Author Topic: digital electricity  (Read 23030 times)

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Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #200 on: June 12, 2018, 02:42:46 am »
Actually that is what makes our technology incredible, although the speed of light has nothing to do with it.  :palm:
incredible
ɪnˈkrɛdɪb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: incredible

    1.
    impossible to believe.
    "an almost incredible tale of triumph and tragedy"
    synonyms:   unbelievable, beyond belief, hard to believe, scarcely credible, unconvincing, far-fetched, strained, laboured, implausible, improbable, highly unlikely, not in the least likely, questionable, dubious, doubtful, inconceivable, unthinkable, unimaginable, impossible, astonishing, astounding, breathtaking, staggering, absurd, preposterous, phenomenal, extraordinary
 

Online Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #201 on: June 12, 2018, 02:56:08 am »
I have been resigned to the fact that I will likely be taken out of context a great deal. Plus I have some word salads that are gems.

Can you explain in quite simple terms how if you look at 2 Amps "at the micro second level" it becomes 2 micro Amps, because I can't!

This highlights something that has been bugging me ever since I first read this:


 :wtf: Injecting and extracting microamps every microsecond.  :wtf:

The WTF's just highlight the arrogance...

If you need to balance a 3 phase system and the current required is just 10A, your system needs to handle anything from -14.14A to +14.14A instantaneous current.

The quantity "current" has no time dimension, neither does the quantity "power" - so any references to current and/or power that supposedly address the large values (that we might normally expect) by extremely short time intervals is complete and utter bullshit.

It is not a reflection on the intelligence of anybody here - it is ignoring a fundamental of the PHYSICS involved.

So, if this is not a complete misdirection, someone really needs to get their terminology sorted out - because what has been happening on this thread has been destructive in the promotion of the product.  You can get away with all sorts of flim flam with the public and even dazzle investors - but when you front up to the engineering bench, you better know how to talk their language.

Remember - when engineers fail, products can fail, jobs can be lost, careers destroyed ... and people can be maimed or killed.  When they are being pedantic, there's usually a very good reason for it.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #202 on: June 12, 2018, 04:48:12 am »
Saying that dirty power does not affect computers and related equipment is like saying dirty oil does not affect my engine performance. It is just a bald faced ignorant statement to make.


Bullshit. Oil breaks down over time and the filter becomes filled with physical particles of carbon and wear materials from the engine. A properly designed power supply will filter out any noise that would be typically found on a power line, electrical filters don't become clogged and electricity doesn't wear out over time. If you claim otherwise I'd like to see something to back this up. Take two identical off the shelf computer PSUs, connect one to a dirty power source and connect the other to your device. Show me a scope capture of the DC output of each power supply so I can see the substantially increased noise on the output of the power supply connected to the dirty source. Then at least I'll know not to buy that model of power supply because clearly it is poorly designed.

Surely you're not going to pull the audiophool card and claim there are are effects that will influence the equipment being powered that are not measurable with test equipment?
 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #203 on: June 12, 2018, 05:41:11 am »
People who know what they are talking about are usually anxious to ensure that they are being understood by their peers.
Look at any lectures by really smart people like Richard Feynman or Sean Carroll. Those guys don't say "huhhuhuh, you peons are too dim to understand my advanced mind"

Like the well known expression goes, "If you can't explain it to your grandmother, you don't understand it yourself."

The ones who claim that nobody else is smart enough to understand their ideas, while using nonsensical words and phrases to "explain" themselves, are the delusional ones.

 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #204 on: June 12, 2018, 09:48:24 am »
People who know what they are talking about are usually anxious to ensure that they are being understood by their peers.
Look at any lectures by really smart people like Richard Feynman or Sean Carroll. Those guys don't say "huhhuhuh, you peons are too dim to understand my advanced mind"

Like the well known expression goes, "If you can't explain it to your grandmother, you don't understand it yourself."

The ones who claim that nobody else is smart enough to understand their ideas, while using nonsensical words and phrases to "explain" themselves, are the delusional ones.



"Anxious to ensure that they are being understood?" Why would I have anxiety in conveying a concept?

