal.
You can still have "scan as you go" using a card.

Using a phone, assumes that the user has installed, & is using the "App" correctly, that the phone hasn't failed, the 'phone company" hasn't picked that particular time to have an outage (or Zeus hasn't chucked a lightning bolt at the nearest cell tower).

OK, if it is a general Phone outage, the EFTPOS machine won't have contact, either, but it might be a different company.

If you really want to shop using a "device", sign up for an account with a shop, (or sign up with several shops).
Using a real computer or a Smartphone if you absolutely have to, you can look at what they have on their website, order it, then have it delivered or pick it up.

The downside here is that every now & then, they will stuff things up & either delete stuff from your order, not supply something & still bill you, or substitute something completely different.
I have several bottles of Mineral Turpentine, (enough for 20 years at my current rate of usage) supplied instead of Methylated Spirit. (Oh, well, it is in a bottle, has a paper label saying something, it must be the same ).

On the other hand, many years ago, I worked as a Storeman, getting out Orders, & it is perilously easy to stuff up if you are "under the hammer", as you usually are.

[Someone]

OK, if it is a general Phone outage, the EFTPOS machine won't have contact, either, but it might be a different company.

most EFTPOS terminals will process offline payments when comms are down. Even ATMs have periods when they will authorise transactions without checking first:
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/atm-freeforall-bank-took-calculated-risk-20110302-1bei5.html
then the banks catch up with the account holders later:
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/commbanks-heavyhanded-tactics-after-atm-glitch-police-called-in-20110415-1dgpg.html

[vk6zgo]

OK, if it is a general Phone outage, the EFTPOS machine won't have contact, either, but it might be a different company.

most EFTPOS terminals will process offline payments when comms are down. Even ATMs have periods when they will authorise transactions without checking first:
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/atm-freeforall-bank-took-calculated-risk-20110302-1bei5.html
then the banks catch up with the account holders later:
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/commbanks-heavyhanded-tactics-after-atm-glitch-police-called-in-20110415-1dgpg.html

I have definitely been to places where the EFTPOS connection has been lost, & they have been unable to process card transactions.
The buffers in the machines must eventually fill up in a busy shop.

I've also been offered & accepted the use of an old-style manual card reader.
Place the card on the device, the operator pulls the slider across with a "Snork! Shork!" sound, you sign the top sheet, get the other as a receipt, & you are on your way.

[Marco]

When will we get universal rfid tagging and batch scanners already BTW? Scanning is annoying and fraud sensitive (sure Faraday bags would work for rfid tagged product theft, but that's more involved than just stuffing your pockets).

[TimFox]

OK, if it is a general Phone outage, the EFTPOS machine won't have contact, either, but it might be a different company.

most EFTPOS terminals will process offline payments when comms are down. Even ATMs have periods when they will authorise transactions without checking first:
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/atm-freeforall-bank-took-calculated-risk-20110302-1bei5.html
then the banks catch up with the account holders later:
https://www.smh.com.au/technology/commbanks-heavyhanded-tactics-after-atm-glitch-police-called-in-20110415-1dgpg.html

I have definitely been to places where the EFTPOS connection has been lost, & they have been unable to process card transactions.
The buffers in the machines must eventually fill up in a busy shop.

I've also been offered & accepted the use of an old-style manual card reader.
Place the card on the device, the operator pulls the slider across with a "Snork! Shork!" sound, you sign the top sheet, get the other as a receipt, & you are on your way.

My recent credit cards haven't had the raised numbers necessary for snorking.

[vk6zgo]

I've also been offered & accepted the use of an old-style manual card reader.
Place the card on the device, the operator pulls the slider across with a "Snork! Shork!" sound, you sign the top sheet, get the other as a receipt, & you are on your way.

My recent credit cards haven't had the raised numbers necessary for snorking.

It appears snorking is still regarded as a viable alternative in Australia, as my latest card is still fully snorkable.

[Someone]

I've also been offered & accepted the use of an old-style manual card reader.
Place the card on the device, the operator pulls the slider across with a "Snork! Shork!" sound, you sign the top sheet, get the other as a receipt, & you are on your way.

My recent credit cards haven't had the raised numbers necessary for snorking.

It appears snorking is still regarded as a viable alternative in Australia, as my latest card is still fully snorkable.

You keep making big statements. EFTPOS doesn't work when not connected to telecommunications... walked back to ok so it does work but not infinitely.
Carbon imprint viable alternative. When the EFTPOS machines are doing that in offline mode (signature required), and most stores do not have an imprinter....   also my credit cards do not have embossed printing to support that. Or to use your style of silly argument... but the imprinter has limited available paper!

[TERRA Operative]

Unless you have something to hide...

https://thenextweb.com/news/read-this-if-youve-got-nothing-to-hide

[Halcyon]

What I find incredibly annoying is the substitution of a horrible, clunky platform like a smartphone for a fast, efficient device like a card, which only requires one device to work correctly---the EFTPOS terminal.
You can still have "scan as you go" using a card.