Plus, I do think it is funny that you are comparing this forum to a Richard Feynman audience, which is an interesting comparison re: delusional
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #205 on: June 12, 2018, 09:54:50 am »
Saying that dirty power does not affect computers and related equipment is like saying dirty oil does not affect my engine performance. It is just a bald faced ignorant statement to make.


Bullshit. Oil breaks down over time and the filter becomes filled with physical particles of carbon and wear materials from the engine. A properly designed power supply will filter out any noise that would be typically found on a power line, electrical filters don't become clogged and electricity doesn't wear out over time. If you claim otherwise I'd like to see something to back this up. Take two identical off the shelf computer PSUs, connect one to a dirty power source and connect the other to your device. Show me a scope capture of the DC output of each power supply so I can see the substantially increased noise on the output of the power supply connected to the dirty source. Then at least I'll know not to buy that model of power supply because clearly it is poorly designed.

Surely you're not going to pull the audiophool card and claim there are are effects that will influence the equipment being powered that are not measurable with test equipment?

Actually, it is directly measurable with test equipment. In fact, we encourage clients to put temperature and vibration sensors on transformers and power supplies respectively prior to installation in order to track the delta.

Another great benefit to this technology is going to be a consumer reports for circuit board design. We will be able to identify cheap bullshit electronics through the electrical signature and pattern of electricity consumption.

Regarding audio engineering, more than half an engineers time is spent filtering and cleaning up noise, nearly all of which can be prevented by eliminating harmonics and neutral currents in the power network, thereby allowing the engineer to focus on engineering instead of cleaning.
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #206 on: June 12, 2018, 10:02:34 am »
You know that Industrial UPS actual do this by the virtue of being a generator coupled to an electric motor.
ie all the energy is transferred on the shaft at which point phase will be balanced and most harmonics removed (as effectively very low frequency mechanical filter.
I always wondered about the efficiency of the arrangement but the bank I worked for seem to think its data center was more important that the electricity bills.

This is absurd. In fact, this is directly related to those bullshit "Conversion Losses" that is perpetuated by your ilk.

For some "pedantic" engineers, there is just no critical thought on this area. You are saying that ALL of the energy is transferred to the shaft and then automatically balanced and harmonics removed?!!  Who the fuck is selling the pipe dream? Just naturally balanced and harmonics removed? So they just go away? Go home for dinner?

No.

The point of generation of electricity is when the electricity is at its WORST power quality. The power factor, harmonics and balance across the phases are absolutely and unequivocally their worst. So where do those losses go? I can assure you they do not just disappear.

They go back to the motor. They disrupt the rotation of the shaft. They increase the heat BTU per kWh. They increase the bearing and armature temperature, etc.

The quickest way to evacuate the electricity generated is synchronizing it so it remains electricity and does not destroy the infrastructure.

 
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #207 on: June 12, 2018, 10:05:57 am »
Nanoseconds contribute to the value because when electrical energy forces are properly managed in Real-Time, many of the power quality problems experienced that are seemingly unrelated in today's power networks (like in data center packet error rate, radar system detection, RF signal propogation, etc.) are solved.

Total nonsense! Servers and network elements powered by AC have proper PSUs with active PFC and lot's of line filtering. To cause frame/packet errors the power quality would have to be so bad that the servers and network elements would have much worse problems than bad frames/packets. You also forget that several data centers use telco's classic -48V DC power. And the latest in data center power distribution and efficiency is HVDC.
 

Offline Dubbie

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #208 on: June 12, 2018, 10:10:34 am »
"Anxious to ensure that they are being understood?" Why would I have anxiety in conveying a concept?

You don't seem to care that no-one has any idea what you are talking about. To everyone here, your "tech talk" sounds like meaningless word salad, in the style of Depak Chopra or your friendly neighborhood crystal healer. Clearly your gadget does SOMETHING, just what that is, is unclear to everyone.

The fact that nobody understands you is not even slightly concerning to you?

R
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #209 on: June 12, 2018, 10:12:22 am »
I have been resigned to the fact that I will likely be taken out of context a great deal. Plus I have some word salads that are gems.

Can you explain in quite simple terms how if you look at 2 Amps "at the micro second level" it becomes 2 micro Amps, because I can't!

This highlights something that has been bugging me ever since I first read this:


 :wtf: Injecting and extracting microamps every microsecond.  :wtf:

The WTF's just highlight the arrogance...