Using a phone, assumes that the user has installed, & is using the "App" correctly, that the phone hasn't failed, the 'phone company" hasn't picked that particular time to have an outage (or Zeus hasn't chucked a lightning bolt at the nearest cell tower).

Proprietary banking "apps" are highly varied in terms of their quality and functionality. Nevertheless, you don't need to rely on your banks own app to use your phone as a payment method. I personally just use the built-in Google Wallet function. It stores the credentials/tokens in the device's own secure enclave, as opposed to whatever the hell the third-party apps do.

Also (and I stand to be corrected on this as I haven't personally tested it), the Google wallet can still be use to make payments irrespective of whether the device has a cellular or data connection, same way as a traditional credit/debit card does not have connectivity to the internet.

You keep making big statements. EFTPOS doesn't work when not connected to telecommunications... walked back to ok so it does work but not infinitely.
Carbon imprint viable alternative. When the EFTPOS machines are doing that in offline mode (signature required), and most stores do not have an imprinter....   also my credit cards do not have embossed printing to support that. Or to use your style of silly argument... but the imprinter has limited available paper!

EFTPOS can most certainly be used offline (with limitations). It's called "Electronic Fallback Mode". I've personally experienced this myself. Those manual imprinters are irrelevant these days, particularly as many big banks (including my own) no longer imprint raised card details on the plastic anymore. In fact, most (if not all) merchants to my knowledge have phased-out the use of these card imprinters completely in the last decade, Visa and Mastercard being two of them.

In this fallback mode, payments can still be accepted, however the card needs to be inserted into the terminal (this is where relying on only a mobile phone for payment could fail you, as when in EFM, contactless methods can't be used). The terminal will queue these payments offline until connectivity is restored and then processed in the usual manner. A manual receipt will be printed and will need to be signed by the cardholder as manual confirmation (even if a PIN is provided).

When a terminal is in EFM mode, banks will usually impose a limit on the transaction value. That varies between banks and the type of account.

There is a whole document, which includes details and polices around EFM operation and limits here: https://www.eftposaustralia.com.au/sites/default/files/2021-03/eftpos-TOSR-v2_11.pdf

[Circlotron]

Unless you have something to hide...

Like buying some Bud Lite.

[vk6zgo]

I've also been offered & accepted the use of an old-style manual card reader.
Place the card on the device, the operator pulls the slider across with a "Snork! Shork!" sound, you sign the top sheet, get the other as a receipt, & you are on your way.

My recent credit cards haven't had the raised numbers necessary for snorking.

It appears snorking is still regarded as a viable alternative in Australia, as my latest card is still fully snorkable.

You keep making big statements. EFTPOS doesn't work when not connected to telecommunications... walked back to ok so it does work but not infinitely.
Carbon imprint viable alternative. When the EFTPOS machines are doing that in offline mode (signature required), and most stores do not have an imprinter....   also my credit cards do not have embossed printing to support that. Or to use your style of silly argument... but the imprinter has limited available paper!

Why the aggro?
It was just a comment.

I have been caught out on occasion with EFTPOS machines not being able to "phone home", but, yes, it is uncommon, & more likely to happen in rural or remote places, such as roadhouses in Northwest WA.
In a city, it is most unlikely.

I never said that "most stores" have an imprinter, just that, to my surprise, I had been offered the use of one---again, it was in the NW & the VISA card replacement I got at the end of 2022 still has embossed printing.

My original comment was supporting the use of cards, but I included the comment about loss of connection to forestall a "yes, but" from supporters of the use of mobile phones for such purposes.

[Someone]

I've also been offered & accepted the use of an old-style manual card reader.
Place the card on the device, the operator pulls the slider across with a "Snork! Shork!" sound, you sign the top sheet, get the other as a receipt, & you are on your way.

My recent credit cards haven't had the raised numbers necessary for snorking.

It appears snorking is still regarded as a viable alternative in Australia, as my latest card is still fully snorkable.

You keep making big statements. EFTPOS doesn't work when not connected to telecommunications... walked back to ok so it does work but not infinitely.
Carbon imprint viable alternative. When the EFTPOS machines are doing that in offline mode (signature required), and most stores do not have an imprinter....   also my credit cards do not have embossed printing to support that. Or to use your style of silly argument... but the imprinter has limited available paper!

Why the aggro?
It was just a comment.

I have been caught out on occasion with EFTPOS machines not being able to "phone home", but, yes, it is uncommon, & more likely to happen in rural or remote places, such as roadhouses in Northwest WA.
In a city, it is most unlikely.

I never said that "most stores" have an imprinter, just that, to my surprise, I had been offered the use of one---again, it was in the NW & the VISA card replacement I got at the end of 2022 still has embossed printing.

My original comment was supporting the use of cards, but I included the comment about loss of connection to forestall a "yes, but" from supporters of the use of mobile phones for such purposes.

That a very small number of place have an imprinter is not equivalent to it being "a viable alternative in Australia". Why put up such sensational posts when they are clearly wrong?