If you need to balance a 3 phase system and the current required is just 10A, your system needs to handle anything from -14.14A to +14.14A instantaneous current.

The quantity "current" has no time dimension, neither does the quantity "power" - so any references to current and/or power that supposedly address the large values (that we might normally expect) by extremely short time intervals is complete and utter bullshit.

It is not a reflection on the intelligence of anybody here - it is ignoring a fundamental of the PHYSICS involved.

So, if this is not a complete misdirection, someone really needs to get their terminology sorted out - because what has been happening on this thread has been destructive in the promotion of the product.  You can get away with all sorts of flim flam with the public and even dazzle investors - but when you front up to the engineering bench, you better know how to talk their language.

Remember - when engineers fail, products can fail, jobs can be lost, careers destroyed ... and people can be maimed or killed.  When they are being pedantic, there's usually a very good reason for it.


 :palm:  We are working in real time here. Stay with me.

Once electricity is synchronized, maintaining synchronization requires very little energy, (Remember Newton?) So the amount of current needed to be injected is tiny. The tech has the ability to inject/extract microamps in microseconds, but can inject more as needed. It is in parallel, so there is an endless supply of energy to use.

Also, you are not considering that the power is pulled from the upstream transformer already balanced, so there is not excess energy floating around anywhere, it is zero sum distribution.
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #210 on: June 12, 2018, 10:14:32 am »
Nanoseconds contribute to the value because when electrical energy forces are properly managed in Real-Time, many of the power quality problems experienced that are seemingly unrelated in today's power networks (like in data center packet error rate, radar system detection, RF signal propogation, etc.) are solved.

Total nonsense! Servers and network elements powered by AC have proper PSUs with active PFC and lot's of line filtering. To cause frame/packet errors the power quality would have to be so bad that the servers and network elements would have much worse problems than bad frames/packets. You also forget that several data centers use telco's classic -48V DC power. And the latest in data center power distribution and efficiency is HVDC.

You seem so certain of something that you honestly have no way of knowing. Where does this confidence come from?
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #211 on: June 12, 2018, 10:37:45 am »
From designing, rolling out and operating carrier grade data centers. In case you haven't noticed yet, a lot of the members of this forum are EEs.
 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #212 on: June 12, 2018, 10:50:06 am »
From designing, rolling out and operating carrier grade data centers. In case you haven't noticed yet, a lot of the members of this forum are EEs.

Awesome, so is it the data center designing or the being an EE that precludes you from fact based assertions?

Nobody here has experienced digitally synchronized electricity, yet a barrage of folks are happy claiming that it is "not possible" or "defies physics" etc.

I laugh that you guys think that we could have been doing this for 8 years, with the pedigree of IP development that we have and think it is bullshit. But then again, once you experience it, those wide mouth belly laughs will quickly turn into slack jawed astonishment  :-DD
 
Since I empirically know that the packet error and retransmission rate will decrease, can you experts explain to me why it is impossible? There seems to be a disconnect in your understanding of electrical networks.

I will even point our that harmonic distortion, neutral and ground currents on top of voltage deviation and all levels of transients (PARTICULARLY those induced by power supplies) are the reason for the packet error rate and retransmission rate to begin with.  :box:


 
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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #213 on: June 12, 2018, 10:52:24 am »
And I am perfectly fine discussing voltage.

This technology digitally maintains voltage through the FESS. It is a part of the synchronization.

3DFS Technology can transform voltages with less than 2% loss. We have plans for a Software-Defined Transformer that will further transform the industry.
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Offline Dubbie

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #214 on: June 12, 2018, 10:56:27 am »

 :palm:  We are working in real time here. Stay with me.

Once electricity is synchronized, maintaining synchronization requires very little energy, (Remember Newton?) So the amount of current needed to be injected is tiny.

Earlier you used an example of a rope swing needing just a tiny push at the right time to keep it going. This concept when related to electricity is like a crystal oscillator. It only needs a tiny trickle of power to keep it going. Problem is, AC in the infrastructure sense is more like the rope swing swinging through a tarpit. It needs significant power to keep it moving. Delicate little “microamp currents” will do absolutely nothing. It’s like claiming that you can stop a runaway train car if you tickle it with a feather at *just* the right time.

The only way I could see your claim working was if the microamp current corrections were applied to the input of your fancy ADC’s [emoji23]
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #215 on: June 12, 2018, 11:07:29 am »

 :palm:  We are working in real time here. Stay with me.

Once electricity is synchronized, maintaining synchronization requires very little energy, (Remember Newton?) So the amount of current needed to be injected is tiny.

Earlier you used an example of a rope swing needing just a tiny push at the right time to keep it going. This concept when related to electricity is like a crystal oscillator. It only needs a tiny trickle of power to keep it going. Problem is, AC in the infrastructure sense is more like the rope swing swinging through a tarpit. It needs significant power to keep it moving. Delicate little “microamp currents” will do absolutely nothing. It’s like claiming that you can stop a runaway train car if you tickle it with a feather at *just* the right time.

The only way I could see your claim working was if the microamp current corrections were applied to the input of your fancy ADC’s [emoji23]

 |O  Are you familiar with Kirchoff's Law? Equitable distribution of currents and voltages?

Electricity distribution is most efficient when the laws of math and physics are properly applied. This is what this technology does.

Your suggestion that brute force energy supply is the way it works is a very early 1900's approach to electricity distribution and the reason for all the waste.

It is not about pushing as much power as possible. It is about intelligently supplying power.  :-//

 
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Offline Dubbie

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digital electricity
« Reply #216 on: June 12, 2018, 11:12:44 am »

 |O  Are you familiar with Kirchoff's Law? Equitable distribution of currents and voltages?


Where on earth do you think you are? This is not Facebook. Your arrogance is breathtaking.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 11:22:54 am by Dubbie »
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #217 on: June 12, 2018, 11:21:45 am »

 |O  Are you familiar with Kirchoff's Law? Equitable distribution of currents and voltages?


Where on earth do you think you are? This is not Facebook. You arrogance is breathtaking.

I am simply meeting you guys eye to eye. The arrogance exhibited in this forum is quite exceptional in its own right.

How else can one equitably distribute current? It won't naturally happen. There must be a computing element to leverage this law.

Please explain to me the arrogance of this statement?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 11:26:05 am by cdoerfler »
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #218 on: June 12, 2018, 11:40:53 am »
I will even point our that harmonic distortion, neutral and ground currents on top of voltage deviation and all levels of transients (PARTICULARLY those induced by power supplies) are the reason for the packet error rate and retransmission rate to begin with.  :box:

For -48V DC powered routers, switches and optical transport? There are also huge battery banks for buffering, i.e. actually an online UPS. I think you're doing a disservice to 3DFS the way you are selling the technology. Very basic things like a proper datasheet are missing. This way nobody can take 3DFS seriously.  By keeping on this disastrous marketing there isn't any credibility left. And by insulting people you make it even worse. You might win a discussion, but you'll loose possible customers. Great job!
 

Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #219 on: June 12, 2018, 11:55:39 am »
I will even point our that harmonic distortion, neutral and ground currents on top of voltage deviation and all levels of transients (PARTICULARLY those induced by power supplies) are the reason for the packet error rate and retransmission rate to begin with.  :box:

For -48V DC powered routers, switches and optical transport? There are also huge battery banks for buffering, i.e. actually an online UPS. I think you're doing a disservice to 3DFS the way you are selling the technology. Very basic things like a proper datasheet are missing. This way nobody can take 3DFS seriously.  By keeping on this disastrous marketing there isn't any credibility left. And by insulting people you make it even worse. You might win a discussion, but you'll loose possible customers. Great job!

Customers like results. We deliver that.

If you do not understand the technology, ask questions. Do not reject what I am saying, ask for clarification.

Proper data sheets are not missing, you don't understand them. There is a difference.

It is funny that I can be insulted and am not supposed to insult back, particularly on the "Dodgy Technology" forum.

Right there, where you state that battery banks is a solution to anything other than vandalizing batteries so that the downstream equipment is not destroyed is the problem. You are so rooted in the way things are done that it is clearly difficult for you to consider anything else.

That is not a solution, it is an expensive and temporary patch. Same with UPS. Same with surge protection.

Controlling electricity with digital accuracy in true Real-Time, radically changes what is possible and requires a significant shift in perspective that you have not had yet.
 