Businesses are seeking profit and generally find any saving they can, I have not seen an imprinter used in the last 20 years or longer but have signed for offline authorisation at eftpos terminals (more so in regional areas).

[PlainName]

My local Morrisons store has an equal amount of space given to the scan-as-you-shop checkouts as to the regular self-checkouts. I've noticed that it doesn't seem to matter what time of day or day of the week I'm there, I never see many people using the former. Usually just 1 or 2 people. And at the same time there will be a queue for the regular self-checkout.

Could that be because scan-as-you-shop is quicker to check out? You've already done the scanning so all you do at the checkout is pay, whereas the self-checkout needs everything scanning as well as paying (and bag packing, which has already been done on SAYS). Thus you would see fewer people at a time on SAYS even though the throughput may be the same.

[RJSV]

   Subject of personal privacy comes up a lot lately, talking with friends and relatives.

   California DMV (Dept of motor vehicles) requires an on-line application, to renew documents, and BARELY avoids appearance that it's required.  How's that? You say.  Well, anyone not 'on-line' to fill out the forms, is herded over to a bank of PC / Laptops, to perform the application entries.   What looks even worse; the DMV office has volunteer 'guides' to hurry you along, sometimes THEY EVEN REACH OVER YOU, AND PRESS THE laptop keys...for you.  (If you are too slow).
That's unbelievable !!

[RJSV]

   Oh and forgot to mention:
   If you can't manage to pass the DMV written exam, you get shuttled to a required ON-LINE driver's training course.
Yes yes, I know the warnings:  'everyone' must eventually go to the on-line required gig.

Right now, though, that's a California issue, ripe for a lawyer's feast.

[RJSV]

  Forgot to mention;  ON-LINE with Video Conferencing software, such as Zoom, is required, to pass DMV drivers re-testing.

[SiliconWizard]

That's uh, progress for you!

[Kim Christensen]

Went to the store today. Sign on the door said, "Cash only, debit/credit system down". Saw later on the news: "payment processing company Moneris says it has resolved an outage that appeared to affect debit and credit transactions across the country."
That's the problem with systems like this. It's way too easy for the whole thing to fall apart. This is not the first time I've experienced this.

[coppice]

Went to the store today. Sign on the door said, "Cash only, debit/credit system down". Saw later on the news: "payment processing company Moneris says it has resolved an outage that appeared to affect debit and credit transactions across the country."
That's the problem with systems like this. It's way too easy for the whole thing to fall apart. This is not the first time I've experienced this.

Someone needs to teach their technical staff what SPOF stands for.

[PlainName]

Strip Person Of Funds

[Rick Law]

Went to the store today. Sign on the door said, "Cash only, debit/credit system down". Saw later on the news: "payment processing company Moneris says it has resolved an outage that appeared to affect debit and credit transactions across the country."
That's the problem with systems like this. It's way too easy for the whole thing to fall apart. This is not the first time I've experienced this.

Every CFO in every corporation are constantly under pressure to reduce cost.  Some do it wisely, some don't.  From this "over integration" to "out-sourcing" to "excess automation".  These kinds of "cost cutting" have many examples that "yeah, it cut cost by x%" and this shinny object (x% lower) took the attention away from "yeah, failure of that could kill your whole company."

Decade ago, I read a case study about how a major cell phone manufacturer got out of making phones after it lost most of it's customers  because "just in time inventory management" failed for a duration (few months) due to a supply issue further down the chain.  It was great until snag hits_[1].

When a failure have such high impact, the risks should be managed.  But managing and mitigating that risk will take a good portion of the "savings" away.  So, one often just ignored them as "low probably" and marched on.  I suppose, some do so thinking: "Well before reality strikes, I would have found a better job because of the great savings I have demonstrated here."  I said some, but my gut feel is "most".

There will be failures, but people wont learn or would quickly forgot the lesson as they repeat others' mistakes: forgetting tomorrow to chase the few extra bucks today.

I suppose I ranted about this because: Twice I left a job I very much like after "reading the tea leaf" that this thing senior manage insisted on doing isn't going to work long term.  I was right In both cases, but I had often wish I didn't have to jump off the ship(s) that I liked so much.

Final thought: I think all of us non-self-employed should keep our heads up at all times watching for danger that our senior management may put in our path.

Footnotes:
[1]  Since I forgot the name of that phone manufacturer, I did a google search.  I didn't find it but found other interesting horror stories of "JIT inventory" some of you may find them interesting:
_{https://www.business2community.com/product-management/6-times-horrific-inventory-control-almost-killed-companies-01659644}

[coppice]

Decade ago, I read a case study about how a major cell phone manufacturer got out of making phones after it lost most of it's customers  because "just in time inventory management" failed for a duration (few months) due to a supply issue further down the chain.  It was great until snag hits_[1].

If their supply problems persisted for months do you really think it was JIT that killed them? People with a negative attitude to JIT tend to treat it like its equivalent to penny pinching. Its quite the opposite. It means taking a really realistic attitude to the supply chain, and tuning for its potential strengths and weaknesses.