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Offline cdoerfler

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #220 on: June 12, 2018, 12:03:32 pm »

 |O  Are you familiar with Kirchoff's Law? Equitable distribution of currents and voltages?


Where on earth do you think you are? This is not Facebook. You arrogance is breathtaking.

I am simply meeting you guys eye to eye. The arrogance exhibited in this forum is quite exceptional in its own right.

How else can one equitably distribute current? It won't naturally happen. There must be a computing element to leverage this law.

Please explain to me the arrogance of this statement?

I really want to highlight this point because it is an important one.

It is impossible for Kirchoff's Law be leveraged in a power network without a computing element. This is where the microamps in microseconds becomes important.

This is a radically different approach to controlling electricity that does not fit what you are familiar with, although firmly fits into the laws of math and physics.





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Offline niladherbert

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #221 on: June 12, 2018, 01:15:29 pm »
Another great benefit to this technology is going to be a consumer reports for circuit board design. We will be able to identify cheap bullshit electronics through the electrical signature and pattern of electricity consumption.
What's the advantage in this? Identifying them doesn't mean that anyone wants to get rid of them.

Quote
Your suggestion that brute force energy supply is the way it works is a very early 1900's approach to electricity distribution and the reason for all the waste.
Don't you dare try to interfere with a very robust and easily repaired system. Electromechanicals are the way to go.

Quote
Proper data sheets are not missing, you don't understand them. There is a difference.
I am only finishing high school, and most data sheets are easily understandable if written by someone who is being honest about their product and understands the product
 
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Online Brumby

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #222 on: June 12, 2018, 01:30:24 pm »
I have been resigned to the fact that I will likely be taken out of context a great deal. Plus I have some word salads that are gems.

Can you explain in quite simple terms how if you look at 2 Amps "at the micro second level" it becomes 2 micro Amps, because I can't!

This highlights something that has been bugging me ever since I first read this:


 :wtf: Injecting and extracting microamps every microsecond.  :wtf:

The WTF's just highlight the arrogance...

If you need to balance a 3 phase system and the current required is just 10A, your system needs to handle anything from -14.14A to +14.14A instantaneous current.

The quantity "current" has no time dimension, neither does the quantity "power" - so any references to current and/or power that supposedly address the large values (that we might normally expect) by extremely short time intervals is complete and utter bullshit.

It is not a reflection on the intelligence of anybody here - it is ignoring a fundamental of the PHYSICS involved.

So, if this is not a complete misdirection, someone really needs to get their terminology sorted out - because what has been happening on this thread has been destructive in the promotion of the product.  You can get away with all sorts of flim flam with the public and even dazzle investors - but when you front up to the engineering bench, you better know how to talk their language.

Remember - when engineers fail, products can fail, jobs can be lost, careers destroyed ... and people can be maimed or killed.  When they are being pedantic, there's usually a very good reason for it.


 :palm:  We are working in real time here. Stay with me.

Once electricity is synchronized, maintaining synchronization requires very little energy, (Remember Newton?) So the amount of current needed to be injected is tiny. The tech has the ability to inject/extract microamps in microseconds, but can inject more as needed. It is in parallel, so there is an endless supply of energy to use.

Also, you are not considering that the power is pulled from the upstream transformer already balanced, so there is not excess energy floating around anywhere, it is zero sum distribution.

Sigh.

I wish you could understand the point being made and address it - and from what I've seen, I'm not the only one.  Unfortunately, it seems patently obvious to me that we are trying to get engineering answers from a marketing person.

It's getting hard to see any value pursuing answers here.
 

Offline Circlotron

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #223 on: June 12, 2018, 02:01:13 pm »
Back in the late 90s myself and a number of others used to get on Usenet on /science/physics/electromagnetics and battle wits with this fellow named Archimedes Plutonium. He would espouse his theory of plutonium atom totality, ie the whole universe was one giant plutonium atom. I can see a strange kind of parallel in the style of arguments presented here.
 
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Offline madires

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Re: digital electricity
« Reply #224 on: June 12, 2018, 02:03:03 pm »
Sadly, I have to agree. We even tried to help him, but he doesn't get it. Smart grid solutions are quite interesting but this thread is just a waste of time.
 


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